DrivaMain Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 The release of Corpus Railjack yet again highlights the fact that defense is one of the most unpopular game mode in the game. The reason for that is defense have the most inefficient reward : time ratio out of all endless missions and “force” the players cheesing with Nukes just so the rotation can last as long as a normal survival mission rotation. Not to mention DE makes newer maps bigger and bigger slowing the pace of the mission. How do we fix this? One small change will make the game mode somewhat more bearable to play. Change the wave length from enemy kills to a timer. There, you just made defense less of a “No nuke, no fun” zone and you don’t have to spend 2 minutes of your time looking for that last grunt stuck in map terrain somewhere. Plus, it would make pure defense setups more relevant in the modern days of Warframe where DPS is king. Another benefit to this change is DE can make maps as large as the entire origin system itself without pissing off the players for "prolonging the grind". How about we take a step further? Disruption was well received because it has one thing that made it very popular and that is a way to speed up the mission. Why not apply that to defense? Let’s say in the defense tile there is a special console that you can interact to call in enemy reinforcements. If you interact with the console the enemies spawns with a random modifier and reduces the wave time by half. It could be : Augmented Armor, Enemy Elemental Resistance, Eximus Horde, Enemy Speed Boost, Boss spawn, etc. And that is the end of my proposal. Please keep discussion civil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Deeceem Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Just two initial random thoughts that popped up right after reading. It irks me a bit is that it sounds like interception with only one point to hold and an option to get through it potentially faster than interception depending on the timers. Could I use hard cc to make all/most enemies a non-threat and then keep pressing the speed up button while the few modified enemies that might be cc immune get taken down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 16 minutes ago, (PSN)Deeceem said: It irks me a bit is that it sounds like interception with only one point to hold and an option to get through it potentially faster than interception depending on the timers. Could I use hard cc to make all/most enemies a non-threat and then keep pressing the speed up button while the few modified enemies that might be cc immune get taken down? Compared to interception, the thing you defend has health values and can be damaged. Well nukes already accomplishes the same thing, so I don't see what's wrong here. The game's balance is broken beyond repair anyway. I doubt DE has the guts to tear it all down and rebuild it from scratch only to get massive resistance from the player base, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Deeceem Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 vor 1 Stunde schrieb DrivaMain: Compared to interception, the thing you defend has health values and can be damaged. Well nukes already accomplishes the same thing, so I don't see what's wrong here. The game's balance is broken beyond repair anyway. I doubt DE has the guts to tear it all down and rebuild it from scratch only to get massive resistance from the player base, Does the hp of the defense target matter in most cases though? That's why it seems like one point interception to me, I guess. I suppose that would make cc as effective as nuke in defense then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddypanda Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 The mode bothers me. If a band of Atlases block every entrance with walls, your objective is well and truly defended. Yet, this is one of the least efficient ways to play defense! Defense is really just exterminate, but you have to wait a lot, and your enemies aren't highlighted. I'd personally be happy if the mode was removed from the game outright, or at least replaced with the version where you defend the arbitration guy and can just move him to a strategic position. The position you hold out in defense is not only the least defendable, it's also the slowest. Moving to a different room will make enemies spawn in closer, more convenient positions and let you move on faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrima Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 How about a bit of both? Your timer idea, maybe a little long, but killing enemies would make it go down faster, even faster if you kill stronger enemies (Noxes, Bursa...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Zrima said: How about a bit of both? Your timer idea, maybe a little long, but killing enemies would make it go down faster, even faster if you kill stronger enemies (Noxes, Bursa...). That will only encourage DPS, which is not the goal of the topic at hand. I am trying to reach a middle ground where CC and DPS can contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsterOfMyOwn Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Defense force you to stay stationnary (same for interception), which is a semi afk mode if you have a good nuke. At least when defense objective is a NPC you have to move but as the NPC tend to be dumb, it's just more frustrating. When defense force you to move (Uranus stephano), it lead to even longer waves, and buggy enemy spawn (which lead to even longer waves). Waves shouldn't last longer than 5min, even without proper nuke frame. Also they should add some difficulty : for example add Demolishers, that would not kill the defense objective but remove a significant amount of health.https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Demolisher These dudes are not easy to kill, and are not immune but resistant to status and frame powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 17 hours ago, DrivaMain said: The release of Corpus Railjack yet again highlights the fact that defense is one of the most unpopular game mode in the game What kind of Defense is it ? Is it regular Star Chart Defense ? Archwing Defense or god forbid... actual Rail Jack Defense 😱 ? Because if it's regular Star Chart Defense then Organized Squads will actually have better Time to Reward Ratio's than a Group of Strangers doing any other mission types.... Specifically when you have a Nova + Mirage.... We used this Combo once to Speed up Arbitration Defense and get more Loot in less Time compared to Excavation and obviously Survival.... Oof... Waiting for timers 😐 !!! 18 hours ago, DrivaMain said: Not to mention DE makes newer maps bigger and bigger slowing the pace of the mission. I noticed this in the Corpus Fleet Rework.... The Defense Tiles of the latest reworks (Gas City, Corpus Fleet, others...maybe) are almost as bad if not worse than the Defense Tiles on Earth... You know the one...we hate that Tile !!! The Gas City Index Tile is also another one.... It's not Defense but it got the same Treatment.... It's larger with more Occluded Paths and Sight lines.... It's almost as if when designing these tiles, DE keeps a picture of Mesa on the Wall with image Crossed out by a big red X..... Serving as a Reminder not to make anything that allows Peacemaker to speed up the Missions.... There's a lot of powerful abilities in this game... even the Peacemaker isn't the most powerful of them... It's definitely the least resource and energy intensive builds to put together.... Hence its early Popularity. 18 hours ago, DrivaMain said: Change the wave length from enemy kills to a timer. I'm not on board with this Idea... I feel implementing this would result in yet another Feedback Thread weeks later stating the issue with Waiting out Timers in Defense.... Remember Scarlet Spear ? I'm of the philosophy that if you are doing something really well... Then it won't take you that long to do it....and I don't want that to go away. Besides.... Wouldn't that Shift the Meta Mapwide Nukes to Map Wide CC's ? From Saryn to Limbo ? 18 hours ago, DrivaMain said: How about we take a step further? Disruption was well received because it has one thing that made it very popular and that is a way to speed up the mission. Why not apply that to defense? Let’s say in the defense tile there is a special console that you can interact to call in enemy reinforcements. If you interact with the console the enemies spawns with a random modifier and reduces the wave time by half. It could be : Augmented Armor, Enemy Elemental Resistance, Eximus Horde, Enemy Speed Boost, Boss spawn, etc. I don't know if this will make Defense more fun but if it's Faster... Then sure.... Il take that.... Granted I have actually been killed by one or two of those Disruption modifiers 😱.... 17 hours ago, (PSN)Deeceem said: Does the hp of the defense target matter in most cases though? That's why it seems like one point interception to me, I guess. I've been in Squads where none of us used an Actual Defense Frame.... As soon as the Nukes start slowing down in the DPS Race due to enemy Scaling the Defense Target can go from completely healthy to Dead in a single wave with the Right combination. 17 hours ago, Zeddypanda said: The mode bothers me. If a band of Atlases block every entrance with walls, your objective is well and truly defended. Yet, this is one of the least efficient ways to play defense! Defense is really just exterminate, but you have to wait a lot, and your enemies aren't highlighted Oh buddy there's more.... If you job is to defend the objective.... Why do you leave it behind when you extract ? I mean we know more enemies are coming so if you leave they're just going to destroy the Objective uncontested after Extraction... The whole thing makes no sense !!! 😱 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 4 hours ago, Lutesque said: From Saryn to Limbo ? Saryn is as brain dead as limbo. I don't see what's wrong here. The latter frame is also used by trolls to slow down defense missions for the rest of the squad. This change will hopefully mitigate that. The goal of this proposal is trying to even out the defense meta and making it less of a nuke zone. 4 hours ago, Lutesque said: I'm not on board with this Idea... I feel implementing this would result in yet another Feedback Thread weeks later stating the issue with Waiting out Timers in Defense.... Remember Scarlet Spear ? The reason why Scarlet Spear is terrible is your performance does not matter. You are relying on other squads to progress. If we say go back in time and change scarlet spear to kill based. Players will complain like today that they have to use nukes to have a reasonable grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddypanda Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 6 hours ago, Lutesque said: What kind of Defense is it ? It's regular defense, on that corpus fleet map with the stairs everywhere. If you somehow know how to make 20 waves of defense faster than 4 extractors, then I'm currently a pair of incredibly big ears. I'll farm whatever meta faceroll gear is needed to see as little of that mission as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 3 hours ago, DrivaMain said: The reason why Scarlet Spear is terrible is your performance does not matter. You are relying on other squads to progress. If we say go back in time and change scarlet spear to kill based. Players will complain like today that they have to use nukes to have a reasonable grind Exactly... It's terrible Either way.... 😱.... Personally I'm simply not onboard with Defense as a whole because it's Anti-Ninja.... When was the last time you ever saw a Ninja Baby Sitting something or Someone ? 😐 43 minutes ago, Zeddypanda said: It's regular defense, on that corpus fleet map with the stairs everywhere. Oh dear god.... Is this the one with the Objective that moves up and down.... That tile is Hella Awful 😱 !!! 45 minutes ago, Zeddypanda said: If you somehow know how to make 20 waves of defense faster than 4 extractors, then I'm currently a pair of incredibly big ears. I'll farm whatever meta faceroll gear is needed to see as little of that mission as possible. On the newer Tiles it's just impossible... Nova can't make those Guys navigate those Stairs and Platforms any Faster and they Spawn from sooooo Far Away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 2021-03-24 at 4:24 PM, Lutesque said: Oh dear god.... Is this the one with the Objective that moves up and down.... That tile is Hella Awful 😱 !!! DE is probably not gonna stop to make newer tilesets bigger and bigger to fully utilize parkour’s 2.0 potential. With that comes the side effect of defense missions getting slower and slower if you don’t have nukes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeaHawk Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Personally I never understood defense mission concept as a whole. Why we are defending some random criopod at the enemy ship and then simply extract leaving it behind to die practically speaking? Why enemies are gently waiting for us to come, before rushing to this criopod? If their goal is to destroy it, why is it initially abandoned on their base/ship at the first place? If our objective is to secure this thing, why then we are just leaving? What is the purpose to keep that criopod surrounded by enemies as long as possible, if we want to extract it? I don't understand. I mean where's logic in all this to begin with? How is it explained lore-wise? I mean what the hell we are doing where? Why enemies are kindly waiting for us? Is this some kind of organized contest between Tenno and enemy troops? I don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 6 hours ago, TeaHawk said: Personally I never understood defense mission concept as a whole. Why we are defending some random criopod at the enemy ship and then simply extract leaving it behind to die practically speaking? Exactly !!! 😮 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CephalonCarnage Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 On 2021-03-26 at 2:07 PM, TeaHawk said: Personally I never understood defense mission concept as a whole. Why we are defending some random criopod at the enemy ship and then simply extract leaving it behind to die practically speaking? All the game missions are silly - think of survival ones, "they're cutting off the air supply" - so what, the warframes can survive in space, as we do in archwing and those infested ship tilesets where the extract is outside the hull. Defection: my approach would always be "you guys stay here, we'll go and kill everything so you have a clear path out", but an infinite number of baddies spawn constantly, from where?! I mean exterminate missions on the same tileset kill as good as all of them. Excavation: why do I need power cores from enemies that just happen to be carrying them about for no reason. etc etc etc. At least with defence the Lotus does say "that's the last of them, the extraction team will handle it from here" - I assume an unarmed transport would turn up and lift the defence pod away. I'm more concerned with how a cryopod just happened to be found right in the middle of a grineer fortress - did nobody notice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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