Revenant Delux. Reconsider. Do not destroy his theme.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Someone’s folklore isn’t Warframes lore. You can’t directly apply the logic of one reality with another.

Sure thing, mate. Let's go with that, because what you just said completely nullifies the entirety of this:

On 2021-07-05 at 7:48 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also the vampires created outside of being turned by other vampires were still turned by something relating to vampires. In the Brame Strokers Dracula movie Vlad drinks the blood coming from a statue. And is subsequently turned into a blood sucking monster. He doesn’t become a unicorn or a dragon. He becomes a vampire. Because vampires drink blood.

There's no longer a pre-established basis for what creates a vampire. Working completely within the Warframe reality, we see that (1) there is a vampire Warframe (Revenant) that (2) became the way he is after Eidolon corruption. Now we know how vampire Warframes can be made in the Warframe universe. Bam boom done, case closed.

5 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

The whole arguement is over whether or not is should have been done. You can’t argue “It did happened and therefor is makes sense for it to happen”.

And you just nullified every bit of ground you have to stand on regarding whether or not it should have happened. All that's left is the lore-establishing fact of "it has been done and this is how it was done, thus that is how it's done". According to the Warframe lore, it makes sense for it to happen. And you can no longer invoke out-of-game lore to counter that, because

5 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You can’t directly apply the logic of one reality with another.

Congratulations, you played yourself.

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m taking from a logical point of view.

you cannot use the subject in question as evidence towards your point of view. It would be like if you’re in court and you say “The defense is guilty because they are currently being tried in court for a crime”.

Yet, that is precisely what you have been doing in regard to Revenant's design for years now...

If you know that such a tact make no logical sense, then why do it?

[SteveCutler]

It seems to me like the Limbo and Revenant skins got mixed up.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Yet, that is precisely what you have been doing in regard to Revenant's design for years now...

If you know that such a tact make no logical sense, then why do it?

No, I’ve been using his development history and logic to argue that him having a vampire theme makes no sense.

The best the opposing side has mustered has been “Anything undead is automatically a vampire”. And that’s just devoid of all logic.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Sure thing, mate. Let's go with that, because what you just said completely nullifies the entirety of this:

There's no longer a pre-established basis for what creates a vampire. Working completely within the Warframe reality, we see that (1) there is a vampire Warframe (Revenant) that (2) became the way he is after Eidolon corruption. Now we know how vampire Warframes can be made in the Warframe universe. Bam boom done, case closed.

And you just nullified every bit of ground you have to stand on regarding whether or not it should have happened. All that's left is the lore-establishing fact of "it has been done and this is how it was done, thus that is how it's done". According to the Warframe lore, it makes sense for it to happen. And you can no longer invoke out-of-game lore to counter that, because

Congratulations, you played yourself.

Ok I am going to try and spell this out for you.

The subject in question: Revenant has a vampire theme.

My argument: Revenant having that vampire theme makes zero sense and was clearly forced on him during development because we all know the person who designed his powers has an unhealthy obsession with vampires. And his visual design is very clearly not vampire related either.

Your argument: Revenant having the vampire theme makes sense.

What you are trying to do is use the Subject in question as evidence to support your argument. When you literally can’t do that if you want to actually create a solid argument. You can’t go “He has a vampire theme so therefor he should have a vampire theme”.

I’ll repeat the same example I gave to Padre. Say you are the prosecution in a court case. You cannot say “The defense is guilty of the crime they are being tried for because they are being tried for the crime”. Because the whole point of the trial is to deduce whether or not they are guilty. Them being on trial is not an immediate indication of their guilty.

And such. Revenant having a vampire theme is not an immediate indication that he should have that theme, or that it makes sense for him to have it.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

My argument: Revenant having that vampire theme makes zero sense and was clearly forced on him during development because we all know the person who designed his powers has an unhealthy obsession with vampires. And his visual design is very clearly not vampire related either.

1. Your argument that Revenant's theme makes zero sense has no grounding because, as you said, "Someone’s folklore isn’t Warframes lore. You can’t directly apply the logic of one reality with another."
2. "Forced" does not mean it doesn't fit, nor that it should be removed.
3. Your argument that Revenant's theme is not vampire related has no grounding. See 1.

In summary, your argument is nullified.

12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Your argument: Revenant having the vampire theme makes sense.

What you are trying to do is use the Subject in question as evidence to support your argument. When you literally can’t do that if you want to actually create a solid argument. You can’t go “He has a vampire theme so therefor he should have a vampire theme”.

I’ll repeat the same example I gave to Padre. Say you are the prosecution in a court case. You cannot say “The defense is guilty of the crime they are being tried for because they are being tried for the crime”. Because the whole point of the trial is to deduce whether or not they are guilty. Them being on trial is not an immediate indication of their guilty.

And such. Revenant having a vampire theme is not an immediate indication that he should have that theme, or that it makes sense for him to have it.

If you can't use the Subject in question as evidence, you cannot argue that Revenant should have an Eidolon theme either. This is obviously stupid. Your court example doesn't correlate either. In the Revenant case, it would translate into you thinking I'm saying "Revenant should have a vampire theme because it's being discussed whether or not they should have that theme." As evident to everybody, that is not my argument.

In summary, you haven't been able to come up with a counterpoint to my argument so you instead choose to continuously misrepresent it and use a counterargument that doesn't make a lick of sense. Needless to say, it doesn't hold up.

 

The motivation for why something "should" have a certain theme in Warframe needs not be much. As little as a word from DE can be sufficient to justify it. Baruuk is a monk and a pacifist, yet his high damage playstyle can hardly justify that. Garuda's name has no connection with her theme whatsoever. She could've been named Odin and it would've made just as much sense. As for Revenant, we have his name, his abilities, word from DE, and his quest to show that he's a vampire. Any one of them would've been justification enough that Revenant "should" have a vampire theme, going by the precedent set by other frames.

In court, precedent is very important. The precedent here shows what's minimally required to motivate a Warframe's theme. Revenant's vampire theme more than meets that standard. You won't be able to put forth any successful argument against the vampire theme unless you manage to radically change how the court works, and that would lead to hilarious amounts of collateral damage. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

1. Your argument that Revenant's theme makes zero sense has no grounding because, as you said, "Someone’s folklore isn’t Warframes lore. You can’t directly apply the logic of one reality with another."
2. "Forced" does not mean it doesn't fit, nor that it should be removed.
3. Your argument that Revenant's theme is not vampire related has no grounding. See 1.

In summary, your argument is nullified.

If you can't use the Subject in question as evidence, you cannot argue that Revenant should have an Eidolon theme either. This is obviously stupid. Your court example doesn't correlate either. In the Revenant case, it would translate into you thinking I'm saying "Revenant should have a vampire theme because it's being discussed whether or not they should have that theme." As evident to everybody, that is not my argument.

In summary, you haven't been able to come up with a counterpoint to my argument so you instead choose to continuously misrepresent it and use a counterargument that doesn't make a lick of sense. Needless to say, it doesn't hold up.

 

The motivation for why something "should" have a certain theme in Warframe needs not be much. As little as a word from DE can be sufficient to justify it. Baruuk is a monk and a pacifist, yet his high damage playstyle can hardly justify that. Garuda's name has no connection with her theme whatsoever. She could've been named Odin and it would've made just as much sense. As for Revenant, we have his name, his abilities, word from DE, and his quest to show that he's a vampire. Any one of them would've been justification enough that Revenant "should" have a vampire theme, going by the precedent set by other frames.

In court, precedent is very important. The precedent here shows what's minimally required to motivate a Warframe's theme. Revenant's vampire theme more than meets that standard. You won't be able to put forth any successful argument against the vampire theme unless you manage to radically change how the court works, and that would lead to hilarious amounts of collateral damage. 

1. IDK how my counter argument to yours invalidates my argument?

2. Forced implies that it was put there unnaturally and it’s more than obvious right now that the vampire theme isn’t doing Revenant any favors.

3. My argument is that he shouldn’t have a vampire theme.

In summary. You disagreeing with my arguments does not invalidate them. You must provide evidence that contradicts them. And you can’t shift what my arguments are saying in order to fit whatever “evidence” you dig up.

Revenants Eidolon theme is not the subject in question here. Not to mention there is far FAR more in game evidence that supports his eidolon theme than his vampire theme.

My court example is very accurate to this argument. I have a counterpoint. And it’s that you trying to use the Subject in question as supporting evidence to your argument invalidates your argument.

There’s statements on Baruuk that state that he his primarily a pacifist (hence why 3/4 of his kit are non-aggressive abilities) but he has a hidden destructive power in him that he’s reluctant to use. He was called a “reluctant hero” at times even by the Scott. Also his 4 was garbage when he first released, and it was only really good for pushing enemies around. I already stated why holding Warframes names up against their theme is risky. Because sometimes it’s a reflection of their theme. Sometimes, in Garudas case, it’s a reflection of her appearence. With her arm claws looking like the wings of a bird. So naming her something as random as “Odin” wouldn’t fit.

Except you haven’t provided a lick of evidence to support your argument that his vampire theme makes sense on him. Your only argument is the folklore stuff. And that requires using the Subject in question as supporting evidence to it. Which completely invalidates that argument. And if we really want to get specific. Revenants vampire powers are inspired by the Bram Stroker’s “Dracula” style of vampire. So if you’re going to pull from the “vampire origins” table then your gonna have to pull from that specific kind of vampire.

So right now I’d highly recommend either just giving up or finding a different angle to target this from.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

1. IDK how my counter argument to yours invalidates my argument?

Because your argument builds on something your counter argument invalidates.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

2. Forced implies that it was put there unnaturally and it’s more than obvious right now that the vampire theme isn’t doing Revenant any favors.

That's your personal opinion.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

3. My argument is that he shouldn’t have a vampire theme.

Your argument is invalidated by your counter argument.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

In summary. You disagreeing with my arguments does not invalidate them. You must provide evidence that contradicts them. And you can’t shift what my arguments are saying in order to fit whatever “evidence” you dig up.

No need to contradict your invalidated argument, because it's invalidated.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Revenants Eidolon theme is not the subject in question here. Not to mention there is far FAR more in game evidence that supports his eidolon theme than his vampire theme.

Not according to your own standards, you can't. Because that would result in you

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

My court example is very accurate to this argument. I have a counterpoint. And it’s that you trying to use the Subject in question as supporting evidence to your argument invalidates your argument.

Not according to the precedent set by this court. My argument stands based on the precedent.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

There’s statements on Baruuk that state that he his primarily a pacifist (hence why 3/4 of his kit are non-aggressive abilities) but he has a hidden destructive power in him that he’s reluctant to use. He was called a “reluctant hero” at times even by the Scott. Also his 4 was garbage when he first released, and it was only really good for pushing enemies around.

His kit actively seeks to enable his aggression. That makes him not a pacifist.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Sometimes, in Garudas case, it’s a reflection of her appearence. With her arm claws looking like the wings of a bird. So naming her something as random as “Odin” wouldn’t fit.

Claws don't go on the wings, mate. Odin fits better because he had birds that would perch on him. Claws on arms, right there.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Except you haven’t provided a lick of evidence to support your argument that his vampire theme makes sense on him.

You actively ignoring my evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Your only argument is the folklore stuff. And that requires using the Subject in question as supporting evidence to it. Which completely invalidates that argument.

It isn't, and it's fallacious of you to misrepresent me like that.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And if we really want to get specific. Revenants vampire powers are inspired by the Bram Stroker’s “Dracula” style of vampire. So if you’re going to pull from the “vampire origins” table then your gonna have to pull from that specific kind of vampire.

Except you cannot limit it to any specific kind of vampire at all, because:

On 2021-07-06 at 4:29 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Someone’s folklore isn’t Warframes lore. You can’t directly apply the logic of one reality with another.

You cannot even limit it to folklore outside of Warframe at all.

My argument is based upon existing precedent for what motivates why a Warframe "should" have a theme.

7 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The motivation for why something "should" have a certain theme in Warframe needs not be much. As little as a word from DE can be sufficient to justify it. Baruuk is a monk and a pacifist, yet his high damage playstyle can hardly justify that. Garuda's name has no connection with her theme whatsoever. She could've been named Odin and it would've made just as much sense. As for Revenant, we have his name, his abilities, word from DE, and his quest to show that he's a vampire. Any one of them would've been justification enough that Revenant "should" have a vampire theme, going by the precedent set by other frames.

In court, precedent is very important. The precedent here shows what's minimally required to motivate a Warframe's theme. Revenant's vampire theme more than meets that standard. You won't be able to put forth any successful argument against the vampire theme unless you manage to radically change how the court works, and that would lead to hilarious amounts of collateral damage. 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So right now I’d highly recommend either just giving up or finding a different angle to target this from.

If you wanna bail out due to not being able to counter my argument, you're free to do so. I'll be here until then.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

If I recall correctly, the official Revenant deluxe has been around since at least January; it's a little too late to be asking them not to go forward with it now. 

Although, I do agree, that fan concept looks far better than what we're getting. I feel as though this is just another case of the devs pushing a specific theme or mechanic, simply because it looks good/seems good, but doesn't match the overall aesthetic of the game.

[NovusNova]

Thread has derailed into off topic arguments.

Closing.