Update 31.1.0: Echoes of War

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

30 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It should be mentioned that reliable damage reduction is the realistic measure of it, which means that Ember's functional DR is 50% due to obligatory resetting or else energy haemorrhage, Mirage's UI says 95% but still doesn't actually give that even if in a 'darker half' area, and Baruuk and Trinity are semi-reliable wiggle depending on ancillary conditions like current Restraint value and if everything in Link range got obliterated at once. The latter are probably the best example cases - sustainable conditionals in just-different-enough ways.

Eh, if we're to argue Ember's like that, considering the moment it's at its lowest as the reliable, any and all non-renewable DRs have a functional DR of zero. Under those measurements, Iron Skin counts as functionally 0% DR, which feels weird to me personally. This is all a bit of a derailment though, as it was explicitly the cap I was giving as an example of "homogenization" not causing all abilities to become the same, which what you've written actually supports.

39 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

^{And then there's Mesa, being a cut above, being forgettably reliable, all while she's got the seeming archetype of a glass cannon going on elsewise. Nope, better give her Best Defense too.}

^{Yeah, why Mesa of all frames gets to have more DR than tanks baffles me, too.}

[TheLexiConArtist]

15 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Eh, if we're to argue Ember's like that, considering the moment it's at its lowest as the reliable, any and all non-renewable DRs have a functional DR of zero. Under those measurements, Iron Skin counts as functionally 0% DR, which feels weird to me personally. This is all a bit of a derailment though, as it was explicitly the cap I was giving as an example of "homogenization" not causing all abilities to become the same, which what you've written actually supports.

The everyday non-renewable at least has a predictable duration you can work around, or in the case of something like a Skin, the moment you recast it (probably upon hearing your shieldgate go off) is a return to 100% efficacy, whereas Mirage's changing more or less arbitrarily depending on what tile and where you're moving through, and Ember is actively prevented from staying at that full DR, having to constantly lower the rating or fully reset and start to build up from 50% again because her latest de-work gave her just enough rope to hang herself.

Gauss is somewhere in the middle, because with Redline you have a positive interaction with the cap of Kinetic Barrier - you can get it locked in at supermax (full immunity) for a while, and while it wants movement to upkeep, it's designed such that you can naturally keep it at the high end of its non-ulted efficacy rather than venting to 0 every time.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

47 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The everyday non-renewable at least has a predictable duration you can work around, or in the case of something like a Skin, the moment you recast it (probably upon hearing your shieldgate go off) is a return to 100% efficacy, whereas Mirage's changing more or less arbitrarily depending on what tile and where you're moving through, and Ember is actively prevented from staying at that full DR, having to constantly lower the rating or fully reset and start to build up from 50% again because her latest de-work gave her just enough rope to hang herself.

Any non-renewable DR is also actively prevented from staying at that full DR. That includes Iron Skin unless you run the 4 augment. (BTW, shields won't consistently save your life as Rhino - Toxin attacks go straight for the HP. That's what makes Iron Skin, under your conditions, unreliable.) Also, Immolation effectively has a predictable duration as well, as both the DR increase and the energy drain are predictable. Also, you can work around that duration.

(Edit: Oh, and I just double-checked. Ember's functional DR, per your condition, is 70%, not 50%. Fire Blast drains 50% of the meter, taking you to the halfway point between 90% and 50%.)

47 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Gauss is somewhere in the middle, because with Redline you have a positive interaction with the cap of Kinetic Barrier - you can get it locked in at supermax (full immunity) for a while, and while it wants movement to upkeep, it's designed such that you can naturally keep it at the high end of its non-ulted efficacy rather than venting to 0 every time.

Also, Kinetic Barrier's DR cap outside of Redline is 90%, once again consistent with my point.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Perfectly_Framed_Waifu

[-AncientWarrior-]

23 hours ago, AngelOfReprisal said:

Has anyone else noticed the microstutters even while in solo mode after the update? The game has suddenly become borderline unplayable.

Yes this .. i thought it was my system, ran speed checks all good, DE are you compressing graphic files that have to open and close?  Thats what it feels like to me now.

[Azimbee]

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

-snip-

In short, I don't see how your counter-arguments hold any water here. The changes I propose would bring Frost up to a level on par with other frames balance-wise while still keeping, and even strengthening, his identity.

I wasn't aware this was an argument, particularly one where the goal was to persuade the other. Human reason is at its strongest when discussion refines and reinforces any ideas others already have. Very often people do not walk away convinced by what the other person is trying to persuade them of, and instead are prompted by the other to grow the ideas they walked into the conversation with, rather than making radical changes in their own views.

This is particularly effective since a collective of individuals do not innately know what the best solutions and ideas are, so each individual being tasked to find support for the one view they latch onto and being prompted to strengthen it by opposition query allows for a broad net to be cast by the collective.

At some point, good ideas are found by one of these ideas reaching their logical conclusion at which they cannot be taken further yet, and if any one out of dozens of these ideas have merit, they end up being very successful. Truthfully, all ideas try to grow, and they spread, and sprawl, until they cannot anymore. The most successful ones people stumble on are the ones that grow the fastest and reach the most minds in some shape or form, as individuals pick and choose what they want to take away from other's toils to amalgam for themselves.

Lift Together, but for ideas.

Knowing this, I'm not really trying to convince you. I like talking about warframe, sometimes even for the sake of it and can generate massive text walls as I lost track of the time, and how much I've posted if I don't actively exercise restraint. I have a lot of ideas to share. Not all of them are good, but I don't mind sharing my ideas even if they might not be so strong. Someone else can make them stronger if they are not. Such as someone watching this conversation, including you. You have good ideas.

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

While I could definitely argue against this niche, what with Freeze having no moddable range and this intricate setup being overshadowed by just firing a Bramma arrow or something, I'll leave it at the fact that what I propose has not included removing the 600% status chance from the ability, meaning that all of this is very much possible in my idea. Plus that the ability has a usage outside of a niche.

I don't think it's particularly intricate. A single Kitgun Arcane and Warframe Arcane accomplishes it, with a gas modding on the kitgun. One thing it has over the Bramma is that you can't get Viral Freeze with a Bramma and Bramma can't run Viral and Gas at the same time. In the context of opportunity cost, what this set up lacks in raw values it makes up for in mod space. Namely a whole weapon or companion.

You can get Gas Viral with a Panzer Vulpaphyla! That's 2 loadout slots, if you exclude Frost. A gun and a companion in this case. Though for people that want to run something other than Panzer, they wouldn't be able to do this with the Bramma without dedicating a Pistol to it, or running another frame. Frost being able to provide that much viral for his weapon is very unique, and only works with a Kitgun. I think that's cool though! While Freeze's aoe can't be affected by Power Range, a 6 meter diameter is moderately fair for a 25 energy cost ability. I'm perfectly fine with it being upped or scaling with range though!

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Giving that rework to Ice Wave rather than Freeze would just make it ten times more redundant apart from that highly specific niche you mentioned. Instead, giving Freeze and AoE freeze while letting Ice Wave do bonus damage vs. frozen targets would do the opposite of homogenizing it with Rest and Sleep Arrow. (Also, if we don't want abilities to be like one another, we should by that logic not allow Ice Wave to freeze, because Petrify exists. Oh, and we should by that logic remove the freeze effect from Avalanche, Atlas also has a 4 which AoE "freezes".)

I don't think I want the opposite extreme of completely avoiding copying other things either. I'm not sure if I made it clear I didn't want it, so I suppose that's my fault. Surely, it's reasonable to want some uniqueness while minimizing homogenization of strengths and weaknesses. 

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

On the other hand, balance all too often just happens to be "homogenization". Let's look at some examples of damage reduction caps. Baruuk: 97%. Ember: 90%. Gara: 90%. Mesa: 95%. Mirage: 95%. Nekros: 90%. Nezha: 90%. Nidus: 90%. Trinity: 93.75%. In short, when you sum up a frame's damage reduction, chances are it's in the 90-95% ballpark, often exactly 90% or 95%. Still, these are very much different abilities from one another. There's homogenization, but they're still fresh and interesting. Gara's performs like a deathball, Mirage has to choose between DR and damage boost, Nekros' relies on keeping shadows alive. In the same manner, giving Snow Globe Strength-scaling damage absorption wouldn't sterilize the game any more than Iron Skin and Warding Halo sterilize one another - and they don't.

Sterilization of gameplay and flavor via homogenization isn't obvious when comparing two things directly to each other. It's a sum total of all the parts. In particular, with Iron Skin and Warding Halo, yes they are unique, but a good Warding Halo mod optimization and Iron Skin are very nearly identical; Much the same mods run beat for beat. Armor and Power Strength together, if you're feeling spicy maybe Health and Power Conversion. But... notice how you don't really have to think about that too much. A better example of what I mean is to compare damage reduction from Warding Halo to Null Star. They do similar things too, but demand more awareness of nuance.

My problem is of optimal builds for guns all looking the same. I don't know if anyone, even content creators, enjoy the fact that most builds are just carbon copies of eachother.  New emergent properties cease to arise if you do the same thing over and over. I think people really really liked Gauss' buffs bonuses scaling with Duration, as we hadn't seen something like that since Toxin Chroma and Null Star if my memory serves right. Those had some pretty unique implications on Gauss building, as the only ability at that point that minded, err... Narrowminded... range was Thermal Sunder until Mach Rush gots its augment and now Thermal Sunder got its augment. It's a really nice augment too because it can potentially change the considerations for how you mod Gauss since before you only needed Duration for massive buffs.

This is actually why my current fixation are the Demulcent Arcanes and Helminth. I struggle with enjoying things in general, it's a personal issue, but whenever something fundamentally changes things and shakes things up - that excites me to no end. I thrive off novelty and maybe a little bit of unhealthy obsession.

We currently do not have a survival and point-defense hybrid skill whos numerical values relating to its defense scale with duration. I mean... unless you count Cataclysmic Continuum? That's something that'd have interesting ramifications if it were applied to Snowglobe.

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Ah, nice. Then let's remove duration scaling from Frost as well, so that, by the same logic, you can take advantage of Fleeting Expertise without its downside. Oh wait, let's make his abilities unaffected by efficiency as well, so that Blind Rage becomes better. All things summarized, following this logic, we have a Frost whose abilities doesn't scale with Strength, Duration, Range, or Efficiency, all to let him take advantage of other mods! Ya see the problem here?

I think this both a little bit condescending in addition to being a bit of a strawman. It is ridiculous to make a frame who has abilities that do not scale with with all 4 ability stats on the same ability, though I don't think I said that nor has anyone. Actually, I don't even think Efficiency was even mentioned yet...

I do get what you're getting at. If we take ability stat exclusion to its logical extreme that's ultimately where we wind up. Though, done intelligently it's actually really cool. An ability ignoring a stat and another ignoring a different one can be really interesting if done with deliberation and in consideration of what mods can be used to spec into both. Anti-synergy with non-scaling can end really poorly. But done intelligently it can solve some anti synergies. Off the top of my head we have Baruuk's Elude and Desolate Hands. Good meme right? Raising Range lets Elude protect you from all damage, but it conflicts with the fact that Range makes Desolate Hands decay in damage reduction faster, similar to Null Star. Yet, if instead Desolate Hands could have its range capped you could, at a certain point, reap the rewards of Elude and Desolate Hands at the same time, and run a range build.

Things like Spore being a toggle without a drain, technically being an ability that ignores duration completely ends up being really good in the context of Saryn's kit. Nova's Antimatter Drop also doesn't scale with Range, it has a fixed range, but it's rather generous. It becomes a workable nuke in the context of Nova's build because they do want Narrowminded for Molecular Prime. I love stuff like this and it gives me life when I don't have the see the exact same mods being optimal everywhere. I imagine some people might feel similarly?

Speaking of...
 

On 2022-02-09 at 9:59 AM, [DE]Megan said:

Update 31.1.0: Echoes of War

• Fixed crashes and excessive performance hitches when Grendel consumed an exorbitant amount of enemies and proceeded to vomit them out (90+ enemies). In the name of performance, we’ve added a limit of 40 enemies that can be eaten by Grendel at any given time, and spread out the vomiting of large numbers of enemies.

  • Test Cluster crash report/fix.

  • This fix didn't make the build and will be coming in a Hotfix.

 

I love a LOT of the changes this update, and I'm super excited to play with a lot of upcoming changes. But please, I'm begging and praying, do not put a hard cap on the number of enemies Grendel can eat. There just has to be a much cooler alternative. Why not limit the number of enemies Grendel can vomit at once instead? A sequential vomiting of groups of enemies without changing the damage they take from the *total* enemies being vomited in that sequence could fix this without adding a cap. It'd also be kinda funny.

It'd be kinda like being a messy eater visually...

It'd also have some synergy with Gloom if Grendel is allowed to eat enemies as this happens, as presently the damage dealt by 'digesting' enemies does not contribute to Helminth Gloom life steal. Hitting enemies vomited with Gas+Electric Status before the next ones come out would allow for some AoE stacking for the enemies coming up last from that gullet gut.

I can't be the only one that feels this way, right? :'(

Edited February 11, 2022 by Azimbee

[Sev1107]

On 2022-02-09 at 7:59 AM, [DE]Megan said:

NEW WARFRAME AUGMENTS

Frost: Biting Frost: Passive

Frost gains 200% Critical Chance and 200% Critical Damage against frozen enemies.

Can we talk about how this is only useful if you cast his Avalanche or his single target Freeze ability? When are we gonna see some love for Cold damage and by extension Frost? Can we freeze enemies eventually with enough stacks? Can we get it to shatter armor or decay the armor or something more than "Slow"?

Please for the love of this game make Cold damage do something more than be one half of Viral damage.

[Azimbee]

13 minutes ago, Sev1107 said:

Can we talk about how this is only useful if you cast his Avalanche or his single target Freeze ability? When are we gonna see some love for Cold damage and by extension Frost? Can we freeze enemies eventually with enough stacks? Can we get it to shatter armor or decay the armor or something more than "Slow"?

Please for the love of this game make Cold damage do something more than be one half of Viral damage.

Snowglobe can Freeze. It freezes any freezeable enemy within range and yeets them radially on cast, and if they collide with a wall, they take 50% Max Health as true damage. The only ability that doesn't freeze is Ice Wave.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Azimbee

[Sev1107]

Just now, Azimbee said:

Snowglobe can Freeze.

You are correct, but that requires the use of yet another augment or enemies already in your bubble field, which let's be honest is a cheap panic button if they are messing with you inside your bubble. And if the augment did an increasing chance or chance per second while enemies were in the bubble, might be passable.

However the main point stands, Cold damage is neigh useless alone.

[Azimbee]

14 minutes ago, Sev1107 said:

You are correct, but that requires the use of yet another augment or enemies already in your bubble field, which let's be honest is a cheap panic button if they are messing with you inside your bubble. And if the augment did an increasing chance or chance per second while enemies were in the bubble, might be passable.

However the main point stands, Cold damage is neigh useless alone.

It does not need an augment. Unaugmented Snowglobe freezes on demand all enemies in range when you cast it. It does not freeze beyond the initial cast without an augment. The Augment freezes enemies that walk in after cast with 50% chance.

Edit: You can have more than one snowglobe out. Just leave it, and freeze some enemies with a different globe. Doesn't have to be a panic button. Snowglobe as a DPS works all the way to level cap with status support, more or less snowplowing enemies to death for one-shots. However, without status effects to boost its scaling true damage, it's a viable way to freeze enemies for cheap compared to avalanche.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Azimbee
Clarification and Grammar

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

23 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

-snip-

Feel free to think what you will. I'm not here to convince you either. If you wanna run Gas/Viral kitguns, then you do you, mate. I'm just pointing out to the general public that what you're describing is very niche, not remarkably powerful, and thus all in all not a convincing argument for why Freeze would supposedly be any good.

26 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

Surely, it's reasonable to want some uniqueness while minimizing homogenization of strengths and weaknesses. 

Indeed, and that's exactly what you still get if you give Strength scaling to Snow Globe's damage absorption and if you give Freeze and AoE freeze. After all...

27 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

Sterilization of gameplay and flavor via homogenization isn't obvious when comparing two things directly to each other. It's a sum total of all the parts.

... and that's exactly the case with what I propose for Snow Globe and Freeze.

30 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

We currently do not have a survival and point-defense hybrid skill whos numerical values relating to its defense scale with duration. I mean... unless you count Cataclysmic Continuum? That's something that'd have interesting ramifications if it were applied to Snowglobe.

That's because in all but the very odd circumstance, Strength makes things stronger, Duration gives things more duration, Range gives things more range, and Efficiency makes things more energy efficient. Making Snow Globe's health scale off Duration rather than Strength would be more weird than interesting.

38 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

I do get what you're getting at. If we take ability stat exclusion to its logical extreme that's ultimately where we wind up. Though, done intelligently it's actually really cool. An ability ignoring a stat and another ignoring a different one can be really interesting if done with deliberation and in consideration of what mods can be used to spec into both. Anti-synergy with non-scaling can end really poorly. But done intelligently it can solve some anti synergies. Off the top of my head we have Baruuk's Elude and Desolate Hands. Good meme right? Raising Range lets Elude protect you from all damage, but it conflicts with the fact that Range makes Desolate Hands decay in damage reduction faster, similar to Null Star. Yet, if instead Desolate Hands could have its range capped you could, at a certain point, reap the rewards of Elude and Desolate Hands at the same time, and run a range build.

But if you capped the range, you'd be limiting Desolate Hands as a disarm ability. And that's the thing here - you seem to look at an unmoddable ability and think "oh good, I don't need to worry about modding it to its detriment" whereas I look at it and think "oh no, I can't mod it to its benefit". When you make stat-ignoring abilities, you limit what the player can do with them, and in that regard, Frost is nearly as bad as Yareli - both have an ability that ignores Range, both have an ability that ignores Duration, both have an ability that ignores Duration and effectively ignores Strength (with Yareli's also ignoring Range). Is it good design when it feels like a waste to put Ability stat mods on a frame, because only half of their kit actually uses that stat, meaning those mods are just dead weight for the rest? Hardly.

53 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

I love stuff like this and it gives me life when I don't have the see the exact same mods being optimal everywhere. I imagine some people might feel similarly?

There's a certain irony in you saying that right after using "Narrow Minded" and "Molecular Prime" in the same sentence. Anyway, let's start making weapons that don't accept Multishot mods and see how that goes...

56 minutes ago, Azimbee said:

But please, I'm begging and praying, do not put a hard cap on the number of enemies Grendel can eat.

Wait, weren't you in favor of capping stuff? After all, capping the number of enemies Grendel can eat means players won't need to invest as many mods to get the maximum out of it, opening up more build variation, right? /s

[Azimbee]

54 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Feel free to think what you will. I'm not here to convince you either. If you wanna run Gas/Viral kitguns, then you do you, mate. I'm just pointing out to the general public that what you're describing is very niche, not remarkably powerful, and thus all in all not a convincing argument for why Freeze would supposedly be any good.

Considering the rest of Frost's Kit, he can 1 shot to level cap with Snowglobe any freezeable enemy. Making Freeze deal 6 stacks of Viral actually sets most enemies up for Snowglobe to 1 shot. Having it sustain the Kitgun's own Viremia radius' is more of a seamless way to refresh that buff and continue to plow away. You can do that with just a Viral AoE weapon, or a Panzer Vulpy, but doing it this way frees up your companion slot for something you might prefer.

54 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

... and that's exactly the case with what I propose for Snow Globe and Freeze.

Making 1 Freeze in an AoE doesn't actually make Frost that much stronger, because freezing enemies at a distance doesn't actually improve Frost's damage and cc efficacy all that much. It would see meaningful improvement if you run it alongside Biting Frost, but not on its own. Actually, both your suggestion for it to AoE Freeze and Biting Frost run into a similar issue and don't actually complement each other.

Anything Frost can Freeze, Frost can Yeet with a Snowglobe to kill all the way to level cap. Unless this is changed, I don't really see a need to give Frost more Freeze on his... Freeze(?) The only thing Globe Nuking can't solve is Unfreezeables, which wouldn't be affected by Freeze's err... Freeze.... Which are also enemies that would be unaffected by Biting Frost. But a lot of those same enemies are affected by the cold stacks, or the viral stacks with Demulcent in that same AoE. Cold and Viral Status can't be stopped by Demolyst pulses clearing them of ability debuffs.
 

1 hour ago, Sev1107 said:

However, the main point stands, Cold damage is neigh useless alone.

Damage, perhaps, but the status is pretty pog.

54 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

There's a certain irony in you saying that right after using "Narrow Minded" and "Molecular Prime" in the same sentence. Anyway, let's start making weapons that don't accept Multishot mods and see how that goes...

Like Javlok's Speargun Throw? Yeah, I unironically liked that. Wish we got more of that kind of stuff. It makes Magazine size a multiplier since it excludes multishot and uses that instead. Really neat!

Or do you mean melee? That didn't scale with Multishot. Did just fine since it has other, powerful, multipliers.

54 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

But if you capped the range, you'd be limiting Desolate Hands as a disarm ability. And that's the thing here - you seem to look at an unmoddable ability and think "oh good, I don't need to worry about modding it to its detriment" whereas I look at it and think "oh no, I can't mod it to its benefit". When you make stat-ignoring abilities, you limit what the player can do with them, and in that regard, Frost is nearly as bad as Yareli - both have an ability that ignores Range, both have an ability that ignores Duration, both have an ability that ignores Duration and effectively ignores Strength (with Yareli's also ignoring Range). Is it good design when it feels like a waste to put Ability stat mods on a frame, because only half of their kit actually uses that stat, meaning those mods are just dead weight for the rest? Hardly.

I don't think that, well, not just that. Both can be true at once, you can have an ability that can't be modded to its detriment and only modded for its benefit. Like a reverse situation of Subsumed Fire Blast. We need more stuff like that. Things that have floors of how low it can go, like Volt's Discharge stun duration. Desolate hands also wouldn't be limited as a disarm ability, if the AoE damage when they hit could also disarm and did scale with range, allowing for multiple targets at once to be disarmed in a fixed radius.  Currently Desolate Hand struggles to disarm because it disarms one enemy at a time, and its rate of disarm is rather slow. You end up getting more value keeping the Daggers than trading a % of damage reduction for 1 enemy disarmed out of many. 

If it could disarm multiple at once, it'd be amazing, even with fixed ranges. Well, assuming they're generous enough in that fixed range. Something like between 15-30 meter on where the daggers can reach, and a scaling range AoE disarm where the daggers hit. This is because Disarm pairs very favorably with friendly fire, due to how melee AI works. It's very strong, so much so that compromising to be able to have it works out pretty nicely. Usually. You do need to disarm a large number of enemies at once to gain immediate value from it. Being able to use Elude and Desolate Hands in this way would also make good use of the range-double coding it has. Since you can use Elude to turn Desolate Hands from Defense, to a damage multiplier with Radiation. 

54 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Wait, weren't you in favor of capping stuff? After all, capping the number of enemies Grendel can eat means players won't need to invest as many mods to get the maximum out of it, opening up more build variation, right? /s

To be fair to me, I suggested the cap be moved to how many enemies can be expelled at once instead. It solves the intended problem involving performance. If you asked me what kind of cap I would introduce to Feast, it'd probably be actually be to do that to Feast's expel in general. Instead of expelling all enemies at once, you fire a shotgun of them while retaining some in your belly. Regurgitate being that would be nice, but it seems Feast's eject is the shotgun attack at the moment. This would allow for Grendel to have much more control over who stays and leaves his guts, to manage energy economy (or health economy augmented) and avoid damage leaking when using the shotgun as an attack. Being able to chunk release enemies would on paper cap the damage ceiling on the attack, but would allow for much more complex set ups involving small groups of enemies set up in sequence. Such as using them to scale electric chain procs to finish off enemies that damage doesn't finish off.

54 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Indeed, and that's exactly what you still get if you give Strength scaling to Snow Globe's damage absorption and if you give Freeze and AoE freeze. After all...

54 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

That's because in all but the very odd circumstance, Strength makes things stronger, Duration gives things more duration, Range gives things more range, and Efficiency makes things more energy efficient. Making Snow Globe's health scale off Duration rather than Strength would be more weird than interesting.

Hmmm.... Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not weird at all because...

14 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

You're forgetting the downside of the current system, though. In higher levels, given a constant rate of fire, each Snow Globe cast will have an unmoddable duration of 8.X seconds - 4 seconds of damage absorption and 4 seconds of the HP depleting just as fast. Sure, you can stack it to the skies and beyond, but the time taken to stack it will always be 0.Xs short of equal to the time it takes for the Globe to be destroyed again. Did you know Frost can have up to 4 Snow Globes active at once? Well, good luck trying to keep all four alive if each one of them goes down in 8.X unmoddable seconds.

... It would increase the 'Duration' the globe stays out. So what if you could?

Edit: I think I'm derailing the thread though, so I'll just practice some restraint now. Sorry for disruption.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Azimbee

[Rhettorical]

I'm not a big fan of the square arsenal icons. It'll take a lot of getting used to, but right now they seem a bit too small. If they were scaled up, it might look better.

[Vorastra]

Will the new Plains of Eidolon be improved? The New War release made that map, for the first time, unable to consistently maintain 60fps on a GTX1060 for no discernible improvement in visuals.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

6 hours ago, Azimbee said:

I wasn't aware this was an argument, particularly one where the goal was to persuade the other. Human reason is at its strongest when discussion refines and reinforces any ideas others already have. Very often people do not walk away convinced by what the other person is trying to persuade them of, and instead are prompted by the other to grow the ideas they walked into the conversation with, rather than making radical changes in their own views.

This is particularly effective since a collective of individuals do not innately know what the best solutions and ideas are, so each individual being tasked to find support for the one view they latch onto and being prompted to strengthen it by opposition query allows for a broad net to be cast by the collective.

At some point, good ideas are found by one of these ideas reaching their logical conclusion at which they cannot be taken further yet, and if any one out of dozens of these ideas have merit, they end up being very successful. Truthfully, all ideas try to grow, and they spread, and sprawl, until they cannot anymore. The most successful ones people stumble on are the ones that grow the fastest and reach the most minds in some shape or form, as individuals pick and choose what they want to take away from other's toils to amalgam for themselves.

Lift Together, but for ideas.

Knowing this, I'm not really trying to convince you. I like talking about warframe, sometimes even for the sake of it and can generate massive text walls as I lost track of the time, and how much I've posted if I don't actively exercise restraint. I have a lot of ideas to share. Not all of them are good, but I don't mind sharing my ideas even if they might not be so strong. Someone else can make them stronger if they are not. Such as someone watching this conversation, including you. You have good ideas.

I don't think it's particularly intricate. A single Kitgun Arcane and Warframe Arcane accomplishes it, with a gas modding on the kitgun. One thing it has over the Bramma is that you can't get Viral Freeze with a Bramma and Bramma can't run Viral and Gas at the same time. In the context of opportunity cost, what this set up lacks in raw values it makes up for in mod space. Namely a whole weapon or companion.

You can get Gas Viral with a Panzer Vulpaphyla! That's 2 loadout slots, if you exclude Frost. A gun and a companion in this case. Though for people that want to run something other than Panzer, they wouldn't be able to do this with the Bramma without dedicating a Pistol to it, or running another frame. Frost being able to provide that much viral for his weapon is very unique, and only works with a Kitgun. I think that's cool though! While Freeze's aoe can't be affected by Power Range, a 6 meter diameter is moderately fair for a 25 energy cost ability. I'm perfectly fine with it being upped or scaling with range though!

I don't think I want the opposite extreme of completely avoiding copying other things either. I'm not sure if I made it clear I didn't want it, so I suppose that's my fault. Surely, it's reasonable to want some uniqueness while minimizing homogenization of strengths and weaknesses. 

Sterilization of gameplay and flavor via homogenization isn't obvious when comparing two things directly to each other. It's a sum total of all the parts. In particular, with Iron Skin and Warding Halo, yes they are unique, but a good Warding Halo mod optimization and Iron Skin are very nearly identical; Much the same mods run beat for beat. Armor and Power Strength together, if you're feeling spicy maybe Health and Power Conversion. But... notice how you don't really have to think about that too much. A better example of what I mean is to compare damage reduction from Warding Halo to Null Star. They do similar things too, but demand more awareness of nuance.

My problem is of optimal builds for guns all looking the same. I don't know if anyone, even content creators, enjoy the fact that most builds are just carbon copies of eachother.  New emergent properties cease to arise if you do the same thing over and over. I think people really really liked Gauss' buffs bonuses scaling with Duration, as we hadn't seen something like that since Toxin Chroma and Null Star if my memory serves right. Those had some pretty unique implications on Gauss building, as the only ability at that point that minded, err... Narrowminded... range was Thermal Sunder until Mach Rush gots its augment and now Thermal Sunder got its augment. It's a really nice augment too because it can potentially change the considerations for how you mod Gauss since before you only needed Duration for massive buffs.

This is actually why my current fixation are the Demulcent Arcanes and Helminth. I struggle with enjoying things in general, it's a personal issue, but whenever something fundamentally changes things and shakes things up - that excites me to no end. I thrive off novelty and maybe a little bit of unhealthy obsession.

We currently do not have a survival and point-defense hybrid skill whos numerical values relating to its defense scale with duration. I mean... unless you count Cataclysmic Continuum? That's something that'd have interesting ramifications if it were applied to Snowglobe.

I think this both a little bit condescending in addition to being a bit of a strawman. It is ridiculous to make a frame who has abilities that do not scale with with all 4 ability stats on the same ability, though I don't think I said that nor has anyone. Actually, I don't even think Efficiency was even mentioned yet...

I do get what you're getting at. If we take ability stat exclusion to its logical extreme that's ultimately where we wind up. Though, done intelligently it's actually really cool. An ability ignoring a stat and another ignoring a different one can be really interesting if done with deliberation and in consideration of what mods can be used to spec into both. Anti-synergy with non-scaling can end really poorly. But done intelligently it can solve some anti synergies. Off the top of my head we have Baruuk's Elude and Desolate Hands. Good meme right? Raising Range lets Elude protect you from all damage, but it conflicts with the fact that Range makes Desolate Hands decay in damage reduction faster, similar to Null Star. Yet, if instead Desolate Hands could have its range capped you could, at a certain point, reap the rewards of Elude and Desolate Hands at the same time, and run a range build.

Things like Spore being a toggle without a drain, technically being an ability that ignores duration completely ends up being really good in the context of Saryn's kit. Nova's Antimatter Drop also doesn't scale with Range, it has a fixed range, but it's rather generous. It becomes a workable nuke in the context of Nova's build because they do want Narrowminded for Molecular Prime. I love stuff like this and it gives me life when I don't have the see the exact same mods being optimal everywhere. I imagine some people might feel similarly?

Speaking of...
 

I love a LOT of the changes this update, and I'm super excited to play with a lot of upcoming changes. But please, I'm begging and praying, do not put a hard cap on the number of enemies Grendel can eat. There just has to be a much cooler alternative. Why not limit the number of enemies Grendel can vomit at once instead? A sequential vomiting of groups of enemies without changing the damage they take from the *total* enemies being vomited in that sequence could fix this without adding a cap. It'd also be kinda funny.

It'd be kinda like being a messy eater visually...

It'd also have some synergy with Gloom if Grendel is allowed to eat enemies as this happens, as presently the damage dealt by 'digesting' enemies does not contribute to Helminth Gloom life steal. Hitting enemies vomited with Gas+Electric Status before the next ones come out would allow for some AoE stacking for the enemies coming up last from that gullet gut.

I can't be the only one that feels this way, right? :'(

Or just spit out loot and auto reduce the numbers without spewing out enemies. If you do2nd on grendel and it kill enemies you dont even see them poping out . just some random loot sometimes

The cap would be justified if armor was like 100 per enemy and the buffs and dmg scaled from all 40 enemies, not just first 10, if use pulverize.

 

[-RG-Jezus]

Can you PLEASE undo the 'square icons' in arsenal etc.

If you have a smaller monitor it just looks hectic, ugly and cramped, aswell as making it harder to read weapon names or differentiate quickly. 

[Azimbee]

I wonder. Is there a way to do some code wizardry that allows the icon shapes to be resized without requiring them to be saved as icons?

Like a saved variable that can resize a window without resizing the image? It’d be like having an Orbitar Poster decoration that you can zoom in without necessarily changing the saved image it presents. Except the boundaries of the poster could also be set. 
 

Crazier stuff has happened to squeeze stuff out of warframe’s engine we originally not thought possible. This is probably just me being naive but if that can be done we’d also also be able to just customize our icons ourselves. There’s bound to be someone out there that wants a hexagonal grid menu and this would make that possible while allowing a reduction in saved image icons, since there’d only ever be ‘the one’. Can someone more code oriented comment on this? I unironically like this kind of stuff.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Azimbee

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

9 hours ago, Azimbee said:

Considering the rest of Frost's Kit, he can 1 shot to level cap with Snowglobe any freezeable enemy. Making Freeze deal 6 stacks of Viral actually sets most enemies up for Snowglobe to 1 shot. Having it sustain the Kitgun's own Viremia radius' is more of a seamless way to refresh that buff and continue to plow away. You can do that with just a Viral AoE weapon, or a Panzer Vulpy, but doing it this way frees up your companion slot for something you might prefer.

Considering you still need a weapon to make Freeze deal Viral (on top of two Arcane slots), you could just, believe it or not, use a weapon to apply Viral in an AoE. But let me remind you:

16 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

what I propose has not included removing the 600% status chance from the ability

So I don't know why you're still endlessly going on about Viral Freeze!

9 hours ago, Azimbee said:

Making 1 Freeze in an AoE doesn't actually make Frost that much stronger

Actually, it does, because Freeze is Frost's cheapest freeze, it's cast one-handed, and it's Frost's only CC that doesn't have a radius originating from himself. If it could freeze in an AoE, it'd be a great tool for CCing enemies as Frost approaches them, and a setup tool for easier Snow Globe one-shots. But we don't have to take my word for it - you've given me the setup for one of my favorite tricks. Watch the magic that happens when we apply your very own logic to Freeze...

9 hours ago, Azimbee said:

Freeze also wouldn't be limited as a freeze ability, if the AoE damage when they hit could also freeze and did scale with range, allowing for multiple targets at once to be frozen in a fixed radius.  Currently Freeze struggles to freeze because it freezes one enemy at a time, and its rate of freezing is rather slow. You end up getting more value casting your 4 than trading 25 energy for 1 enemy frozen out of many. 

If it could freeze multiple at once, it'd be amazing, even with fixed ranges.

Voila! According to your very own logic, Freeze would be a great ability if it could freeze in an AoE.

9 hours ago, Azimbee said:

Hmmm.... Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not weird at all because...

... It would increase the 'Duration' the globe stays out. So what if you could?

Thanks for clarifying that it's not directly the HP you talk about to be duration-moddable, but indirectly through the invulnerability period. It would still be weird by virtue of being inconsistent given how other "damage absorption to health" abilities work, like Iron Skin and Warding Halo. Why they Strength scale instead of Duration scale speaks for itself from a player experience perspective, and through that it's obvious why Snow Globe shouldn't scale its HP with duration, even indirectly.

9 hours ago, Azimbee said:

Edit: I think I'm derailing the thread though, so I'll just practice some restraint now. Sorry for disruption.

By virtue of this, I've kept this post to Frost only.

[Lutesque]

On 2022-02-09 at 5:59 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Fixed Profit-Taker leg Health regenerating at times it shouldn't. As reported here: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1228077-profit-taker-leg-regen-legs-revive-when-they-shouldnt/ 

I can Confirm as Recently This Afternoon That This Still Happens.... Which is Fine By Me because I only really Care about the Toroids.... But I did encounter Other players that were bothered by this because they wanted a shot at Critical Focus....

I don't Have any Proof That it's Still Bugged Other Than This Image....

No that's not me being MLG.... I can Only Go Faster Than 5 Minutes if The Pylon Phase Gets Skipped Which is What This Bug Does when Triggered before The 2nd Pylon Phase....

Not only That.... I think I figured out, partly... How to Actually Trigger it.... Hosing Down Both The Legs and The Head with as Much Damage as Possible as Fast As Possible seems to trigger the bug more often... Specifically The Head.... You have to Shot it  before it becomes Vulnerable and then keep shooting it teeny bit more even when the Damage Stops Registering...

Would be easier to test if I had a Mausolon Riven... 👀

Anyway... I hope that helps figure out what's Causing it.... And while You're Doing That... I'm going to Farm more Toroids... 

Que Unrelated Image:👀

 

[Azimbee]

10 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Considering you still need a weapon to make Freeze deal Viral (on top of two Arcane slots), you could just, believe it or not, use a weapon to apply Viral in an AoE. But let me remind you: what I propose has not included removing the 600% status chance from the ability. 

So I don't know why you're still endlessly going on about Viral Freeze!

Because It's not just viral that matters. It's pretty easy to get Viral on a single AoE weapon! But... you usually need 2 weapons to get both Viral and something like Toxin or Gas at the same time. Certainly not in an AoE usually either. I think the only thing that does that is Bubonico, though there could be more.

With demulcent, you can get Viral on Freeze and a Gas/Toxin + Slash Dot on one weapon instead of 2. The weapon effectively producing Viral and Gas/Toxin at the same time which is pretty hard to do usually. I personally find that really cool. Simply because I like having options.

Such as being non-restricted in companion choice, like not needing to run Panzer in particular for easy Viral. Or not needing to run a Viral AoE weapon. Viral's not a really good damage type, so if you can offload its status another way, you can focus your AoE to deal effective damage types instead. I think this is actually kinda why I really like Exodia Contagion. It's a seamless, mostly seamless since double/bullet jump, Viral AoE that doesn't require holstering and unholstering to apply Viral in an AoE to support the gun you're attacking with. However, with Demulcent, you don't even need a second weapon to support the kitgun you're using. It provides value by freeing up your weapon loadout, allowing you to run a different combo on a Primary/Secondary with your melee.

I don't take issue with you preserving 600% status chance on freeze. I think it's cool that it can do this, so I'm happy you don't seemingly want to remove it. I'm hoping devs agree and don't remove the interaction.

10 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

[Freeze also wouldn't be limited as a freeze ability, if the AoE damage when they hit could also freeze and did scale with range, allowing for multiple targets at once to be frozen in a fixed radius.  Currently Freeze struggles to freeze because it freezes one enemy at a time, and its rate of freezing is rather slow. You end up getting more value casting your 4 than trading 25 energy for 1 enemy frozen out of many. 

If it could freeze multiple at once, it'd be amazing, even with fixed ranges.]

Voila! According to your very own logic, Freeze would be a great ability if it could freeze in an AoE.

I don't recall saying it'd be an ineffective ability if it could freeze in an AoE. I actually said it would be like Rest and Sleep Arrow, very strong abilities though I suppose I didn't say I had that opinion on those two abilities. My bad. It'd be a fantastic ability, yes, and this would be a very easy fix to implement.

I actually more strongly recall my actual issue with Freeze being made like those two to be something along the lines of:

On 2022-02-10 at 1:47 PM, Azimbee said:

I don’t want Freeze to be weak but I also wouldn’t want to be on the same level as Sleep Arrow and Rest, if it gets there by working exactly how they got there. 

I had to change Snowglobe and its comparisons, but I think this reiteration demonstrates where my values lay.

On 2022-02-10 at 3:57 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Giving that rework to Ice Wave rather than Freeze would just make it ten times more redundant apart from that highly specific niche you mentioned. Instead, giving Freeze and AoE freeze while letting Ice Wave do bonus damage vs. frozen targets would do the opposite of homogenizing it with Rest and Sleep Arrow.

Hmmm.... and this was your response. Well the latter part of this quote was. Actually, when laid out this way in hindsight it actually would be just different enough from Rest and Sleep Arrow since it increases damage via Critical Chance and Critical Damage instead of increasing damage taken like those two abilities do. Freeze doesn't actually increase damage vulnerability on its own without Demulcent. It also doesn't open them up to finishers... So, point taken!

Yes, this would work.
Now I recall what I said in regards to efficacy, it's not that being like Sleep Arrow and Rest would make Freeze bad. It's that it doesn't address this:

20 hours ago, Azimbee said:

Making 1 Freeze in an AoE doesn't actually make Frost that much stronger, because freezing enemies at a distance doesn't actually improve Frost's damage and cc efficacy all that much. It would see meaningful improvement if you run it alongside Biting Frost, but not on its own. Actually, both your suggestion for it to AoE Freeze and Biting Frost run into a similar issue and don't actually complement each other.

Anything Frost can Freeze, Frost can Yeet with a Snowglobe to kill all the way to level cap. Unless this is changed, I don't really see a need to give Frost more Freeze on his... Freeze(?) The only thing Globe Nuking can't solve is Unfreezeables, which wouldn't be affected by Freeze's err... Freeze.... Which are also enemies that would be unaffected by Biting Frost. But a lot of those same enemies are affected by the cold stacks, or the viral stacks with Demulcent in that same AoE. Cold and Viral Status can't be stopped by Demolyst pulses clearing them of ability debuffs.

Aww geeze, I see what I did wrong here. Sec.
"both your suggestion for it to AoE Freeze and Biting Frost run into a similar issue and don't actually complement each other." I didn't clarify I meant this in the context of Frosts's weaknesses before going into this next part.

"The only thing Globe Nuking can't solve is Unfreezeables, which wouldn't be affected by Freeze's err... Freeze.... Which are also enemies that would be unaffected by Biting Frost"

Yes, it would make Freeze stronger and compliment Biting Frost better but I remember my mind trailing off and realizing that it doesn't cover that one type of content Frost would struggle with a lot, since their Freeze doesn't work on certain key enemies. Though in hindsight, I think it's fine if Frost has that kind of weakness, since there are other frames that can do that type of content, specializing in boss busting.

So would you say Frost's talents reside in freeing up your weapons and their mods (between Freeze Force, Demulcent, and Biting Frost), and an inkling of Trash Mob Massacre? I suppose if we grow Frost in that direction it actually would cement him into that role a bit more cohesively and making Freeze AoE would do that.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Azimbee

[Azimbee]

EDIT: Completely misread this, addressing it now.

10 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Thanks for clarifying that it's not directly the HP you talk about to be duration-moddable, but indirectly through the invulnerability period. It would still be weird by virtue of being inconsistent given how other "damage absorption to health" abilities work, like Iron Skin and Warding Halo. Why they Strength scale instead of Duration scale speaks for itself from a player experience perspective, and through that it's obvious why Snow Globe shouldn't scale its HP with duration, even indirectly.

I don't think it's that weird. I actually see Snowglobe as a middle ground/hybrid between Cataclysm or Strangledome and Iron Skin. When it comes to protecting a player, buffs typically increase with Power Strength. When it comes to defending an objective? Duration matters there just as much as strength. If anything, it'd be weirder if it only scaled with one and not the other.

I don't think I fully understand the statement "Why they Strength scale instead of Duration scale speaks for itself from a player experience perspective". If it's something along the lines of "All these other things work with strength and work fine, so this one should too" I'm not sure how I feel about that. I get 'if it aint broke don't fix it' applies here, but exploring things could be cool. It might be nice to see toes dipped into making Snowglobe scale with duration and armor first, and if that's not enough, yeah, convention would address it failing innovation.

Wait, I accidentally quoted instead of editing. Rip me. I'll just delete the quote block of my own post to make it take up less space. Is there a way I can merge my posts. Do I need to ask a moderator to do that for me? It bugs me that I accidentally double posted because this might bother others.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Azimbee

[enim4]

"Fixed Preparation Mod not setting your max Energy after entering a Sanctuary Onslaught Conduit. "

Congratz only took 2 years.

[--RV--Bladek]

PLEASE
Repair the CO back to normal, it does work only on gunblades rtn. Ty in advance.

 

Fellow

Tenno

[Aila]

New  Arsenal Screen square icons is awful!

[W4RF4M3]

Hi, since the bounty narmer on the plains of eidolon have levels 50-70, only the NARMER THUMPER DOMA can be scanned

please fix it, thnx

[Numerounius]

On 2022-02-09 at 8:11 AM, XHADgaming said:

Bugs I want to get fixed in order of most important to least important, after a brief skim through the list it is sad to see none of these bugs mentioned fixed.

E: That is a nice and Comprehensive list of bugs that I see that have been fixed. But an ETA on when the following bugs will be fixed is also nice.
Excavation progress UI not showing up for client, this is most common for arbitration missions. 

Sac alt fire throw with glaive, repro video inside. This can cause the arcana bounties to become impossible since the only way to progress in the bounty is to throw the sac.

Akarius explosion fx, see post below this has been bugged for so long I think it is finally time DE dedicates some resources to fixing it.

Casting Celestial Twin with total eclipse active does not grant the twin the buff, see post for video and reproduction steps.

Excavator collision hitbox is all messed up and needs to be fixed

 

In addition there are two more to add to this list, 

The first is [primed ammo stock] still having issues with being a Baro^tm mod and not being linkable and the API can't read it ( ex. warframe extension and overframe's player capture data.) This usually gets solved within the next patch however, with this being a major update it is shocking to still see this not fixed. It would be nice to get this process automated or put on the watchlist when a new mod becomes available for Baro so we don't have to deal with this issue every single time

The second is that arcane revives do not work in archwing, this may not be a bug and if so, please clarify this somehow in-game.(this idea comes from the fact exodia contagion got a functionality change yet its in-game description was never updated to reflect this.)

Update: Another bug has been added to the list of growing problems. You cannot re-summon your necrmech if you get into your necramech during it summon (i.e. you have just the cob and not the full mech)

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by XHADgaming