Multiple lingering zones from Vial Rush are CRUCIAL for Lavos gameplay - they must be re-enabled

[TheLexiConArtist]

As stated in the update notes:

On 2022-02-09 at 6:08 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

On 2022-02-09 at 3:59 PM, [DE]Megan said:

• Lavos’ Vial Rush has been slightly changed in the name of performance. When casting Vial Rush zones from previous Vial Rush are removed but deal a one time damage proportional to their remaining duration.

WHAT?

No, sorry. Performance or no performance, this is a DEVASTATING detriment to Lavos' functionality in both damage and utility!

Did you forget that Lavos' primary feature is applying multiple statuses, not direct damage (because statuses = damage via Catalyse)?

Not only is the ability for Lavos to leave multiple persistent zones in multiple areas crucial to the reliability of status counts on enemies that Catalyse will hit - because all the other abilities are directional - this change also prevents using the 'threat zones' for utility - leaving statuses like Fire, Electricity, Radiation unable to be leveraged to control/distract everything that trespasses a wider area or from multiple directions to a goal.

Remember how you just released a second Cooldown Reduction option in the augment which we use to cover more ground more reliably with the clunky disbursement of vials?

 

You must revert this and find another way to handle the performance hits, if you aren't going to rework anything in Lavos's kit to compensate.

I cannot overstate how much this 'simple' 'performance' change has massacred my boy.

Vial Rush was designed as Lavos's lowest-cooldown ability - objectively, it's the ability he's supposed to be getting the most from using to do his thing. His thing, of course, is being able to apply multiple status procs, of varying kinds and stack-counts, at-will via his passive infusion mechanic.

Persistent threat zones from Vial Rush were the absolute best option for doing this - not only to enemies in the immediate effect, but also letting the player layer complete stacks of more statuses on through multiple ability uses because of the persistency.

Not only is Vial Rush the lowest natural cooldown, but with two other abilities offering it cooldown reduction, there is absolutely no argument that you were meant to be playing with a single Vial Rush payload limit on the ground at any given time.

 

Making the zones pop for damage is laughably inconsequential compared to letting them do the thing, because direct damage is Catalyse's job, which wants that exact status variety the lingering threat of Vials provided.

Meanwhile, it also killed the core utility of 'everything passing this direction gets a status combo' and/or 'everything passing these directions gets a status'.

 

This change may not seem like it to those who didn't play Lavos - clearly DE haven't explored what he relied on for potential beyond 'not having energy' - but it's the equivalent to removing the Mandachord from Octavia without even a default song as backup; it's like removing Gauss's battery meter. The abilities might still do.. something, but it's taken away the lynchpin that made them useful. No redline or Kinetic Barrier power scaling for Gauss. No Mallet ticks for Octavia, only a basic decoy, and no buffs from Metronome..

 

It must be reconsidered. The performance hit isn't worth kneecapping what a frame can reliably do.

[Selenitic]

Is the problem graphical?

If so, then why not tone the visuals down for this ability, and then when Lavos Prime gets released a few years from now, give this Prime Variant a spectacularly unique Vial Rush.

In the time between then and now, the Developers can continue to refine the game, and will eventually be able to handle Vial Rush without sacrificing performance.

[NeoRetro10K]

I do not even play Lavos that much, and I agree with this. I am even less likely to play him now, as his main use has been gutted.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

"there is absolutely no argument that you were meant to be playing with a single Vial Rush payload limit on the ground at any given time".

That statement is 100% correct but...........are you sure you understand what it means? Because it contradicts your entire point, you know that right?

 

For clarity, that statement says:

There should only ever be 1 pool from Vial Rush on the ground at any given time.

Thats 100% correct. There is not meant to be 2 or 3 pools on top of each other or in different areas at the same time. 1 pool can have any Element present ingame except Void. Thats already powerful, and the mod makes it so that instead of the previous pool just disappearing, it'll apply all its remaining damage in 1 hit to anyone standing in it. Making it more powerful. Have you actually tried it or are you just going by what you imagine it is?

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

"there is absolutely no argument that you were meant to be playing with a single Vial Rush payload limit on the ground at any given time".

That statement is 100% correct but...........are you sure you understand what it means? Because it contradicts your entire point, you know that right?

For clarity, that statement says:

There should only ever be 1 pool from Vial Rush on the ground at any given time.

"There is absolutely no argument that": The following concept is false:

"You were meant to be playing with": It was designed for

"a single Vial Rush payload limit": only one deployment of Vials

"on the ground at any given time": to exist at once.

I think you must have misread and glossed over a word or compartmentalised something incorrectly.

9 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Thats 100% correct. There is not meant to be 2 or 3 pools on top of each other or in different areas at the same time. 1 pool can have any Element present ingame except Void. Thats already powerful, and the mod makes it so that instead of the previous pool just disappearing, it'll apply all its remaining damage in 1 hit to anyone standing in it. Making it more powerful. Have you actually tried it or are you just going by what you imagine it is?

Lavos is not old Chroma, he does not pick one element and run with it. The whole conceit of Lavos is to apply wide varieties of status types (and/or numerous stacks thereof).

It's not a 'mod'. It's a nerf. The direct damage is not the point of Vial Rush. It's a vehicle to apply procs (which then may do damage, provide utility, or amplify damage). More proc-types is multiplicative damage from Catalyse, but even that's not (necessarily) all about the direct damage - it always procs Fire, so that's also damage-over-time.

All the procs of which benefit from Lavos's passive inference of Status Duration from Ability Duration as well. In terms of Toxin, Electricity, and Fire: More stacking procs * more time = net damage over time ^ 2. Plus you might be adding in Viral/Corrosive/Magnetic stacks on top of all of that to further amplify the output.

 

Also, the vial hitboxes are pathetic because they don't scale up with Range. You only get a denser clustering of ~2m radius payloads deployed, but they're still not hitting a wider area. Only the "end of dash" explosion scales up in actual effect radius.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

"There is absolutely no argument that": The following concept is false:

"You were meant to be playing with": It was designed for

"a single Vial Rush payload limit": only one deployment of Vials

"on the ground at any given time": to exist at once.

I think you must have misread and glossed over a word or compartmentalised something incorrectly.

Lavos is not old Chroma, he does not pick one element and run with it. The whole conceit of Lavos is to apply wide varieties of status types (and/or numerous stacks thereof).

It's not a 'mod'. It's a nerf. The direct damage is not the point of Vial Rush. It's a vehicle to apply procs (which then may do damage, provide utility, or amplify damage). More proc-types is multiplicative damage from Catalyse, but even that's not (necessarily) all about the direct damage - it always procs Fire, so that's also damage-over-time.

All the procs of which benefit from Lavos's passive inference of Status Duration from Ability Duration as well. In terms of Toxin, Electricity, and Fire: More stacking procs * more time = net damage over time ^ 2. Plus you might be adding in Viral/Corrosive/Magnetic stacks on top of all of that to further amplify the output.

 

Also, the vial hitboxes are pathetic because they don't scale up with Range. You only get a denser clustering of ~2m radius payloads deployed, but they're still not hitting a wider area. Only the "end of dash" explosion scales up in actual effect radius.

Tbh you've just made it look like you're more confused now than when you started this. Trust me, stop reading the mod and go try the mod. Others have played Lavos too so the explanation was unnecessary. Stop reading start trying.

[TheLexiConArtist]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Tbh you've just made it look like you're more confused now than when you started this. Trust me, stop reading the mod and go try the mod. Others have played Lavos too so the explanation was unnecessary. Stop reading start trying.

I'm not the one saying it's a mod. It's a base change to the ability, we have no option but to suffer its negative impact. So I've 'tried it' by default.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

58 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Tbh you've just made it look like you're more confused now than when you started this. Trust me, stop reading the mod and go try the mod. Others have played Lavos too so the explanation was unnecessary. Stop reading start trying.

What "mod" are you referring to? OP's not talking about any particular mod from what I can tell.

"Old" Lavos meant you could apply a metric ton of statuses etc, and the interaction with their other abilities (as well as weapons like cedo, plus mods like CO), meant Lavos was capable of some absurd damage. Now, that's basically all gone, especially if you leant into the duration build. If you compare dps for a duration built lavos, it's taken a huge hit.

[ligonare]

I know what you mean, OP. I use duration Lavos for cc and area of denial by stacking vial rush too.

If a compromise is needed, utility should not be gimped. Nerf the visuals I say, not how the power. 

Damage be damned for all the wrong reasons. If I wanna deal damage, I use my weapons...

[Lutesque]

9 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The performance hit isn't worth kneecapping what a frame can reliably do.

Sadly DE feels like it is.... Remember they are planning on Cross Play and Mobile Platforms so even If Lavos doesn't Deserved to Get Nerfed ... He's getting one anyway.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Since Yareli isn't Breaking anything it's Okay for her to continue being Rubbish....

That is what DE has decided.... 

 

[Punchyfist]

If they're going to dumpster a power they should be at least respectful enough to not call it a 'slight' change, especially when saying as a compensation for removing a massive portion of a powers use it will now do a poof of damage your legs could out do by just jumping.  If it's going to have a third to three times it's use ability lost it should have at least as much more duration, or its DoT sped up so it hits more time or its range increased or SOMETHING.  Something more then it farting out of existence directly in our face.

[Selenitic]

15 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

... vial hitboxes are pathetic because they don't scale up with Range. You only get a denser clustering of ~2m radius payloads deployed, but they're still not hitting a wider area. Only the "end of dash" explosion scales up in actual effect radius.

If DE insists on there only ever being one trail of Vails per Lavos on the field, then would changing the width of the trail or splash of the Vails based on Range, be a beneficial and acceptable trade off mechanically?

Alternatively, what if Lavos could add additional Status Procs to a Vial Trail by hitting it with a separate ability?

I was thinking about his 3 and 4 being able to chemically charge an existing line. But that might be over powered considering their range? If so, then this could be an additional trait added on to his 1 ability, as a way to slap down an additional Status Arena.

Personally, I like Lavos and want him to be very effective. So I'd be happy to see his 1, 3 and 4 each being capable of adding custom charged Status Procs to his own Chem Trail.

Making it so Lavos can do this to other Player's Chem Trails might be a bit much though... But hey, if a full team of Lavos want to wash a Tile Set in a chemical bath, then why not?

Actually, it would be kind of funny for DE to make this how Lavos works, potentially making him very powerful in the process... Only to then add enemy types that are super charged when splashed by the wrong element. Making Lavos both deadly effective and demanding an attentive player.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, Selenitic said:

If DE insists on there only ever being one trail of Vails per Lavos on the field, then would changing the width of the trail or splash of the Vails based on Range, be a beneficial and acceptable trade off mechanically?

Alternatively, what if Lavos could add additional Status Procs to a Vial Trail by hitting it with a separate ability?

I was thinking about his 3 and 4 being able to chemically charge an existing line. But that might be over powered considering their range? If so, then this could be an additional trait added on to his 1 ability, as a way to slap down an additional Status Arena.

Personally, I like Lavos and want him to be very effective. So I'd be happy to see his 1, 3 and 4 each being capable of adding custom charged Status Procs to his own Chem Trail.

Making it so Lavos can do this to other Player's Chem Trails might be a bit much though... But hey, if a full team of Lavos want to wash a Tile Set in a chemical bath, then why not?

Actually, it would be kind of funny for DE to make this how Lavos works, potentially making him very powerful in the process... Only to then add enemy types that are super charged when splashed by the wrong element. Making Lavos both deadly effective and demanding an attentive player.

Any/all of those would be a better tradeoff by virtue of being an actual tradeoff rather than a flat out removal.

I still don't think they quite compensate it to a comparable level, though. Throwing out ability B to empower ability A while you actually have more important reasons to be using B in a different way is the reason Vial Rush was so crucial. Honestly, I think the vial effect/trigger range scaling up should be included even with the nerf reverted. Enemies can slip between or sometimes even run right through them without getting tagged (or only once).

Say you're setting up for Catalyse - you can throw out a Probe, but that's more important to be optimally used for cooling down Catalyse after its cast (when it has a cooldown to reduce) than priming before it. Ophidian Bite is too janky and restrictive to do a good job at applying status either, you can better use it for healing and maybe CDR of its own via the augment _{which is still inexcusably high demand and low reward for how jank that ability targeting is} which leaves.. Vial Rushing multiple times to set up Cold plus N other statuses stacking up concurrently.

Plus there's the whole directionality issue. Individual Vial Rush and both Probe and Bite are mono-directional AOE (yes, I count Vial Rush despite being able to steer it, it can't cover THAT much unless you have a Fissure buff doubling-up high modded duration) while Catalyse is omni-directional PBAOE, so using the former to prime the latter is forcing a square peg in a round hole. Utility-statuses from only one direction aren't enough for, say, a Mob Def or any other mission-type where you can't pick a dead end to hide in.