Ancients are an example of balance failure.

[Yasha-7HS]

TL;DR at the bottom

Ancients have a grappling hook which

• Has next to no tell
• Scales in damage(which wouldn't be too much of a problem if it didn't... ↙)
• Applies aura effects
• Causes a knockdown effect
• Can seek you through enemies
• Ignores terrain while attached
• Is not restrained to their model's facing direction
• Can be "queued" to cast while they're being afflicted by stuns of many types
• Can still seek you with great accuracy while they are blinded, knocked down, ragdolled, or panicking

Grappling hooks are effectively not able to be countered by the majority of frames:

• Blocking a grappling hook will still allow the aura's effect
• The ancient's ability to predict movement ignores terrain and Line of Sight
• The knockdown effect can sometimes cancel animations that are supposed to grant immunity to knock down, such as rolling
• Can scale high enough that the damage reduction of rolling means little to nothing, as the toxin damage will still kill you outright. This is not at extreme levels of 3000+, it's far sooner.

The point of the ability is to pull you closer to them while causing you to be vulnerable to other infested units. However, Ancients will use this even while close enough to use their moderate range arm attack. More than six ancients can spawn at any given time, even all together. As such, even while you are knocked down and being actively grappled, another ancient can still cast their grapple, thus knocking you down immediately after recovering or even sooner, while you're still on the floor. This more rare occurrence can confuse your movement impulse, and cause you to recover and move in awkward directions, or gain high velocity in the wrong direction. 

In short, this single ability is responsible for the entire threat of the Infested Faction as a whole, and not in a good way. At high enough levels, this ability that potentially cannot be seen, reacted to, or blocked has an extreme level of accuracy that makes evasion worthless, and can do enough damage to kill you instantly through shields via toxin's damage. No other infested unit is a threat, and this is the single case scenario that kills most players fighting infested.

The faction should be balanced to be more of a threat without relying on an attack that's countered solely by being immune to damage and status effects entirely. Firstly, to address the other units:

 

Spoiler

1. Basic infested units should have more speed(both an increase in movement and a reduction in animation duration), and have the ability to attack while moving. This makes it possible for Chargers, Leapers and Runners to hit players, as they're currently incapable of even damaging a frame that's walking in a small circle.
2. Ospreys and Crawlers while assisting each other should be able to have a ranged attack. Crawlers should be able to throw things, and the Osprey should be allowed to throw the Crawler itself when in range at Warframes, causing the Crawler to climb onto its back, slowing it and dealing small damage. This makes it possible for Crawlers to actually have a point to exist, as currently they serve less threat than Grineer Arc traps.
3. Tar and Swarm Moas should be able to cast their abilities more often in smaller number, but greater effect. While I don't particularly mean that the Swarm Moa's clouds should obfuscate more of the screen, they should be able to cast one cloud that has a much more pronounced damage effect on Warframes and a more powerful armor buff on other Infested units. Tar Moas should be able to cast one large puddle that has a more distinct damage effect on Warframes. Additionally, they should also have a close ranged kick capable of knocking *back* the Warframe so that they can use their abilities. This would allow them a less passive interaction with melee players.
4. Brood mothers are quite useless. They stop and make themselves vulnerable while summoning maggots that have too little health to be worth mentioning or paying attention to. Brood mothers should be able to spawn maggots at a moderate interval while moving and attacking. As opposed to being melee units, they should have a ranged attack where if a maggot is close enough, they pick it up to throw at you. They can have a number of other effects so that this isn't a low priority attack. The maggots could be volatile, shocking, or have any number of status effects that make them more of an immediate threat.
5. Boilers are quite useless as well, as they exist to die with a head hitbox half the size of their model. It would be nice if they spawned less frequently, and instead of running directly at the player for... No reason at all they ran away from the player, limited to the tile that the player is in, and spawned fewer pods with higher priority targets. Such as Moas, Ospreys, and even Deimos enemies like the Carnis. This makes it a unique enemy with a potent threat that doesn't just sprint at you to die instantly.
6.  The Juggernaut could replace Acolytes in Steel Path missions.

 

In return for buffing the less useful enemies of the faction, we nerf grappling hook to not be a cheap one shot ability.

 

Spoiler

1. No longer apply the Aura effects of Ancients.
2. Maximum fire angle is clamped to 75 degrees of the model's facing direction. i.e., they can no longer fire grapples through their own chest, behind themselves in order to hit you.
3. Does not scale in damage
4. Has collision with other Infested Units
5. Will break and stop pulling upon losing LoS. i.e., no more pulling through walls
6. Can only be used by one Ancient within 25 meters
7. Has a global cooldown of 15-20 seconds
8. Has a cast time of 1.5-2 seconds, and a sound associated with channeling the ability
9. Should not be cast when the player is moving towards the enemy
10. Should prioritize being cast when the player is in the air, ignoring change 9
11. Have significant reduction in accuracy when the player is moving, sliding, and rolling

 

I would also like to recommend a very particular change. Grappling Hooks should not knock down the player, but instead stay attached until the player rolls or melees. This reduces the speed of the Warframe, and gives a small impulse towards the enemy that grappled the player. Upon the player reaching this enemy, they will do a higher damage move such as the knock back attack that Ancients have.

If the player rolls, the grappling hook should simply detach. If the melee button is used, the enemy should be pulled toward the Warframe at a moderate speed. Ideally, the parazon system could be worked into this idea by pressing the interact button, and thus doing a Mercy animation by grabbing the grappling hook and swinging the enemy around in a circle, creating a small area stun before slamming this enemy into the ground. However, that's a quite long animation idea, and Mercies in general are very bad, slow, and not useful in general gameplay.

I would also recommend this change for Scorpions, as they have similar issues of not being able to catch the player and casting the grappling hook in awkward ways.

TL;DR

Spoiler

Obnoxious, heat-seeking Toxin one shot + 1000 energy draining grapples cast by enemies that are literally eating floor from a ragdoll effect is horseS#&$ and should be nerfed while the rest of the faction needs major buffs to actually challenge my existence for once in their lives instead of uselessly flailing because I moved 1m/s to the left. :)

 

[Genitive]

I will just add that ancient disruptors drain energy on hit (any hit, not just grappling attack or magnetic proc). At higher levels they can drain 300+ energy in one go, and the game spawns them like there is no tomorrow. After the eximus rework ancients should be the next in line, because I can't imagine anyone can consider this as fine.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

ancients and Skorpions can be mood killers when they spawn ever 5 seconds and instantly use their grapple whenever they see you, i noticed they will use grapple nonstop too,  like i dodge 1 just for them to immediately throw it at me again.

 

also ancients should have to look to throw the grapple, even with just this, atleast their grapple wont be as stupid as it is. though i find it funny that they can grab you out of the sky no matter the speed your travelling.

another easy thing is just allow us to press a button that allows us to grab the grapple and counter them.

like:

press Melee to grab grapple, pull enemy towards you.

or

press Melee to grab grapple, pull enemy towards you which knocks them down and allows you to perform a Ground Finisher.

 

Edit: idk what button would work best for countering the Grapple

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

 

Ancients have a grappling hook which

• Has next to no tell
• Scales in damage(which wouldn't be too much of a problem if it didn't... ↙)
• Applies aura effects
• Causes a knockdown effect
• Can seek you through enemies
• Ignores terrain while attached
• Is not restrained to their model's facing direction
• Can be "queued" to cast while they're being afflicted by stuns of many types
• Can still seek you with great accuracy while they are blinded, knocked down, ragdolled, or panicking

Grappling hooks are effectively not able to be countered by the majority of frames:

• Blocking a grappling hook will still allow the aura's effect
• The ancient's ability to predict movement ignores terrain and Line of Sight
• The knockdown effect can sometimes cancel animations that are supposed to grant immunity to knock down, such as rolling
• Can scale high enough that the damage reduction of rolling means little to nothing, as the toxin damage will still kill you outright. This is not at extreme levels of 3000+, it's far sooner.

DE Appreciates your Feedback and is pleased with the Fact that Ancients are Working as Intended.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2 hours ago, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

and can do enough damage to kill you instantly through shields via toxin's damage.

The main Reason why I don't Farm Mutagen Samples with Nekros....

Lost all my Revives Exclusively to Toxic Ancients Yanking me from Off Screen....

2 hours ago, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

The faction should be balanced to be more of a threat without relying on an attack that's countered solely by being immune to damage and status effects entirely. Firstly, to address the other units:

Actually This doesn't Counter the Ancient Disruptor's Energy Drain at all.... 

Getting Tagged by One Of These on The Steel Path in An Endless mission can be a run Ender if your Warframe Relies on Energy to Exist in that level of Content....

It can also easily be Run Ender in ESO since the Game resets your Energy by Default and then The Disruptors take whatever's left....

 

[Graavarg]

Well, I disagree. 180 degrees even, since I think Ancients are a good example of actual balance vs Tenno. Especially Toxic Ancients and Ancient Disruptors.

Instead of going into a (very) long argumentation of why that is, I'll do a very short and simple "proof" of this. We respect them. Some might even fear them, or hate them. But even if we can kill them easily enough we respect them as enemies, due to their attacks and abilities. And that is something that we sorely need in Warframe. "Respectable enemies".

It seems to me that your "balancing" suggestions are solely geared towards removing and/or nerfing the abilities and attacks that explicitly make us respect them. In a way your goal is to "fodderize" them, to turn the Ancients into less dangerous, less troublesome enemies that can be dispatched without any real risk. I think that would be totally detrimental to the game, and I am personally 100% opposed to this idea.

If anything, we need MORE dangerous enemies. We need enemies we have to handle, to actually fight. God knows we have enough of totally indistinguishable enemies for "bramma'ing" left and right, by the hundreds. And somehow the idea that the few enemies that can actually kill and/or affect us are "unbalanced" seem a bit "kindergardenish" to me. As if Warframe should be a game where you are not supposed to ever be downed or die (on top of us having X number of lives per mission). So nothing personal and a big plus for your comprehensive and clearly written arguments, but a distinct "no" to the weakening/nerfing suggestions.

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

Can still seek you with great accuracy while they are blinded, knocked down, ragdolled, or panicking

In my experience, I'd say there's just a tiny bit of delay before blinds, knockdowns, and ragdolls  take effect, and if the Ancient has already started the attack it won't necessarily be interrupted.  Sonic Boom, Breach Surge, and Radial Blind are definitely really helpful.  Sound Quake stagger locks them down, although every once in a while I'll hear the audio cue for it...but it doesn't seem to have any effect.  I'm less sure about fears, although Terrify seems effective...again, after a short delay.

 

4 hours ago, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

Is not restrained to their model's facing direction

This is an odd one.  I've seen this happen in game occasionally, but I'm not able to replicate it in the simulacrum.  I wonder if it's a client or lag issue.

 

4 hours ago, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

Can seek you through enemies

Well yeah.  It'd be pretty useless if it couldn't. :P

5 hours ago, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

In short, this single ability is responsible for the entire threat of the Infested Faction as a whole, and not in a good way. At high enough levels, this ability that potentially cannot be seen, reacted to, or blocked has an extreme level of accuracy that makes evasion worthless, and can do enough damage to kill you instantly through shields via toxin's damage. No other infested unit is a threat, and this is the single case scenario that kills most players fighting infested.

I find Mutalist Moas and Ospreys pretty dangerous, although that's enhanced by Ancients, no doubt.

And that leads into my issue with Ancients.  I agree they do too much, even for a special, high priority unit.   But I think their direct damage threat should be reduced, and their danger focused almost entirely on debuffs and making us vulnerable to other units.  In turn, that probably means that the swarmy units should have their damage kicked up another notch. 

[Yamazuki]

6 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Well, I disagree. 180 degrees even, since I think Ancients are a good example of actual balance vs Tenno. Especially Toxic Ancients and Ancient Disruptors.

Instead of going into a (very) long argumentation of why that is, I'll do a very short and simple "proof" of this. We respect them. Some might even fear them, or hate them. But even if we can kill them easily enough we respect them as enemies, due to their attacks and abilities. And that is something that we sorely need in Warframe. "Respectable enemies".

It seems to me that your "balancing" suggestions are solely geared towards removing and/or nerfing the abilities and attacks that explicitly make us respect them. In a way your goal is to "fodderize" them, to turn the Ancients into less dangerous, less troublesome enemies that can be dispatched without any real risk. I think that would be totally detrimental to the game, and I am personally 100% opposed to this idea.

If anything, we need MORE dangerous enemies. We need enemies we have to handle, to actually fight. God knows we have enough of totally indistinguishable enemies for "bramma'ing" left and right, by the hundreds. And somehow the idea that the few enemies that can actually kill and/or affect us are "unbalanced" seem a bit "kindergardenish" to me. As if Warframe should be a game where you are not supposed to ever be downed or die (on top of us having X number of lives per mission). So nothing personal and a big plus for your comprehensive and clearly written arguments, but a distinct "no" to the weakening/nerfing suggestions.

Keeping them as is does nothing to prevent them from being "bramm'ed". AOE weapons delete them before they're even able to do anything.

Even though I don't use aoe 'guns', I still don't find them threatening. I personally wouldn't notice them if it weren't for the visuals.

OP also suggests other enemy types be made more relevant, as most units just run at you in slow-motion begging to be slaughtered; enemies with melee attacks will sometimes miss even if you afk.

It doesn't even make sense for an entire faction to be reliant on a singular attack against an enemy that wasn't prepared for the one attack, and it's not as if the preparation is based on skill either. It's as simple as Warframe choice, specific mods, or Focus Tree selection to invalidate them with no thought.

[Unitearica]

I find nothing threatening about the ancients. They maybe harder and a bit of a challenge at times, but ive had no issue dodging their grapple (by jump, slide, or dodge) or I use aquablades as a personal defense which counters their grapple.

I have enjoyed the changes ancients have given.

[Yasha-7HS]

10 hours ago, Graavarg said:

It seems to me that your "balancing" suggestions are solely geared towards removing and/or nerfing the abilities and attacks that explicitly make us respect them. In a way your goal is to "fodderize" them, to turn the Ancients into less dangerous, less troublesome enemies that can be dispatched without any real risk. I think that would be totally detrimental to the game, and I am personally 100% opposed to this idea.

My goal is to make them a high priority threat that can be countered, which is why I don't have a problem with their aura effects themselves. If anything, it's fine to even increase the effect of their auras as long as the other units are buffed to be able to take advantage of it.

The only thing changed for ancients would be their ability to one shot you for little reason while also draining your entire energy bar, enforcing a boring meta of playing Rhino with a Kuva Bramma rather than being allowed to pick anyone else. They are only troublesome and a threat due to not respecting their own models, stun mechanics and evasion, resulting in more buggy and unpolished looking casts.

It's worth noting while I put all of my recommended changes together, it's entirely reasonable to make exclusions. Say, if they don't apply aura effects, then their grapple can scale in damage without much issue.

8 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Well yeah.  It'd be pretty useless if it couldn't. :P

As Ancients are taller than most units, this wouldn't be a problem when you're surrounded by Chargers and various runners. My issue comes from when they're able to hit me through the hitbox of other Ancients and Guardian eximus, making it even more difficult to react to their attacks.

[Graavarg]

5 hours ago, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

My goal is to make them a high priority threat that can be countered, which is why I don't have a problem with their aura effects themselves.

My point was that this is what they are: "a high priority threat that can be countered". The grappling hook work just like the Grineer Scorpion's hook as it uses the same "underlying code" (at least it did, once upon a time). Which includes a short "tell", allowing you to move  or counter or even kill the enemy (if you are fast enough). Ancients also have an ability "no spam"-timer, just as Scorpions, so after dodging, countering or just tanking the hit you have a nice time window to drop them. Also like Scorpions, ganging up on you with "multiple hooking" can be a real threat, no matter how well equipped you are (unless you know from experience how to get out of such an "ongoing knockdown"-situation).

But we don't really respect or fear Scorpions, now do we? Disregarding higher level new Eximus Scorpions they belong in the "trash mob" category, occasionally maybe rising to "nuisance" level.

My point is that it isn't (and can't be) the grappling hook attack itself or it's knockdown and short tell that makes us respect Ancients, or anything else that they share with Scorpions. The reason for us respecting one enemy type but not the other is something that differs between the enemy types. And the difference, at enemy type level, is that the Ancient's grappling hook attack does additional damage. Toxic Ancients' hook does (surprise...) Toxic damage (bypassing shields, including shield gating), while Ancient Disruptors hit you with a Magnetic proc.

Additional differences are the aura (which comes into effect if you get reeled in by the hook, or get too close and then knocked down) and that Ancients have the capability to buff other units (and other Ancients in certain ways). Two other important differences is that Ancients move and act in a different way (than Scorpions, which simply "run at you") and that they are generally tankier than the surrounding mob. Together this means that simple-mindedly mass-slaughtering the cannon-fodder mob will leave Ancients standing and grouping up over time. And groups of Ancients are not to be trifled with.

As to the auras, my personal opinion is that the "less understood" Ancient's capabilities of negating/reducing CC are a big part of the reason players fear and respect them. Not really sure how the new "Overguard"-based Ancient Healers work (previously they couldn't apply "anti-CC" to other Ancients), but Ancient Disruptors also negates/reduces CC for other Ancients. This "de-syncs" a player's CC-abilities (and weapons), which the effect that they sometimes work as intended (no Ancient Disruptor in range) and sometimes not (Ancient Disruptors in range, with a stackable anti-CC effect). This is in part what makes the hook attacks so effective (and unexpected), you expect or even notice that an Ancient gets CC'ed, but it "does not compute" that they will be released early (or that they can continue unaffected).

In addition to this Toxic Ancients (explicitly, I think) have this behavior where they sneak up on you from behind and "insta-kill" you from close range. This is so noticeable we have a "clan name" for it ("neck kiss of death" 🙂), and in SP Deimos farming missions it is the single most occurring reason a squad mate needs to be ressed (the next being the Acolytes).

To sum it up it up the infested Ancients (Healer, Toxic and Disruptor) gets our respect because they are (very) well designed enemies: their attacks and grappling hooks can't generally be shrugged off, they buff other enemies in different ways (including units from other factions when "corrupted") and negate several of our beloved crutches (not only CC, they will use their normal attack against the spot where you turned invisible). And together they become more formidable than "just the sum of their parts". Even so we have lots and lots of equipment and abilities to handle them, in different ways, but we generally have to play more actively (and re-actively) when Ancients are present. They are very good at countering two common player behaviors: "standing still and farming with abilities and/or AoE" (where they hook and kill you anyway, most often by disregarding your CC) and "mindless repetitive melee button mashing" (which they break with their hook attack, knockdown and procs because "the tell" was ignored). At (very) high level endurance missions the squad needs a designed/designated way to deal with them (with "mobs of Ancients" to be precise), but that is a different topic.

So my initial point was that your suggested changes are nerfs that taken together would destroy the Ancient's status as "respected enemies". That would be a big loss for Warframe and bad for Warframe as a game. If anything, we really, really need more enemies that we need to respect that way, otherwise Warframe will turn into a META-based farming simulator.

On a slight tangent, I would like to see the new Ancient Healers "(re)buffed" so that the Overguard shield they grant their allies would be pulse-based, but with an individual Overguard-cooldown for enemies that have already been affected. Ancient Healers could that way re-apply Overguard to allies within range every X seconds ("Overguard-pulse"), but it would (re)apply to units only if 60(?) seconds had passed since that ally last had an Overguard-effect applied. This would have three game-playing "effects":

1. Make Ancient Healers top priority targets again, which in turn (re-)introduces a certain need of "gaming awareness" (rewarding skill and punishing AFK).
2. It would turn any "Overguarded" normal unit into a micro-priority target (remove Overguard AND make sure it dies, before Overguard can be re-applied).
3. It would sync quite well with us using our own Ancient Healer specter and getting the same effect applied to us (in some version/amount, since a Tenno Overguard at 9X Health might be a bit OP?).

[Frendh]

I had no issues with Ancients prior to overguard. They were a threat but considering how squishy infested are compared to the other factions infested is really in need of some high threat units. I would say Ancients + ospreys + mutalist moa is not too much for the infested faction. Disregarding overguard.

[Yasha-7HS]

@Graavarg

It seems I'll just have to agree to disagree. I have to assume you've ignored most of what I mentioned in the original post.

You go on in your latest post to explain that grappling hooks themselves are not the problem, and then say that the additional damage that they do is the problem. I don't understand your meaning, as it seems you're either contradicting yourself or saying exactly as I said in the original post.

The auras reducing, or in extreme cases, negating CC is specifically what I do not have a problem with. That makes them a high priority target. My issue is them being able to cast the grappling hook in un-intuitive ways that include breaking animation steps, ignoring model facing directions, and casting the ability before even getting up from knockdown effects/while ragdolled. This makes the ability sometimes impossible to react to, and has nothing to do with ability reduction as an idea. It may have something to do with the code allowing these abilities to be cast when it makes no sense for them to be able to cast it.

It would be fine if they simply got up or recovered faster, and then cast grappling hook with its proper animation. But they do not in many cases.

Toxic Ancients do have an attack where they will breathe a toxin cloud that has high damage, yes. Unfortunately, it works little in the way you've described, and they will in-fact use it at range when they know you're approaching based on trajectory analysis. This is one of the more well designed attacks, as it has a good tell, limited range, and extreme damage in combination with their aura effect that reduces resistance to toxin. It's very reasonable to dodge this ability, and it's punishing if you elect to ignore it.

However, everything you've said about them being well designed is incorrect. Their normal attacks generally do not hit, as their heavy knockback is too slow. Their arm extension attack's hitbox is shorter than the model itself, and so it will often not hit as well. This is why I believe you didn't read the original post, as I specifically state this:

On 2022-05-25 at 7:32 AM, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

Basic infested units should have more speed(both an increase in movement and a reduction in animation duration), and have the ability to attack while moving. This makes it possible for Chargers, Leapers and Runners to hit players, as they're currently incapable of even damaging a frame that's walking in a small circle.

They counter Warframes that don't have the ability to become immune to damage or have AoE damage effects that can wipe the map while they sit in a corner. AKA, they counter a frame that needs to think about surviving via moving at feverish paces and spamming abilities while being reasonably close the the enemy by draining all of their energy and potentially killing them in one hit with an attack that shouldn't be happening in many situations. Hell, there are times where they hit Titania in her Razorwing while she still has active flies. You know who they don't counter?

A Rhino with Iron Skin using a Bramma. Invisible Ash using a Bramma. Invisible Loki, using a Bramma. Invisible Octavia, using a Bramma. Invisible Ivara, using a silenced Bramma. Wisp flying around with a Bramma. Inaros using a Bramma. That's perhaps the most boring line-up of character choices possible in this game, and it's what Ancients enforce.

The Ancients aren't to be "respected" because they do anything special outside of aura effects, or give any sort of reasonable challenge, they're "respected" because half the animations that should bind them don't work, evasion means little, and they are the ONLY enemy in the faction that does ANYTHING by using one garbage attack that one shots you. That is what makes Ancients an example of balance failure.

Had you read, you would know that's why I state specifically to buff the entire faction so that all the units are reasonably threatening, which would be a good change for Warframe as a whole instead of an entire faction relying on a singular, buggy one shot attack in a sea of oddly colored potatoes with legs that are incapable of dealing damage to all. There are sometimes infested Arbitration survivals that bug out and spawn no Ancients what-so-ever. If you manage to get one, please note how often you ever feel threatened by a group of 40 or more chargers, leapers, runners, Moas, Ospreys, and Boilers. You won't, because none of them are able to even catch you walking backwards while aiming. THAT is what's bad for Warframe.

[Tiltskillet]

From the devstream today, they're adding more counterplay to the hook attacks of scorpions and ancients, which will no longer knock down as soon as they collide.  The method they showed was bullet jumping after being hit by the hook, which inflicted a knockdown/drag on the scorpion.  They mentioned that you can also melee the line, presumably to break it and recover. 

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

From the devstream today, they're adding more counterplay to the hook attacks of scorpions and ancients, which will no longer knock down as soon as they collide.  The method they showed was bullet jumping after being hit by the hook, which inflicted a knockdown/drag on the scorpion.  They mentioned that you can also melee the line, presumably to break it and recover. 

Yeah but.... All that does is Maintain the Status Quo.... Where's the Actual Counter that allows you to turn the Tables on these Bastards ? 😭

 

[Graavarg]

20 hours ago, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

My issue is them being able to cast the grappling hook in un-intuitive ways that include breaking animation steps, ignoring model facing directions, and casting the ability before even getting up from knockdown effects/while ragdolled. This makes the ability sometimes impossible to react to, and has nothing to do with ability reduction as an idea.

 

On 2022-05-25 at 1:32 PM, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

In return for buffing the less useful enemies of the faction, we nerf grappling hook to not be a cheap one shot ability.

 

  Hide contents

1. No longer apply the Aura effects of Ancients.
2. Maximum fire angle is clamped to 75 degrees of the model's facing direction. i.e., they can no longer fire grapples through their own chest, behind themselves in order to hit you.
3. Does not scale in damage
4. Has collision with other Infested Units
5. Will break and stop pulling upon losing LoS. i.e., no more pulling through walls
6. Can only be used by one Ancient within 25 meters
7. Has a global cooldown of 15-20 seconds
8. Has a cast time of 1.5-2 seconds, and a sound associated with channeling the ability
9. Should not be cast when the player is moving towards the enemy
10. Should prioritize being cast when the player is in the air, ignoring change 9
11. Have significant reduction in accuracy when the player is moving, sliding, and rolling

I would also like to recommend a very particular change. Grappling Hooks should not knock down the player, but instead stay attached until the player rolls or melees.

I am not sure how I misunderstood? My point has nothing to do with the Infested as a whole, it only covers the "nerf the Ancients"-part. I don't like the idea of nerfing/destroying one of the few enemies that we grudgingly respect. Giving the cannon fodder a "little more" does not, in any way, compensate for nerfing Ancients.

But according to yesterday's DevStream it unfortunately now seems DE will do just this, so you'll get at the least part of the nerf you called for. The knock-down will be removed/delayed, instead giving YOU the chance to "rip-down" the enemy that hooked you (Ancients and Scorpions) by doing a bullet jump. I don't mind the added "skill"-part (intuitive bullet jump when hooked), but I abhor the nerf-part. If DE continues to appease the part of the playerbase that wants everything to be as easy and danger-free as possible maybe they should copyright the brand name "WIMPframe" for future use instead (of Soulframe). Since there isn't much "war" or "soul" in the underlying assumption that if you are downed there is something wrong with the game, and something seriously, horribly wrong if you actually fail a mission.

The "unintuitiveness" you describe occasionally occurs, but since it is occasional and the tell is generally visible I've put it down to sync issues. I have never "researched" if this occurs less often when being host or when soloing, it's just been one of those myriad things happening when playing online games. And since Ancients are best handled by keeping a little distance anyway, it's not that big of a problem.

I have no problem with disagreement, as differing views is fuel for progress and enlightenment. That is, of course, including facts and logic as general rules and with the participants having a generally open mind. Otherwise differing views are simply "beliefs" and lead to polarisation, demagogery and general idiocy. I tried to point this out, since your initial post was well written, cohesive, and based on logic and facts. I just think that (logically and factually) there are more (and more dire) consequences than those you list. and they arise from removing/nerfing threatening enemies, which in turn removes our respect, which makes the game more bland, less exciting and rewarding to play and overall worse. 

On an explanatory tangent: if, as DE claims, the ongoing changes are geared towards increasing "playability" by adding attack tells and creating an enemy pool that needs active and selective "targeting" (instead of just "spam-bramma'ing" everything to pieces) it is of course a good thing. But it seems to me that so far all this ends up as (unnecessary) nerfs all around. This in turn seems linked to a business model more geared towards "continuous player gratification and then... nothing". Over the last years when "new content for more experienced players" have been added, it has generally been substantially nerfed a short time later. This makes it seem like DE is now driven by "marketing" and "social media response", which if true is a very real existential threat towards Warframe's continuing existence. Any experienced gamer have seen such game-killing symptoms before: (1) applying standard (but "online-game"-faulty) market logic to increase revenue, (2) leading to increased hype (that seldom if ever delivers), (3) leading to an increased focus on "not actually game content" (cosmetics, player ladders etc. that doesn't risk "not living up to gaming expectations"), (4) an increased fear of negative reactions (which threatens "the house of cards" being built), (5) inducing hyper-sensitivity to social media (which is now more potent than ever), which (6) leads to "bribing" the playerbase (by giving them "more for less", including making everything easier). Any longtime gamer could also write down a fairly long list of "once-upon-a-time excellent games" to show how all this ends, but let's just say "longevity" is not the buzzword, rather the anti-thesis.

 

[(PSN)Braindeadrat75]

So since the Eximus and scorpion upgrade ancients are even worse then before. I've also noticed an increase in ancients in endless missions. They are a cheap enemy that needs a reduction in the number u face in a mission, especially solo. I usually go to infested to level weapons and frames cause prior to buffs they were relatively easy to kill. Now after the 5 min mark I see about 15 ancients per area all trying to tether at once. Bad design bad enemy but DE doesn't care about our input on them as they have been the biggest reason people dont do missions with infested. Give them separate mechanics instead of the same thing. Not that it will happen anyway.

[Kaichi16]

i just play lavos in any infested mission. 

disruptors energy drain is ridiculous.