Dissipate nerf: DE nerfs everything except what should be nerfed because theyve designed themselves into a corner, creatively and financially

[trst]

50 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

fun fact: the reason why people use zenurik is because warframe's energy economy is garbage. without zenurik or energize, you don't get to use abilities. that's why people use them. it was a good thing that something is better than zenurik. if they wanted people to use the other schools they need to either make energy economy better or revert emergence dissipate to how it was before.

yeah sure some frames like limbo garuda and harrow can counter it but limbo needs to afk in the rift, garuda needs to sacrifice half her health, and harrow needs energy to even do it

More fun fact: unless you're using Blind Rage with no efficiency or a build where you do nothing but mash ability buttons then all the other energy generation methods are just as viable as those two.

Rage works well with any healing method, Deth Cube's augment is shockingly reliable (and is tanky enough to last in all but endless SP), Dissipate is still fine in any high density mission or with grouping abilities, then you have frame abilities/augments that generate energy and a few are even subsumable. And you can still slap together multiple of these to utlize high cost/spam builds while still not having to use Zenurik or Energize.

The energy economy system is absolute trash but there are more viable options for managing it then Zenurik and Arcane Energize.

[Karsaros]

21 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

My god youre annoying. But nah im definitely right about my criticisms, and anyone thats ever played any other video game besides warframe—most of which quit because they come to similar conclusions, which in summary can be described as “this game sucks”—likely agrees with me because they’re not brown nose try hards who feel compelled to defend a notoriously incompetent studio—especially among even their own playerbase—because the thought that the thing they like is actually pretty dumb is understandably a bit too much to handle for players who are similarly notorious for being cultish in their devotion to said game, lacking any identity outside of that game for whatever reason. Enjoy your mediocrity

Honestly the only reason im still playing this game fully a wear of its obvious flaws and their unwillingness to address them is because I unfortunately am a completionist and until I've mastered everything in the game as well as have every mod I wont consider myself as "Finished", this is actually a serious problem for me.

[gamingchair1121]

27 minutes ago, Vortex said:

no one want to play your single target fantasy.

wait so is it just me that enjoys using single target over aoe

[Karsaros]

1 minute ago, gamingchair1121 said:

wait so is it just me that enjoys using single target over aoe

Nope not just you I specifically avoid AoE weapons because it Trivializes the entire game.

[gamingchair1121]

Just now, Karsaros said:

Nope not just you I specifically avoid AoE weapons because it Trivializes the entire game.

yeah thats one of the reasons why and aoe is boring

the only time I do use aoe over single target is leveling frames because screw that

kills per second over fun

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Honestly, as much as I disagree with the current combat state of the new Eximi, the fact they now drop 1 energy and 2 health orbs guaranteed is pretty nice. Add Equilibrium to that and that's a reasonable chunk of energy dropped each time you pop one. At least if you're comparing it against Zenurik, you've got what, 16 seconds of the passive generation with a single kill?

Oh really? That's nice! I'll have to read the patch notes.

Yeah, I don't know. I've been using Equilibrium on my ESO Naramon Khora build for years now. And I probably generate the vast majority of energy from health orbs! But I also build for redundancy too. She's got Fleeting Expertise, a Rakta Dark Dagger with +Blight effect, a Dethcube Prime (spreads Synth), Dispensary and even R5 Energize. But there was a time before Helminth where I didn't have Dispensary or R5 Energize and she could solo 8 rounds of ESO. You do have to be more careful with energy economy (no pizzas allowed in ESO).

[BIGF0O7]

3 minutes ago, Karsaros said:

Nope not just you I specifically avoid AoE weapons because it Trivializes the entire game.

This is central to my reasoning for drawing the distinction between dissipate and aoe meta. One enhances the strengths of the game, where as rhe other, as you very correctly described, completely trivializes the game. We might as well be playing a turnbased jrpg if the main point of warframe is “fire weapon in direction and watch big numbers appear”

[TeaHands]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

Yes, again, you are extremely annoying. All you’ve offered in the entirety of our exchange is, essentially, “nuh uh”. Why would I be nice to you lol? 

I've explained how Dissipate is still in a good place. But since I'm not reassuring you every step of the way that your opinion is still precious and valid even if you're wrong, I guess that amounts to "nuh uh".

Also, I never said you should be nice to me? 

[BIGF0O7]

10 minutes ago, Karsaros said:

Honestly the only reason im still playing this game fully a wear of its obvious flaws and their unwillingness to address them is because I unfortunately am a completionist and until I've mastered everything in the game as well as have every mod I wont consider myself as "Finished", this is actually a serious problem for me.

Yeah i super feel you, which is why stuff like this is extremely frustrating. It has such a good foundation for engaging gameplay with its movement, frames, weapons etc but it very quickly becomes animal crossing but with way more steps. Its a horrible, horrible waste of what could otherwise be one of the best games of all time

[RichardKam]

12分钟前 , (NSW)squirtpig 说:

1.5 second cooldown is absolutely not nothing, especially in the only situations where dissipate was actually useful, like high enemy density content that now nets a fraction of what it did before in 5 times as long of a time frame as it used to.

That "as long of a time" is 1.5 seconds. Not 1.5 minutes.

Maybe it means a lot to rushframe. I can't say for others, but for me it really is......nothing. Even energize has a cool down period of an unholy 15 seconds.

[BIGF0O7]

3 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

I've explained how Dissipate is still in a good place. But since I'm not reassuring you every step of the way that your opinion is still precious and valid even if you're wrong, I guess that amounts to "nuh uh".

Also, I never said you should be nice to me? 

And ive explained to you why it isnt, to which, again, all youve offered is “nuh uh”. You havent “explained” anything. All youve done at every step is respond to what ive written line by line and said “no”. Very engaging stuff. Again, you are extremely annoying and continue to be so. 

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

14 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

wait so is it just me that enjoys using single target over aoe

i like using Single target or non AoE weapons (like high RoF guns). but ill still use AoE if i need to quickly do stuff.

Ash atm is one of my favorite warframes, mainly the Fatal Teleport. but if i need to get stuff done fast its either Garuda or a tanky frame like Hildryn.

 

i have been trying to try out all types of weapons and warframes and its honestly more fun than using wukong+zarr. (how i used to play due to it being a crutch and was afraid to use my other weapons/warframes due to lack of faith they would be strong enough for me to use).

 

Edit: i am a solo player usely, i just find it more fun.

[BIGF0O7]

1 minute ago, RichardKam said:

That "as long of a time" is 1.5 seconds. Not 1.5 minutes.

Maybe it means a lot to rushframe. I can't say for others, but for me it really is......nothing. Even energize has a cool down period of an unholy 15 seconds.

Yeah i mean if you’re just doing casual origin system runs then sure, im sure its fine. Im trying to do stuff that dissipate was very, very useful in and simply isnt now. 

[Karsaros]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

This is central to my reasoning for drawing the distinction between dissipate and aoe meta. One enhances the strengths of the game, where as rhe other, as you very correctly described, completely trivializes the game. We might as well be playing a turnbased jrpg if the main point of warframe is “fire weapon in direction and watch big numbers appear”

To be honest I currently use the Incarnon Weapons Assault Rifle Primary plus the secondary and the Pathocyst (And farming that thing is an absolute nightmare) for melee because I use Nidus mostly, The reason why I use those two Incarnons is because they do a phenomenal job at where DE SHOULD be going they do amazing single target output when fully evolved and if you want my opinion on AOE weapons I think the area effected by them should be increased by 500% but the damage done reduced by 80% This would effectively solve the blast meta entirely and suddenly choice actually matters again.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

That "as long of a time" is 1.5 seconds. Not 1.5 minutes.

Maybe it means a lot to rushframe. I can't say for others, but for me it really is......nothing. Even energize has a cool down period of an unholy 15 seconds.

Energise: 15 seconds cooldown for a proc of +150 energy.
Which means 1.5 seconds of cooldown is worth 15 energy.

Which means Dissipate's enegy-over-cooldown surpasses Energise's net energy-over-cooldown-period at consistent usage against two affected units.

How tragically useless.

[Josh486]

2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Energise: 15 seconds cooldown for a proc of +150 energy.
Which means 1.5 seconds of cooldown is worth 15 energy.

Which means Dissipate's enegy-over-cooldown surpasses Energise's net energy-over-cooldown-period at consistent usage against two affected units.

How tragically useless.

That's not a fair comparison at all. Even if this nerf was kind of inevitable. Energize is a passive energy source that requires no input or build around, you put it on the build, you get more juice. Dissipate requires activity and conditional with enemy density

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Energise: 15 seconds cooldown for a proc of +150 energy.
Which means 1.5 seconds of cooldown is worth 15 energy.

Which means Dissipate's enegy-over-cooldown surpasses Energise's net energy-over-cooldown-period at consistent usage against two affected units.

How tragically useless.

I'm sorry to say this, but if you don't see how your argument is complete and utter nonsense, your opinion is tragically useless.

Energise is in effect passively, while you play the game. Using Dissipate on cooldown requires you to sit in Void Mode, doing nothing of value. You might want to google the term "opportunity cost".

[RichardKam]

7分钟前 , Josh486 说:

That's not a fair comparison at all. Even if this nerf was kind of inevitable. Energize is a passive energy source that requires no input or build around, you put it on the build, you get more juice. Dissipate requires activity and conditional with enemy density

BUT.......energize requires the presence of an energy orb. While for dissipate, you can get energy right off the start without killing anything.

BUT WAIT......energize also gives energy to your allies around you.

BUT, HERE'S MORE......dissipate free up one of your warframe arcane slot for your theorem contagion!

From the way I see it, they are like apple and orange. Both are fine in a way.

[TeaHands]

20 minutes ago, (NSW)squirtpig said:

And ive explained to you why it isnt, to which, again, all youve offered is “nuh uh”. You havent “explained” anything. All youve done at every step is respond to what ive written line by line and said “no”. Very engaging stuff. Again, you are extremely annoying and continue to be so. 

What a beautiful back and forth we have, I point out you're wrong. All you can do is say I'm annoying and then make an incorrect assumption. And just like that, the tango starts all over again.

Dissipate is still very useful, has little to no risk when using it as long as you don't mindlessly spam and lose track of your operator's energy. Even if you do you can quickly regain your energy and return to void mode thanks to Dissipate.

Pre nerf Dissipate was very obviously broken and Post nerf Dissipate is still very useful. But maybe it's best to have people think it's in a bad place so it doesn't get nerfed again lol.

 

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

From the way I see it, they are like apple and orange. Both are fine in a way.

The way I see it, both were fine in their own way. Now Dissipate is no longer a viable replacement for Energize. Especially with Eximus dropping a guaranteed energy orb.

[RichardKam]

刚才 , Traumtulpe 说:

The way I see it, both were fine in their own way. Now Dissipate is no longer a viable replacement for Energize. Especially with Eximus dropping a guaranteed energy orb.

"No longer a viable replacement for energize" is too strong a statement, in my opinion. But different people play differently, I can understand that.

And if most people consider 1.5 sec delay is a great nerf, I will be looking forward to the market crash of dissipate wholeheartedly😀

[TheLexiConArtist]

19 minutes ago, Josh486 said:

That's not a fair comparison at all. Even if this nerf was kind of inevitable. Energize is a passive energy source that requires no input or build around, you put it on the build, you get more juice. Dissipate requires activity and conditional with enemy density

13 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I'm sorry to say this, but if you don't see how your argument is complete and utter nonsense, your opinion is tragically useless.

Energise is in effect passively, while you play the game. Using Dissipate on cooldown requires you to sit in Void Mode, doing nothing of value. You might want to google the term "opportunity cost".

Besides the obvious hyperbole given the OP, you're right, it's not a fair comparison.

Because Energise has a chance to proc and requires an orb, so it's less likely to proc on-cooldown and (generation abilities notwithstanding) you have to actively keep seeking out more containers / killing more enemies in order to get your next Orb. All while you can 'wastefully' pick up your potential orbs during the cooldown, further skewing the efficacy of uptime.

And because Dissipate isn't restricted to proccing only once per cooldown, nor do you have to use it on minimal targets. You can bounce between three groups of enemies in that window and you're leveraging three distinct cooldown periods. You can opportunistically use it when the payoff is greater so you wouldn't need to spam it on the equivalent two enemies every 1.5 seconds. You don't need to find new entities per trigger but you can.

So it's likely even more favourable to Dissipate.

 

And then there's Zenurik. 5/sec equivalent to 7.5/cooldown of Dissipate. It's as reliable, it has low payout, but it lasts a while,. There's a clear tradeoff between potential gain and passivity there, as there always has been.

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

So it's likely even more favourable to Dissipate.

Maybe play the game sometime instead of peddling your theoretical thoughts on the forum? Using Energize (and maybe Primed Flow) means you don't have to worry about energy period. Now moreso than ever with the guaranteed energy orb drops.

Using Dissipate requires you to do things you don't want to do, things that do not contribute to the mission. Like going into Operator, like using Void Sling. And in a group, chances are by the time you are sending out your Void Sling marker, the enemies are already dead thanks to your party member who uses Energize and a Bramma.

Dissipate after the nerf is not useless, but a lot worse than Energize.

[BIGF0O7]

28 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

What a beautiful back and forth we have, I point out you're wrong. All you can do is say I'm annoying and then make an incorrect assumption. And just like that, the tango starts all over again.

Dissipate is still very useful, has little to no risk when using it as long as you don't mindlessly spam and lose track of your operator's energy. Even if you do you can quickly regain your energy and return to void mode thanks to Dissipate.

Pre nerf Dissipate was very obviously broken and Post nerf Dissipate is still very useful. But maybe it's best to have people think it's in a bad place so it doesn't get nerfed again lol.

 

But you havent *pointed out* that im wrong, youve just said im wrong and thats it. Even in this comment, you continue to do. “pre nerf dissipate was very obviously broken and post nerf dissipate is still very useful.” 
 

That isnt an explanation or “pOiNtIng OuT” anything, its just a statement lol. 
 

you’re annoying not because youre bad at communicating (nevermind debating), but because you have a profoundly impressive lack of self awareness and matching confidence that is really something to behold when you are so frustratingly wrong to the effect that im starting to doubt youve even used it either before the change or since. Very much seems you just read the wiki without trying it yourself and said “that seems fine!” And are now just trolling me for the forum rep, which, cool i guess dude?
 

Dissipate was only viable *because* of its spammability, and it certainly isnt now in its absence. Like, if slowing down the fight to sit in operator mode for 30 seconds in void mode to generate a fraction of the energy you used to be able do in a fraction of the time is your idea of fun, again and full circle, im glad at least one of us is having fun with it since the change. Just wish i was as easily satisfied as you, but, again, i dont seem to have as high of a threshold for bad design as you do. To each their own i suppose

[Traumtulpe]

24 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

And then there's Zenurik. 5/sec equivalent to 7.5/cooldown of Dissipate. It's as reliable, it has low payout, but it lasts a while,. There's a clear tradeoff between potential gain and passivity there, as there always has been.

Again, you don't appear to understand the concept of opportunity cost. Zenurik's Wellspring gives you >150 energy for the same opportunity cost of a single cast of Dissipate. Except with Dissipate you still have to collect the orbs which are all over the place and float away.