So uh, how's Gyre doin?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The thing isI'm talking about Gyre in general, shes an overall weak frame with a better choice in other frames of similar kind. 

Balance is the only thing that can allow for proper testing. There is no excuse to have the gap we have between frames.

I have a very hard time believing you used her kit aside from her #3 + a heavy hitting weapon to kill kuva fortress enemies with her in 1 second on SP. Which just proves my point, shes another weapon platform with 1 useful skill and terrible survivability.

Pretty vague answer.

I'm asking you for specifics and you can't even answer the question.

Is any warframe that can't do defense solo obsolete? 

[quxier]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Balance is the only thing that can allow for proper testing. There is no excuse to have the gap we have between frames.

Yeah, sure, but we shouldn't make normal star chart trivialized. I see people that is asking for "balance for SP" to just completely melt every enemy. That makes game boring.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I have a very hard time believing you used her kit aside from her #3 + a heavy hitting weapon to kill kuva fortress enemies with her in 1 second on SP. Which just proves my point, shes another weapon platform with 1 useful skill and terrible survivability.

I meant Yareli with Aquablades.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Is any warframe that can't do defense solo obsolete? 

What does that have to do with anything?

This is about frame to frame, when one is surpassed by another that can do the same thing better the one that is worse becomes obsolete. What you talk about are different roles, different tools for the job etc. Where within those tools one can be obsolete compared to another. Kinda like a screwdriver vs a electrical screwdriver, or a drill vs an electrical drill, hammer+nail vs a nailgun etc. They fullfill the same role for a job, one is simply better.

17 hours ago, quxier said:

Yeah, sure, but we shouldn't make normal star chart trivialized. I see people that is asking for "balance for SP" to just completely melt every enemy. That makes game boring.

I meant Yareli with Aquablades.

But that is already the case, so they might aswell balance things around something in some way. Heck I'm open to buffing the lower performing frames by nerfing the higher performing ones to make star chart more relevant without a need for steel path.

Yeah, that makes me doubt what you say even more since Aquablades have problems with killing even infested in Steel Path on a very heavy strength build. Or do you mean with the augment? Which requires a ramp up and manual activation that might aswell be used firing your gun.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah, that makes me doubt what you say even more since Aquablades have problems with killing even infested in Steel Path on a very heavy strength build.

From my experience Aquablades is good against Grineers and bad against infested. Not exactly sure about Corpus (those nullies are bad for Aquablades imho). Aquablades needs status to proc. Infested (Ancients afair) protect enemies from procs and another one reduce damage. Without those units Aquablades kills them as well.

From other people experience they were doing fine against infested but they were using Yareli's 4th to kill Ancients. I've tried some SP Incursions with infested and there were many Ancients for me. In that case I don't think Yareli's kit would do anything.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that is already the case, so they might aswell balance things around something in some way. Heck I'm open to buffing the lower performing frames by nerfing the higher performing ones to make star chart more relevant without a need for steel path.

I'm more into Star-chart being "normal challenge" where SP being "hard one". Oh, well, there is no point in arguing about it - it's preferences I guess.

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, quxier said:

From my experience Aquablades is good against Grineers and bad against infested. Not exactly sure about Corpus (those nullies are bad for Aquablades imho). Aquablades needs status to proc. Infested (Ancients afair) protect enemies from procs and another one reduce damage. Without those units Aquablades kills them as well.

From other people experience they were doing fine against infested but they were using Yareli's 4th to kill Ancients. I've tried some SP Incursions with infested and there were many Ancients for me. In that case I don't think Yareli's kit would do anything.

I'm more into Star-chart being "normal challenge" where SP being "hard one". Oh, well, there is no point in arguing about it - it's preferences I guess.

I'm talking about regular run of the mill chargers with no ancient healers or anything present to make them status immune, with around 300% strength or so. So that skill killing Grineer at all and in seconds none the less is very unlikely in Steel Path.

And what does "normal challenge" vs "hard one" matter regarding if there should be a unified balance or not? I dont think I ever argued which was what. There is just a massive gap between frames and their kits.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

So that skill killing Grineer at all and in seconds none the less is very unlikely in Steel Path.

From this post:

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm talking about regular run of the mill chargers with no ancient healers or anything present to make them status immune, with around 300% strength or so.

I'm not sure how you cannot kill them. Charger has:

 

Quote

 

EHP

10 735,57

Steel Path EHP

26 838,92

 

at 155 level. In Ballroom simulacrum I just roll through 20 enemies and they just die. No Roar and no Viral needed at all. On SP you should be able to kill them as well. They have just  ~1.6 more HP.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And what does "normal challenge" vs "hard one" matter regarding if there should be a unified balance or not? I dont think I ever argued which was what. There is just a massive gap between frames and their kits.

The problem is game has many "damage abilities". If DE balance those around SP then non-SP will be trivial.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, quxier said:

From this post:

 

I'm not sure how you cannot kill them. Charger has:

 

at 155 level. In Ballroom simulacrum I just roll through 20 enemies and they just die. No Roar and no Viral needed at all. On SP you should be able to kill them as well. They have just  ~1.6 more HP.

The problem is game has many "damage abilities". If DE balance those around SP then non-SP will be trivial.

But can you please focus? I already said that with the augment you can kill things yes, but not with the spinning crap blade that is aquablades. I also said that you might aswell just use a gun if you plan on using the augment, since it does the same thing with more steps and costs. That is what the cideo shows, an augmented aquablade, not some swirly twirly blade wasting grineer in a second, which is what you claimed.

The same applies to chargers. It takes several seconds even with high strength investments to kill them in entry level steel path. This is due to how the blades work and the rules that apply to them, such as an internal CD of 0.5 seconds if all the blades hit a target, which is ontop of the low damage of them.

And non-SP is already trivial, so what would be the difference? We cant kill things in less than 1-hit, so nothing would really change. We'd still run around in the trivial low level fissures and missions 1HKing everything just as now, but we'd atleast have a more streamlined roster for higher content, where the gaps between frame power isnt so massive. Especially when this is about a handful of frames that have kits that scale so poorly out a total of 50 that using their skills is practically pointless.

Volt for instance scales horribly when it comes to his AoE damage, but the skills bring something else for him in return, like reliable constant CC and shield replenishment, and a nice crit damage buff among other things. Gyre just deals damage, and her AoE damage is as poor as Volt's in higher levels, her kit also lacks the utility that Volt comes with, both regarding sustain aswell as CC. And dont get me started on Yareli, that does some fusion bad fusion of titania and vauban CC, while lacking damage and survivability overall. She also has an identity crisis of what role to actually play, up close and personal super squishy melee frame, or ride around on a fishstick pew pew pewing with her secondary? In either case several parts of her kit get neglected since it syncs for S#&$.

[quxier]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But can you please focus? I already said that with the augment you can kill things yes, but not with the spinning crap blade that is aquablades. I also said that you might aswell just use a gun if you plan on using the augment, since it does the same thing with more steps and costs. That is what the cideo shows, an augmented aquablade, not some swirly twirly blade wasting grineer in a second, which is what you claimed.

Ok, my mistake. I watched it in crapy quality and I haven't seen that he shoot stuffs (augment). Once again, sorry.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The same applies to chargers. It takes several seconds even with high strength investments to kill them in entry level steel path. This is due to how the blades work and the rules that apply to them, such as an internal CD of 0.5 seconds if all the blades hit a target, which is ontop of the low damage of them.

They are meant to "slowly" kill. It's "touch & go" game. You want faster kills? Use Roar and/or Viral. With ~300 strength + Roar (~90% damage) I've been more or less melting Chargers.

Those Stalkee clones dies pretty quickly... unless they turn off my abilities & almost insta kill me.

I wanted to try Grineers but game started to be wonky so no big results. Normal enemies (probably Lancers or Troopers) with Roar + viral and they dies pretty quickly. I haven't found single normal Heavy gunner.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And non-SP is already trivial, so what would be the difference? We cant kill things in less than 1-hit, so nothing would really change. We'd still run around in the trivial low level fissures and missions 1HKing everything just as now, but we'd atleast have a more streamlined roster for higher content, where the gaps between frame power isnt so massive. Especially when this is about a handful of frames that have kits that scale so poorly out a total of 50 that using their skills is practically pointless.

Not every builds can kill everything as efficiency as you think. Some of those that are capable of doing that are very boring aka almost like not game but cookie clicker (e.g. Xaku). I don't want this game to be boring stuffs.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And dont get me started on Yareli, that does some fusion bad fusion of titania and vauban CC, while lacking damage and survivability overall. She also has an identity crisis of what role to actually play, up close and personal super squishy melee frame, or ride around on a fishstick pew pew pewing with her secondary? In either case several parts of her kit get neglected since it syncs for S#&$.

Yeah, Yareli has many issues. I could probably write page about her. Same as Sevagoth. Little less about Caliban. Oh, well, that year (2021) were horrible for frames.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Ok, my mistake. I watched it in crapy quality and I haven't seen that he shoot stuffs (augment). Once again, sorry.

They are meant to "slowly" kill. It's "touch & go" game. You want faster kills? Use Roar and/or Viral. With ~300 strength + Roar (~90% damage) I've been more or less melting Chargers.

Those Stalkee clones dies pretty quickly... unless they turn off my abilities & almost insta kill me.

I wanted to try Grineers but game started to be wonky so no big results. Normal enemies (probably Lancers or Troopers) with Roar + viral and they dies pretty quickly. I haven't found single normal Heavy gunner.

Not every builds can kill everything as efficiency as you think. Some of those that are capable of doing that are very boring aka almost like not game but cookie clicker (e.g. Xaku). I don't want this game to be boring stuffs.

Yeah, Yareli has many issues. I could probably write page about her. Same as Sevagoth. Little less about Caliban. Oh, well, that year (2021) were horrible for frames.

Slowly kill does not fit in WF, especially not when you need to stay at a very perfect range, which also screws with both attacking effectively in melee or at range. Anything beyond or inside the circle of wet noodles wont get hit by those circling wet noodles. And saying to use roar with them doesnt make them better, since that locks you to either use them on Rhino or Yareli only. And it is still just chargers you "melt" at that point with those investments(!). At the same time I melt everything with Lavos, Protea, Saryn, Vauban, Garuda and others with not even near those investments needed, including grineer.

And the acolytes dying fast to Aquablades? How? Do you have some odd aquablades that ignore their own damage limiter and damage caps and the limited slash stacks that can afflict an acolyte? 

Any build invested in kills everything efficiently at star chart levels already, which is why giving Yareli and Gyre more power wouldnt change that. They however do not have that power for SP, so they are on the other side of the gap along with a small group of other frames with lacking kits.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Slowly kill does not fit in WF,

You don't have to sit there watching Aquablades slashing them. Sure for few mission types it's critical to be as fast as possible but other mission can afford to be little slower.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

not when you need to stay at a very perfect range, which also screws with both attacking effectively in melee or at range. Anything beyond or inside the circle of wet noodles wont get hit by those circling wet noodles.

You don't need any perfect range. And, again, you don't need to constantly touching them.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And saying to use roar with them doesnt make them better, since that locks you to either use them on Rhino or Yareli only.

That's very valid point. I hate this kind of argument as well (no energy? Change your favorite sentinel to something else.). However when talking about Yareli she has bad kit and Aquablades are the best ability. So improving Aquablades (by putting Roar) isn't too bad for me. YMMV.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And it is still just chargers you "melt" at that point with those investments(!). At the same time I melt everything with Lavos, Protea, Saryn, Vauban, Garuda and others with not even near those investments needed, including grineer.

What kind of investment? Except endo/credits those mods are very cheap. I haven't bothered fully forma it so I have crapy duration. Except that it's cheap mods (I run 2x Umbra for some HP as well).

Other frames are being better than Yareli? Great. However those investments are nothing.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And the acolytes dying fast to Aquablades? How? Do you have some odd aquablades that ignore their own damage limiter and damage caps and the limited slash stacks that can afflict an acolyte? 

I was surprised as well. It's probably not "your fast" mind you but it's pretty fast for that kind of enemy (4 status procs). I had more problems with the newest enemy/boss (with my gun that kills enemies pretty quickly at that level).

 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, quxier said:

You don't have to sit there watching Aquablades slashing them. Sure for few mission types it's critical to be as fast as possible but other mission can afford to be little slower.

You don't need any perfect range. And, again, you don't need to constantly touching them.

That's very valid point. I hate this kind of argument as well (no energy? Change your favorite sentinel to something else.). However when talking about Yareli she has bad kit and Aquablades are the best ability. So improving Aquablades (by putting Roar) isn't too bad for me. YMMV.

What kind of investment? Except endo/credits those mods are very cheap. I haven't bothered fully forma it so I have crapy duration. Except that it's cheap mods (I run 2x Umbra for some HP as well).

Other frames are being better than Yareli? Great. However those investments are nothing.

I was surprised as well. It's probably not "your fast" mind you but it's pretty fast for that kind of enemy (4 status procs). I had more problems with the newest enemy/boss (with my gun that kills enemies pretty quickly at that level).

 

You very much need perfect range, that is the main drawback with aquablades since it only hits at a certain range, while anything within or outside of that circle is not hit. And what we can afford or not does not speak towards the skill being good, kinda the opposite. 

It doesnt really say much about aquablades that some people find it to be her best skill. I personally dont, I think her #1 is probably her best skill together with her passive and a good secondary. It allows her to stay at range and deal damage atleast. Aquablades is just a massive risk to use since you need to be so close to the enemy and she has the durability of a rice paper.

High investment? As in spending that much on strength to get anything at all out of it and not having it perform very well after that even. Since it sounds like you've slapped +200% strength on her.

And how fast is fast? Because I cannot see any speed at all in Aquablades versus acolytes, even less so if you arent talking about a +200% or higher strength and Roar setup. There just isnt a way because they simply deal too little damage.

[quxier]

51 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You very much need perfect range, that is the main drawback with aquablades since it only hits at a certain range, while anything within or outside of that circle is not hit.

I'm not sure, I don't play Yareli with a ruler in one hand. So I don't get what you mean by saying "perfect range" /sarcasm

54 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It doesnt really say much about aquablades that some people find it to be her best skill. I personally dont, I think her #1 is probably her best skill together with her passive and a good secondary. It allows her to stay at range and deal damage atleast. Aquablades is just a massive risk to use since you need to be so close to the enemy and she has the durability of a rice paper.

First is ok but there is better CC abilities.

And it's not like you cannot... you know use 1 + 2 if you are afraid of some SUPER DUPER HIGH DAMAGE bullet hitting you.

57 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

High investment? As in spending that much on strength to get anything at all out of it and not having it perform very well after that even. Since it sounds like you've slapped +200% strength on her.

Slapping few mods is not high investment. Putting many forma (especially umbra, I've put 1 or 2 on Xaku to get that 200% strength before new arcanes) and using certain gear is high investment. I can go with 2x arcanes (around +!00%) and slaps few Strength mods. while leaving probably 1/2 of slots not used.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And how fast is fast? Because I cannot see any speed at all in Aquablades versus acolytes, even less so if you arent talking about a +200% or higher strength and Roar setup. There just isnt a way because they simply deal too little damage.

Around 16 seconds. I've used my phone so it's not very accurate. I've killed 2 Accolytes to be more accurate but first one were so quick that I haven't used my phone.

Oh, and no viral. Just me and my Aquablades with ~300% strength.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

So we went from arguing about Gyre to arguing about Yareli?

I won't judge, at this point I just want to see how long this is going to go.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, quxier said:

Around 16 seconds. I've used my phone so it's not very accurate. I've killed 2 Accolytes to be more accurate but first one were so quick that I haven't used my phone.

Oh, and no viral. Just me and my Aquablades with ~300% strength.

Yeah that isnt even remotely fast. That is extremely slow. Compare that to 2-3 seconds from Protea's turrets or a couple of ticks from Lavos' #4 or Saryn's spores. Or weapons that just take them out in a single hit.