So uh, how's Gyre doin?

[0_The_F00l]

She is good , but not something that will be meta anytime soon.

I wish I could say she is versatile ... But she isn't , she is very much a glass cannon but lacking upfront damage potential by herself.

She does decent enough CC , but it does need some very minor management to be effective.

Is she in need of changes ? Not really , she is decent , but some changes could help like an option to disable the physics based throws ? They tend to be a detriment more than a feature in most situations, with perhaps a little faster momentum as well.

[Zeclem]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Every? Let's take 3 frames before Gyre.

Yareli:

- cannot use helminth abilities while on merulina

- forced usage of Merulina (abilities are more clunky to use without Merulina)

helminth abilities arent part of an original kit so they dont really count, and "clunkiness" is subjective and also not true. they all retain their casting animations on merulina.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Caliban:

- Cannot use 3rd & 4th while using Razor Gyre (1st)

and who exactly uses razor gyre? its not an ability worth casting to begin with.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Sevagoth (not all):

- one ability does nothing without other (don't remember which one, I just spammed 1+2)

- full meter to transform to Shadow (compare it to better Baruuk's)

- healing ability that bounces you from enemies

these dont relate to your arguments at all however.

also you are wrong on that first one. both abilities do things on their own. 

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Gyre doesn't have such big issues.

and at which point did i say gyre is someone the only bad frame? 

2 hours ago, quxier said:

I think CC in the air is new.

it isnt. 

2 hours ago, quxier said:

When Gyre stands still to boost her damage (excluding activation)?

if you are going to exclude activation of that ability why are not applying that to garuda?

2 hours ago, quxier said:

I get that. You just wanted reasons not to play something. I'm giving you valid but maybe subjective reasons.

i dont need reasons to not play something. what i want is for de to not release frames that are obsolete from the start like they have been doing ever since xaku's release.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Oh, sorry, I mistake augment for 2nd ability for passive. The augment is for 2nd-ary only.

With the augment I wouldn't use Zrphyr with Chakharr.

with Airburst_Rounds

dont use airburst rounds then. not like that replaces your crit passive.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

16 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

 

"dont need reasons to not play something. what i want is for de to not release frames that are obsolete from the start like they have been doing ever since xaku's release."

They aren't. They just aren't all made for you personally.

With over 45 frames, some will be for you, and some will be for the other 60,000 players.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

helminth abilities arent part of an original kit so they dont really count

IMHO they matter

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

and "clunkiness" is subjective and also not true. they all retain their casting animations on merulina.

Have you tried using abilities (especially 3 & 4) while on Merulina AND not on Merulina? While not Merulina, those 2 abilities stuck you in one place till animations end. On Merulina as soon you cast you can move.

Usage of word "clunkiness" might be subjective but things like "not being able to move/attack" is (objective) statement.

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

4 hours ago, quxier said:

 

and who exactly uses razor gyre? its not an ability worth casting to begin with.

It doesn't matter if it's wort it. It's in original kit.

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

these dont relate to your arguments at all however.

why?

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

also you are wrong on that first one. both abilities do things on their own. 

One ability used to do so little that I think posted about joining them.

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

and at which point did i say gyre is someone the only bad frame? 

I don't know. I just said that Gyre doesn't have big issues NOT that she is only bad frame. I'm not sure why you are saying this.

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

I think CC in the air is new.

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

it isnt. 

Oh? Then why don't you... you know... post the name?

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

if you are going to exclude activation of that ability why are not applying that to garuda?

Because activation is time between key press & ability starts to "work" (you get buff, store damage ala Garuda etc). Including such part would make e.g. Garuda's 1st deal massive damage with just 2 "activation".

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

dont use airburst rounds then. not like that replaces your crit passive.

Sure but that's one reason not to use Zephyr.

I'm trying to say that every frame has pros & cons (even subjective).

[Zeclem]

13 hours ago, quxier said:

why?

because some frames being "clunky" does not change the fact that gyre is obsolete. 

it does not matter if she is fun, because thats a subjective statement. her being obsolete is not.

13 hours ago, quxier said:

I don't know. I just said that Gyre doesn't have big issues NOT that she is only bad frame. I'm not sure why you are saying this.

because you are listing other meh frames in defense of gyre, as if their situation justifies hers. it does not.

13 hours ago, quxier said:

Oh? Then why don't you... you know... post the name?

larva. bastille. tornado. strangledome. there are plenty of abilities will keep an enemy cc'd in air, this is not some super new fancy thing.

13 hours ago, quxier said:

Because activation is time between key press & ability starts to "work" (you get buff, store damage ala Garuda etc). Including such part would make e.g. Garuda's 1st deal massive damage with just 2 "activation".

okay so you dont really play garuda i see. 

you dont need to store damage with her 1 to nuke things. or you need to use your 1 at all to massively increase your dps at all, using the dread mirror is just a nuke on top of the already ridicilous amount of dps your ult adds.

13 hours ago, quxier said:

Sure but that's one reason not to use Zephyr.

her having one augment thats not mandatory for anything is a reason to not use zephyr? thats not how that works, that augment is very much optional. you dont need it for her kit to function.

13 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm trying to say that every frame has pros & cons (even subjective).

and the fact is gyre's pros are not there when compared with her competition. subjective things like "fun" does not count here.

since you are for some reason trying to grasp at straws here to make a point that isnt really there i am not going to respond any further. its getting pretty tiring honestly.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

it does not matter if she is fun, because thats a subjective statement. her being obsolete is not.

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

subjective things like "fun" does not count here.

That's completely wrong.

Sure, "fun" aspect is subjective but it exists for some people. I'm not using last 3 frames because of those things I listed (except Yareli because she is or was effective Grineer farmer). So we cannot completely ignore it.

"Obsoletness" is wrong because some people use it. I proved that I can finish mission high level content so she cannot be obsolete. Less powerful? Sure.

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

larva. bastille. tornado. strangledome. there are plenty of abilities will keep an enemy cc'd in air, this is not some super new fancy thing.

How many keeps them around one point? Bastile & Strangledome keeps them apart. Bastile's "suck" function cannot be activated in the air (unless I missed it somehow in my testings). Larva can keep them in the air but it's hard pick exact point. Gyre is better at this (sadly her duration suck).

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

okay so you dont really play garuda i see. 

you dont need to store damage with her 1 to nuke things. or you need to use your 1 at all to massively increase your dps at all, using the dread mirror is just a nuke on top of the already ridicilous amount of dps your ult adds.

"Don't use" argument is silly. I could say that Gyre is super strong if you bring good weapon or Helminth some ability.

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

her having one augment thats not mandatory for anything is a reason to not use zephyr? thats not how that works, that augment is very much optional. you dont need it for her kit to function.

And I'm talking about pros & cons (even subjective one).

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

and the fact is gyre's pros are not there when compared with her competition

There are some pros. For example Gyre doesn't have reduced gravity and can add crit while on the ground.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

Idk why you are all arguing about Zephyr and Gyre, but if I was to compare Zephyr to another frame, it would be Mag because both frames involve grouping up frames and then shooting what they are trapped in (either the bubble or the tornado) to do tons of damage by getting hit repeatedly, not Gyre.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2022-06-26 at 4:47 PM, quxier said:

"Obsoletness" is wrong because some people use it. I proved that I can finish mission high level content so she cannot be obsolete. Less powerful? Sure.

People using something doesnt make it less obsolete. Something becomes obsolete when there is a better replacement. Fun is also not a variable that changes if something is obsolete or not, since fun isnt factual. Obsolete however is, because there is always a statisticially better or worse choice for something, and the worse choice is the obsolete choice since it is surpassed by something else that fills the same purpose.

If you look for CC there are far better frames for that, including those that bring massive damage at the same time, like Vauban or Khora. If you look for weapon buffs you also have better frames for it, like Rhino and Chroma. And if you want a mix of both you have Zephyr, that increases crit and provides CC aswell as scaling damage through her kit, and several times better survivability. And then there is Garuda with a constant damage buff along with scaling stacking damage on demand, and tankyness to boot even without her #1. Gyre is just fragile, has no scaling damage versus anything but infested, and even there it is lacking. Ontop of that her round up CC skill is horrible, gets stopped by a grain of sand and cant get through simple doors, no matter how well you aim it. She's a complete disaster of a frame on Orokin and Derelict tiles due to that.

[Zeclem]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

People using something doesnt make it less obsolete. Something becomes obsolete when there is a better replacement. Fun is also not a variable that changes if something is obsolete or not, since fun isnt factual. Obsolete however is, because there is always a statisticially better or worse choice for something, and the worse choice is the obsolete choice since it is surpassed by something else that fills the same purpose.

If you look for CC there are far better frames for that, including those that bring massive damage at the same time, like Vauban or Khora. If you look for weapon buffs you also have better frames for it, like Rhino and Chroma. And if you want a mix of both you have Zephyr, that increases crit and provides CC aswell as scaling damage through her kit, and several times better survivability. And then there is Garuda with a constant damage buff along with scaling stacking damage on demand, and tankyness to boot even without her #1. Gyre is just fragile, has no scaling damage versus anything but infested, and even there it is lacking. Ontop of that her round up CC skill is horrible, gets stopped by a grain of sand and cant get through simple doors, no matter how well you aim it. She's a complete disaster of a frame on Orokin and Derelict tiles due to that.

i should also add that even if you dont want a specific thing, there are frames who do both damage and cc better and easier than gyre. like rhino. his damage buff is infintely better AND works on your squad, he is way tankier and has access to way better cc. hell, if you dont want the kind of cc that stomp has and want a grouping tool you can always helminth one in too, there is a ton of options there.

and he is just one of many. frames with both cc and damage are quite common. rhino is just one of the better examples.

[quxier]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

People using something doesnt make it less obsolete. Something becomes obsolete when there is a better replacement.

This statement makes most frames obsolete. Let's take exterimnate. You want to kill as fast as possible. It's easy to measure it - just count how long it takes to finish given mission. Some frames takes e.g. 5-15. 10% frames takes 2 minutes 1 frames takes 1 minute & 55 seconds. You make all except 1 frame obsolete. Even 10% frames takes JUST 5 more seconds.

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Fun is also not a variable that changes if something is obsolete or not, since fun isnt factual.

Sure, fun in itself isn't but what I mentioned:

On 2022-06-24 at 3:53 PM, quxier said:

1. That's why you give many options and don't make blatantly boring abilities that you press X to kill enemies (Xaku's Grasp of Lohk, Yareli's Aquablades - with augment this ability is different).

2. You make abilities usable all of the time (e.g. Gyre has just cooldown but easily avoided; on other hand Caliban's Razor gyre (1st) cannot use his 4th).

3. Abilities shouldn't be clunky to use (e.g. Sevagoth should use 1+2 together because one ability is weak, his "meter" had to be full etc)

Her having less damage is not making her bad she has enough damage. She is better than "bad" because she has (2) & (3). She has some of (1) but that's subjective (someone may don't like some features) and too much features is not good as well.

Can be measured.

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

27 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

i should also add that even if you dont want a specific thing, there are frames who do both damage and cc better and easier than gyre. like rhino. his damage buff is infintely better AND works on your squad, he is way tankier and has access to way better cc. hell, if you dont want the kind of cc that stomp has and want a grouping tool you can always helminth one in too, there is a ton of options there.

and he is just one of many. frames with both cc and damage are quite common. rhino is just one of the better examples.

Yup, and he's an ooold frame, so kinda sad when a brand new one is obsolete even by those old standards and lacks of updates to a kit.

15 minutes ago, quxier said:

This statement makes most frames obsolete. Let's take exterimnate. You want to kill as fast as possible. It's easy to measure it - just count how long it takes to finish given mission. Some frames takes e.g. 5-15. 10% frames takes 2 minutes 1 frames takes 1 minute & 55 seconds. You make all except 1 frame obsolete. Even 10% frames takes JUST 5 more seconds.

Sure, fun in itself isn't but what I mentioned:

Can be measured.

 

 

And those same frames that excell at something as pointless as exterminate may be obsolete for defense. Gyre's problem is that she is simply obsolete, she isnt strong at any specific game mode, nor versus any specific faction, nor brings buffs or mechanics that outshine another frame. Most of the frames do the same thing as someone else effectively in a different way, that just doesnt apply to frames like Gyre or Yareli for instance. Sure there are other obsolete frames out there (would be pretty out of this world if there werent with a roster of 50), but that isnt an excuse for new frames to be released obsolete.

I'm not sure what you try to measure either. Fun? That is still subjective at best. You say "clunky" while I call it depth. Depth is in my mind fun, but apparently not in yours, so again just subjective thoughts and opinions regarding synergies in kits. Like how old Saryn was more fun to me since she had depth in her whole build that tied into what weapons you'd bring for best effect etc. Now her kit just syncs with itself, which isnt bad, just not as fun.

edit: I also wanna make it perfectly clear that you and others are allowed to find fun in frames like Gyre and Yareli, but please dont claim they are "good" based on fun factor.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You say "clunky" while I call it depth. Depth is in my mind fun, but apparently not in yours, so again just subjective thoughts and opinions regarding synergies in kits.

So wait:

Quote

3. Abilities shouldn't be clunky to use (e.g. Sevagoth (1)should use 1+2 together because one ability is weak, (2)his "meter" had to be full etc)

So spamming 1 or 2 (1 point) OR having to build "meter" again (e.g. half of it) because some nullies (or other enemy that I'm not aware of) touches you (2) is depth?! I can understand having fun with Mechs (for me it's just downgrade for frames) but those "depth" is ridiculous.

Depth is when you can use attacks/abilities in different way. Xaku's Grasp of Lohk has 2 modes: attacking & disarming. Using different modes may change your way of play. Grab many guns (and keep it with 4th) and let it kill enemies is one style. You can CC with Void proc, Disarm them and slowly kill them. One might be superior but that ability has more depth than 2 features/abilities mentioned in above quote.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: I also wanna make it perfectly clear that you and others are allowed to find fun in frames like Gyre and Yareli, but please dont claim they are "good" based on fun factor.

They are "good" not great based on damage as well. I could do 40+ survi with just Aquabledes. Gyre can deal with 100+ Heavy gunner without bigger problems.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yareli, but please dont claim they are "good" based on fun factor.

That make me laugh. Yareli & fun doesn't mesh together for me. She is clunky & very basic frame. I found her very boring (well... her augment makes it little bit better). If someone finds her fun then... oh well... whatever floats your boat.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

People using something doesnt make it less obsolete. Something becomes obsolete when there is a better replacement. Fun is also not a variable that changes if something is obsolete or not, since fun isnt factual. Obsolete however is, because there is always a statisticially better or worse choice for something, and the worse choice is the obsolete choice since it is surpassed by something else that fills the same purpose.

If you look for CC there are far better frames for that, including those that bring massive damage at the same time, like Vauban or Khora. If you look for weapon buffs you also have better frames for it, like Rhino and Chroma. And if you want a mix of both you have Zephyr, that increases crit and provides CC aswell as scaling damage through her kit, and several times better survivability. And then there is Garuda with a constant damage buff along with scaling stacking damage on demand, and tankyness to boot even without her #1. Gyre is just fragile, has no scaling damage versus anything but infested, and even there it is lacking. Ontop of that her round up CC skill is horrible, gets stopped by a grain of sand and cant get through simple doors, no matter how well you aim it. She's a complete disaster of a frame on Orokin and Derelict tiles due to that.

Something being obsolete only in your eyes isn't a fact either. 

Unless you can provide evidence that says literally no player is using x frame? 

Do you have this information?

 

Edit: Also a reminder that statistics are flawed for a number of reasons. There's an entire segment on statistics about their flaws and how they can be applied based on a person agenda/ulterior motives.

[(NSW)6and5]

I'm sure she's fine but we should get her a psychologist just to be sure.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, (NSW)6and5 said:

I'm sure she's fine but we should get her a psychologist just to be sure.

I agree tbh, that much emotional damage isn't good.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, quxier said:

So wait:

So spamming 1 or 2 (1 point) OR having to build "meter" again (e.g. half of it) because some nullies (or other enemy that I'm not aware of) touches you (2) is depth?! I can understand having fun with Mechs (for me it's just downgrade for frames) but those "depth" is ridiculous.

Depth is when you can use attacks/abilities in different way. Xaku's Grasp of Lohk has 2 modes: attacking & disarming. Using different modes may change your way of play. Grab many guns (and keep it with 4th) and let it kill enemies is one style. You can CC with Void proc, Disarm them and slowly kill them. One might be superior but that ability has more depth than 2 features/abilities mentioned in above quote.

They are "good" not great based on damage as well. I could do 40+ survi with just Aquabledes. Gyre can deal with 100+ Heavy gunner without bigger problems.

That make me laugh. Yareli & fun doesn't mesh together for me. She is clunky & very basic frame. I found her very boring (well... her augment makes it little bit better). If someone finds her fun then... oh well... whatever floats your boat.

That is depth, since you get more involved with the kit, rotations become a thing for best use and so on compared to just hitting buttons in a random order. I also have no clue whatsoever how you went from frame kits to Mechs in one go when talking depth through ability synergy. And no, what you describe with Xaku isnt exactly depth, that is just different options, diversity, more than one playstyle. Depth for Xaku is more making full use out of #3. Grasp also doesnt really have 2 modes, since the disarm is capped to your number of guns, so you cant play Xaku as a disarm frame for instance by spamming Grasp over and over and over, since when you sit at max guns you cant recast Grasp. So there isnt even that option for diversity where you'd completely ignore damage in order to increase range to play another disarm frame "Loki style".

40+ missions are low level, so are normal level 100+ HGs, especially now when the baseline star chart level ceiling is determined by Zariman and its bounties. And we also have Steel Path, and have had that part of the game for a long long time now. So things should handle those places well to be good. Anything works on the normal old star chart, so being able to handle 40+ content really isnt a benchmark.

19 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Something being obsolete only in your eyes isn't a fact either. 

Unless you can provide evidence that says literally no player is using x frame? 

Do you have this information?

 

Edit: Also a reminder that statistics are flawed for a number of reasons. There's an entire segment on statistics about their flaws and how they can be applied based on a person agenda/ulterior motives.

But that isnt just in my eyes, it is fact that she is obsolete compared to far older and barely updated frames. As I said, usage doesnt matter in order for something to be obsolete or not. All we need to do is compare kits, which has been done in this thread. As mentioned, Rhino, he outperforms Gyre in every aspect, he has better survival, better CC and a better damage buff, that means Gyre is factually obsolete even compared to such an old frame. She had an edge at her release, which was her #4 which was an ability for current WF, but she doesnt have that anymore, so is just another gun platform with low survivability, or a low level zone nuker with her poorly scaling electric damage.

However, being a low level zone nuker isnt exactly something to write home about, since we have several other frames that do exactly that, and scale without trouble deep into Steel Path aswell, like Saryn, Vauban, Garuda, Khora, Protea etc. Just as being a squishy weapon platform is better performed by Banshee, which practically scales infinitely and comes with total zone and eximus lockdown, which is another old old frame that has barely gotten touched in year.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is depth, since you get more involved with the kit, rotations become a thing for best use and so on compared to just hitting buttons in a random order. I also have no clue whatsoever how you went from frame kits to Mechs in one go when talking depth through ability synergy. And no, what you describe with Xaku isnt exactly depth, that is just different options, diversity, more than one playstyle. Depth for Xaku is more making full use out of #3. Grasp also doesnt really have 2 modes, since the disarm is capped to your number of guns, so you cant play Xaku as a disarm frame for instance by spamming Grasp over and over and over, since when you sit at max guns you cant recast Grasp. So there isnt even that option for diversity where you'd completely ignore damage in order to increase range to play another disarm frame "Loki style".

40+ missions are low level, so are normal level 100+ HGs, especially now when the baseline star chart level ceiling is determined by Zariman and its bounties. And we also have Steel Path, and have had that part of the game for a long long time now. So things should handle those places well to be good. Anything works on the normal old star chart, so being able to handle 40+ content really isnt a benchmark.

But that isnt just in my eyes, it is fact that she is obsolete compared to far older and barely updated frames. As I said, usage doesnt matter in order for something to be obsolete or not. All we need to do is compare kits, which has been done in this thread. As mentioned, Rhino, he outperforms Gyre in every aspect, he has better survival, better CC and a better damage buff, that means Gyre is factually obsolete even compared to such an old frame. She had an edge at her release, which was her #4 which was an ability for current WF, but she doesnt have that anymore, so is just another gun platform with low survivability, or a low level zone nuker with her poorly scaling electric damage.

However, being a low level zone nuker isnt exactly something to write home about, since we have several other frames that do exactly that, and scale without trouble deep into Steel Path aswell, like Saryn, Vauban, Garuda, Khora, Protea etc. Just as being a squishy weapon platform is better performed by Banshee, which practically scales infinitely and comes with total zone and eximus lockdown, which is another old old frame that has barely gotten touched in year.

Yea it's all good man I shouldn't have even said anything. 

You're starting out with the premise that it's somehow factually true that the game is built around frames competing, which I don't agree with so it doesn't matter.

[quxier]

58 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is depth, since you get more involved with the kit, rotations become a thing for best use and so on compared to just hitting buttons in a random order.

And you know how I have played Sevagoth (at least Normal form)? Spam randomly 1+2. That's your depth. So if frame had 100 abilities then it would had even more depth?

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And no, what you describe with Xaku isnt exactly depth, that is just different options, diversity, more than one playstyle. Depth for Xaku is more making full use out of #3. Grasp also doesnt really have 2 modes, since the disarm is capped to your number of guns, so you cant play Xaku as a disarm frame for instance by spamming Grasp over and over and over, since when you sit at max guns you cant recast Grasp. So there isnt even that option for diversity where you'd completely ignore damage in order to increase range to play another disarm frame "Loki style".

You know that you can put negative duration (~70) and use GoL to disarm enemies every ~4 seconds (afair)?

I have builds with ~70% duration (1 even less) and 100% range. It's not "Loki style". It's much more dynamic playstyle.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

40+ missions are low level, so are normal level 100+ HGs, especially now when the baseline star chart level ceiling is determined by Zariman and its bounties.

Zariman's are 110-115 at max. The lowest start at 50-55. So I'm not sure how you can say that 100 is "low".

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And we also have Steel Path, and have had that part of the game for a long long time now. So things should handle those places well to be good. Anything works on the normal old star chart, so being able to handle 40+ content really isnt a benchmark.

I don't think SP is meant for such measurements. It's "hard mode" (just more damage or hp/armor/etc). Most of game is around non-SP mode. If you (or other people) want "measure" her against SP then it's fine. You just have to mention it as not everyone think that SP is where everyone should be playing. I have just unlocked few nodes via incursions (exterminate, survi or other easy modes). Otherwise I don't care about this.

 

[SneakyErvin]

22 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Yea it's all good man I shouldn't have even said anything. 

You're starting out with the premise that it's somehow factually true that the game is built around frames competing, which I don't agree with so it doesn't matter.

No, that isnt at all what I claim is factually true. What I claim is factually true is that Gyre is obsolete, which she is because others, even very old frames, outperform her in nearly every aspect. I dont deny anyone that they might still enjoy her, but that isnt the same as the frame being relevant, effective, good or well designed.

I personally enjoy both "lockdown" frames aswell as "weapon platforms", both being styles that Gyre can cover. However, she is weak compared to many other frames that fill those roles/playstyles for me. And weak isnt a matter of opinion, that is simply rooted in their stats, damage and kit overall. If she was a stronger frame I'd like replace one of my others with her as a sidegrade, or add her to the rotation of those frames. But there is no reason to add her since she is obsolete compared to those other frames and the fun for me is the same with the other frames because they fit that same style/mood.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, quxier said:

And you know how I have played Sevagoth (at least Normal form)? Spam randomly 1+2. That's your depth. So if frame had 100 abilities then it would had even more depth?

You know that you can put negative duration (~70) and use GoL to disarm enemies every ~4 seconds (afair)?

I have builds with ~70% duration (1 even less) and 100% range. It's not "Loki style". It's much more dynamic playstyle.

Zariman's are 110-115 at max. The lowest start at 50-55. So I'm not sure how you can say that 100 is "low".

I don't think SP is meant for such measurements. It's "hard mode" (just more damage or hp/armor/etc). Most of game is around non-SP mode. If you (or other people) want "measure" her against SP then it's fine. You just have to mention it as not everyone think that SP is where everyone should be playing. I have just unlocked few nodes via incursions (exterminate, survi or other easy modes). Otherwise I don't care about this.

 

But then you dont get the effect you are supposed to get from the kit, so you miss hitting the depth properly. And yes, a frame with 100 abilities, if synced, would add more depth.

Which screws over everything else in his kit aswell, since everything relies on duration. And it makes you unable to use his #4 since it would counter your duration reduction etc. Meaning you gimp survivability and practically everything Xaku can do. That isnt depth, since it results in something that practically doesnt work or benefit the frame at all.

Normal level 100 mobs have been low level for quite a while. And how I can say that is because practically anything normal is low level and not really a benchmark for power or where things are good.

SP is still part of the game and things should be balanced around being useful there since it is easily accessible content. And when most of Gyre's similar frame cousins do very well in SP it is quite a step back to release her, or well nerf her shortly after release, into a state that performs horribly in SP. All of the frames mentioned blow through SP without trouble using their actual kits really well. Gyre on the other hand ends up at Yareli level of worthlessness regarding her kit usage in SP. And she doesnt even come with utility that you can get from someone like Volt, that drops off in ability damage output at "higher" levels but comes with outstanding survivability, CC options and damage buffs that makes him shine in SP aswell.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

53 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, that isnt at all what I claim is factually true. What I claim is factually true is that Gyre is obsolete, which she is because others, even very old frames, outperform her in nearly every aspect. I dont deny anyone that they might still enjoy her, but that isnt the same as the frame being relevant, effective, good or well designed.

I personally enjoy both "lockdown" frames aswell as "weapon platforms", both being styles that Gyre can cover. However, she is weak compared to many other frames that fill those roles/playstyles for me. And weak isnt a matter of opinion, that is simply rooted in their stats, damage and kit overall. If she was a stronger frame I'd like replace one of my others with her as a sidegrade, or add her to the rotation of those frames. But there is no reason to add her since she is obsolete compared to those other frames and the fun for me is the same with the other frames because they fit that same style/mood.

For what content? What mission? What level? 

Surely you're aware that for example, only a handful of frames can complete an SP defense solo for x amount of waves....

Those frames are usually always gonna be defense frames. 

So are non defense frames completely obsolete? 

Can you prove all frames except Gyre can complete an SP defense up to a certain wave?

[quxier]

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But then you dont get the effect you are supposed to get from the kit, so you miss hitting the depth properly.

When I've been playing sev I felt like I've been pressing 1 key. No thought. Nothing. No depth. Just spamming. I've been doing fine.

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And yes, a frame with 100 abilities, if synced, would add more depth.

Sure if they have some synergies, pros & cons etc then yes. But if you just have to press 95 keys to use 1 ability then it would be just ridiculous.

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which screws over everything else in his kit aswell, since everything relies on duration. And it makes you unable to use his #4 since it would counter your duration reduction etc. Meaning you gimp survivability and practically everything Xaku can do. That isnt depth, since it results in something that practically doesnt work or benefit the frame at all.

Not sure about Eximus nowadays but against armed unit it was good.

Their 1st has enough duration even with ~70% duration. I haven't used 3rd because it was clunky to use. Their 4th is huge boost when you use more abilities (especially 2nd & 3rd e.g. 2x Gaze). However I don't use 3rd so it has barely effect on me. You get boost to 75% to damage reduction/evasion but it's still not huge (better than silly 50% of Caliban). Sprint boost doesn't work. Void vulnerability works against enemies so I wouldn't use it either way.

With void proc (1st) you "semi CC" enemies then disarm them completely with GoL. Survivality is very high.

46 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

SP is still part of the game and things should be balanced around being useful there since it is easily accessible content.

SP isn't "easily accessible content". You have to beat whole star chart (excluding few nodes). Then you have good builds + have mods/arcanes. SP is to test Tennos:

Quote

The Steel Path is a difficulty modifier for the Origin System hosted by Teshin, testing the Tenno's perseverance against significantly more durable enemies.

If you get balanced against SP then whole "test stuffs" is mundame. We have to work to beat SP.

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Gyre on the other hand ends up at Yareli level of worthlessness regarding her kit usage in SP.

So touching SP enemies (I think it was SP kuva survi) and they are death after 1 second (afair) is worthless?

[Wolfdoggie]

Her best skill is subsume-able so I don't own her anymore. Great skill for low/min duration builds since those don't have many options when 95% of Helminth skills need duration.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

Ok seriously, I think we get the point now, gyre is bad especially compared to a few other "recent" frames like sevagoth, lavos, and even Caliban. Heck, even Yareli is better if you run an aoe kitgun.

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

For what content? What mission? What level? 

Surely you're aware that for example, only a handful of frames can complete an SP defense solo for x amount of waves....

Those frames are usually always gonna be defense frames. 

So are non defense frames completely obsolete? 

Can you prove all frames except Gyre can complete an SP defense up to a certain wave?

The thing isI'm talking about Gyre in general, shes an overall weak frame with a better choice in other frames of similar kind. 

22 hours ago, quxier said:

If you get balanced against SP then whole "test stuffs" is mundame. We have to work to beat SP.

So touching SP enemies (I think it was SP kuva survi) and they are death after 1 second (afair) is worthless?

Balance is the only thing that can allow for proper testing. There is no excuse to have the gap we have between frames.

I have a very hard time believing you used her kit aside from her #3 + a heavy hitting weapon to kill kuva fortress enemies with her in 1 second on SP. Which just proves my point, shes another weapon platform with 1 useful skill and terrible survivability.