Pablo's monotonous gameplay issues

[quxier]

In the recent interview with Brozime    Pablo said that he likes game to have "ups & downs" (not monotonous). I agree with that.

However there are some issues with his or DE's implementation. In his example he mentioned Incarnon guns. In my opinion simply nerfing gear and then "unlocking" full potential isn't good.

 

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Does the game support and encourage different playstyles within one mission or missions are short so it doesn't need different playstyle?

 

We can prepare for short and not very complex mission. In the star chart you see Spy? You may pick Ivara. You see Defense? You may pick Limbo.

On other hand we have Bounties in Earth, Deimos & Venus. They doesn't allow to change gear. You pick what's the best option. Some bounty stage may be harder so you pick very specific frame. For example I've picked Mesa for Protect the camp because enemies spawn in large radius (far from me). I don't see them but I have to kill them.

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Does the frame/weapon support and encourage different playstyles?

 

Certain part of frame or weapon may be easier to play with or it's stronger. For example with Xaku I can use lot of duration, grab guns (2nd - Grasp of Lohk), strip armor (3rd - Gaze) and make abilities last longer with Vast untime(4th). That's one style. On other hand I can disarm enemies by using Grasp of Lohk and make some enemies unable to hit me with Void proc (1st). However if I want to constantly disarm enemies I cannot use Vast untime (4). It's still not great so I'm using negative duration (~75%). Frame heavily discourage another style because I cannot use more than half of its kit (3rd has low duration & 4th makes me unable to cast Grasp of Lohk). This style relies more on the weapon so I'm doing less damage.

 

Gear may not allow me to use certain feature or make it harder to use. For example we have 3 melees that use aerial shoots:

- Vitrica

- Exodia contagion (arcane)

- Innodem

With Vitrica I just need to jump to shoot. It's easy to play.

Innodem requires 5x combo & heavy attack so it's not as reliable as Vitrica. You may kill enemies faster or have other problems with gaining combo. When you have Incarnon mode (can do aerial shoots) you still cannot refresh Incarnon mode. So you can end up not using Aerial mode.

Exodia contagion requires you to do double or bullet jump. It's not always possible or it can be inconvenient to do big jumps. If it were to powerful (spamming it) they could make it limit to only 1 shoot per jump (normal, double or bullet jump). That would be more reliable. Double/bulllet jump discourage use of this arcane.

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How good is energy/ammo/other economy?

 

I'm using Grendel, Primed flow and some duration/efficiency mods. I've used Pulverize jumping around (using Catapult augment that use 10 energy per jump). After I've killed enemies (inside Grendel) energy drain starts to increase. At ~1/2 of energy, energy drain become very fast. 1/2 of energy is drained within seconds while doing nothing. With Gourmand augment Grendel still uses energy at 0 enemies inside. It doesn't change duration of Pulverize too much. It even makes it worse as you need to look for 3 (instead of 2) meters*.

On other hand Gloom has limit on enemies, can regenerate energy while no enemies are around and doesn't waste energy when there are no enemies. Gyre's 3rd (Cathode grace) is example of ability with good energy economy. It just requires killing every few seconds.

 

* without augment you look at 2 "meters": enemies inside & energy; with the augment you have to look at health as well increasing meters to 3.

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Does other modes are "fun" or just different as well?

 

This is more subjective however having options is good. Pablo mentioned Incarnon guns having "ups and downs". Normal mode (in exception of Felarx) are just worse then Incarnon mode. It's just good gun with extra steps. There is no reason to use normal mode.

Melees have only few "different" attacks. In lots of cases it just matter range between you and enemy.

 

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How to make it better?

- Either make mission shorter with clear objective (e.g. spy) or allow us to change our gear in the middle of mission. Zariman's bounties are doing pretty good job at giving us slightly different but very precise requirements.

- Allow different playstyles. For example Xaku should be able to disarm enemies all the time. Innodem & Exodia contagion should be able to shoot all the time. You can add some limits to make it worse for spamming. As for Exodia contagion: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1274801-exodia-contagion-more-or-easier-shoots/ . Innodem can have more damage while in Incarnon form. 

- Energy/ammo/other economy should be good. Don't waste energy on doing nothing (e.g. Grendel). Let us regenerate energy (Caliban's Razor Gyre, Grendel's 4th).

- Abilities, weapon modes etc should be different (not just better). Incarnon melees could change forms: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1311424-praedos-and-other-incarnon-melees-changed-form-or-uniqueness-angel-of-zariman-spoiler/ Same as old Dark Split-sword that should change stances depending inside mission via e.g. heavy attack.

[Tyreaus]

23 minutes ago, quxier said:

In my opinion simply nerfing gear and then "unlocking" full potential isn't good.

The entire point behind having "ups and downs" is to have two states, one that's more powerful than the other. The common idea is to use the weaker state to build up to the stronger state. Ultimates in Overwatch are a pretty evident example, but many exist throughout the gaming sphere. So if having that "ups and downs" isn't good, then you don't agree with, or don't understand, Pablo on monotony.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Missions are short, and have clear objectives....

Every mission has a round, and you're able to extract at any time...

There's no need to change loadouts mid mission....because you have the ability to have teammates and/or solo with certain frames. Not to mention this can be and will be abused if implemented and probably is more of a coding issue.

Xaku is ridiculously overpowered and doesn't need any more changes to make him more overpowered.

And you may need to retype that Grendel part because it was hard to read....Grendel has great energy economy if you actually know how to use him....try reading his wiki...and be aware that Rage and Hunter Adrenaline work while feast is active.

[quxier]

On 2022-08-18 at 8:33 PM, Tyreaus said:

The entire point behind having "ups and downs" is to have two states, one that's more powerful than the other. The common idea is to use the weaker state to build up to the stronger state. Ultimates in Overwatch are a pretty evident example, but many exist throughout the gaming sphere. So if having that "ups and downs" isn't good, then you don't agree with, or don't understand, Pablo on monotony.

I get that game shouldn't be constant use of one ability or move. I like that idea. However I think there should be something else than power that differentiate states.

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Missions are short, and have clear objectives....

Bounties, Railjack are not short and doesn't have clear objectives.

20 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Every mission has a round, and you're able to extract at any time...

Yes, but in order to get most loot you need to do "whole thing" or at least "few rounds". I'm not exactly sure what you are replying to.

25 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There's no need to change loadouts mid mission....because you have the ability to have teammates and/or solo with certain frames.

As I said you can finish missions/bounties but it restricts usage of our gear.

26 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Xaku is ridiculously overpowered and doesn't need any more changes to make him more overpowered.

It's not simple buff but it adds "different playstyle". Being overpowered doesn't mean that frame or weapon cannot use some changes or additions.

29 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And you may need to retype that Grendel part because it was hard to read....Grendel has great energy economy if you actually know how to use him....try reading his wiki...and be aware that Rage and Hunter Adrenaline work while feast is active.

Ok, I've forgotten to mention Pulverize. I'll change Grendel part soon. Thank you for feedback.

Just so you don't go back to original post:

- Eat some enemies with Grendel

- Turn on Pulverize

- Kill enemies by jumping

- When your energy drops to ~1/2 (using Primed flow) then energy drain becomes big.

- 1/2 of energy is drained within seconds (I don't remember exact time) while doing nothing.

Gourmand (the augment) won't help too much as at 0 enemies inside Grendel drains energy.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

45 minutes ago, quxier said:

I get that game shouldn't be constant use of one ability or move. I like that idea. However I think there should be something else than power that differentiate states.

Bounties, Railjack are not short and doesn't have clear objectives.

Yes, but in order to get most loot you need to do "whole thing" or at least "few rounds". I'm not exactly sure what you are replying to.

As I said you can finish missions/bounties but it restricts usage of our gear.

It's not simple buff but it adds "different playstyle". Being overpowered doesn't mean that frame or weapon cannot use some changes or additions.

Ok, I've forgotten to mention Pulverize. I'll change Grendel part soon. Thank you for feedback.

Just so you don't go back to original post:

- Eat some enemies with Grendel

- Turn on Pulverize

- Kill enemies by jumping

- When your energy drops to ~1/2 (using Primed flow) then energy drain becomes big.

- 1/2 of energy is drained within seconds (I don't remember exact time) while doing nothing.

Gourmand (the augment) won't help too much as at 0 enemies inside Grendel drains energy.

I personally don't see a 20 minute mission as long, either. Railjack will be longer because you have to build your ship up. People have already completely trivialized railjack and efficiently optimized it.

The objectives are on the left side of the screen. It says usually something along the lines of killing crewships and fighters, then you blow up the enemies radar on their base. Pretty clear if you ask me.

Is having to use a defense frame for a defense mission restricting your gear as well? The different frames are there for different uses, the same reason why there are different missions in the game.

I don't think people are meant to stay in Pulverize for a long time, but yea an energy tweak for pulverize seems reasonable.

[Silligoose]

I also agree with games having peaks and valleys, but DE went for the Mariana Trench and Everest. There is far too great a discrepancy in the lower end of damage performance and higher end of damage performance, especially when it comes to the damage bonusses one gets from mechanics such as Galv mods and Weapon Arcanes. There is no way for DE to balance content around levels of power that can jump almost x30+ times based on Galv mods and Weapon Arcanes alone.

Check the difference in power by clicking "apply conditionals".

New Tenora Prime Build - Warframe Tenora Prime - Overframe

To be fair I went for an extreme example and it shows a jump of almost x50. Galv Scope at least has it's first proc on hit, making power jump after that first proc more akin to x30 instead of x50. Of course, one can prime targets for more Galv Aptitude stacks and the jump increases again, not to mention Galv mods still multiplying damage instead of adding it. The current values and mechanics effectively forces players into mainly playing with the one weapon throughout the mission, because the weapon is just going to be straight-up better than the other two option in the backpocket, plus, if stacks get lost, it is a massive damage penalty.

Why is it a problem? Because DE can't balance content around that properly, so instead they nerf us, but instead of nerfing these mechanics directly and bringing more balance to the game, they do so "behind the scenes" with damage attenuation. Why have fake the peaks of potential power when those peaks aren't really as powerful as advertised against the tougher enemies such as Acolytes or Demolishers, while not really having practical value against the vast majority of enemies?

Leading players to believe they are going to have certain increases in levels of performance against the tougher enemies, the times when it actually matters, once they fully upgraded these mods, only to find out it is not the case, feels really scummy, causes confusion and leads to disappointment. We don't need the ridiculous damage jump against normal enemies and obviously we don't have it available on tough enemies due to damage attenuation, so rebalance it properly so the damage attenuation band-aid can be eradicated from the game (it is an infuriating band-aid) and establish actual peaks and valleys instead trips to Pluto and back.

Incarnon weapons are also very poorly balanced. Phenmor and Laetum have ridiculous jumps in power when going into Incarnon mode and the Felarx decides to be a rebel and becomes worse. These weapons certainly require a rebalance and their "+2000% damage 50% of the time" talent tree, which is actually an x20 times the damage 50% of the time bonus, needs to be reeled in to something more reasonable.

DE should rebalance Galv mods and Weapon Arcanes: Decrease the amount of bonuses the stacks give and in turn, make some of them proc "on hit" instead of "on kill", so there is a more natural slope regarding jumps in power, with the peak being more reasonable and manageable for DE and the valley not feeling like a terrible punishment for players. Have Galv Savvy not require kills as with Condition Overload and potentially look to have a cap on the amount of statuses that give bonus stacks of damage. They can also explore other options that aren't as stringent, as seen with Cascadia Flare or look into freezing cd's when players switch to another weapon so there isn't a severe penalty for using the variety in one's loadout.

The ideas behind these mods to introduce more mechanics to serve as mechanisms that enable peaks and valleys are good, but the execution is causing a lot of imbalances, leads to restrictive playstyles,  leads to a continued need for band-aids and is just not good for the game overall.

They should rebalance Condition Overload while they are at it - they were far too timid with the first go-around. Oh, and balance Viral properly as well - it is far too powerful.

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I get that game shouldn't be constant use of one ability or move. I like that idea. However I think there should be something else than power that differentiate states.

I won't reiterate what I wrote; instead, I'll ask:

What would make a player switch, both forward and back?

The reason classic "ups and downs" works is that the player wants the more powerful version, they just aren't always given it. So let's take the following as an example:

On 2022-08-18 at 11:02 AM, quxier said:

Abilities, weapon modes etc should be different (not just better). Incarnon melees could change forms: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1311424-praedos-and-other-incarnon-melees-changed-form-or-uniqueness-angel-of-zariman-spoiler/ Same as old Dark Split-sword that should change stances depending inside mission via e.g. heavy attack.

Let's say I can change the Innodem to a sword stance with the heavy attack. Why would I want to? Well, one reason could be that I like the neutral attack on Iron Phoenix force-proccing Slash. Here's the problem: if I want to use the sword version, for whatever reason, I'll change to the sword version - and stay there. I don't have any reason to go back to the dagger version because I'm already using the version I want. This is similar to what happened with Equinox for the longest time, and persists somewhat today: players pick a form they like and don't use the swap mechanic because they already have what they want out of it.

That doesn't avoid monotony. It just makes getting into the monotonous state slightly more involved. Not great.

23 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

DE should rebalance Galv mods and Weapon Arcanes: Decrease the amount of bonuses the stacks give and in turn, make some of them proc "on hit" instead of "on kill", so there is a more natural slope regarding jumps in power, with the peak being more reasonable and manageable for DE and the valley not feeling like a terrible punishment for players. Have Galv Savvy not require kills as with Condition Overload and potentially look to have a cap on the amount of statuses that give bonus stacks of damage. They can also explore other options that aren't as stringent, as seen with Cascadia Flare or look into freezing cd's when players switch to another weapon so there isn't a severe penalty for using the variety in one's loadout.

One concept / addendum could be that the stacks proc on hit, but the decay timer does not refresh from the first hit. So if the first hit on Merciless gives a timer of, say, 10 seconds (because 4 is much too small), you can stack up Merciless really high for those 10 seconds - but it'll then reset. An issue with the current setup is that there's no valley unless you do something egregious like swap weapons. _{Because using a completely different weapon furthers gameplay monotony. /s} That's kind of what Condition Overload does, though I think CO is a bit too quick: the stacking per enemy makes the up and down rhythm so rapid that it's hard to notice gameplay ebbs and flows. It's like, it takes 3 hits to down the enemy. 3 hits is 3 hits. CO made the later hits do more damage but that doesn't really change the gameplay, it just makes a health bar decrease in a funny way.

Incarnon weapons likely do need a rebalance. I also tend to see the Incarnon weapons having the opposite problem as CO: their peaks are so freakishly long that they become too much of the standard. 20x damage 50% of the time, might be more reasonable if it's only for quick bursts. When the bonus is global, and even if it wasn't when you're racking up hundreds of kills with the Incarnon modes, the balance picture gets a bit more skewed.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

21 hours ago, quxier said:

Railjack are not short and doesn't have clear objectives.

What? Railjack has very clear objectives. They literally can't get any clearer.

[quxier]

On 2022-08-20 at 12:51 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I personally don't see a 20 minute mission as long, either.

It honestly depend on what those 20 minutes consist of. It could be 20 minute survival - so you know more or less what to pick. On other hand 20 minute bounties are not that easy to prepare.

On 2022-08-20 at 12:51 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The objectives are on the left side of the screen. It says usually something along the lines of killing crewships and fighters, then you blow up the enemies radar on their base. Pretty clear if you ask me.

I meant before mission so you can prepare. RJ doesn't heavily really on preparation too much.

On 2022-08-20 at 12:51 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Is having to use a defense frame for a defense mission restricting your gear as well? The different frames are there for different uses, the same reason why there are different missions in the game.

As I said in my OP:

On 2022-08-18 at 8:02 PM, quxier said:

We can prepare for short and not very complex mission. In the star chart you see Spy? You may pick Ivara. You see Defense? You may pick Limbo.

 

23 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

On 2022-08-19 at 11:56 PM, quxier said:

I get that game shouldn't be constant use of one ability or move. I like that idea. However I think there should be something else than power that differentiate states.

I won't reiterate what I wrote; instead, I'll ask:

What would make a player switch, both forward and back?

The reason classic "ups and downs" works is that the player wants the more powerful version, they just aren't always given it. So let's take the following as an example:

On 2022-08-18 at 8:02 PM, quxier said:

Abilities, weapon modes etc should be different (not just better). Incarnon melees could change forms: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1311424-praedos-and-other-incarnon-melees-changed-form-or-uniqueness-angel-of-zariman-spoiler/ Same as old Dark Split-sword that should change stances depending inside mission via e.g. heavy attack.

Let's say I can change the Innodem to a sword stance with the heavy attack. Why would I want to? Well, one reason could be that I like the neutral attack on Iron Phoenix force-proccing Slash. Here's the problem: if I want to use the sword version, for whatever reason, I'll change to the sword version - and stay there. I don't have any reason to go back to the dagger version because I'm already using the version I want. This is similar to what happened with Equinox for the longest time, and persists somewhat today: players pick a form they like and don't use the swap mechanic because they already have what they want out of it.

That doesn't avoid monotony. It just makes getting into the monotonous state slightly more involved. Not great.

Player may change styles to deal with different enemies. For example when I fight Angels then I switch weapons as one weapon deals more damage. Sadly I rarely see it in WF.

Stances are not in good state but that's another, big, topic.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

51 minutes ago, quxier said:

It honestly depend on what those 20 minutes consist of. It could be 20 minute survival - so you know more or less what to pick. On other hand 20 minute bounties are not that easy to prepare.

I meant before mission so you can prepare. RJ doesn't heavily really on preparation too much.

As I said in my OP:

 

Player may change styles to deal with different enemies. For example when I fight Angels then I switch weapons as one weapon deals more damage. Sadly I rarely see it in WF.

Stances are not in good state but that's another, big, topic.

Bounties are easy to prepare for...they're all the same. You even said yourself you take Mesa to trivialize them. What one or two kills you miss.....that's what a teammate is for. 

What specific situation do you need to change loadouts for?

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Player may change styles to deal with different enemies. For example when I fight Angels then I switch weapons as one weapon deals more damage. Sadly I rarely see it in WF.

Stances are not in good state but that's another, big, topic.

You realize you're describing the extant game, yes? The extant game that spurred the discussion on monotony in the first place?

If it was the case that the capability to switch styles solved the monotony discussion, we wouldn't be here. You wouldn't be saying "I rarely see [weapon switching] in [Warframe]". Not without someone asking if you were crazy.

That's why I asked what would make a player switch.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

One of the things that upset me was when he said that operators won`t be getting melee, but then months later they make drifter able to use it.

 

Spoiler

“Basically, we don't want the operator to play the same as a warframe, because then what is the point of having both, right?”

“We want you to feel one way when you're playing with your warframe and then when you switch to your operator, it should feel distinct in a way. “

“So that's why we don't really want to have like a one-to-one match of how the gear works for your operator and for your warframe.”

 

This video proves why operators need melee

 

We have been asking for year for it jus give it to use already.

 

 

[(XBOX)Rez090]

12 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

One of the things that upset me was when he said that operators won`t be getting melee, but then months later they make drifter able to use it.

Maybe because Drifter has an adult body, so better muscle mass for using melee weapons, versus Operator who still has body of an early teenager, so not as developed muscle mass, hence reliance on void abilities.

[nslay]

Thanks for summarizing, I see Brozime continues to make excessively long content that no sane person will watch... 2 hours!? That's a movie!

[(PSN)Vexx757]

17 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Maybe because Drifter has an adult body, so better muscle mass for using melee weapons, versus Operator who still has body of an early teenager, so not as developed muscle mass, hence reliance on void abilities.

firstly teenagers are not weak when I was at school I knew kids that were strong making something make sense should not interfere with making something practical in that case operators should have stamina bars but it`s not practical and most ppl would hate them even more.

Plus I can make it make sense and be practical:

"Since the operators have used their wf for so long ,they can move like them and create a void weapon from their imagination" which means they can created how much it weighs.

Plus with the concept of eternalisim almost anything is possible so operators having void melee is not a stretch plus with it the can deal with a situation like in the video.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

firstly teenagers are not weak when I was at school I knew kids that were strong

So the 12 to 14 year olds were chugging spinach and could lift 200 or more lbs?

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

On 2022-08-20 at 11:02 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

One of the things that upset me was when he said that operators won`t be getting melee, but then months later they make drifter able to use it.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

“Basically, we don't want the operator to play the same as a warframe, because then what is the point of having both, right?”

“We want you to feel one way when you're playing with your warframe and then when you switch to your operator, it should feel distinct in a way. “

“So that's why we don't really want to have like a one-to-one match of how the gear works for your operator and for your warframe.”

 

This video proves why operators need melee

 

We have been asking for year for it jus give it to use already.

 

 

personally my hope is when he said no umbras in works currently, we will get a surprise few now due to these conflicting actions, given he also said in his prior interview NO reworks or changes were to happen, and now mag, wukong, grendal, excalibur are up for changes,nerfs, reworks month later. 

 

[Silligoose]

On 2022-08-20 at 1:55 AM, Tyreaus said:

ne concept / addendum could be that the stacks proc on hit, but the decay timer does not refresh from the first hit. So if the first hit on Merciless gives a timer of, say, 10 seconds (because 4 is much too small), you can stack up Merciless really high for those 10 seconds - but it'll then reset. An issue with the current setup is that there's no valley unless you do something egregious like swap weapons. _{Because using a completely different weapon furthers gameplay monotony. /s} That's kind of what Condition Overload does, though I think CO is a bit too quick: the stacking per enemy makes the up and down rhythm so rapid that it's hard to notice gameplay ebbs and flows. It's like, it takes 3 hits to down the enemy. 3 hits is 3 hits. CO made the later hits do more damage but that doesn't really change the gameplay, it just makes a health bar decrease in a funny way.

I'm envisioning what it would be like to play with a mechanic like that... I'm not 100% sure tbh, but with a bit of consideration, especially considering other mechanics in the game. I can envision players, or myself at least, looking to time the valleys with other forms of damage boosting (provided enemies are  durable enough for the practical performance to be tangible), and then focussing in on focus fire performance as the peak is hit for a limited period of time. It could be worth exploring, as it could result if different levels of pacing 👍

On 2022-08-20 at 1:55 AM, Tyreaus said:

Incarnon weapons likely do need a rebalance. I also tend to see the Incarnon weapons having the opposite problem as CO: their peaks are so freakishly long that they become too much of the standard. 20x damage 50% of the time, might be more reasonable if it's only for quick bursts. When the bonus is global, and even if it wasn't when you're racking up hundreds of kills with the Incarnon modes, the balance picture gets a bit more skewed.

One of the big issues with such a boost in power, even if only for a short period, is balancing content around it. If you are a developer and you want to have some sort of more dangerous enemy in a mission, like a mini-boss, that changes pacing from a slaughter fest to something not quite as easy, how much durability do you give that enemy if players can do 1 million DPS, or 10 times more, depending on the boost? Then a dev has to consider other top tier weapons that are just behind the Incarnon weapon on the list, but only has  that 1 million DPS and doesn't have the x10 boost.

You want players to take a little more time to deal with this more dangerous enemy, say 3 seconds at minimum, but you can't really do that, because if it lasts 3 seconds when the weapon is boosted, it is going to last far longer against the non-boosted version or other weapons. On the other hand, if you balance it to have last 10 seconds against the non-boosted form, or other weapons  it is barely going to be a blip on the radar against the boosted form and not change pacing all that much. That's why DE goes with damage attenuation - the know x10 is too much. I think it is dumb for the game to allow massive damage boosts when the damage boosts cause imbalances to such an extent that special formula's have to be implemented to say "no, actually that is only an x3 damage boost".

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

19 hours ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

he also said in his prior interview NO reworks or changes were to happen, and now mag, wukong, grendal, excalibur are up for changes,nerfs, reworks month later. 

 

Well I hope this is the case for operator melee. Seriously just imagine you wielding this.

Spoiler

 

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako:

personally my hope is when he said no umbras in works currently, we will get a surprise few now due to these conflicting actions, given he also said in his prior interview NO reworks or changes were to happen, and now mag, wukong, grendal, excalibur are up for changes,nerfs, reworks month later. 

 

does he want to ruin mag? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♀️
mag has top skill against ranged. but that was it. and volt/mag are strong warframes, but way too easy to kill.

but logic is not available. hence...

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

3 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

does he want to ruin mag? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♀️
mag has top skill against ranged. but that was it. and volt/mag are strong warframes, but way too easy to kill.

but logic is not available. hence...

l to my understanding of the reworking situations i shall attempt to explain 

The reasoning behind Excalibur and mag are to be changed, it is being to match their setup in the trailer for the start of the game (so no false advertisement is done) though imo volt should also be touched then .... by same reasoning 

for wukong ,its an issue with being relatively too op and too good for anything/everything via lazy play (not saying everyone does it, im just explaining the situation0) , 1 auto aggressive ai clone spam aoe guns, 2 invulnerability + movement, 3 invulnerability + damage scale, 4 ranged melee  all powers function to make the 1 more OP then the actual frame. so changes to reduce this to balanced levels , this is again to what and why I understand this situation top be about

for Grendel , his kit is very tanky and useful as a support unit, but internal synergy and function is an issue, this along with a inability to use powers in 4 mode, and other factors in terms of scaling to better function is an issue, obtainment is also a pain 

[LillyRaccune]

Wukong is overused by many players. How is that a lie?

[Tyreaus]

On 2022-08-22 at 10:33 AM, Silligoose said:

One of the big issues with such a boost in power, even if only for a short period, is balancing content around it. If you are a developer and you want to have some sort of more dangerous enemy in a mission, like a mini-boss, that changes pacing from a slaughter fest to something not quite as easy, how much durability do you give that enemy if players can do 1 million DPS, or 10 times more, depending on the boost? Then a dev has to consider other top tier weapons that are just behind the Incarnon weapon on the list, but only has  that 1 million DPS and doesn't have the x10 boost.

For Incaron weapons specifically, there's multiple variables for balance, from headshot requirements to Incarnon capacities to new stuff like cooldowns. It could be that the weapon performs no better than any other for 95% of a mission and has only small instances of getting a superpowered boost. You still have the balancing issues on paper, but because it gets the boost so rarely, you might get through one tough encounter with ease, but be on your own for the next five. Less of a "murderspree" and more of an "emergency exit", in that sense. See, also, Void Strike.

In the magical world where weapons in general have more of that ebb and flow, I think the idea of putting in a more dangerous - specifically, more durable - non-boss enemy is a mistake. For bosses, sure, you'll probably want to ensure the gameplay rhythm starts in a tough and peaks at some point during the fight. That allows a period of engagement that doesn't have to overstay its welcome. Luckily, cutscenes are a thing that can hide that reset. However, important to note is that bosses are fairly constant. They don't tend to sprout 99% damage reduction on a whim. Having some tough enemy or enemies in regular missions is equivalent to that 99% damage reduction. That creates balance complexities you mention, where you might have a clean oscillation between "weak" and "strong" against regular enemies, but now have to fit this randomly spawned outlier into an otherwise pleasant sine wave. Sure, we can try to adjust the wave in some way, push it upward or tweak the amplitude or whatnot else. Or, and call me crazy, we could just flatten the outlier so it fits within established schema. They can still be a dangerous priority target, but due to offensive capabilities rather than defensive ones.

(I also recognize this applies to factions between missions, not just things like eximus units in a given mission. I have no earthly idea how to phrase that in what I wrote. So have this virtual cookie.)

In short: enemy durability spikes and ebbs and flows in gameplay don't really mix. One or the other could go. _{Personally, given community responses to stereotypical bullet sponges like Wolf of Saturn Six, I tend to see the durability spikes as the better one to kick out.}

[quxier]

On 2022-08-21 at 2:19 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Bounties are easy to prepare for...they're all the same. You even said yourself you take Mesa to trivialize them. What one or two kills you miss.....that's what a teammate is for. 

What specific situation do you need to change loadouts for?

Mesa don't trivialize them. I still have to bullet jump & Peacemaker enemies. Not everyone plays with team and with increased number of team, game should be harder.

However it's not exactly about powers. It's about being able to choice.

On 2022-08-21 at 3:15 AM, Tyreaus said:

On 2022-08-21 at 1:25 AM, quxier said:

Player may change styles to deal with different enemies. For example when I fight Angels then I switch weapons as one weapon deals more damage. Sadly I rarely see it in WF.

Stances are not in good state but that's another, big, topic.

You realize you're describing the extant game, yes? The extant game that spurred the discussion on monotony in the first place?

I'm confused. What I'm describing?

On 2022-08-21 at 3:15 AM, Tyreaus said:

If it was the case that the capability to switch styles solved the monotony discussion, we wouldn't be here. You wouldn't be saying "I rarely see [weapon switching] in [Warframe]". Not without someone asking if you were crazy.

That's why I asked what would make a player switch.

When it comes to enemies, we don't have many different one that needs different approaches. So, for example, me going with Kuva nukor is good enough for (E)SO. It's just about power. Make different enemies that are not just more powerful. Maybe slow down game (at least from time to time).

On 2022-08-21 at 8:35 PM, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

On 2022-08-21 at 8:02 AM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

One of the things that upset me was when he said that operators won`t be getting melee, but then months later they make drifter able to use it.

Maybe because Drifter has an adult body, so better muscle mass for using melee weapons, versus Operator who still has body of an early teenager, so not as developed muscle mass, hence reliance on void abilities.

I don't think it's about muscle or age. It's just what fit for story. I don't think it would be good gamplay with you using guns and enemies using melees. When Drifter uses melee it makes fight challenging.

On 2022-08-22 at 7:33 PM, Silligoose said:

You want players to take a little more time to deal with this more dangerous enemy, say 3 seconds at minimum, but you can't really do that, because if it lasts 3 seconds when the weapon is boosted, it is going to last far longer against the non-boosted version or other weapons.

That's why I hate "damage approach". For smaller games it may work. For such big game it's very hard to balance over damage.

Immortal phases (time gating) could be better but it could be like Vor fight. It was horrible fight.

On 2022-08-23 at 3:12 PM, Venus-Venera said:

On 2022-08-22 at 6:26 PM, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

personally my hope is when he said no umbras in works currently, we will get a surprise few now due to these conflicting actions, given he also said in his prior interview NO reworks or changes were to happen, and now mag, wukong, grendal, excalibur are up for changes,nerfs, reworks month later. 

 

does he want to ruin mag? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♀️
mag has top skill against ranged. but that was it. and volt/mag are strong warframes, but way too easy to kill.

but logic is not available. hence...

On 2022-08-23 at 6:22 PM, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

l to my understanding of the reworking situations i shall attempt to explain 

The reasoning behind Excalibur and mag are to be changed, it is being to match their setup in the trailer for the start of the game (so no false advertisement is done) though imo volt should also be touched then .... by same reasoning 

From my understanding it's meant to change start up frames (Excal, Mag and Volt) to be more "new player friendly". This may cascade to "higher level content".

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 minutes ago, quxier said:

Mesa don't trivialize them. I still have to bullet jump & Peacemaker enemies. Not everyone plays with team and with increased number of team, game should be harder.

However it's not exactly about powers. It's about being able to choice.

 

Bullet jumping is a normal function of the game.....and peacemaker can be made easier to use by holster mods....just in case you didn't know.

DE never stated a player is guaranteed to use 1 frame for every mission.

It's just kinda common sense you're gonna have to switch frames for some situations every now and then.