AoE/Single Target Balancing

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

On 2022-08-22 at 1:36 AM, Lutesque said:

Literally the only Solution.... 

 Nerfing AoE in Warframe is like Nerfing AoE in Dynasty/Hyrule Warriors.... It doesnt Make Sense.

 Other Games like what ? What Other Game has Warframe's Kill Count WITHOUT some type of way to Deal with Multiple Enemies 🤔 ?

 

Enemy density is lower in Warframe than your example (there are usually less than 40 enemies spawned at once and even less depending on the game mode). The other games that I was referring to were games such as Borderlands, Halo, Doom, etc. which do have AoE weapons/attacks, but they are not usually as prevalent as in Warframe due to ammo economy and/or trigger requirements.

[Frendh]

Single target should not become better at dealing with groups of enemies.  Making single target becoming better at Single targets would make sense though. Right now there is not much incentive to switching to single target. But then the boss' EHP would need to be rebalanced.

My biggest beef is that a lot of rapid fire weapons has decent or bad DPS(as opposed to good or great) and no way near enough ammo to be fun to play around with. Especially for 2ndaries.

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

On 2022-08-22 at 10:28 AM, Venus-Venera said:

I don't even want to know if this is meant seriously.
because since when is solo gameplay not possible? or have premade groups been abolished?

or should no one play frost in public because some ..... joker writes negative experiences about it in the forum?

I never said that it was impossible to solo anything (premades are a hassel, but still exist), I said that the reason people play on public with single target weapons is the same reason play on public with AoE weapons. At least with Frost it is hard to actively sabotage a mission with Snowglobe and his Avalanche is one of the slower AoE attacks (though idk why you would even bring him up).

[Kaiune]

My guesses that the targets of the nerf will be what allows one to effectively use them in the capacity they are used. Id put my bets on a return of self damage and some kind of change to PSF. 

[Sakatchi]

I'll go with option E where you buff other weapons up to the point where they're competitive with aoe weapons.

This way, aoe users don't get their toys nerfed, and people that don't use aoe can actually snag a kill or two away from them.

Nerfing things isn't the only solution ever you know.

[Tyreaus]

5 hours ago, Sakatchi said:

I'll go with option E where you buff other weapons up to the point where they're competitive with aoe weapons.

Buff in what way? More damage, leaving the vast majority of content (where most things fall over from a stiff breeze) in the same state as current? Do we give them AoE options? Radial, like existing AoE? Chaining, like a new ricochet option?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Sakatchi:

I'll go with option E where you buff other weapons up to the point where they're competitive with aoe weapons.

This way, aoe users don't get their toys nerfed, and people that don't use aoe can actually snag a kill or two away from them.

Nerfing things isn't the only solution ever you know.

actually it's just about 1 weapon. because the rest is either looking for ammo or hardly get anything dead.

and because it's about low lvl range, then we have ignis wrath. every mr9 gets this thing for free and it doesn't even need ammo mutation. that thing cleans the room almost as fast. mainly because we are dealing with shield gating here.
when devs ruin popular aoe weapons (they do it all the time) it becomes just another epic fail. because why should a beginner farm other useless trash when ignis wrath has top performance and he can play with it up to mr32?
because i often read fairy tales that kuva zarr is so imba. only which mods, gear and arcanes does this thing need? in addition, without reload/dmg/crit buffs and possibly even top riven, it performs miserably. Yeah right! the absolute high-end gear! and players with this items don't want to play at a snail's pace like a grandma.

[Pakaku]

7 hours ago, Sakatchi said:

I'll go with option E where you buff other weapons up to the point where they're competitive with aoe weapons.

This way, aoe users don't get their toys nerfed, and people that don't use aoe can actually snag a kill or two away from them.

Nerfing things isn't the only solution ever you know.

It's pointless to buff non-AoE weapons for the sake of power equality when almost all enemies are already too easy to kill. (A general buff/update to a lot of outdated bullet-based weapons would be nice, however)

I'd rather see something like making Eximus enemies a lot more resistant to AoE and chained-beam damage, but much weaker to direct hits from standard guns. That way AoE and chain users can keep doing what they do by clearing out most of the fodder quickly, without leaving the more-precision users with nothing to shoot at.

[Sakatchi]

I like the direction this went, and how people actually asked how you'd buff them.

I was thinking a bit about it and came up with two things:

1. Make aoe weapons have line of sight requirements so things can take cover, and give the ai the ability to take cover when they see rockets and such flying around.

This makes it so you cant simply scoot around at the speed of light and nuke entire maps with your bramma or whatever

2. Give non aoe weapons a stacking bonus to damage similar to galvanized mods, but have it be an innate thing instead. So for example if you hit the same target in x amount of time you'd get a x% damage buff.

This would reward non aoe weapon users damage competitive with aoe weapons, without actually buffing the weapon's base damage. This could be part of a weapon upgrade quest, and the material for this could be yet another forma or potato. But I would kind of like it if it were a tool kit or something.

[kinoko_takenoko]

The reason AoE is a powerful means of attack is the nature of the enemy.
Many missions in WARFRAME are small, fast, and with many enemies.
Missions with large, slow, and few enemies are lacking.
(Even the Boss fight is surrounded by a large number of enemies. The only exception would be Eidolon.)

In a situation where only missions and enemies given the nature that should be attacked by AoE, there is no reason to use anything but AoE, and it is wrong to say "AoE should not be active" in such a situation.
First of all, please create a scene for non-AoE to be active.

Also, it is necessary to change the current situation where many single-target attack methods are inferior in the amount of damage they can do to a single enemy.
The way to achieve this should not be by nerfing AoE but by buffing other weapons.
(Since we have been enhancing enemies based on the stronger weapons used by the player, nerfing only the player's weapons will only over-enhance the performance of the enemy.)

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb kinoko_takenoko:

The reason AoE is a powerful means of attack is the nature of the enemy.
Many missions in WARFRAME are small, fast, and with many enemies.
Missions with large, slow, and few enemies are lacking.
(Even the Boss fight is surrounded by a large number of enemies. The only exception would be Eidolon.)

In a situation where only missions and enemies given the nature that should be attacked by AoE, there is no reason to use anything but AoE, and it is wrong to say "AoE should not be active" in such a situation.
First of all, please create a scene for non-AoE to be active.

Also, it is necessary to change the current situation where many single-target attack methods are inferior in the amount of damage they can do to a single enemy.
The way to achieve this should not be by nerfing AoE but by buffing other weapons.
(Since we have been enhancing enemies based on the stronger weapons used by the player, nerfing only the player's weapons will only over-enhance the performance of the enemy.)

in addition, almost all warframes cannot tank and the incoming damage is far too high. mele is mostly suicide with no constant healing or i lose sentinel. and I have top gear.
and only 2 aoe weapons do reasonable damage. where 1 weapon was ruined by the heroes and now it's pure adventure with ammo searching. so in the end it's only about 1 weapon. but this 1 weapon is pointless without maxed sp arcane, top mods, top riven, dmg/reload/crit buffs. because ignis wrath performs better.

and anyone who thinks this great aoe weapon is so imba should play with it on sp with gyre and not spread mischief.

Yes. single target needs buff. EXTREMELY good buff...

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

14 hours ago, Sakatchi said:

I'll go with option E where you buff other weapons up to the point where they're competitive with aoe weapons.

This way, aoe users don't get their toys nerfed, and people that don't use aoe can actually snag a kill or two away from them.

Nerfing things isn't the only solution ever you know.

Option A was where single target weapons get a buff... The reason why I don't think just a damage buff will make single target equal to AoE is that when you get to the point where every weapon one-shots every enemy (which is the end result of power creep) AoE will still be substantially better (especially large, fast AoEs) despite efforts to make them equal. Also (looking at your other comment), adding a line of sight requirement to AoE would count as a nerf.

[Frendh]

2 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

in addition, almost all warframes cannot tank and the incoming damage is far too high. mele is mostly suicide with no constant healing or i lose sentinel. and I have top gear.
and only 2 aoe weapons do reasonable damage. where 1 weapon was ruined by the heroes and now it's pure adventure with ammo searching. so in the end it's only about 1 weapon. but this 1 weapon is pointless without maxed sp arcane, top mods, top riven, dmg/reload/crit buffs. because ignis wrath performs better.

and anyone who thinks this great aoe weapon is so imba should play with it on sp with gyre and not spread mischief.

Yes. single target needs buff. EXTREMELY good buff...

At what level of gameplay are you talking about here?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)BARLEYDAWG:

Option A was where single target weapons get a buff... The reason why I don't think just a damage buff will make single target equal to AoE is that when you get to the point where every weapon one-shots every enemy (which is the end result of power creep) AoE will still be substantially better (especially large, fast AoEs) despite efforts to make them equal. Also (looking at your other comment), adding a line of sight requirement to AoE would count as a nerf.

how do you one-shot shield gating mechanic?
ogris usually needs more than 2-3 shot with kick ass mods. great fairy tales......
even ignis wrath or acceltra perform much better and these are NOOB weapons!

and that awesome (and not bugged) "line of sight" mechanic made khora 1st skill only seen on youtube.

[Tyreaus]

9 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

how do you one-shot shield gating mechanic?

Headshots, toxin, or sufficient raw damage since the shield gate provides 95% DR, not 100%.

There's also the looser definition of "one-shot" meaning "one shot out of the barrel" rather than "one damage tick". That opens up DoT effects like Slash.

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

On 2022-08-25 at 11:52 AM, Venus-Venera said:

how do you one-shot shield gating mechanic?
ogris usually needs more than 2-3 shot with kick ass mods. great fairy tales......
even ignis wrath or acceltra perform much better and these are NOOB weapons!

and that awesome (and not bugged) "line of sight" mechanic made khora 1st skill only seen on youtube.

In addition to what Tryeaus said about negating shield gates with headshots and toxin damage (being able to bypass shield gates with headshots was included in the update that added shield gates and toxin bypassing shields has been a thing for even longer that shield gates), not every enemy has shields to begin with. Going from being able to hit everything in an area to not being able to hit something in the area because it is behind a wall would still be a reduction of performance (ie. a nerf) regardless of how minor the change may seem.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)BARLEYDAWG:

In addition to what Tryeaus said about negating shield gates with headshots and toxin damage (being able to bypass shield gates with headshots was included in the update that added shield gates and toxin bypassing shields has been a thing for even longer that shield gates), not every enemy has shields to begin with. Going from being able to hit everything in an area to not being able to hit something in the area because it is behind a wall would still be a reduction of performance (ie. a nerf) regardless of how minor the change may seem.

even if it should be, headshots are actually rare. because after a few hours of playing against very primitive and boring opponents, the reaction and motivation for aiming decreases extremely.

maybe this can work in pvp game. but here we are fighting against cannon fodder.

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

6 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

even if it should be, headshots are actually rare. because after a few hours of playing against very primitive and boring opponents, the reaction and motivation for aiming decreases extremely.

maybe this can work in pvp game. but here we are fighting against cannon fodder.

The projectile itself doesn't need to be a headshot for the AoE to score headshots. It is mentioned on the page for Penta (and I'm sure a number of other pages for AoE weapons) that the explosion just needs to be above the enemy to score a headshot.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)BARLEYDAWG said:

The projectile itself doesn't need to be a headshot for the AoE to score headshots. It is mentioned on the page for Penta (and I'm sure a number of other pages for AoE weapons) that the explosion just needs to be above the enemy to score a headshot.

This capability for radial (weapon?) damage to hit heads is getting removed as part of their AoE nerfs.  Which I think is mostly a nerf to Bramma and Penta players who took advantage of their detonate mechanics.

(It seems likely this will apply to weak points in general.  If so that will be  sad for Banshee players who rely on AoE.)

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

On 2022-08-27 at 10:09 AM, Tiltskillet said:

This capability for radial (weapon?) damage to hit heads is getting removed as part of their AoE nerfs.  Which I think is mostly a nerf to Bramma and Penta players who took advantage of their detonate mechanics.

(It seems likely this will apply to weak points in general.  If so that will be  sad for Banshee players who rely on AoE.)

I think the devs are just disabling AoE from proccing "on headshot" and "on headshot kill" effects (including headshot damage bonus and bypassing shield gates without toxin), but the AoE would still be able to tell which body part it hits which would mean that it would still get bonus damage from Sonar. Granted, Sonar was most likely designed with precision in mind so it shouldn't come as a surprise if AoE wouldn't be able to interact with Sonar spots after the AoE rework.

[--Q--Davorito--Q--]

On 2022-08-20 at 10:50 AM, (PSN)Silver1593 said:

Just buff the bad weapons and leave aoe alone

YES!

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)BARLEYDAWG said:

I think the devs are just disabling AoE from proccing "on headshot" and "on headshot kill" effects (including headshot damage bonus and bypassing shield gates without toxin), but the AoE would still be able to tell which body part it hits which would mean that it would still get bonus damage from Sonar. Granted, Sonar was most likely designed with precision in mind so it shouldn't come as a surprise if AoE wouldn't be able to interact with Sonar spots after the AoE rework.

Thinking about this more, I doubt the intent is to affect Sonar weak points.  Mainly because of the synergy with Sound Quake, but also a bunch of nice interactions with other frames' abilities.

I can see them forgetting about Sonar entirely and doing it accidentally though. :P

[Lutesque]

On 2022-08-24 at 5:50 PM, (XBOX)BARLEYDAWG said:

Enemy density is lower in Warframe than your example (there are usually less than 40 enemies spawned at once and even less depending on the game mode). The other games that I was referring to were games such as Borderlands, Halo, Doom, etc. which do have AoE weapons/attacks, but they are not usually as prevalent as in Warframe due to ammo economy and/or trigger requirements.

Haven't Played Borderlands and Halo but I know for a Fact I don't Kill 150 Enemies per Mission in Doom and I definitely Have not Seen more than 15 Active Enemies at Any Given Time in Any Of Doom's Levels....

And even then.... Doom knows that  that's it's All About Killing Enemies and it's Design Reflects that... You might not Have Infinite Ammo on your BFG but Every other Gun you use Does Not Reload.... Because just like Bows in Warframe They don't Have Magazines.... You Always Draw from your Total Ammo Pool because in Game with that Much Murder it only Makes Sense....

Doom Also Doesn't have Aim Bots¯\_(ツ)_/¯

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

 

I can see them forgetting about Sonar entirely and doing it accidentally though. :P

Indeed... They've done it before.... But After This has Happened so Many Times Don't you think it's only Fair They are Held Accountable for Repeating the Same Accident over and Over Again 🤔....

Even Normal people Learn from their Accidents enough to not Repeat them.

[BR31]

Buffing the absolute fodder weapons with high mr req sounds good.
But primarily we need more singetarget content .
Void cascade and disruption is a great start. Boss rush or something would be good.

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

On 2022-08-30 at 4:50 PM, Lutesque said:

Haven't Played Borderlands and Halo but I know for a Fact I don't Kill 150 Enemies per Mission in Doom and I definitely Have not Seen more than 15 Active Enemies at Any Given Time in Any Of Doom's Levels....

And even then.... Doom knows that  that's it's All About Killing Enemies and it's Design Reflects that... You might not Have Infinite Ammo on your BFG but Every other Gun you use Does Not Reload.... Because just like Bows in Warframe They don't Have Magazines.... You Always Draw from your Total Ammo Pool because in Game with that Much Murder it only Makes Sense....

Doom Also Doesn't have Aim Bots¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

It is pretty common to kill 100+ enemies in a mission in Halo and Borderlands has multiple challenges where you need to kill 1000+ enemies of the same type. I said 40 enemies max at once because that is the cap on Grendel, but with a max range Saryn I rarely, if ever, get 25 enemies with Spores on them at once even when I'm not fighting with other Saryns for enemies to put Spores on. Single-instance enemy count really isn't that much higher than other shooters (at least most of the ones I've played) despite people calling Warframe a horde shooter. Considering that some people mod aim bots into to their games (mostly to cheat) regardless of enemy count, the presence of one character with an aim bot ability doesn't mean a whole lot.