QoL needed for Khora… and for everyone else.

[Yulfan]

Khora is a powerful frame. She is in a pretty comfortable spot, able to dish out really satisfying damages without being over the top. She is quite flexible in what you can do with her and you can basically engage with almost every type of content of every difficulty. This is the reason i like this warframe so much.

But when it comes to team play, certains aspects of her kit conflicts with other players. And it's tied to two abilities:

STRANGLEDOME

Strangledome is a really interesting ability that can do both hard and soft CC, by catching nearby enemies into it and by drawing the enmity of others toward them. It's not a totally passive ability either. If you simply wait enemies to be trapped by it, you will be dissapointed since ranged enemies tend to stay out of range, focusing firing at their former allies inside it. To maximize his potential and renew your stock of "meat shield", you are incentivize to use Ensnare on trapped enemies. By doing so, you can dramaticaly increase the catching range since Ensnare will drag enemies inside the Strangledome. Using Ensnare also spread the damage vulnerability to Whipclaw to all enemies in range, including those inside the Strangledome. Overall a very nice synergy.

And the cherry on top is that one Khora doesn't conflict with another since you can use Whipclaw on another Khora's Strangledome and it will still distribute the damages as intended. However, we can't say the same for other non-Khora players. Strangledome can become the dread of the playerbase (and of Khora's players themself) for one obvious reason: the spiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin~!!

This problem is certainly one of the most annoying thing of the entire game. When an enemy start to spin at Mach 10, it's almost impossible to intercept him. Shooting directly at him is ridiculously difficult and you can't even Whipclaw him directly if he is in one of the upper nodes of Strangledome because you may not have a surface nearby to hit him with the aoe. The only "reliable" ways is either to Whipclaw a more tamed enemy and spread the damages, or use large enough aoe weapon to get him.

 

That's why the QoL change is quite obvious and has already been asked numerous times over the years: enemies caught by Strangledome need to be locked in place, either by quickly negate all momentum, or by straight up snapping enemies on the nodes of Strangledome. It will allow everyone to shoot at them reliably when needed instead of sitting here while waiting Khora to come to do the cleaning.

 

OK: this QoL was quite obvious, but the next one tend to fly under the radar.

 

ENSNARE

Ensnare is another CC ability which grabs and groups the enemies around the target. At first glance, that's all there is to it: you cast Ensnare, enemies are grouped, grofit. But no, Ensnare has a lot more to it:

• The first mechanics is its diffusion. Ensnare is a two-times pull: after casting the ability on the target and a short delay, a first pull will occur on all enemies in range who will be disabled for 75% of the duration of the ability. Then those who got caught will also perform a second pull on unaffected enemies, also disabling them for 75% of the previously reduced duration.
• The second mechanics is less obvious: when Ensnared, hitting an enemy with Whipclaw will refresh the effect and trigger a new pull occurrence. This mechanics can be really useful to CC a constant flow of enemies… if you can pull it off, which is almost impossible to witness (and even less to exploit) because the target never survive long enough, making it an useless gimmick…

 

But let's put aside the refresh for the moment. The main mechanics of Ensnare is it's diffusion. So what is the problem there? It once again come to teamplay. Ensnare is the only grouping ability in the game that both need a target and a delay to do it's thing. The consequences are obvious: if the target is killed before the spread occur, the ability is completely wasted and the energy cost lost. And while a Khora player alone can strategically use Ensnare and wait for the spread to maximize it's effect, it's simply unmanageable in a team play setting (even more if automatically matchmade).

How often are you using Ensnare or are you seeing a Khora player using it with other players around? Most likely rarely, or never even. Any Khora player will use Ensnare when they are sure there is nobody around. Khora players can't use Ensnare alongside other players because more often than not, the target will die before the spread due to teammates attacks. In contrast to Strangledome that can be a pain to others players, Ensnare is an ability whose usage can be completely ruined by them.

And it's a shame because it kills in the bud a whole supportive aspect of Khora.

Khora is a warframe that exploit her high range to disable enemies before coming in their attack range. That's the purpose of her whole kit and her main way of survivability: You use Whipclaw to kill enemies before they can reach you. You cast Ensnare from afar and then you can safely reap the lives of those poor preys. You plant Strangldome somewhere to trap enemies in it and to kill everyone while they are disabled/distracted. Even Venari (if you didn't subsume her, lol) is used either by sending her ahead of you to attack enemies, distracting or disarming them, or at the very least healing you when you make a mistake. Everything in Khora revolve around using her abilities preemptively.

Khora is a heavily CC warframe, and the nice thing about CC is that other players can usually benefit from it too. But because of the actual state of Ensnare, you can't use it ahead of the team to ease the work of others.

 

That's why Ensnare need to receive the same treatment as Garuda's Blood Altar or Xaku's Gaze: the initial target of Ensnare need to become invulnerable while storing all damages inflicted, receiving it in full when the invulnerability expires. This way, Khora players (and anyone with the ability subsumed) will no longer be afraid of having Ensnare casts wasted by others and the grouping will be able to be performed in full for the benefit of everyone. On top of it, ensuring the survival of the target will finally make it possible to exploit the refresh mechanic, which as i said before could be really useful when facing a constant flow of enemies, to the point it could even be used over Strangledome depending of the needs.

 

Ensnare already have enough drawbacks to offset this addition: the need of a target, the various delays and the diminished duration with each spread. All that remains is to prevent scenarios where this invulnerability would be inconvenient. It's the case with high-priority targets (like all bosses, Acolytes, Demolysts, Thraxs, Kuva Liches/Sisters of Parvos, etc…) since in their case, we don't use Ensnare to group enemies but specifically to disable the target. We don't need or want to unsure their survival, especially the Thrax since we need to kill them to trigger their second form. They all already have increasing resistance or cleansing ability preventing it to last long enough to be annoying but to make it totally foolproof, the easier and most straightforward way is to simply disable the invulnerability for them specifically.

 

The question now is how to implement this invulnerability. While it's quite simply to make it work with the survival of the target in mind during the spread, it become more complex when trying to make the refresh mechanic usable and relevant.

 

The first method is the most straightforward: the invulnerability last for the whole duration of Ensnare. The advantage is that it allows free use of the refresh mechanics to keep grouping enemies around the Ensnared target at any time. However, it paradoxically locks this enemy who cannot die for the whole duration of Ensnare. This kind of situation can be observed with Blood Altar and Gaze when living-dead enemies are left behind with no purpose. This can become quite disruptive for the rest of the team in many scenarios.

To avoid this problem, the solution could be to use the same method used by Blood Altar and Gaze: holding down the ability key while aiming directly at the Ensnared target releases it early and inflict the damages stored. But once again, the problem that emerges from this is that the player must manually release the target and in Warframe, the "cast and forget" is the most common behavior among players. Again, like Blood Altar and Gaze, Ensnare would become another source of living-dead enemies in the mission (especially since Ensnare has no target cap: you can cast it on as many target as you want as long as they are unaffected by other Ensnare instances).

An additional solution then would be if an Ensnared target don't have any enemy around to grab, the invulnerablity wear off after a few seconds. It would prevent to leave a survivor behind when we need to move to another location. But AGAIN, this is a problem in cases where there is an uninterrupted flow of enemies whose presence would maintain the invulnerability of the target.

At this point, we enter a succession of bandaids solutions for each particular cases, and this is bad game design…

 

The second (and better) method is to create a short invincibility state which can be extended as the player actively refreshes Ensnare for additional spreads. It encourages a more active management of this refresh mechanic while allowing the invincibility state to disappear more easily once we no longer need it. Like this, the whole Ensnare can be performed fully (including the initial delay and both spreads from the intial target and from the branch targets), and the target become killable again fairly quickly.

Here is how it would be done:

• When Ensnared, the target would enter the invincibility state (and store damages inflicted, etc, same as before). This invincibility wear off few seconds after the first spread has occured (for example 5 seconds. To discuss whether it's affected by mods or not. Maybe building for more duration to gain more leeway is desirable…).
• The only way to prolong it would be by using Whipclaw on it to refresh it. A new spread would occur from the initial target (as it already is), and the few seconds of invicibility would be refreshed (capped to the initial 5 seconds).
• Only by keeping using Whipclaw on the target within this time window the player would be able to maintain the target's invicibility while continuing to catch the enemies around, until the end of the Ensnare duration.
• If Whipclaw is used after the invincibility wear off, the new spread would still occur but the target would no longer be protected (and will most likely die).

Since every single new grab instances last for 75% of the actual duration of Ensnare, there is a diminishing return making the whole thing fairly balanced. At one point, it wouldn't be profitable to maintain the same Ensnare and the player would prefer to start a new one. Moreover, since the invincibility is so short-lived by default, there is no need for an hold function to release the target early.

 

And that's it. I think these two changes would be very beneficial both for Khora users and those playing alongside them 😉

[taiiat]

we don't have to remove all movement from Enemies that are caught in Strangledome, the visual as designed can be adjusted. if Enemies caught by it had a permanent anti-inertia / counter-momentum force applied to them, deadening any imparted movement over time, that would be plenty.

4 hours ago, Yulfan said:

if the target is killed before the spread occur, the ability is completely wasted and the energy cost lost.

i haven't paid attention before, are you sure the Energy isn't refunded? most Abilities do.

4 hours ago, Yulfan said:

That's why Ensnare need to receive the same treatment as Garuda's Blood Altar or Xaku's Gaze: the initial target of Ensnare need to become invulnerable while storing all damages inflicted during the ability duration, receiving it in full when it expires.

i play Khora sometimes and i wouldn't want this. maybe making the Enemy Invulnerable for the first Second, maybe two. but also as long as i get refunded, i'm not bothered. if Enemies are 'dying too fast', that means the Ability isn't really needed.

i already would like when i'm playing Garuda or Xaku, to be able to.... cancel these Abilities and release the Enemies both so that i can continue using the Abilities elsewhere, and specifically so that those Enemies, can, well, die. locking Enemies away can be an obstruction to Gameplay.

 

 

 

 

however, that does bring up an idea, though unrelated. what if Ensnare had a Hold Cast, or an Augment, that let you place 'Concertino Wire boobytraps'. so rather than Casting it on an Enemy you'd place down a Mine that when sprung by an Enemy coming near it, would become a comedic Horror scene of being devoured and buried inside of a bundle of Razorwire.

[BiancaRoughfin]

I dont have much issue with enemies spinning or dangling about, my only issue with Khora`s Strangledome/Ensnare and other CC frame abilities are enemies getting stuck in the scenario/tilesets due to them being pulled towards the abilities, this not only slows down the pace of missions but also forces players to run about trying to find there these enemies got stuck to kill them, making endless missions take longer to finish.

I would love it if DE made all CC abilities be Line of Sight, this way it will only grab enemies that can be properly dragged towards the center of the ability making it more efficient and also allowing it to focus more on enemies that might be a more imminent danger to the team.

[Yulfan]

Il y a 2 heures, taiiat a dit :

we don't have to remove all movement from Enemies that are caught in Strangledome, the visual as designed can be adjusted. if Enemies caught by it had a permanent anti-inertia / counter-momentum force applied to them, deadening any imparted movement over time, that would be plenty.

That what i said when proposing to nullify the momentum in one way or another instead of letting the physic engine trying to open some portal to another dimension by spinning these grineers around. But to be honest, i must admit this is not an issue most of the time. The dangling stay manageable more often than not. But when this mad spin effect happen, it's really annoying and can be disruptive.

Il y a 2 heures, taiiat a dit :

i haven't paid attention before, are you sure the Energy isn't refunded? most Abilities do.

Alas, i can assure you it's the case. There is no refund whatsoever.

Il y a 2 heures, taiiat a dit :

i play Khora sometimes and i wouldn't want this. maybe making the Enemy Invulnerable for the first Second, maybe two. but also as long as i get refunded, i'm not bothered. if Enemies are 'dying too fast', that means the Ability isn't really needed.

i already would like when i'm playing Garuda or Xaku, to be able to.... cancel these Abilities and release the Enemies both so that i can continue using the Abilities elsewhere, and specifically so that those Enemies, can, well, die. locking Enemies away can be an obstruction to Gameplay.

I don't play Garuda and Xaku but according to the wiki, that's already the case for both:

So in the same way, an Ensnared enemy could be released early by holding 2 while aiming at him.

It's not about the enemy target dying too fast but the fact that his survival is mandatory for the ability to perform correctly. This should be adressed one way or another. I proposed the invulnerability because it's a mechanics DE already used for others abilities and have proven their effectiveness. Another way would be that the Ensnare effect linger on the corpse so it can keep working as intended, but it would be a different way to code the ability to reach the same result in the end. I'm just trying to keep things simple and within known territories to make the proposal more feasible.

And as i said, that would also make the refresh mechanics finally usable. It's a shame that there is a whole aspect of this ability completely unusable because of a small oversight. I believe making this mechanics work could add depth, flexibility and allow more creative ways to use the ability.

Il y a 2 heures, taiiat a dit :

however, that does bring up an idea, though unrelated. what if Ensnare had a Hold Cast, or an Augment, that let you place 'Concertino Wire boobytraps'. so rather than Casting it on an Enemy you'd place down a Mine that when sprung by an Enemy coming near it, would become a comedic Horror scene of being devoured and buried inside of a bundle of Razorwire.

Strangledome is already a stationary trap catching anyone who gets too close. It would be redundant :/

Il y a 1 heure, BiancaRoughfin a dit :

I dont have much issue with enemies spinning or dangling about, my only issue with Khora`s Strangledome/Ensnare and other CC frame abilities are enemies getting stuck in the scenario/tilesets due to them being pulled towards the abilities, this not only slows down the pace of missions but also forces players to run about trying to find there these enemies got stuck to kill them, making endless missions take longer to finish.

I would love it if DE made all CC abilities be Line of Sight, this way it will only grab enemies that can be properly dragged towards the center of the ability making it more efficient and also allowing it to focus more on enemies that might be a more imminent danger to the team.

This is indeed a recurring problem that can disrupt the game flow. But i wouldn't strictly prevent CC when out-of-sight. I'm sure there is ways to allow CC'ed enemies to avoid obstacles.

The other warframe i play a lot is Sevagoth. His 1 allow to send his Shadow in front of him to debuff enemies and the interesting part is that the Shadow do have a really smart and flexible pathing system. It can avoid or circle around a lot of obstacles. This kind of pathing tech could be used for enemies ragdolled by CC abilities to find their way toward the epicenter. I think it would already help a lot with this issue.

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, Yulfan said:

I don't play Garuda and Xaku but according to the wiki, that's already the case for both:

So in the same way, an Ensnared enemy could be released early by holding 2 while aiming at him.

oh, no wonder i didn't know of those features for those Abilities then. it's really clunky.
similarly, something like that for Ensnare would also be rather clunky. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i'm open to something, i just prioritize not impacting Gameplay the most.

7 hours ago, Yulfan said:

Strangledome is already a stationary trap catching anyone who gets too close. It would be redundant :/

that's fair, it was just a spitball on the spot.

7 hours ago, Yulfan said:

This is indeed a recurring problem that can disrupt the game flow. But i wouldn't strictly prevent CC when out-of-sight. I'm sure there is ways to allow CC'ed enemies to avoid obstacles.

the easiest would probably be Enemies that are caught by Strangledome but don't actually reach it within say, 5 or 6 Seconds or so, fall back out of it. then atleast it gives then an opportunity to move to a new position that may not be on the opposite side of a Wall or something.

well i mean the easiest would be for Strangledome to Teleport Enemies to it, but that would be way too convenient, ofcourse. that's not really a reasonable way to address it.

[Yulfan]

Il y a 6 heures, taiiat a dit :

oh, no wonder i didn't know of those features for those Abilities then. it's really clunky.
similarly, something like that for Ensnare would also be rather clunky. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i'm open to something, i just prioritize not impacting Gameplay the most.

How is that clunky? To cast these abilities in the first place, you have to aim at an enemy from afar and press a key, which is exactly the same thing. So why would it become clunky all of the sudden?

But i know why you would be reluctant. I also witnessed enemies under the effect of Blood Altar or Gaze left somewhere during endurance runs without any monitoring. They can indeed be distracting when passing by them or fighting around them. Same thing with Frost's Snow Globe or any ability lingering on the fied that might annoy other players. But in that case, the problem doesn't lie in the practicality of the feature but in the player behavior. If someone forget to release a target or remove an obstacle when moving elsewhere, it's not the ability fault but the player's.

Nevertheless, i had specified a method to prevent this situation in my original post:

Il y a 20 heures, Yulfan a dit :

In a same fashion, a final addition to make Ensnare more convenient would be if an Ensnared target don't have any enemy around to grab, the invulnerablity wear off after a few seconds. It would prevent to leave a survivor behind when we need to move to another location.

This way, the target don't stay invulnerable if there is no need for it, and anyone can kill it.

 

Il y a 6 heures, taiiat a dit :

the easiest would probably be Enemies that are caught by Strangledome but don't actually reach it within say, 5 or 6 Seconds or so, fall back out of it. then atleast it gives then an opportunity to move to a new position that may not be on the opposite side of a Wall or something.

well i mean the easiest would be for Strangledome to Teleport Enemies to it, but that would be way too convenient, ofcourse. that's not really a reasonable way to address it.

As i said before, trying to add some pathfinding to the ragdolled enemies could help to unstuck those caugh by little obstacles. It could help to alleviate the issue. But overall, Strangledome is certainly the ability the less impacted by this because no matter where the enemy is, as long as they are technically caught by the Strangledome, they will take damage from Whipclaw through the spread mechanic.

The thing is: BiancaRoughfin complaint is about all CC abilities in general, and it's a problem that goes beyond the scope of the proposal i am making here. This is not the issue i wanted to address in this thread so if you want to suggest a change to CC abilities, it would be better to create a proper proposal in a new thread.

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, Yulfan said:

How is that clunky? To cast these abilities in the first place, you have to aim at an enemy from afar and press a key, which is exactly the same thing. So why would it become clunky all of the sudden?

activating is generally as simple as "point kinda towards some Enemies, and tap/mash the Button until it does its thing". versus having to intentionally focus on a particular spot and Hold a Button for a Second or two.
the initial Cast can be done without breaking the flow of the game, essentially. Frost shooting Freeze at a Snowglobe generally gets a pass because Snowglobe is big, so you don't have to stop performing complex movement to Hold that Button, you can just fire it over that-a-way and it'll still do what you expected it to do.

10 hours ago, Yulfan said:

But i know why you would be reluctant. I also witnessed enemies under the effect of Blood Altar or Gaze left somewhere during endurance runs without any monitoring.

If someone forget to release a target or remove an obstacle when moving elsewhere, it's not the ability fault but the player's.

"not my fault, but my problem" - technically it's not the fault of the game there, but in practice, it's the Lowest Common Denominator that's still impacting the Gameplay, no matter whos fault it's supposed to technically be. the problem ended up happening either way. :)

10 hours ago, Yulfan said:

Nevertheless, i had specified a method to prevent this situation in my original post:

This way, the target don't stay invulnerable if there is no need for it, and anyone can kill it.

it definitely covers Gamemodes like Defense, but ones that don't run out of Enemies, i'm less sure of. if it's like, no Enemies within __ for __ Seconds, i'm then concerned about the continuing streams of Enemies potentially triggering that somewhat indefinitely. and then relying on the Player to dispel it themselves, which can't be relied upon. and even probably shouldn't be. just because i would manage that myself if i had to, it would also be nicer if i just didn't have to.

[quxier]

17 hours ago, taiiat said:

On 2023-01-19 at 8:04 PM, Yulfan said:

I don't play Garuda and Xaku but according to the wiki, that's already the case for both:

So in the same way, an Ensnared enemy could be released early by holding 2 while aiming at him.

oh, no wonder i didn't know of those features for those Abilities then. it's really clunky.
similarly, something like that for Ensnare would also be rather clunky. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i'm open to something, i just prioritize not impacting Gameplay the most.

Abilities like Xaku/Gaze or Ensnare are clunky to use but they are meant to be cast & forget.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

11 hours ago, Yulfan said:

How is that clunky? To cast these abilities in the first place, you have to aim at an enemy from afar and press a key, which is exactly the same thing. So why would it become clunky all of the sudden?

activating is generally as simple as "point kinda towards some Enemies, and tap/mash the Button until it does its thing". versus having to intentionally focus on a particular spot and Hold a Button for a Second or two.
the initial Cast can be done without breaking the flow of the game, essentially. Frost shooting Freeze at a Snowglobe generally gets a pass because Snowglobe is big, so you don't have to stop performing complex movement to Hold that Button, you can just fire it over that-a-way and it'll still do what you expected it to do.

Then why not use Limbo version where it removes rifted enemies by holding ability key. You don't need to even point.

[taiiat]

23 minutes ago, quxier said:

Abilities like Xaku/Gaze or Ensnare are clunky to use but they are meant to be cast & forget.

the Cast isn't clunky, the game picks the nearest Enemy to your point of Aim and generally we care more about it being Cast than Cast on a specific Enemy, so the Cast isn't a problem at all.

24 minutes ago, quxier said:

Then why not use Limbo version where it removes rifted enemies by holding ability key. You don't need to even point.

since Ensnare doesn't have a Hold function currently, yeah, could be.

[Yulfan]

Il y a 11 heures, taiiat a dit :

activating is generally as simple as "point kinda towards some Enemies, and tap/mash the Button until it does its thing". versus having to intentionally focus on a particular spot and Hold a Button for a Second or two.
the initial Cast can be done without breaking the flow of the game, essentially. Frost shooting Freeze at a Snowglobe generally gets a pass because Snowglobe is big, so you don't have to stop performing complex movement to Hold that Button, you can just fire it over that-a-way and it'll still do what you expected it to do.

Hum… well, i guess you are right. I don't have a lot of case i can refer to for this situation. The only one i can think is when i play Sevagoth's Shadow and try to use Consume. This ability need the crosshair to be pixel perfect on the target to work, which can be difficult in the heat of the battle. But most of the time, taking half a second to aim is enough to make it work, which is not that big of a deal. The real problem of Consume is it's stupid forced dash (even after hitting the target) that can throw you at the other side of the room making it a pain to chain between multiple targets (which is requiered when reviving yourself with Sevagoth's passive)…

To make it more forgiving then, the way Xaku's Gaze work (the target automatically chosen inside a cone centered on the aiming reticle) could be a good idea. This targeting method could work too in our case: when holding the key, it automatically select the initial target of Ensnare inside this cone around the aiming reticle and release it. And it can't conflict with the other enemies inside the grouped crowd since there is only one initial Ensnared target.

Il y a 11 heures, taiiat a dit :

it definitely covers Gamemodes like Defense, but ones that don't run out of Enemies, i'm less sure of. if it's like, no Enemies within __ for __ Seconds, i'm then concerned about the continuing streams of Enemies potentially triggering that somewhat indefinitely. and then relying on the Player to dispel it themselves, which can't be relied upon. and even probably shouldn't be. just because i would manage that myself if i had to, it would also be nicer if i just didn't have to.

Do not forget that the Ensnare also has a duration by itself. So no matter how long the invincibility state linger, everything disappear once the ability expire.

But indeed, i can imagine that, even within the Ensnare duration, there can be some cases where we don't want to maintain this state. Then, i have a slightly different method:

• When Ensnared, the target would enter in an invincibility state (and store damages inflicted, etc, same as before). This invincibility wear off few seconds after the first spread has occured (for example 5 seconds, not affected by mods). Like this, the whole Ensnare can be performed fully (including the initial delay and both spreads from the intial target and from the branch targets), and the target become killable again fairly quickly.
• The only way to prolong it would be by using Whipclaw on it to refresh it. A new spread would occur from the initial target (as it already is), and the few seconds of invicibility would be refreshed.
• Only by keeping using Whipclaw on the target within this time window you would be able to maintain his invicibility while continuing to catch the enemies around, until the end of the Ensnare duration.
• If Whipclaw is used after the invincibility wear off, the new spread would still occur but the target would no longer be protected by it.
• Since every single grab instances last for 75% of the actual duration of Ensnare, there is a diminishing return making the whole thing fairly balanced. At one point, it wouldn't be profitable to maintain the same Ensnare and the player would prefer to start a new one.

What do you think?

Il y a 9 heures, quxier a dit :

Then why not use Limbo version where it removes rifted enemies by holding ability key. You don't need to even point.

It would indeed be more desirable. However, there is a problem: several independent instances of Ensnare can exist at the same time. You can't cast Ensnare on an enemy already caught (be it the initial target or any other caught by the spread afterward), but you can cast as many Ensnare as you want on unaffected enemies (and there is no cap). Thus, holding the key should not cancel them all.

This problem could be solved by restricting it to Ensnared target inside our field of view or, as i explained just before, by working only inside a relatively small cone centered on the aiming reticle like Xaku's Gaze. With this, you only need to aim more or less toward the target to make it work.

[taiiat]

34 minutes ago, Yulfan said:

Hum… well, i guess you are right. I don't have a lot of case i can refer to for this situation. The only one i can think is when i play Sevagoth's Shadow and try to use Consume. This ability need the crosshair to be pixel perfect on the target to work, which can be difficult in the heat of the battle. But most of the time, taking half a second to aim is enough to make it work, which is not that big of a deal. The real problem of Consume is it's stupid forced dash (even after hitting the target) that can throw you at the other side of the room making it a pain to chain between multiple targets (which is requiered when reviving yourself with Sevagoth's passive)…

To make it more forgiving then, the way Xaku's Gaze work (the target automatically chosen inside a cone centered on the aiming reticle) could be a good idea. This targeting method could work too in our case: when holding the key, it automatically select the initial target of Ensnare inside this cone around the aiming reticle and release it. And it can't conflict with the other enemies inside the grouped crowd since there is only one initial Ensnared target.

that sounds gross for Sevagoth, most Abilities have aim assist by now, any targeted Abilities that don't, Players should bring that up as something to change about those particular Abilities, it's the status quo to have it.

2 hours ago, Yulfan said:

Do not forget that the Ensnare also has a duration by itself. So no matter how long the invincibility state linger, everything disappear once the ability expire.

that's true, i was thinking about the other Abilities rather than that Ensnare has a much shorter Duration. so it's inherently far less disruptive.

2 hours ago, Yulfan said:

• When Ensnared, the target would enter in an invincibility state (and store damages inflicted, etc, same as before). This invincibility wear off few seconds after the first spread has occured (for example 5 seconds, not affected by mods). Like this, the whole Ensnare can be performed fully (including the initial delay and both spreads from the intial target and from the branch targets), and the target become killable again fairly quickly.
• The only way to prolong it would be by using Whipclaw on it to refresh it. A new spread would occur from the initial target (as it already is), and the few seconds of invicibility would be refreshed.
• Only by keeping using Whipclaw on the target within this time window you would be able to maintain his invicibility while continuing to catch the enemies around, until the end of the Ensnare duration.
• If Whipclaw is used after the invincibility wear off, the new spread would still occur but the target would no longer be protected by it.
• Since every single grab instances last for 75% of the actual duration of Ensnare, there is a diminishing return making the whole thing fairly balanced. At one point, it wouldn't be profitable to maintain the same Ensnare and the player would prefer to start a new one.

What do you think?

that sounds great.

[Yulfan]

Il y a 4 heures, taiiat a dit :

that sounds gross for Sevagoth, most Abilities have aim assist by now, any targeted Abilities that don't, Players should bring that up as something to change about those particular Abilities, it's the status quo to have it.

Yeah… i've often advocated for the ability to be change for behaving a bit like Revenant's Reave (having the hit registered as long as the target enter the Shadow's hitbox), but an aim assist would be nice too. The thing is, the clunkiness of Consume has been highly called out when Sevagoth was released but DE never addressed it. And now that the Call of Tempestarii update subforums are deleted (like how DE proceed now with updates feedbacks), nobody can consult the numerous players requests…

Il y a 4 heures, taiiat a dit :

that sounds great.

Thank. I've edited the original post with this and added some thoughts process ^^