Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst.

[A-Flying-Brick]

I know I'm not the only one who feels this way and I'm really sick of it happening. There are multiple problems with Limbo and he is in dire need of a rework. Most Limbo players I see only do one of two things: spam Cataclysm (Limbo's 4) or randomly banishing/rifting squadmates.

Limbo's 4 is seen as his only "good" ability and this mentality leads to it being overused poorly. At best it's an AoE slow that is easily surpassed by Gloom or Bastille, at worst it's a flashy display of arrogance that can't be shot through in many situations that actively prevents your team from interacting with enemies and actually makes objectives harder to defend. Sure they can deactivate it but that can be even worse, expecially at maximum range as some will repetedly cast it. Constant flashing as well as a good chance of it catching your ability or projectile, rendering it useless. Before any Limbo mains get thingy, I don't know the long list of what does and doesn't get affected off the top of my head. Some are affected when you're in shooting out or outside trying to shoot through or past it. No other ability is this disruptive to other players, except maybe Limbo's 1. A small subset of players seem to think this the perfect strategy for every defence, mobile defence or excavation and will become incredibly toxic when politely asked not to or to at least be mindful of others. It's basic manners to not use an ability if asked when it signifigantly interferes with with someone else's experiance. A simple "Hey Limbo, that ability is stopping me from using x/interfears with x, can you use it elsewhere/use it less?" is often met with it being spamming it in your face, being banished or having rifts dropped in your path. Even outside of those gamemodes these players are hellbent on ruining it for others.

What I find sad is the concept of Limbo is great (and I have a soft spot for magicians) but in practice he's a poor frame used by ego-tripping players for the sole purpose of trying to out-do the rest of their squad only to be the single biggest annoyance and agitator for everyone else. Starting with his passive, make it a choice to enter the Rift. Let other players bullet jump or something to enter it. If it's too fiddly just make the Rift duration longer. Banish is fine but some Limbos do use it to attempt to hold the game hostage, so having it spawn a rift can mitigate this. 2 and 3 are the real problems, no one uses them because rely on enemies being in the void. Stasis is pointless because 4 is already an AoE slow, unless that is removed in favour of making Stasis viable. Rift Surge is just "damage anything that's banished". I get it but it's not great. And then there's Cataclysm. The only decent ability but see above. Personally I'd just make it a void field that gives the extra energy per second plus some ability strength or equivalent and remove the penality of it being shot through.

TL;DR: Limbo sucks and people who play him are generally awful to be around. Here's a suggested rework to fix some of Limbo's toxic elements:

• Passive: Change Rifts so other players have to bullet jump through to enter the Rift Plane. Increase Rift durration to compensate.
• Banish (1): No change but cause it to spawn a Rift or multiple micro Rifts in addition to prevent Limbo players from holding the game hostage. Allow it to be used while on the Rift Plane (at a smallar range) to pull enemies in.
• Stasis (2): Allow it to be used on either side of the Rift with a larger range and longer duration on enemies that have been Banished.
• Rift Surge (3): Complete rework. Suggested: Dash to an open Rift, detonating it and any within range damaging those around them. (akin to Wisp's Breach Surge) Bonus damage if Banished.
• Cataclysm (4): Complete rework. Remove or reduce slow effect and fully remove projectile interuption. Replace with effect simular to Tenshin's ghost aura from Conjunction Survival, restoring 2 energy per second with additional abillity strength/etc. Cast again to detonate damaging all enemies in range. Toggle ability like Equinox's Mend & Maim.
• Replace Cataclysm with Stasis as Railjack Tactical Skill (I know there's already a Tactical mod that is very simular.)
• Augment mods: Rift Haven is fine, Rift Torrent could do more damage for each detonated Rift and Cataclysmic Continuum could restore energy for each kill or cause additional drops (Like Nekros' Desecrate)

[gamingchair1121]

7 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

TL;DR: Limbo sucks

since when

[Pakaku]

Operator mode can usually deal with non-interactive objectives, but sometimes it still breaks, and obviously not everyone knows that or is that far into the questline. Otherwise I don't see much issue with Limbo asides from just being a very one-trick pony (and yes, I know how his 1-3 and rift interactions work)

 

18 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

A simple "Hey Limbo, that ability is stopping me from using x/interfears with x, can you use it elsewhere/use it less?" is often met with it being spamming it in your face, being banished or having rifts dropped in your path. Even outside of those gamemodes these players are hellbent on ruining it for others.

Problem with immature players, not with Limbo himself, and chances are I'll never see them again in future matches

[Mazifet]

11 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Passive: Change Rifts so other players have to bullet jump through to enter the Rift Plane. Increase Rift durration to compensate.

imo the only change to his passive is to remove the little portal. It has no reason to exist and causes a ton of annoyance to both you and your squadmates.

 

12 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

No change but cause it to spawn a Rift or multiple micro Rifts in addition to prevent Limbo players from holding the game hostage. Allow it to be used while on the Rift Plane (at a smallar range) to pull enemies in

wdym by mirco rifts?

 

13 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Stasis (2): Allow it to be used on either side of the Rift with a larger range and longer duration on enemies that have been Banished.

Huh? Stasis doesnt have range at all, it affects all enemies in the rift. And it can be casted on both sides

 

14 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Rift Surge (3): Complete rework. Suggested: Dash to an open Rift, detonating it and any within range damaging those around them. (akin to Wisp's Breach Surge) Bonus damage if Banished.

I think this ability is fine as is, if just a bit confusing.

 

15 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Cataclysm (4): Complete rework. Remove or reduce slow effect and fully remove projectile interuption. Replace with effect simular to Tenshin's ghost aura from Conjunction Survival, restoring 2 energy per second with additional abillity strength/etc. Cast again to detonate damaging all enemies in range. Toggle ability like Equinox's Mend & Maim.

Cataclysm has no slow effect, thats stasis. Additionally enemy projectiles aren't suspended any more, that was changed a long time ago. Limbo already has passive energy regen along with the 10 energy per kill, so the energy bonus is useless. collapsing cataclysm already does damage, just a negligable amount. Also confused on what you would be toggling.

[Numerounius]

6 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Limbo's 4 is seen as his only "good" ability and this mentality leads to it being overused poorly. At best it's an AoE slow that is easily surpassed by Gloom or Bastille,

There is no slow in Limbo's kit. It is called stasis for a reason which isn't even his fourth ability.

 

9 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

it's a flashy display of arrogance that can't be shot through in many situations that actively prevents your team from interacting with enemies and actually makes objectives harder to defend.

I would say this applies to AFK limbo players but not if Limbo actually builds for proper range and duration.

And you forgot the best part, >prevents your team from interacting with enemies objectives

 

11 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Constant flashing as well as a good chance of it catching your ability or projectile, rendering it useless

How to tell someone has never played with a limbo when they use ability and rift in the same sentence yet does not understand the interaction or the lack thereof.  Abilities are not affected by the rift.

 

There is also a teammate effects slider. The flashy thing is something the limbo player themselves are also made aware of so yeah the good Limbo players are likely aware of it and adjusted their colors accordingly. The obnoxious ones are obnoxious in general and not exclusive to limbo. 

 

13 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Before any Limbo mains get thingy, I don't know the long list of what does and doesn't get affected off the top of my head. Some are affected when you're in shooting out or outside trying to shoot through or past it. No other ability is this disruptive to other players, except maybe Limbo's 1. A small subset of players seem to think this the perfect strategy for every defence, mobile defence or excavation and will become incredibly toxic when politely asked not to or to at least be mindful of others. It's basic manners to not use an ability if asked when it signifigantly interferes with with someone else's experiance. A simple "Hey Limbo, that ability is stopping me from using x/interfears with x, can you use it elsewhere/use it less?" is often met with it being spamming it in your face, being banished or having rifts dropped in your path. Even outside of those gamemodes these players are hellbent on ruining it for others.

What I find sad is the concept of Limbo is great (and I have a soft spot for magicians) but in practice he's a poor frame used by ego-tripping players for the sole purpose of trying to out-do the rest of their squad only to be the single biggest annoyance and agitator for everyone else. Starting with his passive, make it a choice to enter the Rift. Let other players bullet jump or something to enter it. If it's too fiddly just make the Rift duration longer. Banish is fine but some Limbos do use it to attempt to hold the game hostage, so having it spawn a rift can mitigate this. 2 and 3 are the real problems, no one uses them because rely on enemies being in the void. Stasis is pointless because 4 is already an AoE slow, unless that is removed in favour of making Stasis viable. Rift Surge is just "damage anything that's banished". I get it but it's not great. And then there's Cataclysm. The only decent ability but see above. Personally I'd just make it a void field that gives the extra energy per second plus some ability strength or equivalent and remove the penality of it being shot through.

At this point is there any point in continuing to read a wall of text?

13 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

TL;DR: Limbo sucks and people who play him are generally awful to be around. Here's a suggested rework to fix some of Limbo's toxic elements:

•  

I find limbo players know what they are doing more than other players.

 

14 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

• Passive: Change Rifts so other players have to bullet jump through to enter the Rift Plane. Increase Rift durration to compensate.
•  

I would like to have it personally not tied to a movement ability. But you have to tie it to something so yeah. can't really compromise there without changing too much. That is the main thing that is holding me back from playing Limbo.

 

Other suggestions, eh I am exactly a heavy limbo user so others might have a better idea of how to interpret the suggestions. 

 

[gamingchair1121]

6 minutes ago, Mazifet said:

Additionally enemy projectiles aren't suspended any more, that was changed a long time ago

nope, still does

even eximus bullets are frozen

[sunderthefirmament]

31 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

There is no slow in Limbo's kit. It is called stasis for a reason which isn't even his fourth ability.

It amounts to a slow when combined with Stasis, at the edge of the Cataclysm at least.  Enemies walk in, freeze, then unfreeze as the Cataclysm shrinks past them.  That's honestly my biggest complaint about Limbo.  The shrinking Cataclysm means you're playing a game of chance when attacking the enemies at the edge.

 

56 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

Limbo sucks and people who play him are generally awful to be around.

I agree that he sucks and that I'd rather never see him in a match again (until he is deservedly reworked), but I'm not going to paint his fans/players with quite that broad a brush.  I get the appeal of Limbo.  He has cool aesthetics.  He seems complicated- like he might have a really high skill ceiling that pays off in some awesomely rewarding way.  Sink enough hours into this game, though, and you realize that his immortality can be more readily achieved by methods far less disruptive to your teammates.  And you'll also realize that the CC or utility he provides can also be acquired elsewhere, or no longer really even matters in the game as it currently stands.

 

He needs a rework, not just due to his steadily growing irrelevance, but also due to the inherent griefing in his kit.  No other frame has the potential to be quite as disruptive to your teammates as Limbo.  Any frame that approaches his griefing potential can be built in ways that mitigate it.  Limbo can't.  If you're using his kit, if you're using all of his abilities, you are making the game more frustrating and complicated for your team.  Narrow Minded helps.  It's an absolute godsend for Limbo.  But it's not enough.

 

I'd also like to call attention to how sentients interact with the rift.  They gain immunity to Limbo's CC.  Sure.  This was introduced in Scarlet Spear.  But I've noticed that sometimes sentients in the rift can't even be damaged while you're in the rift too.  Step outside of the Cataclysm, and they're still unaffected by your attacks.  I haven't tested it extensively as A) I don't want to grief my team and B) he's mercifully rare in Archon Hunts.  But something weird is going on with sentients and the rift.

[BroDutt]

Allowing team mate to exit the rift with dash/roll is a good idea. Although Cataclysm would disable this.

I'm no coder but this sound difficult to implement, unless DE change how Cataclysm work. And yes, unable to pickup/interact with object inside the rift is suck!

I've only use Limbo for Solo Spy or lower level Defense

 

[gamingchair1121]

10 minutes ago, BroDutt said:

Allowing team mate to exit the rift with dash/roll is a good idea

you can already do that

[BroDutt]

30 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

you can already do that

Even in Cataclysm Rift? Just asking, thanks for the information tho.

[SpicyDinosaur]

6 minutes ago, BroDutt said:

Even in Cataclysm Rift? Just asking, thanks for the information tho.

No, if you are in a cataclysm you can't roll to get out of it.

[gamingchair1121]

14 minutes ago, BroDutt said:

Even in Cataclysm Rift? Just asking, thanks for the information tho.

it does just for a second but then forces you back in

[A-Flying-Brick]

The wall of text is the full explaination of my opinion. Having it all written out saves me having to come back multiple times to elaborate on my points. I have tried my best to use Limbo but aside from dragon keys and a few mastery tests, I've found better frames for just about every other role. I may not have as many hours with Limbo as some people here but I've tried to like him.

16 hours ago, Pakaku said:

Problem with immature players, not with Limbo himself, and chances are I'll never see them again in future matches

Normally I'd agree but it seems they are drawn to Limbo like a moth to a flame. I try my best to be open minded when I play but it's to the point that almost every Limbo just makes me want to leave group. Had two in a row on this week's Arcon Hunt. First one would Banish me everytime I'd try to defend the objective, they tried to play it off as an accident but kept doing it. I left afterwards and got a new squad only for another Limbo to be there. This one was running max range and duration, making it quite difficult to protect the excavator. Another player spoke up, causing the Limbo to stop but not actually help and started casting banish on that player repeatedly. Then blaming them for the excavators being destroyed until that player died. 

16 hours ago, Mazifet said:

imo the only change to his passive is to remove the little portal. It has no reason to exist and causes a ton of annoyance to both you and your squadmates.

wdym by mirco rifts?

Cataclysm has no slow effect, thats stasis. Additionally enemy projectiles aren't suspended any more, that was changed a long time ago. Limbo already has passive energy regen along with the 10 energy per kill, so the energy bonus is useless. collapsing cataclysm already does damage, just a negligable amount. Also confused on what you would be toggling.

That's why I suggested allowing players to bullet jump if they wanted to enter the Rift Plane. I like the idea of Rifts, they aren't great in practice. "Mirco-Rifts" are either smallar Rifts of just lower duration Rifts, something that would add some synergy between his other abilities or a way for others to head to the Rift Plane after banished units.

15 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It amounts to a slow when combined with Stasis, at the edge of the Cataclysm at least.  Enemies walk in, freeze, then unfreeze as the Cataclysm shrinks past them.  That's honestly my biggest complaint about Limbo.  The shrinking Cataclysm means you're playing a game of chance when attacking the enemies at the edge.

This. It's just Gloom with extra steps and no health restore. Plus the shrinking Cataclysm makes aiming through it a nightmare. The "energy restore" is already part the Rift Plane, I was just spelling it out. Plus the extra energy is more for other players than Limbo, it makes him have some support utility and a reason for using the ability. The idea is ot make it simular to Mend & Maim with the zone staying up until it is cast again, detonating it for some damage.

16 hours ago, Mazifet said:

Huh? Stasis doesnt have range at all, it affects all enemies in the rift. And it can be casted on both sides

I should of made this clearer, give it a small range and effect to those outside the Rift. If anything this would be a buff and give Limbo some crowd controll and cc outside of Rifts and encourage teamwork.

I suggested a reasonable rework that would bring Limbo in line with many other frames and remove the griefing element inherit to his kit because it's all fine and dandy to point out what I don't like but it won't fix the problem. It won't progress the discussion beyond "ha ha yes Limbo bad" and his mains rolling in to try and defend him. I'm not saying these changes have to be made to the letter, I'm just saying there needs to be a change. The first step is a conversation, so DE can hear us and can come up with something that satisfies all of us.

 

[Famecans]

On 2023-02-13 at 7:08 PM, Pakaku said:

On 2023-02-13 at 6:55 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

"Hey Limbo, that ability is stopping me from using x/interfears with x, can you use it elsewhere/use it less?"

Problem with immature players, not with Limbo himself...

 

[irony]

이봐 림보, 그 능력이 내가 x를 사용하는 것을 막고 있어/x를 방해하고 있어 ...

Эй, Лимбо, эта способность мешает мне использовать x/мешает x ...

مرحبًا Limbo ، هذه القدرة تمنعني من استخدام x / تتداخل مع x ...

Oye Limbo, esa habilidad me impide usar x/interfiere con x ...

[*irony]

[gamingchair1121]

5 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I suggested a reasonable rework that would bring Limbo in line with many other frames and remove the griefing element

5 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

That's why I suggested allowing players to bullet jump if they wanted to enter the Rift Plane

so which one are you going with?

[A-Flying-Brick]

58 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

so which one are you going with?

I'm not sure if it was clear enough, the suggestion is that other players can use Rifts by bullet jumping into them. The griefing element is Limbos placing Rifts in the way of other players to force them into the Rift Plane against their will. The way Limbo creates and uses them is fine. The Rift is such a disconnect that it's a huge problem to get banished mid cast because Limbo wasn't paying attention or being malicious.

 

[gamingchair1121]

2 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I'm not sure if it was clear enough, the suggestion is that other players can use Rifts by bullet jumping into them. The griefing element is Limbos placing Rifts in the way of other players to force them into the Rift Plane against their will. The way Limbo creates and uses them is fine. The Rift is such a disconnect that it's a huge problem to get banished mid cast because Limbo wasn't paying attention or being malicious.

 

and how does this solve his portals being annoying?

[A-Flying-Brick]

3 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

and how does this solve his portals being annoying?

By making it a Bullet Jump to enter an open "portal"(Rift) you make it more difficult to accidently enter a misplaced Rift.

It won't completely solve the problem but it will certainly help when the Rift is placed in a chokepoint such as a doorway.

[gamingchair1121]

12 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

By making it a Bullet Jump to enter an open "portal"(Rift) you make it more difficult to accidently enter a misplaced Rift.

It won't completely solve the problem but it will certainly help when the Rift is placed in a chokepoint such as a doorway.

why not press x to enter? you rarely if ever use that button. bullet jumping is almost every frame's main source of movement so its not really going to solve anything because you'll still go in the portals anyway

[A-Flying-Brick]

5 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

why not press x to enter? you rarely if ever use that button. bullet jumping is almost every frame's main source of movement so its not really going to solve anything because you'll still go in the portals anyway

X on the keyboard yes, but not on controller. If it is X on a standard windows controller, you'll have priority issues and you'll get griefers placing Rifts on or near interactables.

It's why I suggested bullet jumping as it's a quick enough action to propel a player through a Rift efficiently but can be aimed around them if needed. 

[gamingchair1121]

10 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

X on the keyboard yes, but not on controller. If it is X on a standard windows controller, you'll have priority issues and you'll get griefers placing Rifts on or near interactables.

well yeah but idk the button for controller im on pc

17 minutes ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

It's why I suggested bullet jumping as it's a quick enough action to propel a player through a Rift efficiently but can be aimed around them if needed. 

exactly my point, if you have to dodge them they'll be annoying

if its hold to enter and not press that solves the priority issues and you can literally just ignore them and not worry about it

[A-Flying-Brick]

20 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

exactly my point, if you have to dodge them they'll be annoying

if its hold to enter and not press that solves the priority issues and you can literally just ignore them and not worry about it

Less annoying then they are now. Ultimately they're a good idea. A no cost way to give other players use of your passive. The problem is that it's used to grief and that's why there needs to be a way to agree to enter it.

Holding any button will be an issue for controller users as every button on a standard controller is in use. X in that senario would be that button since that's the default bind "Context Actions". Imagine going down and a Limbo places a Rift on you. With "Enter Rift" as a "Context Action", it will cause issues as it will keep trying to interact with the Rift rather than the player on the ground. And you bet griefers will practice to learn the exact pixel where the Rift needs to be for maximum harassment.

[Scroll_of_Wisdom]

My solution: Change nothing to Limbo's kit. It's such a nice kit that if used well everything makes sense. 

Instead make a toggle in the game settings for other players' abilities affecting you. If thats too radical make it a list like the press/hold toggles and have all the frames and each being abled to be toggled on and off. 

That's it. Never again grief

[(PSN)Ragology]

All they have to do is make it so that we can interact with consoles and mobile defense keys while in the rift.

[sunderthefirmament]

5 hours ago, Scroll_of_Wisdom said:

My solution: Change nothing to Limbo's kit. It's such a nice kit that if used well everything makes sense. 

Instead make a toggle in the game settings for other players' abilities affecting you. If thats too radical make it a list like the press/hold toggles and have all the frames and each being abled to be toggled on and off. 

That's it. Never again grief

This wouldn’t be enough for Limbo. It’s not typically his effects on the other players’ frames that matter. It’s his effect on enemies. The way he divides the map into zones of finger-wagging “no, no, no, your weapons can’t work there” is in desperate need of changing. 
 

Also, this is the first time I’ve encountered someone defending Limbo’s 3rd ability by claiming “everything makes sense.”  It’s the most needlessly convoluted ability in the game, stacked on top of the most needlessly convoluted kit. 
 

Limbo needs a complete rework, even more dramatic than Wukong’s (that gave him the clone) or Ember’s (that removed and replaced half of her kit). And in this rework, the rift as it currently exists needs to go.