Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst.

[A-Flying-Brick]

Coming back to this after a week has shown me a couple of things. There are still only two very vocal people defending Limbo with the same old arguments.

Just because YOU like the frame and have very rose tinted glasses and/or massive cases of sunk-cost fallacy, doesn't mean you get to force that on everone else. Limbo's use rate is about on par with most other frames, it may go up when resurgance is on but as a whole you see about as many Limbos as any other "non-meta" frame. There's many fluxuations that affect use rate, including new modes coming up and reworks and augment mods being released. Pointing dirrectly to use rate is a complete red herrring and has NOTHING to do with what this thread is about.

Another misdirrection is saying Snow Globe is worse. Yes it is a problem too and needs to be changed, but so does Cataclysm. I would rather being stuck in a lobby with 3 max range Frosts all wielding white energy Brammas than a Limbo. "Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst." I wrote those words and stand by them. Limbo on his own is more disruptive than any other frame and he is often used by toxic players for the express purpose of being toxic. Not just because of Cataclysm but also Banish. If you like Limbo as much as you claim to, you need to actually add something to the conversation rather than trying to misdirrect or derail the conversation. You should condemn people whe taint the reputation of your beloved Limbo rather than brushing it off by saying "not all Limbo players" or "these frames are disruptive too", it's like a broken record.

It is a fact Limbo is very disruptive. It is a fact people don't like playing with him in their squad. It is a fact that Limbo can render many builds useless. Stop trying to pretend these facts do not exist because they do. I'm glad that I've been too unwell to play this week, because multiple people have told me that pretty much every squad they've had has contained a toxic Limbo. If that is what's happening then there is something seriously wrong with that frame. 

[gamingchair1121]

15 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Tldr limbo compium to the max. "Just let limbo kill the enemies". 

it seems you didn't finish reading, here, let me help you with that:

23 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

unlike khora, where you can barely even kill those enemies, if they don't, just go in the cataclysm and kill them.

 

10 hours ago, L3512 said:

Unlike other frames, less Limbo players is a net positive.

afk wukong with kuva zarr

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

31 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

it seems you didn't finish reading, here, let me help you with that:

 

afk wukong with kuva zarr

I did read it and it was filled with a bunch of opinions of how you think limbo should be played which doesn't help the problems with him.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, gamingchair1121 said:

 

 

[EinheriarJudith]

17 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I did read it and it was filled with a bunch of opinions of how you think limbo should be played which doesn't help the problems with him.

exactly. you will always see this with people who speak in defense of limbo. 

out of the 52 warframes, limbo is the ONLY frame who everyone needs to have knowledge about just to play with him even if you arent playing that frame. this alone is a reason to rework him. 

next reason? people literally judging others based on how he is played when they do not do this with any other frame.

next reason? people in the squad being negative toward anyone who decides to use him regardless of if they are good or bad

next reasons? shuts peoples guns off, prevents people from interacting with objects, forces people to roll/back flip, forces people into operator, literally able to protect enemies.

next reason? patch notes pertaining to him where DE had to cut his features back simply because of his Disruptive nature.

nothing more needs to be said other than "DE, do something about this frame please".

[FBalfour]

The fact that 99% of the comments in defense of Limbo as is are fallacious arguments, bragging about their intellect, or "But I like him and I play solo so I don't really have any idea what people are talking about because they're discussing how the average Limbo behaves in a public lobby and it doesn't really affect me but I'm taking personal offense to it and reiterating the 'And the players who use him' part and making people dislike Limbo players even more!" is not lost on me

[FBalfour]

Quick note here:

If they decide to rework Harrow, or Oberon, or Sevagoth, or Citrine, or anyone I play, I won't be upset or offended. I understand that there is a delicate ecosystem in co-operative multiplayer games, especially one like this, where one frame not working well in a group can cause distress for everyone.

I repeat: If they were to rework my personal favorite frame, I would be in support, as it is generally to better everyone's experience with that frame, either to play as or alongside of. Since the Wukong Rework I have run into a lot of great, kind, and thoughtful Wukongs. Prior to the rework, I dreaded being in the same lobby because I build for endurance runs and start slow and it wasn't uncommon to encounter AFKongs in the least

[Joezone619]

Its almost like limbo players and limbo haters alike have been asking for a rework for years now for variously specific reasons... where it at pablo?

[gamingchair1121]

17 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

Its almost like limbo players and limbo haters alike have been asking for a rework for years now for variously specific reasons... where it at pablo?

yeah, its like DE just doesn't care about how disruptive limbo can be and only thinks about money they get from new frames

[A-Flying-Brick]

3 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

Its almost like limbo players and limbo haters alike have been asking for a rework for years now for variously specific reasons... where it at pablo?

Its almost like Limbo "fans" derail every critical conversation about him. If I had to guess because his use rate doesn't stand out, like Wukong's did, putting his rework pretty low on the priority list. Hopefully this thread will reach the right ears. I still invite both Limbo fans to actually add something to the convesation, because otherwise the devs will only hear the negatives.

Before you start blathering about him being the best for defence/excavation, he is awful for both those modes unless you're solo or a premade team that heavily caters to Limbo and Limbo only. Even with a low range build/high duration is at best on par with Frost, who I agree needs attention too. I am still of the opinion that there is no mode where he is superior or at least on par to any other frame, unless it's hauling dragon keys or a couple of mastery tests.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Coming back to this after a week has shown me a couple of things. There are still only two very vocal people defending Limbo with the same old arguments.

No, there are many players talking about Limbo and their experiences in game, that can be different, but all deserve respect. And an argument value is not evaluated by the time it's been used : and old argument can be much stronger than any new one, everything will depend on the premises the argument is based upon.

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Just because YOU like the frame and have very rose tinted glasses and/or massive cases of sunk-cost fallacy, doesn't mean you get to force that on everone else.

Well, this is only a complain, not an argument. And could you show the sunk-cost fallacy ? I can't see any, neither from me, nor from the other players that have a different opinion than me. Perhaps, you just don't know what is dialetics and opinion debate.

This is just rhetoric and it could be used against you, look : just because YOU don't like Limbo and have those dark-hate tinted glasses and/or massive cases of sunk-cost fallacy, doesn't mean you get to force that on everyone else.

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Another misdirrection is saying Snow Globe is worse

No, it's not. Player experience can be different and many players have this very bad experience with Frost Snow Globe. If that's not your personal experience, please, respect them and try to understand, just the same way you want to be understoob by others that don't hame the same in game experience than you.

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

"Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst." I wrote those words and stand by them.

Yes, and that part about Limbo players is very disrespectful. I hope you can see that.

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Not just because of Cataclysm but also Banish. If you like Limbo as much as you claim to, you need to actually add something to the conversation rather than trying to misdirrect or derail the conversation. You should condemn people whe taint the reputation of your beloved Limbo rather than brushing it off by saying "not all Limbo players" or "these frames are disruptive too", it's like a broken record.

It's not an old record : comparing Limbo to other frames and showing that the same bd experience can take place while using many other frames shows perfectly good enough that Limbo is not a specific problem, but one of the problems of lack of synergy in the game and very different from what you've said on the OP.

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

It is a fact Limbo is very disruptive

Nobody prooved this, and surely not you. Unless you're a kind of deity imposing dogmas.

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Stop trying to pretend these facts do not exist because they do

They don't. What we have is different player experience. Yours wasn't good, everybody can understand, but the fact you're trying to impose only exist on your mind.

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Pointing dirrectly to use rate is a complete red herrring and has NOTHING to do with what this thread is about.

Yes, it does, because another player talked about it. And I pointed exactly what you've said. Thanks.

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

I'm glad that I've been too unwell to play this week

I'm sorry you wans't in a good state, but I think, if what you've said is your real position, that you should just stop playing. This is not a normal thing to say.

Il y a 12 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

because multiple people have told me that pretty much every squad they've had has contained a toxic Limbo

I've been playing for years and I never met not even one disruptive Limbo.

[A-Flying-Brick]

36 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

No, there are many players talking about Limbo and their experiences in game, that can be different, but all deserve respect. And an argument value is not evaluated by the time it's been used : and old argument can be much stronger than any new one, everything will depend on the premises the argument is based upon.

Well, this is only a complain, not an argument. And could you show the sunk-cost fallacy ? I can't see any, neither from me, nor from the other players that have a different opinion than me. Perhaps, you just don't know what is dialetics and opinion debate.

This is just rhetoric and it could be used against you, look : just because YOU don't like Limbo and have those dark-hate tinted glasses and/or massive cases of sunk-cost fallacy, doesn't mean you get to force that on everyone else.

I've adressed that side of the discussion. Please stop with all the logical fallacies, it's like you're going down a list. Do you get a free coffee after rattling them all off? You and the other clear Limbo fan in this thread have clearly devoted a lot of time to Limbo and I believe that has clouded your opinions and is causing you all to ignore the negative sides of Limbo's kit. I would not be surprised if you're both trolling at this point in time.

Also I like Limbo, as I've said. I like his design and the idea of him, he's let down by this kit and further ruined by people using him to be unbelievably toxic in an otherwise great community. I am not forcing that on anyone and multiple people have come to this thread, of their own accord, to share their own experiances with Limbo. These accounts share the same basic facts, Limbo is disruptive, Limbo players are often incredibly toxic and most importantly: they would like to see his abilities changed to make them less dissruptive.

52 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

No, it's not. Player experience can be different and many players have this very bad experience with Frost Snow Globe. If that's not your personal experience, please, respect them and try to understand, just the same way you want to be understoob by others that don't hame the same in game experience than you.

Yes, and that part about Limbo players is very disrespectful. I hope you can see that.

It's not an old record : comparing Limbo to other frames and showing that the same bd experience can take place while using many other frames shows perfectly good enough that Limbo is not a specific problem, but one of the problems of lack of synergy in the game and very different from what you've said on the OP.

Again with the Snow Globe argument. It's a misdirection that I have adressed multiple times. Drop it. It is not disrespectful. I stand by my words and you are just proving them correct every time you use another logical fallacy or you yourself be disrepectful towards me and the other people who have been discussing Limbo.

13 hours ago, A-Flying-Brick said:

I'm glad that I've been too unwell to play this week, because multiple people have told me that pretty much every squad they've had has contained a toxic Limbo. If that is what's happening then there is something seriously wrong with that frame. 

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm sorry you wans't in a good state, but I think, if what you've said is your real position, that you should just stop playing. This is not a normal thing to say.

Disrepect like this, I've included the full quote for context. I won't go into detail about my condition but I decided to not to play as much as I have in the past. Your response is awful and implying there is something wrong with me and that I should stop playing the game as result. Also that being unwell and playing less than x hours a week invalidates my argument. I am really glad I haven't encounted you in game.

Deciding to not play a game due to health, mental and/or physical, is completly normal and encouraged if it will negatively affect you. I was thinking of taking a break anyway, it just so happened to line up with the flood of people using Limbo to ruin the game for others because the frame is currently available in relics.

If I see you in game, I will be leaving that squad. 

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I've been playing for years and I never met not even one disruptive Limbo.

This can be for a number of reasons, platform (pre cross-platform update), timezone, playtime, content and frame used. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I think the reason you haven't seen the behavour is because you're part of the problem. Any critism you see is disrepected and dismissed simply as blind hate. Any negative behavour is written off as just the individual player's fault and no larger issue. You use logical fallacy to divert the conversation constantly. It's beyond tiresome.

Also for all that is holy and unholy, stop mentioning other frames. This thread is about Limbo, not Frost or Volt, Wisp, Saryn, etc. There has been detailed discussion about how disruptive other frames are coming to the conclusion that the inabilitiy to shoot through certain abilities is disruptive. You keep saying "but Snow Globe", it's been covered. It has all been covered. 

I try not to bring the person into the argument, but you are making that impossible. You latched on to the minor detail that I was unwell and hadn't played as much recently and used that to try to discredit my argument. Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst.

[sunderthefirmament]

2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Nobody prooved this,

Probably because it’s obvious. When a Limbo is on the team and making use of any portion of his kit, my ability to kill enemies efficiently is disrupted. Some Limbo users minimize this by using Narrow Minded, but the fact remains that I have to take the rift into account in my actions, which disrupts my experience. My kill count with weapons will decrease. Fewer enemies will die, resulting in less loot. I may have to reposition myself frequently to avoid the rift or work around it.  I have to play around a Limbo that’s using his kit.
 

It’s disruptive. Other frames have ways of disrupting me too, I’ll admit. Like I really don’t love when Nekros uses his 4, as suddenly there are bullet blocking enemy clones everywhere that often look identical to enemies because of a shader/VFX just deciding not to take effect.  Slowvas can turn defense into a crawl.  And anyone with a bright energy color explosive weapon can ruin my eyesight.  But these examples are only small portions of a frame’s kit or specific loadout. Limbo’s entire kit is centered on disruption. 
 

The rift needs to go. 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 7 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Please stop with all the logical fallacies, it's like you're going down a list

I have a Master degree on Philosophy and Logic is one of my domains, my friend : If you are seeing a "logical fallacy" from me in this thread, I beg you : show it, please.

il y a 9 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

You and the other clear Limbo fan in this thread have clearly devoted a lot of time to Limbo and I believe that has clouded your opinions and is causing you all to ignore the negative sides of Limbo's kit. I would not be surprised if you're both trolling at this point in time.

If you read the discussions I've had with other players that don't like Limbo, you would know that I'm not ignoring their bad experience with Limbo : as I've said many times : players experiences can be very different and anybody can give, with respect, their feedback. You are the one that is lacking respect and that is refusing to see that there are many players that don't have the same experience as you and that like to play Limbo the way this warframe is intended to be played.

il y a 12 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Again with the Snow Globe argument. It's a misdirection that I have adressed multiple times. Drop it. It is not disrespectful. I stand by my words and you are just proving them correct every time you use another logical fallacy or you yourself be disrepectful towards me and the other people who have been discussing Limbo.

Again ,there is no fallacy. It's an argument that in Dialectics (a part of logic whose object is probable opinions -Doxa, in Greek) is called analogical argument "a pari" and it's very useful on a discussion to show that something is not an exception or that there is some lack of consistence on the argument of the other person.

If there is any fallacy, please, show it and also its specific classification. If you can't, please, stop saying that these very normal and logic arguments are fallacies just because you can't give a satisfactory answer to them.

il y a 16 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Disrepect like this, I've included the full quote for context. I won't go into detail about my condition but I decided to not to play as much as I have in the past. Your response is awful and implying there is something wrong with me and that I should stop playing the game as result. Also that being unwell and playing less than x hours a week invalidates my argument. I am really glad I haven't encounted you in game.

There is no disrespect at all in what I've said. Your words were exactly this :

Il y a 14 heures, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

I'm glad that I've been too unwell to play this week,

If you prefer being "unwell" than playing a game, so there is something wrong and that game is not something good for you and you'd better stop playing it. It's not normal to prefer being unwell than playing a game.

il y a 19 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

I am really glad I haven't encounted you in game.

I would have given you a really nice experience with Limbo.

il y a 21 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

If I see you in game, I will be leaving that squad. 

Charming, dear.

No arguments at all at your two last posts. Just empty rhehorics and anger. And you speak of fallacies...

il y a 23 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

but I think the reason you haven't seen the behavour is because you're part of the problem.

Charming. You don't know me, you don't want to know me. You are excluding me from your in game experience, but you are still talking about my person. Focus on Limbo and not on me.

With the other players, we were talking about Limbo and the game and then you come talking about personal things and making some "conclusions" about me. PErhaps, that's because you have no argument at all.

Please, read the posts and you'll see how we were having a friendly and nice discussion before you started saying these non-sense.

il y a 27 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Any critism you see is disrepected and dismissed simply as blind hate.

I applied to you, as an exemple, what you were applying to others. You see : you tasted your own words, and you didn't like it.

il y a 28 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Also for all that is holy and unholy, stop mentioning other frames.

No, I won't : Limbo has the same problem as many other frames and weapons and this is an important part of this discussion. If you have no answer to this, don't try to exclude it from the discussion.

il y a 30 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

You use logical fallacy to divert the conversation constantly. It's beyond tiresome.

Show any fallacy and give its logical classification, please. You'll see that there is none.

If you stop making personal statements and focus on Limbo, and keep the friendly discussion, this won't be "tiresome".

il y a 31 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

You keep saying "but Snow Globe", it's been covered. It has all been covered. 

No, it hasn't. And it's not only about Snow Globe. Cataclys and Snow Globe have similar problems and any player can use both to be disruptive. And this is for this simple reason : any player can be disruptive, frames are ok, but a disruptive player will be disruptive with anything he gets. Limbo is not the problem.

il y a 33 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

I try not to bring the person into the argument, but you are making that impossible.

But this is the only thing you do, and from the beginning : "Limbo players are the absolute worst".

Just read the discussion above with other players : there was no personal statements in our posts : you are the [olny] one doing it.

il y a 35 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

You latched on to the minor detail that I was unwell and hadn't played as much recently and used that to try to discredit my argument.

Nope, I was in fact shocked by what you've said. That part of my post had nothing to do with your argument.

il y a 36 minutes, A-Flying-Brick a dit :

Limbo and the players who use him are the absolute worst

Again : personal statement, "dogmas", disrespect to good players...

I'm really sorry for you and I'm really sorry that a nice and friendly conversation we were having turned into this.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 3 minutes, sunderthefirmament a dit :

Probably because it’s obvious.

No, it's not. We are many having a very good experience with Limbo.

I'm not against some changes to the Rift or at least more information about how to play Limbo, but this is not a reason to say that Limbo players are the absolute worst as the OP does.

il y a 5 minutes, sunderthefirmament a dit :

When a Limbo is on the team and making use of any portion of his kit, my ability to kill enemies efficiently is disrupted.

Yes, I undersand, this can happen (and not only with Limbo), but it's a part of a co-op game to adapt to the other members of the squad. No Limbo can prevent you from killing an enemy, but you will have to adapt, as with any other frame. I agree that Limbo make the other squad members to adapt to a way that is not common and that can be troubling, but this is not disruptive gameplay : Limbo is working as intended by the Devs.

il y a 8 minutes, sunderthefirmament a dit :

My kill count with weapons will decrease. Fewer enemies will die, resulting in less loot.

They will be killed anyway, by you or by others and you just need to adapt. No Cataclysm can prevent a player from killing an enemy.

il y a 9 minutes, sunderthefirmament a dit :

I may have to reposition myself frequently to avoid the rift or work around it.

Yes, this is true : the Rift prevents static gameplay and you'll have to move more than on other situations, but this is not exclusive to Limbo : it's normal on a co-op game.

il y a 11 minutes, sunderthefirmament a dit :

Like I really don’t love when Nekros uses his 4,

😁 Oh ! I totally agree ! I forgot to mention this earlier. It's sometimes a nightmare when the energy colors are not indicating clear enough who is an enemy and who is an ally.

I've experienced this many times, but I just adapted to the situation : Nekros is a very nice warframe and a very good support in a squad.

il y a 13 minutes, sunderthefirmament a dit :

Limbo’s entire kit is centered on disruption

I don't agree with this.

The Rift is mostly a protection with a very good CC and it can regen energy (a little bit, less than Zenurik,but more than Energy Siphon) and HP (with the Augment).

A squad composed by a Limbo, a Yareli, a Saryn and a Banshee is so powerful : everybody will be protectd inside the Rift and kill with abilities with no problem at all.

The problem many players are having are mostly, in my opinion, an effect of matchmaking problems : as someone else stated before : he can be disruptive to unorganized squads. Many frames have a lack of synergy and if they are together on a squad, this can be a problem. And Limbo has a lack of synergy with many frames and he has a gameplay the is not common. But, in my opinion, this is not disruptive : Limbo is working as intended, just the same way as other frames are.

Hyldrin players can't say that Mag is disruptive because she prevents Hyldrin from getting eny benefit from her 2nd ability : it's a great lack of synergy, but Mag is working as intended and a Hylfrin player in a squad with Mag will be forced to adapt.

il y a 21 minutes, sunderthefirmament a dit :

The rift needs to go. 

That's not my opinion, I think you already know it, but I understans players that think this way and, if there are a lot of players complaining (in a respectul way and with arguments, as you perfeclty did), so I think the Devs will make some rework. My personal experience with Limbo is really great and I never had any problem with another Limbo.

[sunderthefirmament]

5 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

you will have to adapt, as with any other frame.

Any other frame?  How, pray tell, do I need to adapt to an Excalibur?  Or a Gyre?  A Rhino, Nezha, Nidus, or Inaros?  An Ivara?  Even a frame that people complain about, like Wisp or Volt with their potentially unwelcome speed boosts (big disagree, I always love a speed boost), don’t really require adapting unless you can’t handle tight corners as it is or are absolutely married to staying in Razorwing with sprint toggle on. 
 

I don’t think the level of work that Limbo puts on other players is even remotely comparable to other frames. He’s in a league of disruption that is entirely removed from the other examples I’ve listed in previous posts, and in this one.  Letting a player essentially say “no, sorry, your weapons won’t work here” to other players is bad game design, and results in a toxic experience. 

[AegidiusF]

Le 08/03/2023 à 14:50, sunderthefirmament a dit :

Any other frame?  How, pray tell, do I need to adapt to an Excalibur?

If you have an Excalibur on your squad you can expect having CC by blind effect and this will prevent Augur set to work. On low level relic runs mostly), Radial Javelin can make your weapons useless by nuking entire rooms.

The same answer : CC and nuking rooms are also true for Rhino and Nezha, this last one beign able to force his own halo on you, even if you don't want it : nightmare for Chroma players.

Le 08/03/2023 à 14:50, sunderthefirmament a dit :

Or a Gyre?

The same CC, grouping abilities : you'll have to adapt to Gyre's CC and change your gameplay to support hers.

Le 08/03/2023 à 14:50, sunderthefirmament a dit :

Inaros?  

Inaros ? The warframe without abilities ?😁 Sorry, I couldn't resit, even though I use Inaros a lot and even all his abilities (Sand Storm included) and that's why if you know how to play Inaros, you know that he can AFK any Mobile Defense Mission, removing any fun from it (just as Banshee, but the way).

The real question with Inaros is that most Inaros players only use him for his HP and status immunity, not even using his abilities.

Le 08/03/2023 à 14:50, sunderthefirmament a dit :

An Ivara?

Ivara has a very static gameplay : if you have an Ivara in your squad, she is the one that is going to have to adapt to the others by not using your own abilities (except on spy missions).

Le 08/03/2023 à 14:50, sunderthefirmament a dit :

Even a frame that people complain about, like Wisp or Volt with their potentially unwelcome speed boosts (big disagree, I always love a speed boost), don’t really require adapting unless you can’t handle tight corners as it is or are absolutely married to staying in Razorwing with sprint toggle on. 

Most of the time, these frames are a problem to specific warframes like Titania, Gauss, Grendel, Chroma, Loki, or if you have a build with high speed. If used correctly and not considering the frames above mentioned, I don't think they are a problem. There is even many nice synergies between Volt and Hyldrin, as Speed will make Hyldrin move faster while using her 4th.

But there are some players (I have met only once a Volt like this) that use a very high ability strength Volt just to troll.

My point is that there are frames that have nice synergies, but other frames that have no synergy at all and that can even be a problem to you in a squad and you'll have to adapt. And Limbo has a very peculiar gameplay and, I confess, it needs that the others in the squad adapt to his own way.

Le 08/03/2023 à 14:50, sunderthefirmament a dit :

I don’t think the level of work that Limbo puts on other players is even remotely comparable to other frames. He’s in a league of disruption that is entirely removed from the other examples I’ve listed in previous posts, and in this one.  Letting a player essentially say “no, sorry, your weapons won’t work here” to other players is bad game design, and results in a toxic experience. 

This, I can agree : Limbo asks for a much higher level of adaptation from other players in the squad. I agree with you, but I don't think it's disruptive : I think it's a nice variation. Many players are complaining about the new frames being only "more of the same", Limbo is perfectly a warframe that is not "more of the same" : he is unique, but complex.

Any weapon will work, but players will have to move. I don't call it toxic, but a different gameplay.

It's nice to vary and Limbo is there to bring some variation in terms of gameplay.

[L3512]

On 3/8/2023 at 12:08 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

More Limbo, more fun.

Maybe, if we could rad proc ourselves with Secondary Encumber and nuke them.

 

On 3/8/2023 at 12:08 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Prime demand on market and use rate are very different things. And you need to compare to the offer to understand the relative low sell price.

Just to give an exemple : Limbo price is following Saryn Price median about 80 under Resurgence and 120 out of Resurgence. [PS : you can still find players selling a Limbo Prime set for 300 or 400 PL].

This is completely off base, Saryn Prime is already selling for 140P three months after a resurgence while Limbo barely reached 120P after two years of being vaulted, Saryn Prime is also selling 2.5-3x the quantities as Limbo on a good day (for Limbo). 

While demand and usage are certainly different, there was little demand for Limbo Prime and that is why there is relative low selling price as you say.

People are also free to ask any ridiculous price for stuff they are selling, do you have any proof of people buying Limo P for 300-400P? Or just optimistic price gougers?

 

On 3/8/2023 at 12:08 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Ember, in a general way, has always been popular. Of course, after the rework, she went down a lot, but even today she is still popular. And her rework only bothers veterans that have tryed her before, new players don't mind about it (the same thing will happen to Wukong). But if you prefer a much popular warframe, Mesa has a use rate evolution similar to Limbo, decreasing over and over (still very popular though).

Mesa has a few niche uses that both Helminth and SP intruded on, it's understandable why people play Mesa less. Ember P was part of the fire and ice unvault meme and so was always pretty available, Ember use was decimated with the rework and playing with one is pretty rare.

 

On 3/8/2023 at 7:55 AM, gamingchair1121 said:

afk wukong with kuva zarr

Is this some sort of Limbo player cope?

As the only mission this was an issue was survival and an AFK spectre frame has no agency (you know the AFK part?), you could just move a tile over and solve the issue. Even at a bare minimum the AFK Wukong would kill mobs, while a Limbo player going AFK would be an actual improvement in a mission. 

[AegidiusF]

il y a une heure, L3512 a dit :

Maybe, if we could rad proc ourselves with Secondary Encumber and nuke them.

🤣😂🤣 You just killed me ! I wasn't expecting this answer. At least, I love your sense of humor (I'm being serious).
This makes me think about some players trolling on Void fissures by getting a Rad proc on Death Orbs lasers just to kill the other players with Volt 4th or Saryn 4th.

il y a une heure, L3512 a dit :

 Saryn Prime is already selling for 140P three months after a resurgence while Limbo barely reached 120P after two years of being vaulted, Saryn Prime is also selling 2.5-3x the quantities as Limbo on a good day (for Limbo). 

I agree, but Resurgence (at least at its current format) will put almost every warframe at the same average and median values at some point. Many players want some specific frame just for MR level. At least, this is what I'm expectating based on how it has been working to other warframes.

il y a une heure, L3512 a dit :

People are also free to ask any ridiculous price for stuff they are selling, do you have any proof of people buying Limo P for 300-400P? Or just optimistic price gougers?

That's why I was talking about Median value, not Average value when I compared Limbo to Saryn : Some very few players can ask a very high price, this won't change the median value : they will only be an outlier point in the chart.

I don't know if people are buying a Limbo for 300-400, but there are some active and well rated players that are selling Limbo for this amount of plat.

The same way, I have no proof of players buying a Saryn Prime set for 120 pl (I sold mine for much less than this, but I'm not a reference at all, because, when I used to sell things, I always sold for the lowest price).

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

On 2023-03-08 at 5:30 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I have a Master degree on Philosophy and Logic is one of my domains, my friend : If you are seeing a "logical fallacy" from me in this thread, I beg you : show it, please.

Watch out, the man got an arts degree! Once again all of your points are opinions and how you feel. Congrats.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 17 heures, (PSN)Joylesstuna a dit :

Watch out, the man got an arts degree! Once again all of your points are opinions and how you feel. Congrats.

Yes, I totally agree with you. All my points and any other point from everyone in this thread are only opinions based on each ones' exeprience in game : I've been saying this very often in this thread. That's why I also said that every player experience and feedback must be respected : those who don't like Limbo and those who like him.

But as the OP said many times that everything I said was only logic fallacies and started to talk about my person, I had to put things in a very clear way to make him stop with his personal statements.

[sunderthefirmament]

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

That's why I also said that every player experience and feedback must be respected : those who don't like Limbo and those who like him.

The problem here is that liking and using Limbo in his current state can have a negative effect on other players that far outstrips the griefing potential of other frames. 
 

I’m a big fan of Ivara. Using her in missions with public matchmaking on isn’t going to have an adverse effect on other players.  The same cannot be said for Limbo.  As much as I’d rather not mess with anyone’s main, I feel that changes to Limbo are necessary for the health of the game, even if that means he loses the rift mechanic that you and gamingchair seem to love. 

[AegidiusF]

il y a une heure, sunderthefirmament a dit :

As much as I’d rather not mess with anyone’s main, I feel that changes to Limbo are necessary for the health of the game, even if that means he loses the rift mechanic that you and gamingchair seem to love. 

Limbo is not my main 😆 (I don't really have a main warframe, but my most used warframe is Trinity).

I can uderstand your point and I'm really grateful to you for keeping a high level discussion and bringing feedback based on your experience and also for understanding your own experience.

Even though I don't think Limbo is more disruptive than many other frames, I agree that if there is a great number of players complaining, the best is to change the way the Rift works.

As I said before, what I love the most with Limbo is that he is unique and offers a new kind of gameplay (and that's perhaps where the problem come from).

il y a une heure, sunderthefirmament a dit :

I’m a big fan of Ivara. Using her in missions with public matchmaking on isn’t going to have an adverse effect on other players.

I love Ivara so much (and I use her much more than Limbo), but with the exception of Spy missions, when I see an Ivara on my sqaud, the first thing I think is that the player won't be a great help : he will rely on others for the mission objective and won't bring any benefit to the squad. I know (and I use it a lot, but only when I play solo) that Ivara can buff critical damage, but it's bounded to a very static gameplay and will help only on some specific missions, like Defense.

Once, for an Arbitration, I was in a squad with an Ivara and this player wanted me to stay together in the same room camping on Ivara's zipline. When I said that I didn't really like this kind of gameplay and that I wasn't going to camp in a room, he was "a bit angry" (euphemism).

And some players use Ivara only to troll shooting the invisibility arrow at you all the time, even if you don't want to be invisible.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

On 3/7/2023 at 5:53 PM, EinheriarJudith said:

out of the 52 warframes, limbo is the ONLY frame who everyone needs to have knowledge about just to play with him even if you arent playing that frame. this alone is a reason to rework him. 

On 2/23/2023 at 7:15 PM, A-Flying-Brick said:

Players are always going to be disruptive and toxic, the best thing to do is not give them the tools to ruin the game for others. Limbo is that tool. He is a tool that in the wrong hands makes you unable to play.

Quoted for emphasis. Limbo has the most potential of any frame to be used in a way that is harmful, both intentionally and unintentionally. It's a good thing for some characters to be complex, as the process of learning and mastering a complex character can be rewarding, but the detriments that come from poor use of that character should be limited to the player using that character, not everyone around them.

For Limbo, I think a complete rework of the rift plane is needed, sadly. For certain buffing warframes, players need better tools to permanently opt out of buffs they don't want. For specific modes, these modes need tweaking to not punish playstyles that are otherwise rewarded in other modes (moving around in Survival, using crowd control in Defense).

Generalizing people is bad. Limbo is a disruptive tool, some people who play Limbo do things you don't like, but generalizing to all Limbo players is just an insult to those who don't try to disrupt other players.

Lastly, as this is a Limbo discussion, I must include this meme:

Spoiler

*clears throat cracks knuckles*

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Limbo. The playstyle is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics and quantum mechanics most of the synergies will go over a typical player's head. There's also Limbo's Dapper look, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his concept draws heavily from Stephen Hawkings String theory, for instance. The mains understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these synergies, to realize that they're not just Useful- they say something deep about THE GAME. As a consequence people who dislike Limbo truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the Science behind his iconic ability "cataclysm," which itself is a great representation of what a worm hole used to create a small pocket through the 4th dimension would look like. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as DE's genius unfolds itself on their screens. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way, I DO have a limbo tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

 

[L3512]

On 3/9/2023 at 9:21 PM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

🤣😂🤣 You just killed me ! I wasn't expecting this answer. At least, I love your sense of humor (I'm being serious).
This makes me think about some players trolling on Void fissures by getting a Rad proc on Death Orbs lasers just to kill the other players with Volt 4th or Saryn 4th.

Well I don't actually hate Limbo, people should play what they like though sometimes limbo players need a little trolling.

 

On 3/9/2023 at 9:21 PM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

That's why I was talking about Median value, not Average value when I compared Limbo to Saryn : Some very few players can ask a very high price, this won't change the median value : they will only be an outlier point in the chart.

I don't know if people are buying a Limbo for 300-400, but there are some active and well rated players that are selling Limbo for this amount of plat.

The same way, I have no proof of players buying a Saryn Prime set for 120 pl (I sold mine for much less than this, but I'm not a reference at all, because, when I used to sell things, I always sold for the lowest price).

So first up with the well rated players, if you are referring to Warframe.market, people can/could simply buy positive feedback and there is of course no option to leave negative feedback. A player's reputation on Warframe.market means very little and is not something you should consider why buying.

As for the Saryn proof, WF.market keeps data for the last three months of sales that include median price and volume of sales so it's pretty to see Saryn vs Limbo demand. The one caveat is that people can manipulate prices or fake data as it's basically a trust system but things look generally as you'd expect with both Limbo and Saryn.