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Apparently Pablo wants to rework Saryn but is afraid to, I'll do it for him:

Traumtulpe

By Traumtulpe,
in General Discussion

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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Saryn can do 2 things:

  1. Kill weak enemies in a very convenient and effective manner. Probably too effective.
  2. Kill tough enemies with weapons (but not abilities).

There is no issue with 2, if you point a weapon at something you can kill it, Saryn or not. Toxic Lash and Corrosive procs merely give you more weapon options. So how do we nerf 1 while keeping Saryn's identity? Simple, we reduce the frequency with which Saryn can wipe the map:

  • Spores deal no damage, but accumulate "Sarycin" over time (repurposed Spore damage counter). They retain 50% Corrosive status chance.
  • Miasma also deals no damage by default, but converts accumulated Sarycin into "health loss" (similar to Reave). 200% Viral status chance (after the damage is dealt).

By choosing the right value for Sarycin generation, we will be able to determine the frequency with which Saryn can clear the map. To keep it simple, we will handle Sarycin in percentage - the maximum capacity is 100% and results in guaranteed oneshots (note that there is no issue with Reave oneshotting important targets, so it won't be a concern here either).

For flavour reasons, we want Sarycin to accumulate faster with more Spore-infected targets (with diminishing returns so it isn't a major factor for balance - the difference between 10 and 20 targets should be negligible), and for balance reasons, we want Sarycin gain to scale with ability duration. Due to Narrow Minded reducing the important stat of ability range we should balance Sarycin gain around the 200% ability duration mark.

So, how frequent do we want Saryn to wipe the map? I'd say every 20-30 seconds is fine. This would mean before mods, Sarycin reaches 100% every 60-40 seconds, depending on enemy density.

Now, as an added benefit (and sort of failsafe in case the ability synergy is broken via the helminth), Sarycin "wasted" (gain when already at 100%, in other words forgoing/delaying the map clear) should increase the timer on buffs from Saryns abilities (Toxic Lash, Venom Dose, and the speed boost from Molt).

This creates a streamlined Saryn - no more passive damage and ability spam, but big results on Miasma casts, the frequency of which you are able to precisely balance. It also would not be overpowered, abilities with effective cooldowns never are in Warframe (see Lavos). The "weapon buffing" playstyle is unaffected apart from minor changes (potentially less recasting of buffs, and higher Viral status chance on Miasma).

It also creates more interesting tradeoffs in modding, as both range and duration will be important for AoE damage, and strength for buffs / status effects.

Bonus Ash rework for free!

Shuriken: Is now a small cone (like Banish), enemies hit cannot move for 7 seconds, also status effects do not expire during this time.

Smoke Screen: Can now be recast while already active.

Teleport: 10 meter instant teleportation (like Worm Hole), costs 5 energy. Enemies withing 7 meters of the destination are vulnerable to finishers.

Blade Storm: Can be recast while clones are still attacking.

That is all. And no, this does not belong into feedback since DE isn't interested in rework suggestions - I'm just curious what you, other players, would think of my ideas.

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nslay

nslay

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Absolutely no map-wiping that ignores range and line-of-sight.

Hypothetical bugginess should not contribute to this design ideal. It's better to satisify range and line-of-sight contraints while being buggy and annoying players. This has been the design philosophy for all other frames.

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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So you're not allowed to wipe the map every half minute, even excluding eximus units, despite this being a mere fraction of the total enemies in a steel path survival? But being literally completely 100% invincible forever (your picture is Revenant Prime) is fine? Dare I say you do not understand balance?

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quxier

quxier

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2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

So, how frequent do we want Saryn to wipe the map? I'd say every 20-30 seconds is fine. This would mean before mods, Sarycin reaches 100% every 60-40 seconds, depending on enemy density.

What about high density missions like ESO (not sure if saryn works with that mode)? There are mission that players are forced to have fast kills. Without changing requirements of such nodes you will end up with just worse frame. Not everyone likes having worse stuffs without compensations.

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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Just now, quxier said:

What about high density missions like ESO (not sure if saryn works with that mode)? There are mission that players are forced to have fast kills. Without changing requirements of such nodes you will end up with just worse frame. Not everyone likes having worse stuffs without compensations.

You are correct there, my suggestion would require Saryn's 4 to AoE - meaning a 30 seconds cooldown in ESO (or Simaris locks the ability).

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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2 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Turn Miasma into an actual expanding wave of toxic cloud. The closer to Saryn the enemies are, the more potent and dense the toxin, so players are incentivized to Molt for move speed and jump into a group of enemies.

You have melee weapons for that. I don't believe making Miasma redundant is ideal.

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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Apparently Saryn is "still super powerful".

Quote

[DE]Pablo: Saryn. We’ve had to rework her like 17 times, she’s still super powerful after 17 times. I’m too scared to try an 18th time.

Which is funny, because her abilities do literally nothing at all at level cap. Zero, zilch. Nothing at all.

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nslay

nslay

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48 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

So you're not allowed to wipe the map every half minute, even excluding eximus units, despite this being a mere fraction of the total enemies in a steel path survival? But being literally completely 100% invincible forever (your picture is Revenant Prime) is fine? Dare I say you do not understand balance?

Your frequency and Eximus conditions do not matter. No map-wiping that violates range or line-of-sight. Saryn should not get any kind of free pass on this... and it does not matter if it's buggy. DE is fine with Khora whipclaw glitchiness after reigning in on line-of-sight for her. Line-of-sight and range are limitations on lots of other nuke frames. Saryn should not be the exception here.

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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5 minutes ago, nslay said:

Your frequency and Eximus conditions do not matter. No map-wiping that violates range or line-of-sight. Saryn should not get any kind of free pass on this... and it does not matter if it's buggy. DE is fine with Khora whipclaw glitchiness after reigning in on line-of-sight for her. Line-of-sight and range are limitations on lots of other nuke frames. Saryn should not be the exception here.

What happens if you wipe the map every 30 seconds in a steel path survival: Everything immediately respawns, you have improved kills per second. Everything still works as intended, enemies are still a threat, allies still have plenty to kill.

What happens if you are permanently invincible: The game is broken, you can win by pressing the melee button, while watching netflix on your second monitor.

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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1 minute ago, nslay said:

By the way... funny you mention my Revenant Prime picture because even Danse Macabre is subject to line-of-sight and does not extend forever.

Danse Macabre is the ability you remove via helminth. Did you somehow conveniently not read that you are permanently 100% invincible against everything including energy drain eximus units?

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nslay

nslay

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2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

What happens if you wipe the map every 30 seconds in a steel path survival: Everything immediately respawns, you have improved kills per second. Everything still works as intended, enemies are still a threat, allies still have plenty to kill.

What happens if you are permanently invincible: The game is broken, you can win by pressing the meele button, while watching netflix on your second monitor.

Given the line-of-sight and range limitations of other nuke frames, and the fact that Pablo wanted to change her for being "too popular" in ESO is everything you need to guess of what is "intended".

Why is Saryn popular in ESO?... because she can nuke the entire map regardless of where enemies are... regardless of range and whether you can see enemies.

DE historically does not like that.

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Danse Macabre is the ability you remove via helminth. Did you somehow conveniently not read that you are permanently 100% invincible against everything including energy drain eximus units?

Danse Macabre is Revenant's nuke ability... which is subject to line-of-sight and does not extend forever. Like basically all other nuke abilities.

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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3 minutes ago, nslay said:

[...]

So are you going to acknowledge the fact that the character you play as is perfectly invincible with no counter whatsoever, or will you just keep repeating that you can't nuke quite as good (though still very good at low levels!) as another character who dies in one hit?

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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5 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mineslayer2010 said:

actually, nullifiers exist. Besides that rev is 100% fine with DE. They even buffed him in Veilbreaker. Saryn kills so a bit too well. Although I never really understood her or even played with her a lot. 

You can shoot a nullifier, that removes the bubble. Since you'll be shooting enemies anyway, there is no reason why you should ever touch one of those bubbles. Attacking in melee works too. By the way, a nullifier also nullifies Saryn's damage.

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nslay

nslay

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3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mineslayer2010 said:

actually, nullifiers exist. Besides that rev is 100% fine with DE. They even buffed him in Veilbreaker. Saryn kills so a bit too well. Although I never really understood her or even played with her a lot. 

Now that I have built my shield gating Furious Javelin vanilla Excalibur, I'm not as impressed by Mesmer Skin... where Excalibur requires you to press a button when shields hit 0, Mesmer Skin provides a little more convenience. Ah but this Excalibur wouldn't fare well with Toxin oof.

@Traumtulpe will happily pick on Revenant's invincibility while stomping level cap Mot with his Saryn Prime and one-shotting Glaive Prime 🤣

 

 

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Traumtulpe

Traumtulpe

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Just now, nslay said:

will happily pick on Revenant's invincibility while stomping level cap Mot with his Saryn Prime and one-shotting Glaive Prime

None of Saryn's abilities contributed anything at all to that. As you mentioned, I killed enemies with Glaive Prime, not Spores, not Toxic Lash, not Molt, and not Miasma (in fact I removed Miasma).

Enemies with Toxin damage will kill you in one hit when you are shield gating, energy drain will also kill you.

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nslay

nslay

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Just now, Traumtulpe said:

None of Saryn's abilities contributed anything at all to that. As you mentioned, I killed enemies with Glaive Prime, not Spores, not Toxic Lash, not Molt, and not Miasma (in fact I removed Miasma).

Enemies with Toxin damage will kill you in one hit when you are shield gating, energy drain will also kill you.

Good thing most people don't play level cap infested missions.

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(XBOX)Mineslayer2010

(XBOX)Mineslayer2010

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7 minutes ago, nslay said:

Now that I have built my shield gating Furious Javelin vanilla Excalibur, I'm not as impressed by Mesmer Skin... where Excalibur requires you to press a button when shields hit 0, Mesmer Skin provides a little more convenience. Ah but this Excalibur wouldn't fare well with Toxin oof.

@Traumtulpe will happily pick on Revenant's invincibility while stomping level cap Mot with his Saryn Prime and one-shotting Glaive Prime 🤣

 

 

You build him for shield gating and efficiently? (for his 4 and 2 spam) 

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nslay

nslay

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Just now, (XBOX)Mineslayer2010 said:

You build him for shield gating and efficiently? (for his 4 and 2 spam) 

No efficiency (positive or negative). I have a weird build.

I don't use his 4 because it's underpowered compared to normal melees like Glaives. I Helminth a status immunity ability over his 4.

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