Apparently Pablo wants to rework Saryn but is afraid to, I'll do it for him:

[(XBOX)Mineslayer2010]

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

No efficiency (positive or negative). I have a weird build.

I don't use his 4 because it's underpowered compared to normal melees like Glaives. I Helminth a status immunity ability over his 4.

weird lol his main play is his 4 and 2 legit almost the only thing going for him. I feel like playing rev too much makes you hate every other frame because they are no where near tanky. But his my best frame currently building nekros prime and he's prob gonna overtake him. I need a volt and volt prime. Building mag prime and rhino prime currently, I opened 10 relics of each in the shop (40 aya total). Went for one mag prime set and got 7 rhino prime sets 6 to sell.  I'm looking forward to all the affinity farming and playing these frames. Can't wait for ember prime because she brings the glaive prime back and I need it. 

[nslay]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mineslayer2010 said:

weird lol his main play is his 4 and 2 legit almost the only thing going for him. I feel like playing rev too much makes you hate every other frame because they are no where near tanky. But his my best frame currently building nekros prime and he's prob gonna overtake him. I need a volt and volt prime. Building mag prime and rhino prime currently, I opened 10 relics of each in the shop (40 aya total). Went for one mag prime set and got 7 rhino prime sets 6 to sell.  I'm looking forward to all the affinity farming and playing these frames. Can't wait for ember prime because she brings the glaive prime back and I need it. 

Well, I use Furious Javelin augment and do 50 million damage to enemies with Glaives. Exalted Blade is garbage until DE rethinks melee exalted weapons.

Furious Javelin is silly in SP due to enemy density and the fact that it is MULTIPLICATIVE 🙃

[(XBOX)Mineslayer2010]

3 minutes ago, nslay said:

Well, I use Furious Javelin augment and do 50 million damage to enemies with Glaives. Exalted Blade is garbage until DE rethinks melee exalted weapons.

Furious Javelin is silly in SP due to enemy density and the fact that it is MULTIPLICATIVE 🙃

oh wow I'm missing out. 

[cute_moth.npc]

Didn't Pablo actually start getting threats the last time he talked about reworking Saryn or is that just a chat rumor?

[nslay]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Mineslayer2010 said:

oh wow I'm missing out. 

I really tried to make EB work... even played with Chromatic Blade and Archon mods. The conclusion is always "well X Glaive would do that better".

[(XBOX)Mineslayer2010]

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

I really tried to make EB work... even played with Chromatic Blade and Archon mods. The conclusion is always "well X Glaive would do that better".

average melee meta lol. Khora's eb is pretty good since it's stats are based off a stat stick. 

[Genitive]

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Didn't Pablo actually start getting threats the last time he talked about reworking Saryn or is that just a chat rumor?

I wouldn't be surprised if he did receive threats. People do it all the time for no reason.

After the ammo rework someone on the steam forums made bomb threats, so there's that.

[Traumtulpe]

36 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mineslayer2010 said:

oh wow I'm missing out.

Enemies have like 3 million HP at level 9k (steel path), so unless you value overkill...

[Tiltskillet]

51 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Didn't Pablo actually start getting threats the last time he talked about reworking Saryn or is that just a chat rumor?

I don't know about threats--although it wouldn't shock me, there are a lot of stupid people out there who haven't yet had their licenses to use the internet revoked--but he definitely received vigorous pushback, lol.  Later he said he was just making off-the-cuff comments and not talking about actual plans.

I think the twitch stream and the juicy threads here have been deleted, but you can find some of it on reddit:

 

[Traumtulpe]

30 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I think the twitch stream and the juicy threads here have been deleted, but you can find some of it on reddit:

All I read there was perfectly reasonable: Apparently Pablo said Saryn is overrepresented in ESO and thus needs a nerf - and people rightly point out that you have to nuke ESO, and you are not allowed to spam your 4, and that these conditions plain and simply disable the vast majority of Warframes (not Saryn since she nukes passively with her 1).

In other words, people told him to fix the part thats broken instead of breaking the thing that works (and what he chose to do was... nothing at all).

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Pablo has, if anything, kind of given up on Saryn, he said in the reddit AMA he'd made dozens of tweakes without doing hard nerfs but the result was the same; she still kills stuff quick.

fine by me, and anyway, it's not like Saryn doesn't have downsides; Regen molt is mandatory unless you deliberately go for a shield gating setup, or are willing to be a glass cannon. setting spores up still requires a little precision and can be screwed up totally if other people get their DPS in first and kill everything before you do: can't put spores on corpses after all. for this reason, if I want to do some "spore-ing" usually I only take Saryn into Steel path, never regular starmap stuff, because she's better at doing it on tougher enemies.

Pablo should focus on the likes of Hydroid and Inaros instead.

[taiiat]

you 'nerf' by making Spores function the way the previous revision did.
funny how the older design did exactly what the theme was supposed to do and did it better.

just adjust the previous revision of Spores to be more localized rather than spamming Numbers across all Enemies on the Map.

since almost nobody remembers anything, the previous revision of Spores Status debuffed affected Enemies plus hits from Toxic Lash would create localized high Damage explosions.
just adjust this behavior to not cover the entire Map at once (but more of like say, "infection cells" - medium sized pockets of infections), and also fix the Bugs that the Spore bursting interaction with Toxic Lash, and also make the Mechanics more easily understood by newbies.

 

hello, it is i, resident professional Saryn

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

you 'nerf' by making Spores function the way the previous revision did

Lol, that's not a nerf. Enemies taking double damage is >>> Corrosive procs, spreading Toxin procs from weapons is >>> slowly ramping damage with a lousy 100k cap.

[(PSN)xFelipeRage]

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Saryn can do 2 things:

1. Kill weak enemies in a very convenient and effective manner. Probably too effective.
2. Kill tough enemies with weapons (but not abilities).

There is no issue with 2, if you point a weapon at something you can kill it, Saryn or not. Toxic Lash and Corrosive procs merely give you more weapon options. So how do we nerf 1 while keeping Saryn's identity? Simple, we reduce the frequency with which Saryn can wipe the map:

• Spores deal no damage, but accumulate "Sarycin" over time (repurposed Spore damage counter). They retain 50% Corrosive status chance.
• Miasma also deals no damage by default, but converts accumulated Sarycin into "health loss" (similar to Reave). 200% Viral status chance (after the damage is dealt).

By choosing the right value for Sarycin generation, we will be able to determine the frequency with which Saryn can clear the map. To keep it simple, we will handle Sarycin in percentage - the maximum capacity is 100% and results in guaranteed oneshots (note that there is no issue with Reave oneshotting important targets, so it won't be a concern here either).

For flavour reasons, we want Sarycin to accumulate faster with more Spore-infected targets (with diminishing returns so it isn't a major factor for balance - the difference between 10 and 20 targets should be negligible), and for balance reasons, we want Sarycin gain to scale with ability duration. Due to Narrow Minded reducing the important stat of ability range we should balance Sarycin gain around the 200% ability duration mark.

So, how frequent do we want Saryn to wipe the map? I'd say every 20-30 seconds is fine. This would mean before mods, Sarycin reaches 100% every 60-40 seconds, depending on enemy density.

Now, as an added benefit (and sort of failsafe in case the ability synergy is broken via the helminth), Sarycin "wasted" (gain when already at 100%, in other words forgoing/delaying the map clear) should increase the timer on buffs from Saryns abilities (Toxic Lash, Venom Dose, and the speed boost from Molt).

This creates a streamlined Saryn - no more passive damage and ability spam, but big results on Miasma casts, the frequency of which you are able to precisely balance. It also would not be overpowered, abilities with effective cooldowns never are in Warframe (see Lavos). The "weapon buffing" playstyle is unaffected apart from minor changes (potentially less recasting of buffs, and higher Viral status chance on Miasma).

It also creates more interesting tradeoffs in modding, as both range and duration will be important for AoE damage, and strength for buffs / status effects.

Bonus Ash rework for free!

Shuriken: Is now a small cone (like Banish), enemies hit cannot move for 7 seconds, also status effects do not expire during this time.

Smoke Screen: Can now be recast while already active.

Teleport: 10 meter instant teleportation (like Worm Hole), costs 5 energy. Enemies withing 7 meters of the destination are vulnerable to finishers.

Blade Storm: Can be recast while clones are still attacking.

That is all. And no, this does not belong into feedback since DE isn't interested in rework suggestions - I'm just curious what you, other players, would think of my ideas.

 Apparently you're WRONG, he said that she had 17 reworks and he wouldn't want to do an 18 time, wrong interpretation.

[Traumtulpe]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)xFelipeRage said:

 Apparently you're WRONG, he said that she had 17 reworks and he wouldn't want to do an 18 time, wrong interpretation.

Nice formatting you've got going on there. Which part of "she’s still super powerful after 17 times. I’m too scared to try an 18th time" didn't you understand?

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Apparently Saryn is "still super powerful".

Which is funny, because her abilities do literally nothing at all at level cap. Zero, zilch. Nothing at all.

What I find funny is his answer being Saryn instead of Mirage. They've literally had to nerf all 4 of Mirage's abilities to an extent, and she's still very effective, especially when a major part of the current game issues stem from how Eclipse works.

[(PSN)rexis12]

Honestly, just let her be strong.

There are other issues with Frames and gamemodes that cause other people to not want to play the rest of the cast.

"Ohhh Saryn is too strong"

Meanwhile Hydroid exists in a perpetual state of, somehow worse than Inaros.

[taiiat]

57 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Lol, that's not a nerf. Enemies taking double damage is >>> Corrosive procs, spreading Toxin procs from weapons is >>> slowly ramping damage with a lousy 100k cap.

i don't care what Status Effects Spores distributes at this point
pick whatever you like. even no Status distribution would be fine, that's the least useful part about the Ability anyways.

all i care about is the mechanics of the Spores. 

[nslay]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

All I read there was perfectly reasonable: Apparently Pablo said Saryn is overrepresented in ESO and thus needs a nerf - and people rightly point out that you have to nuke ESO, and you are not allowed to spam your 4, and that these conditions plain and simply disable the vast majority of Warframes (not Saryn since she nukes passively with her 1).

In other words, people told him to fix the part thats broken instead of breaking the thing that works (and what he chose to do was... nothing at all).

Welp, potential threats to Pablo aside, what happened is that DE eventually introduced AOE weapons that enable any Warframe to solo clear 8 rounds of ESO now. So probably Pablo doesn't care anymore.

I haven't tried it since the ammo nerf, but I could even solo 8 rounds of ESO with Chroma and Proboscis Cernos... Chroma of all frames! I think I did this with Glaives too!

So anyway, there are a lot more options than just Saryn, Volt or Khora now.

[Kaggelos]

3 hours ago, nslay said:

I really tried to make EB work... even played with Chromatic Blade and Archon mods. The conclusion is always "well X Glaive would do that better".

Funny you mention that, i just entirely replaced it with Pull.

My regular melee tears enemies as is, used his 2 and 3 augments, and i group up enemies together, AND no energy cost from EB.

Most fun i've had with Excal in ages ^^

_{But then again, I'm the same guy that removed Wisp's motes only cause i dont like them mechanically xD}

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, nslay said:

Your frequency and Eximus conditions do not matter. No map-wiping that violates range or line-of-sight. Saryn should not get any kind of free pass on this... and it does not matter if it's buggy. DE is fine with Khora whipclaw glitchiness after reigning in on line-of-sight for her. Line-of-sight and range are limitations on lots of other nuke frames. Saryn should not be the exception here.

Over the last six years, DE has been slowly learning why explosions in other video games are blocked by walls

I would be surprised by this, but this is the same company that made melee attacks also go through walls, so...

[LordOfThePovos]

guys guys you are forgetting the easy way we can fix saryn being overused. simply just make more warframes that do cc more viable. instead of reworking saryn for the most millionth time to be weaker why dont we buff banshee's sound quake or caliban or even yareil ? instead of causing uproar by changing something for the worse we could change something for the better

[sunderthefirmament]

6 hours ago, nslay said:

DE is fine with Khora whipclaw glitchiness after reigning in on line-of-sight for her.

Khora is dead to me since the line-of-sight nerf.  Yeah, her Whipclaw did need some reigning in.  But I would have preferred a different fix.  It feels terrible to use now.  Every Whipclaw cast is a roll of the dice.  Is it going to hit the enemy I'm pointing at, or is it going to miss for no reason that I can discern as a player?  It's all well and good to have ideals about balance and game design, but this is Warframe.  It's a shambles.  It's not polished.  It's not stable.  It's not consistent.  And a ton of stuff just doesn't work.

 

Right now, Saryn works.  She's very effective at clearing massive groups of enemies up through sortie level.  Beyond that. she takes some time to get going, but can still be quite useful.  Further beyond that, she's a weapons buffer.  She's not in need of breaking.

 

Asking for a line-of-sight nerf to Saryn while knowing that DE can't actually deliver on that with any degree of reliability is asking for Saryn's role as a nuker to be removed.  I don't think it would dumpster her, as she would still have her weapons buffing niche.  But I don't think it's a good idea at all.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

I wasn't aware people even have a problem with her. I don't see her causing any issues nor does she have any abilities I would consider requires balancing changes towards a nerf. She's a great frame with multiple options and ways to build her. That's a good thing imo.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Over the last six years, DE has been slowly learning why explosions in other video games are blocked by walls

I would be surprised by this, but this is the same company that made melee attacks also go through walls, so...

That suggestion makes too much sense therefore they will re implement self damage.