Why doesnt Sevagoth have any augments?

[BIGF0O7]

As of april, hes now over 2 years old and yet he still has no augments. Why is that? Im not asking this in any kind of snarky way but genuinely, is there a reason a two year old frame has no augments (also no cosmetics as an aside)? Like has DE ever mentioned anything about this situation?

Edited May 25, 2023 by (NSW)BIGFO0T
Clarity

[Traumtulpe]

Because Sevagoth is the warframe you chuck into the Helminth to get Gloom, and Gloom is already so good that it doesn't need an augment.

I'm serious by the way.

[Mazifet]

Because DE doesn't care about him and about 2 people actually play him.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 38 minutos, (NSW)BIGFO0T dijo:

Like has DE ever mentioned anything about this situation?

They have stated that frames that do not have augments normally take priority when topic comes to the table, but perhaps so does whether the frame has "problems" or not.
Gyre, best example possible, got an augment that made it so one of her abilities was usable, being a band-aid fix for the initial nerf she received due to "unintended" mechanics.
Yareli walks a similar path to that one of Gyre. Revenant, was the polar opposite, Gara a bit in-between.

But do you know who came after Gloo- sorry, Sevagoth (and Yareli) and also has no augments? Among- I mean, Caliban.

And no one cares about Caliban.

[BIGF0O7]

55 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Because Sevagoth is the warframe you chuck into the Helminth to get Gloom, and Gloom is already so good that it doesn't need an augment.

I'm serious by the way.

Serious or not its not a serious position and certainly not a serious reason for DE not to give him augments

[BIGF0O7]

18 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

They have stated that frames that do not have augments normally take priority when topic comes to the table, but perhaps so does whether the frame has "problems" or not.
Gyre, best example possible, got an augment that made it so one of her abilities was usable, being a band-aid fix for the initial nerf she received due to "unintended" mechanics.
Yareli walks a similar path to that one of Gyre. Revenant, was the polar opposite, Gara a bit in-between.

But do you know who came after Gloo- sorry, Sevagoth (and Yareli) and also has no augments? Among- I mean, Caliban.

And no one cares about Caliban.

Sure but im not sure im following how this explains sevagoths situation. Care to expand?

[Numerounius]

(Sarcasm) He is perfect and you can't improve on perfection.

 

Anyways, I am guessing it is because of their augments revisited that they are doing which takes away time from making regular augments.

There was also new war and duviri which probably stifled dev time away from this stuff.

I doubt that he is going to be having zero augments entering a prime release.  So it is most likely a matter of time which they probably forgot about rather than coming up with an excuse like saying gloom is the most used helminth ability therefore we can't give it an augment.

[Cerenax]

Idea for an augment for him: An augment for his 4th ability that let's you summon the Shadow to fight by your side similarly to Wukong's clone and casting all if it's abilities etc.

[chaotea]

Hes still relitivly new. Im not sure that any of the frames since him have had augments.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 18 minutos, (NSW)BIGFO0T dijo:

Sure but im not sure im following how this explains sevagoths situation. Care to expand?

Sevagoth is a good Warframe with a strong kit, with flaws that collide with each other.
One of those flaws is his passive not being an "AoE" like a Plasmor shot, but creating an augment to fix that would be worse than changing it, so they don't.
The synergy between Sow and Reap can deal outstanding damage, but armours and shields make it fall flat. Creating an augment for this, once more, is worse than changing it in any way, so they don't.
Gloom is what keeps Sevagoth popular, but it's hard to create something that can really upgrade it further so that it works for the frame and simply not better on everyone else.

Due to the Helminth system existing, DE can delay the creation of augments (and reworks) for Warframes almost indefinitely, as it provides what I imagine is in their minds, "An alternate way of using the Warframe", which is what augments were meant to.

And to be fair, it is also difficult to come up with augments for Sevagoth that aren't just making his Shadow a companion, which many of us seem to share the thought, and his abilities are meant to work in combination with each other to get the best of him, more than quite some other frames, hence why it's even more difficult to make an augment that isn't just upgrading one.

hace 1 minuto, chaotea dijo:

Hes still relitivly new. Im not sure that any of the frames since him have had augments.

Gyre and Yareli are newer, both have augments. Yareli 2, Gyre 1.

[quxier]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Yareli walks a similar path to that one of Gyre.

Yareli were in very bad state. Suuure, you can slap Roar and go with Aquablades... but you can do it on Rhino as well.

Pick any Yareli's ability and you will see many issues they have changed and there are still some issues.

 

Gyre? Except 2nd, people were mostly talking about armor stripping & 4th damage (speed, raw damage etc).

 

IMHO, it make sense that they changed yareli a lot.

1 hour ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

 

I guess one reason is that he has 2 forms that need to somehow works with each other.

29 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

The synergy between Sow and Reap can deal outstanding damage, but armours and shields make it fall flat. Creating an augment for this, once more, is worse than changing it in any way, so they don't.

As fair I remember 1+2 were fine if you armored group enemies (e.g. Khora/Ensnare).

I wonder if they could make normal more CC (we have Gloom already) and augment for armor strip OR grouping to kill enemies faster. We have Gruping tool but it's on another form.

33 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

And to be fair, it is also difficult to come up with augments for Sevagoth that aren't (...) his abilities are meant to work in combination with each other to get the best of him, more than quite some other frames, hence why it's even more difficult to make an augment that isn't just upgrading one.

Yeah, I feel like they would have to fix many issues with him than introducing augments.

34 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Due to the Helminth system existing, DE can delay the creation of augments (and reworks) for Warframes almost indefinitely, as it provides what I imagine is in their minds, "An alternate way of using the Warframe", which is what augments were meant to.

Sadly Helminht lacks synergies or you cannot use certain abilities while using others. Like you put any stun/sleep ability on Baruuk and it's just it. It won't increase his meter. Or you can put any abilities but you cannot use them on Yareli/Merulina or Styanax/4th.

Sevagoth is even worse. You havve 1 frame form that is just "Unhelmithable".

[BIGF0O7]

1 hour ago, XHADgaming said:

(Sarcasm) He is perfect and you can't improve on perfection.

 

Anyways, I am guessing it is because of their augments revisited that they are doing which takes away time from making regular augments.

There was also new war and duviri which probably stifled dev time away from this stuff.

I doubt that he is going to be having zero augments entering a prime release.  So it is most likely a matter of time which they probably forgot about rather than coming up with an excuse like saying gloom is the most used helminth ability therefore we can't give it an augment.

Personally i dont think gloom needs an augment besides maybe like a vortex effect of pulling enemies in over time since it can lock enemies out which is problematic for stuff like survival but i wouldnt lose sleep if that augment never happened.

Still, this response seems the most sensible. Unfortunate and imo unacceptable but i get it. Thanks for the insight

[BIGF0O7]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Sevagoth is a good Warframe with a strong kit, with flaws that collide with each other.
One of those flaws is his passive not being an "AoE" like a Plasmor shot, but creating an augment to fix that would be worse than changing it, so they don't.
The synergy between Sow and Reap can deal outstanding damage, but armours and shields make it fall flat. Creating an augment for this, once more, is worse than changing it in any way, so they don't.
Gloom is what keeps Sevagoth popular, but it's hard to create something that can really upgrade it further so that it works for the frame and simply not better on everyone else.

Due to the Helminth system existing, DE can delay the creation of augments (and reworks) for Warframes almost indefinitely, as it provides what I imagine is in their minds, "An alternate way of using the Warframe", which is what augments were meant to.

And to be fair, it is also difficult to come up with augments for Sevagoth that aren't just making his Shadow a companion, which many of us seem to share the thought, and his abilities are meant to work in combination with each other to get the best of him, more than quite some other frames, hence why it's even more difficult to make an augment that isn't just upgrading one.

Gyre and Yareli are newer, both have augments. Yareli 2, Gyre 1.

Im not sure i understand why creating an augment to compensate for where his abilities fall flat is bad though or worse than just reworking the abilities? Or why reworking the abilities (save for gloom) would be bad?

[Tiltskillet]

My guess--and it is no more than that--is it's a combination of two things.  Much like Sevagoth himself, lol.

1.  They want to have Equinox style augments that affect abilities in both forms, and this is inherently more complicated than it is for a conventional frame.

2.  DE makes augments based partly on need, but also largely on inspiration.  And they simply hadn't been inspired up to the point they came up with the last augment batch.

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

Hes still relitivly new. Im not sure that any of the frames since him have had augments.

April 2021.  Yareli was released in July of the same year, and got her first augment the following February, and just got her second.  Gyre was released a year after Sevagoth and already has her first.

Anyway, hopefully Sevagoth (and Caliban) augments are coming.  Although maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up, since augments are so often a disappointment when they do arrive.   I don't know about Sevagoth, but it's going to be hard to fit one on Caliban unless it's amazeballs.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[BIGF0O7]

38 minutes ago, quxier said:

Yareli were in very bad state. Suuure, you can slap Roar and go with Aquablades... but you can do it on Rhino as well.

Pick any Yareli's ability and you will see many issues they have changed and there are still some issues.

 

Gyre? Except 2nd, people were mostly talking about armor stripping & 4th damage (speed, raw damage etc).

 

IMHO, it make sense that they changed yareli a lot.

I guess one reason is that he has 2 forms that need to somehow works with each other.

As fair I remember 1+2 were fine if you armored group enemies (e.g. Khora/Ensnare).

I wonder if they could make normal more CC (we have Gloom already) and augment for armor strip OR grouping to kill enemies faster. We have Gruping tool but it's on another form.

Yeah, I feel like they would have to fix many issues with him than introducing augments.

Sadly Helminht lacks synergies or you cannot use certain abilities while using others. Like you put any stun/sleep ability on Baruuk and it's just it. It won't increase his meter. Or you can put any abilities but you cannot use them on Yareli/Merulina or Styanax/4th.

Sevagoth is even worse. You havve 1 frame form that is just "Unhelmithable".

I think the only real augments he needs would be to convert the sow detonation damage to either strip equal portion of armor/shield (so 25%) that also allowed the strip to scale with strength but keep the damage on explosion the same (alternatively, just convert the damage to viral from blast) and for embrace to lose the lifted status/ragdoll it does on enemies but pulls all enemies in a 360 degree radius toward the shadow, leaving enemies still able to act similar to anamoly and nautilus’ thing but in close enough range to either melee with shadow or go back into sev to allow him to take them out however (personally thinking about the reave/reap combo that already works pretty well save for the grouping issue).

Ultimately though, im still not understanding why these things couldnt just be augments or why the abilities need to be reworked before they get augments? His kit is extremely synergistic and realistically pretty well designed, it just has a few flaws in the values and interactions that i think could be easier patched with augments than a straight up rework thats likely more difficult. Save for reave or silence for stealth mult for shadow, theres no good helminth synergy for him that allows his kit to shine so i think augments are probably the better path than a straight up rework, no?

[BIGF0O7]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

My guess--and it is no more than that--is it's a combination of two things.  Much like Sevagoth himself, lol.

1.  They'll want to have Equinox style augments that affect abilities in both forms, and this is inherently more complicated than it is for a conventional frame.

2.  DE makes augments based partly on need, but also largely on inspiration.  And they simply hadn't been inspired up to the point they came up with the last augment batch.

April 2021.  Yareli was released in July of the same year, and got her first augment the following February, and just got her second.  Gyre was released a year after Sevagoth and already has her first.

Anyway, hopefully Sevagoth (and Caliban) augments are coming.  Although maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up, since augments are so often a disappointment when they do arrive.   I don't know about Sevagoth, but it's going to be hard to fit one on Caliban unless it's amazeballs.

I dont think sev augments need to (or even should) benefit both frames unless through like passive universal and mechanics like gloom and how it effects shadow. Otherwise, i see no reason why sev cant have augments while shadow having a set (or even 1) of his own. Theyre two different frames, they should get their own augments

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

I dont think sev augments need to (or even should) benefit both frames unless through like passive universal and mechanics like gloom and how it effects shadow. Otherwise, i see no reason why sev cant have augments while shadow having a set (or even 1) of his own. Theyre two different frames, they should get their own augments

You're probably right  One augment affecting two abilities is at least a little inelegant, and his situation is much different than Equinox since he has two different loadouts.  They could also feel like they need to release two augments at once rather than one, which is still a complication over a normal frame.  Regardless, I imagine that just thinking about how to handle the "two frames in one" issue could have slowed down the process.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

Ultimately though, im still not understanding why these things couldnt just be augments or why the abilities need to be reworked before they get augments? His kit is extremely synergistic and realistically pretty well designed, it just has a few flaws in the values and interactions that i think could be easier patched with augments than a straight up rework thats likely more difficult.

Why it should be changed/reworked first? His kit isn't working correctly in my opinion. Here is list of issues I have with him (YMMV):

- cannot recast Sev's 1st or 2nd

- Sev 1 & 2 don't do too much on their own. They buff your damage but it requires A LOT OF strength. On other hand something like Styanax' Helminth ability removes armor/shield in the press of key. They are like passive for changing.

- Converting from Sev to shadow, and vice versa, isn't instantaneous. You cannot change with just e.g. 2 kills. You change back from Shadow to SEv by accident? Well, gather those resource.

Shadow:

- 3rd ability buff is weak as well

- healing ability won't stop at enemy - sometimes you land in random position/direction

- melee is boring (no effects like Baruuk's)

- half of them are (were?) not well visible

- it restricts you from use your own melee with better or more unique mods/arcanes

 

There is probably more but I've not played it for long time.

 

Sure, you can slap augments.... but that would make them bandaid mods. There would be (almost) necessity. Augments should be some new & different feature that you don't feel it's cut from base ability. It should change gameplay. However base gameplay should be good as well.

 

[BIGF0O7]

49 minutes ago, quxier said:

Why it should be changed/reworked first? His kit isn't working correctly in my opinion. Here is list of issues I have with him (YMMV):

- cannot recast Sev's 1st or 2nd

- Sev 1 & 2 don't do too much on their own. They buff your damage but it requires A LOT OF strength. On other hand something like Styanax' Helminth ability removes armor/shield in the press of key. They are like passive for changing.

- Converting from Sev to shadow, and vice versa, isn't instantaneous. You cannot change with just e.g. 2 kills. You change back from Shadow to SEv by accident? Well, gather those resource.

Shadow:

- 3rd ability buff is weak as well

- healing ability won't stop at enemy - sometimes you land in random position/direction

- melee is boring (no effects like Baruuk's)

- half of them are (were?) not well visible

- it restricts you from use your own melee with better or more unique mods/arcanes

 

There is probably more but I've not played it for long time.

 

Sure, you can slap augments.... but that would make them bandaid mods. There would be (almost) necessity. Augments should be some new & different feature that you don't feel it's cut from base ability. It should change gameplay. However base gameplay should be good as well.

 

As someone who has played alot of sev, theres a few points here you might be off on.

His 2 cant be recasted but his 1 can and is in fact the bread and butter of his shield gating (not that i run that build but because its spammable, his 1 is the strat with augur/respite)

his 1 and 2 do a fair amout of damage but the problem is armor and a lack of scaling the health percent on the 2 explosion. An augment could fix this easily imo

Optimal sev gameplay isnt to stay in shadow the whole time, despite what the big youtubers who never point out that their life support meter is constantly in the red would have you believe so the non instantaneous switch isnt as much of a design issue as it is a skill issue.
 

The shadow should be used as utility, not the main frontline of sevs kit. His 1 has insane range and is spammable so repeated casts in different directions can bring enemies stuck at edge of gloom can be brought in closer should your sev dps be a melee (or in my case reave replacing his 2 though i dont do this much for dps, despite the reap reave combo one shotting enemies with 4 viral procs. I know mentioning i use reave on sev probably raises some eyebrows but its not relevant here, though plz feel free to ask me why)

 His 3 applies the damage debuff in a radius instantaneously, rather than sevs 1 doing so in a radius around the flying shadow, and if built for strength is far greater than what a good sevagoth build will have on it, allowing sev to get more damage from whatever sources hes using with greater use than his own 1.

I agree that Consume is a problematic ability but one that a simple augment containing something like autotargetting and/or granting a width  to the ability like revs reave that would allow it to hit more than one enemy could easily fix.

His melee while impactful and among the top 3 strongest exalteds in the game is a bit underwhelming for the set up required to use it and indeed i wish it functioned more like baruuks but the claws are honestly fine as weapons, only thing id say is if you are gonna rely on staying in shadow (which again imo you shouldnt), its far more beneficial to spam embrace and use his forward block combo combined with his slide attack than it is to just neutral combo your ragdoll pile. Its just a basic melee weapon with an edgy appearance so you should be playing it how yoid play any melee weapon, which involves moving around. 
 

That said, im by no means trying to argue that sev is good. He isnt, but the problems youre describing are easily fixable with augments and my guess far easier than ability reworks in light of the questionable reasons you offered for his problems that are mostly skill issues. 
 

If embrace gathered at nidus speed in a 360 radius rather than the angle its at now and gave up ragdolling his shadow would be fine and sev himself would benefit from a free grouping ability hed be fine. If reap sow combo allowed for armor/shieldreduction that scaled with strength (leaving the damage of the reap sow explosion as is) on track with reap damage debuff (100% at 200 str) hed be fine. If gloom pulled enemies toward you so you dont lock out enemies for stuff where you need them closeby—survival, exterm, mirror defense etc) hed be fine. If shadow 2 had the reave style change, hed be fine.
 

These are all augments that would make sev a top tier overnight and in my admittedly uneducated opinion as im not a game dev, id imagine a vastly easier route for sev than reworking him entirely

 

 

[quxier]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

His 2 cant be recasted but his 1 can and is in fact the bread and butter of his shield gating (not that i run that build but because its spammable, his 1 is the strat with augur/respite)

his 1 and 2 do a fair amout of damage but the problem is armor and a lack of scaling the health percent on the 2 explosion. An augment could fix this easily imo

Ok, but what's the point of those abilities without armor strip (or grouping as with my example)? Of course not shield gating.

14 minutes ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

Optimal sev gameplay isnt to stay in shadow the whole time, despite what the big youtubers who never point out that their life support meter is constantly in the red would have you believe so the non instantaneous switch isnt as much of a design issue as it is a skill issue.

It's not about staying all the time. It's about being able to choice form on demand. If I cannot do it then any sort of interaction between forms is not great for me.

18 minutes ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

The shadow should be used as utility, not the main frontline of sevs kit. His 1 has insane range and is spammable so repeated casts in different directions can bring enemies stuck at edge of gloom can be brought in closer should your sev dps be a melee (or in my case reave replacing his 2 though i dont do this much for dps, despite the reap reave combo one shotting enemies with 4 viral procs. I know mentioning i use reave on sev probably raises some eyebrows but its not relevant here, though plz feel free to ask me why)

The thing is Sevagoth is basically Gloom so CC. On other hand Shadow has more versatile kit. For me it make sense to want play Shadow some more.

Otherwise I can subsume Gloom into any frame and had "better time".

23 minutes ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

 His 3 applies the damage debuff in a radius instantaneously, rather than sevs 1 doing so in a radius around the flying shadow, and if built for strength is far greater than what a good sevagoth build will have on it, allowing sev to get more damage from whatever sources hes using with greater use than his own 1.

Both have small debuff values. Without specific strength builds I've not cast those abilities to debuff enemies (Sev's abilites just to refill meter).

If I could put STyanax' ability on Shadow I would be happy.

25 minutes ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

I agree that Consume is a problematic ability but one that a simple augment containing something like autotargetting and/or granting a width  to the ability like revs reave that would allow it to hit more than one enemy could easily fix.

Consume should stick to enemy on base form - no augment required. Why have I use augment when base ability should be good?

27 minutes ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

Its just a basic melee weapon with an edgy appearance so you should be playing it how yoid play any melee weapon, which involves moving around. 

The thing is with other melees I have some unique features, movements etc. Melee isn't the greatest in this game but I would rather not use Claws. At least Embrace is good combo with it.

30 minutes ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

 

That said, im by no means trying to argue that sev is good. He isnt, but the problems youre describing are easily fixable with augments and my guess far easier than ability reworks in light of the questionable reasons you offered for his problems that are mostly skill issues. 

Sure, simple changes (no need for augments) are fine. No need to rework all abilities. However SEv 1+2 should be reworked imho. No skill or stat changes that those abilities are boring and watered down. It's almost like I'm using passive or 1 ability but with 2 keys.

34 minutes ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

If embrace gathered at nidus speed in a 360 radius rather than the angle its at now and gave up ragdolling his shadow would be fine and sev himself would benefit from a free grouping ability hed be fine.

That would need some huge duration to use between forms.

[BIGF0O7]

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Ok, but what's the point of those abilities without armor strip (or grouping as with my example)? Of course not shield gating.

I already answered in the section you quoted: an augment that grants stripping.

 

4 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not about staying all the time. It's about being able to choice form on demand. If I cannot do it then any sort of interaction between forms is not great for me.

With all due respect, and i mean that sincerely, this is a skill issue, not a design flaw. Getting 20 kills anywhere on steel path shouldnt take you more than 5 seconds and you dont lose the shadow form by switching back and forth, only if the deathwell is below 75% as 75% is the minimum threshold for shadow summon.

 

4 hours ago, quxier said:

The thing is Sevagoth is basically Gloom so CC. On other hand Shadow has more versatile kit. For me it make sense to want play Shadow some more.

Otherwise I can subsume Gloom into any frame and had "better time".

Not necessarily. Sevagoth is a caster supporter frame who’s primary function is to buff his weapons using his 1 to get kills to get shadow out to group enemies and use his 3. Gloom certainly has better synergies with many other frames, but saying sevagoth is only gloom is a gross reduction and, again with respect, shows a profound misunderstanding of how sevagoth functions, albeit with much room for improvement as per the spirit of this post requesting augments (and not debating whether sevagoth is good or not; he isnt but your problems with him are off)

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Both have small debuff values. Without specific strength builds I've not cast those abilities to debuff enemies (Sev's abilites just to refill meter).

If I could put STyanax' ability on Shadow I would be happy.

Agreed that shadow should be helminthable but if you arent using sev 1/shadow 3, i can understand why you have the understanding of sevagoth that you do. His 1/shadow 3 is the bread n butter of his kit, not gloom contrary to popular belief. Gloom is the best cc in the game but for stuff like survival, mirror defense etc where you need kills, its a huge handicap that should only be used as a clutch/panic option. His 1 and 3 dont suffer from this though at all since they offer a much more palpable damage buff to sev/shadow than youre at all giving credit for. I think the numbers could maybe be buffed to 75 at base rather than 50 but ultimately if you need more than the average 125-150 sev/150-200 on shadow, thats a problem of your weapon loadout

 

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Consume should stick to enemy on base form - no augment required. Why have I use augment when base ability should be good?

4 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

Because the base ability isn’t meant to dps but to clutch heal should you not be running gloom with shadow out (which is often good). Like itd be cool yeah but i dont think its necessary to rework it to target multiple enemies as an augment here would be more than fine.

 

4 hours ago, quxier said:

The thing is with other melees I have some unique features, movements etc. Melee isn't the greatest in this game but I would rather not use Claws. At least Embrace is good combo with it.

You do unique movements and features with his claws. With all due respect the more i read what youre saying the more its becominy clear to me you at best spent a bunch of forma on him, played him for 20 minutes and helminthed him because shadow wasnt getting the kps you wanted, which is fine as plenty of ppl did that but its frustrating to have a conversation with someone whos mostly uninformed on the subject so its impossible to have a constructive good faith discussion because both parties arent equally knowledgeable of the subject matter
 

Also youre wildin venka prime, garuda claws, valkyr claws and hell even the keratinos when built right are some of the most broken weapons in the game with garudas being the best and shadows likely second.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Sure, simple changes (no need for augments) are fine. No need to rework all abilities. However SEv 1+2 should be reworked imho. No skill or stat changes that those abilities are boring and watered down. It's almost like I'm using passive or 1 ability but with 2 keys.

Like this, this feels pedantic and prideful. We both want changes to his kit but for some reason you insist on these things being reworks—something the devs are notoriously slow about (looking at inaros)—that could have the same if not better results with augments that would allow his mod loadouts to look radically different while also not rocking the boat for players who prefer his old playstyle for whatever reason. 
 

If you want to make an argument aboit design, you cant just look at how you feel about something and base your argument around that. Warframe is a spreadsheet simulator, no more no less, so you have to look at the numbers. His kit already works fine, it just needs optional, slight number adjustments and interaction modifiers that are better suited for augments than they are reworks. 
 

Like here, heres how you play sevagoth effectively:

cast 1, kill some enemies, get shadow out, cast 3, embrace if youre running melee on sev but otherwise go back into sev, kill more enemies. 

Employing that strategy and assuming ones builds arent absolutely awful, yoire looking at about 80-100 kps same as any other frame when played even minimally proficiently. Does that mean then that plenty of frames do what sev does better? Yes, it does, but other frames being better doesnt mean that sev’s kit is bad. It isnt. It just means other frames are better and largely because of, you guessed it, augments. Inaros is just bad. Yarelli was just bad. Sevagoth isnt bad. He just needs augments.

(Cant edit to include this last point so in response to range for nidus style embrace changes) :

No it wouldnt? Larva scales off range and you want low duration no nidus anyway so you dont have to run larva burst.  Sevagoth already should be running positive duration to help with gloom energy drain but still, idk how youre reading duration in this as his embrace rag dolling his enemies is the worst part of the ability and shouldnt be present with increased embrace anyway

Edited May 26, 2023 by (NSW)BIGFO0T
Typo

[quxier]

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Ok, but what's the point of those abilities without armor strip (or grouping as with my example)? Of course not shield gating.

I already answered in the section you quoted: an augment that grants stripping.

As I said, augment shouldn't fix ability. It should be "good enough" on their own.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not about staying all the time. It's about being able to choice form on demand. If I cannot do it then any sort of interaction between forms is not great for me.

With all due respect, and i mean that sincerely, this is a skill issue, not a design flaw. Getting 20 kills anywhere on steel path shouldnt take you more than 5 seconds and you dont lose the shadow form by switching back and forth, only if the deathwell is below 75% as 75% is the minimum threshold for shadow summon.

What if you don't play SP? Or you are running slow mission? Not everyone plays the same thing.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

The thing is Sevagoth is basically Gloom so CC. On other hand Shadow has more versatile kit. For me it make sense to want play Shadow some more.

Otherwise I can subsume Gloom into any frame and had "better time".

Not necessarily. Sevagoth is a caster supporter frame who’s primary function is to buff his weapons using his 1 to get kills to get shadow out to group enemies and use his 3. Gloom certainly has better synergies with many other frames, but saying sevagoth is only gloom is a gross reduction and, again with respect, shows a profound misunderstanding of how sevagoth functions, albeit with much room for improvement as per the spirit of this post requesting augments (and not debating whether sevagoth is good or not; he isnt but your problems with him are off)

The thing is it's just better/easier to use Shadow, maybe use Shadow/3 if you like and just kill enemies with already powerful Claws. I could test it only on non-sp in Simulacrum but even without too much mods (or not at al, I don't remember) claws were killing Corrupted heavies at rank 100 or 155.

I had to literally go to Simulacrum and check ammo to see if 1/2 increases damage. That's how weak they are.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

His 1/shadow 3 is the bread n butter of his kit, not gloom contrary to popular belief. Gloom is the best cc in the game but for stuff like survival, mirror defense etc where you need kills, its a huge handicap that should only be used as a clutch/panic option.

Of course Gloom is not to be used for all situation. Like Slova on not hard missions or Limbo/frost bubbles in wrong places or too small/big.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

His 1 and 3 dont suffer from this though at all since they offer a much more palpable damage buff to sev/shadow than youre at all giving credit for. I think the numbers could maybe be buffed to 75 at base rather than 50 but ultimately if you need more than the average 125-150 sev/150-200 on shadow, thats a problem of your weapon loadout

If my weapons already kill (or even melt) enemies then there is no reason to use such buffs. If my weapons struggle (or are not THAT efficient) then such buffs are too weak. I think I had like 200 or 300 strength and I've seen SOME difference in killing time.

They had to change it, like you said to armor stripping or buff it to like 100 (50 now).

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Consume should stick to enemy on base form - no augment required. Why have I use augment when base ability should be good?

12 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

Because the base ability isn’t meant to dps but to clutch heal should you not be running gloom with shadow out (which is often good). Like itd be cool yeah but i dont think its necessary to rework it to target multiple enemies as an augment here would be more than fine.

It's not about dps. It's about flow of game. You should go where you are pointing. It shouldn't move past that point. It shouldn't rotate you.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

The thing is with other melees I have some unique features, movements etc. Melee isn't the greatest in this game but I would rather not use Claws. At least Embrace is good combo with it.

You do unique movements and features with his claws

What kind of unique movements/features? It's just random animation that deals damage. We have already seen it with dozen of melee types.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

(wrong quoter, it was me) The thing is with other melees I have some unique features, movements etc. Melee isn't the greatest in this game but I would rather not use Claws. At least Embrace is good combo with it.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

With all due respect the more i read what youre saying the more its becominy clear to me you at best spent a bunch of forma on him, played him for 20 minutes and helminthed him because shadow wasnt getting the kps you wanted, which is fine as plenty of ppl did that but its frustrating to have a conversation with someone whos mostly uninformed on the subject so its impossible to have a constructive good faith discussion because both parties arent equally knowledgeable of the subject matter
 

I've tried it once, not liked it, Helminthed it. Later I get it again (doing many Holo runs).

It's not about dps/kps. Shadow/Claw has good damage, afair. It's about how I use it. Except combo with Embrace, it was just "tap tap tap" kind of gameplay. In general melee has problem with kind of boring gameplay but some at least give you unique features (e.g. aerial attack, pull enemies on slide of Arbiter melee etc). This has none.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

Also youre wildin venka prime, garuda claws, valkyr claws and hell even the keratinos when built right are some of the most broken weapons in the game with garudas being the best and shadows likely second.

And I'm using, maybe not the best, Xaku, 14 guns, armor stripping of STyanax and Kuva nukor. I go around and kill enemies. Does it have good damage? Yeah, pretty good (bug some SP folks would say it needs more). Is it fun? No. Not at all. If I want to play idle game I will play one that doesn't require me to use so many buttons.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Sure, simple changes (no need for augments) are fine. No need to rework all abilities. However SEv 1+2 should be reworked imho. No skill or stat changes that those abilities are boring and watered down. It's almost like I'm using passive or 1 ability but with 2 keys.

Like this, this feels pedantic and prideful. We both want changes to his kit but for some reason you insist on these things being reworks—something the devs are notoriously slow about (looking at inaros)—that could have the same if not better results with augments that would allow his mod loadouts to look radically different while also not rocking the boat for players who prefer his old playstyle for whatever reason. 

You have basically 8 mod slots + 1 aura and 1 another one (forgot the name). So you put aura & like Primed sure footed (I like rush on most builds). Ok so 8 slots left. Now imagine having to put 4 augments. That's 4 mods left. You need some hp or something. 3 mods left. You need some efficiency (efficiency or duration based). So you have 1-2 slots left.

YEAAAAAAAH. That's not fun. That's not the point of modding. I want to use it to change my frame to my need, not to fix it.

And whenever it's augment or fix/rework it's still takes same amount of time. With augments it takes little more because you have to pick name etc.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

No it wouldnt? Larva scales off range and you want low duration no nidus anyway so you dont have to run larva burst.  Sevagoth already should be running positive duration to help with gloom energy drain but still, idk how youre reading duration in this as his embrace rag dolling his enemies is the worst part of the ability and shouldnt be present with increased embrace anyway

Duration as Embrace grouping ability stays longer so you can use Sevagoth form.

8 hours ago, (NSW)BIGFO0T said:

Like here, heres how you play sevagoth effectively:

cast 1, kill some enemies, get shadow out, cast 3, embrace if youre running melee on sev but otherwise go back into sev, kill more enemies. 

Employing that strategy and assuming ones builds arent absolutely awful, yoire looking at about 80-100 kps same as any other frame when played even minimally proficiently. Does that mean then that plenty of frames do what sev does better? Yes, it does, but other frames being better doesnt mean that sev’s kit is bad. It isnt. It just means other frames are better and largely because of, you guessed it, augments. Inaros is just bad. Yarelli was just bad. Sevagoth isnt bad. He just needs augments.

Ok, but look how you play other frames,  that aren't even the best.

Yareli:

- put Roar

- Cast Roar, Aquablades

- roll around and maybe proc viral

Styanax:

- keep your 3rd active all the time to shield/energy gain

- Group enemies with 1

- Armor strip them

- kill them (I avoid 4 but it's still possible)

- you can just spam armor stripping without grouping

Citrine

- Cast 1 and kill enemies for energy

- Cast 2nd and kill for damage reduction (synergy with 1)

- Cast 3rd and proc something (it's more stationary gameplay)

- Cast 4th if you need extra crit.

 

All of those frames has much better flow. It doesn't require any setups in most cases. You want to armor strip enemies? Just cast Citrine/4th. Armor strip? Styanax/2. Aquablades, while weak on their own, they just work. You cast and everything near you take some damage. Most of them doesn't require any augments to function somehow properly. Aquablades need a lot of Strength but it doesn't have to be Roar. It could be simple fix that increase damage. Sure, Styanax/4th, Citrine/4th and Yareli/4th (mostly, without merulina) are little flow breaking. However you can use some of their kit with some proficiency.

Sevagoth could be just 1 frame:

- Embrace

- Changed heal OR some armor strip (we have gloom)

- Gloom

- Exalted melee

- passive: use heal with maybe some changes.

But they wanted to make "2 form" frame (which is good that they have tried!).

[Numerounius]

One devstream later and no new augments announced.

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

On 2023-05-25 at 10:53 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

But do you know who came after Gloo- sorry, Sevagoth (and Yareli) and also has no augments? Among- I mean, Caliban.

And no one cares about Caliban

Weird i was just coming to ask if there was a Caliban augment somewhere and saw this topic. I have 5 formas on my Caliban as he is my original frame and I'm bummed.

[BIGF0O7]

On 2023-05-26 at 7:25 AM, quxier said:

As I said, augment shouldn't fix ability. It should be "good enough" on their own.

What if you don't play SP? Or you are running slow mission? Not everyone plays the same thing.

The thing is it's just better/easier to use Shadow, maybe use Shadow/3 if you like and just kill enemies with already powerful Claws. I could test it only on non-sp in Simulacrum but even without too much mods (or not at al, I don't remember) claws were killing Corrupted heavies at rank 100 or 155.

I had to literally go to Simulacrum and check ammo to see if 1/2 increases damage. That's how weak they are.

Of course Gloom is not to be used for all situation. Like Slova on not hard missions or Limbo/frost bubbles in wrong places or too small/big.

If my weapons already kill (or even melt) enemies then there is no reason to use such buffs. If my weapons struggle (or are not THAT efficient) then such buffs are too weak. I think I had like 200 or 300 strength and I've seen SOME difference in killing time.

They had to change it, like you said to armor stripping or buff it to like 100 (50 now).

It's not about dps. It's about flow of game. You should go where you are pointing. It shouldn't move past that point. It shouldn't rotate you.

What kind of unique movements/features? It's just random animation that deals damage. We have already seen it with dozen of melee types.

I've tried it once, not liked it, Helminthed it. Later I get it again (doing many Holo runs).

It's not about dps/kps. Shadow/Claw has good damage, afair. It's about how I use it. Except combo with Embrace, it was just "tap tap tap" kind of gameplay. In general melee has problem with kind of boring gameplay but some at least give you unique features (e.g. aerial attack, pull enemies on slide of Arbiter melee etc). This has none.

And I'm using, maybe not the best, Xaku, 14 guns, armor stripping of STyanax and Kuva nukor. I go around and kill enemies. Does it have good damage? Yeah, pretty good (bug some SP folks would say it needs more). Is it fun? No. Not at all. If I want to play idle game I will play one that doesn't require me to use so many buttons.

You have basically 8 mod slots + 1 aura and 1 another one (forgot the name). So you put aura & like Primed sure footed (I like rush on most builds). Ok so 8 slots left. Now imagine having to put 4 augments. That's 4 mods left. You need some hp or something. 3 mods left. You need some efficiency (efficiency or duration based). So you have 1-2 slots left.

YEAAAAAAAH. That's not fun. That's not the point of modding. I want to use it to change my frame to my need, not to fix it.

And whenever it's augment or fix/rework it's still takes same amount of time. With augments it takes little more because you have to pick name etc.

Duration as Embrace grouping ability stays longer so you can use Sevagoth form.

Ok, but look how you play other frames,  that aren't even the best.

Yareli:

- put Roar

- Cast Roar, Aquablades

- roll around and maybe proc viral

Styanax:

- keep your 3rd active all the time to shield/energy gain

- Group enemies with 1

- Armor strip them

- kill them (I avoid 4 but it's still possible)

- you can just spam armor stripping without grouping

Citrine

- Cast 1 and kill enemies for energy

- Cast 2nd and kill for damage reduction (synergy with 1)

- Cast 3rd and proc something (it's more stationary gameplay)

- Cast 4th if you need extra crit.

 

All of those frames has much better flow. It doesn't require any setups in most cases. You want to armor strip enemies? Just cast Citrine/4th. Armor strip? Styanax/2. Aquablades, while weak on their own, they just work. You cast and everything near you take some damage. Most of them doesn't require any augments to function somehow properly. Aquablades need a lot of Strength but it doesn't have to be Roar. It could be simple fix that increase damage. Sure, Styanax/4th, Citrine/4th and Yareli/4th (mostly, without merulina) are little flow breaking. However you can use some of their kit with some proficiency.

Sevagoth could be just 1 frame:

- Embrace

- Changed heal OR some armor strip (we have gloom)

- Gloom

- Exalted melee

- passive: use heal with maybe some changes.

But they wanted to make "2 form" frame (which is good that they have tried!).

You know what? Im done talking to you. Your opinions on the matter are ignorant and uninformed, youre not arguing in good faith and its clear you arent interested in actually learning anything. I entertained your bogus histrionics of how bad sev was or what his problems are because i assumed with new information youd see where your thoughts on him were misinformed but its clear youre just here to argue and be right no matter what, despite how measurably wrong you are on nearly all of your points. Please dont waste my time if you see me on the forums again. Thanks