!SPOILERS AHEAD! Post New War Drifter Question

[CephalonCarnage]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The bolded part isnt really true "The growing block view is an alternative to both eternalism (according to which past, present, and future all exist)...", so eternalism has a timeline, it is just that it implies that the future already exsists and that is because all choices are equally true, so there is already a future where you go left and one where you go right and they are equally real.

No, you misunderstand it. There is 1 timeline, not many. The idea that all time already exists and we just inhabit a block of it, like a video being played and our "present" existence is merely viewing each frame in turn. Everything is ordained and "pre-recorded". That's eternalism, and based on some maths IIRC that suggests this is the case, though I imagine its either wrong, a funky hypothesis, or some quantum-style wierdness where time is indeed already written, or doesn't exist as we think of it at all.  Yeah, its that level of weirdness.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt past, present and future exsisting at once, it is all possible timelines exsisting at once and running side by side

Yes, that is exactly what it is. What you describe is "multiverse" or "parallel worlds" theory. They are different things based on the universe constantly creating new ones because nobody really liked the concept of time being pre-ordained. And that was one way to avoid facing the crazy theory that is eternalism. Just wait until you read the ones that say time doesn't really exist at all!

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not with the way the trailer shows it, since it quite obviously shows another verse through the "fading" tenno seen by the Drifter

The trailer for the new war showed a Nova being shot by a grineer then Natah and a horde of sentient soldiers showing up. Ho hum. The original Duviri paradox was supposed to be about time travel - well, time dilation actually - in that a twin goes on a spaceship at very fast speeds and then returns, the twin will be much younger than the one who stayed behind. This is factual science! The Duviri world was supposed to be the Tau system IIRC, but they obviously couldn't bodge that in and have warframes on Tau so they made this dreamscape version up instead.

 

3 hours ago, Atsia said:

The Orokin fiding us and experimenting on us is very much a consequence of that deal. Us being able to empathize with frames to control them (and thus forced to become soldiers) is a consequence of that deal

Its isn't atrue consequence of the deal, in that we'd have been experimented on by the Orokin anyway to see how we survived the void. Or just gioven a gun and told now you're enlisted with the rest of the corpus, only this time with a snowflake's chance of survival. Being a warframe operator is really a good result all in all. The deal didn't explicitly make things bad for us, the situation was already bad. That's why its not a devil's deal type trope.

 

 

[Atsia]

3 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Its isn't atrue consequence of the deal, in that we'd have been experimented on by the Orokin anyway to see how we survived the void. Or just gioven a gun and told now you're enlisted with the rest of the corpus, only this time with a snowflake's chance of survival.

Well no, it's a consequence of the deal because we don't get out of the Void otherwise, see Drifter. No deal, no getting out of the void, Duvirir happens instead. And somehow a saving grace of the Orokin, they didn't use child soldiers either. Not that we would've, the Zariman families may not have been Orokin, but they'd still have to be upper standing to be considered worthy of colonizing and getting a proper education. Plus the Old War is many years after the Zariman to begin with, we wouldn't have been involved flat out without getting our powers.

[Loza03]

On 2023-06-14 at 10:05 AM, CephalonCarnage said:

Deal with the Devil trope is always about the bad consequences, never the power gained. This is simply poor writing from DE who has done much better in the past creating a more believable history with all its warts suddenly going for the "and then you were magic, which was nice".

Operator didn't "make the space" as they were back when they met Drifter. its poor writing again. they wanted to introduce a new character for the future direction of warframe, and the handshake is nothing more than a symbolic hand-over. We had 10 years of operator and warframes, now we're getting the next 10 years (perhaps) of Drifter and drifter combat daydreaming with warframes mixed in somewhere just to pretend its still called warframe.

I would like to add, just because the bad consequences haven't happened yet don't mean they don't exist!

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

No, you misunderstand it. There is 1 timeline, not many. The idea that all time already exists and we just inhabit a block of it, like a video being played and our "present" existence is merely viewing each frame in turn. Everything is ordained and "pre-recorded". That's eternalism, and based on some maths IIRC that suggests this is the case, though I imagine its either wrong, a funky hypothesis, or some quantum-style wierdness where time is indeed already written, or doesn't exist as we think of it at all.  Yeah, its that level of weirdness.

That isnt true. The idea of blocks only exsist is some theories regarding eternalism, not in all. And saying timelines is the easiest way to explain it, because all potential outcomes run alongside eachother. We can come up with another word for it if that suits you well. Lets just call it branches or paths to not confuse anything. And all of those are equally real. I dont see what it matters either regarding our personal view on eternalism, if it is funky, something worth following etc. how is it relevant? Also it isnt ordained, the choice is still yours and they all lead to a different ending.

16 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Yes, that is exactly what it is. What you describe is "multiverse" or "parallel worlds" theory. They are different things based on the universe constantly creating new ones because nobody really liked the concept of time being pre-ordained. And that was one way to avoid facing the crazy theory that is eternalism. Just wait until you read the ones that say time doesn't really exist at all!

Nope it isnt a "multiverse" or "parallel world". Those work very differently and are seperate copies of our own universe, world, dimension or whatever we wanna call it. Hence why they end up with things like 3 different individual Spider-Man that have 3 different origins, are of 3 different ages, with 3 different aunts, different ways how their powers work but still share the name Peter Parker. I'm also not sure what you mean by they are constantly created. That really depends on what type of universe it is. A parallel world of mirror verse for instance, like those from Star Trek, Marvel and DC were created all the same at the same point and gave potential for different evolution, advancements and so on. If we talk Matrix is is an alternate universe or reality that is "man" made. Ontop of that, a multiverse can exsist with or without eternalism since eternalism is simply a concept of time.

16 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

The trailer for the new war showed a Nova being shot by a grineer then Natah and a horde of sentient soldiers showing up. Ho hum. The original Duviri paradox was supposed to be about time travel - well, time dilation actually - in that a twin goes on a spaceship at very fast speeds and then returns, the twin will be much younger than the one who stayed behind. This is factual science! The Duviri world was supposed to be the Tau system IIRC, but they obviously couldn't bodge that in and have warframes on Tau so they made this dreamscape version up instead.

Not really sure what TNW has to do with anything when we discuss The Duviri Paradox? I also dont see where you get the idea from that Duviri was supposed to be about time travel or dilation. Well it is about time, or the lack of time in the void. However since Duviri is shielded/walled off from the void, time just moves slower there and isnt timeless like the void. The Drifter looks fresh for a 1000 year old fellow. Or did you miss how much time has passed by since the Zariman, Old War and The Duviri Paradox? It was also never ment to be Tau, there have been zero indications of that since the first trailer of the landscape years back, where we could see the Dax and the void all around. Not to mention that Duviri itself was also talked about in Fortuna, though at the time as an Orokin "colony" that was very fancy. Which is likely the real Duviri the book was based on in-game.

[CephalonCarnage]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt true. The idea of blocks only exsist is some theories regarding eternalism, not in all. And saying timelines is the easiest way to explain it, because all potential outcomes run alongside eachother. We can come up with another word for it if that suits you well. Lets just call it branches or paths to not confuse anything

No, you are doing exactly what you claim, calling the parallel worlds theory "eternalism", despite it not being so nor the word "eternal" having anything to do with multiverses.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I also dont see where you get the idea from that Duviri was supposed to be about time travel or dilation

Devstream 129 said it, and the Twin Paradox is the means of havbing an older version of yourself. It wouldn't have been exactly this, but they said its what inspired the concept of an older operator. In the Zariman. That never got rescued. Admittedly, it was 2019 they showed all this, including the tigirs-in-the-hole put there by younger you. So its all changed, but howq can it be about you but older and not be about time dilation or travel?

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really sure what TNW has to do with anything when we discuss The Duviri Paradox?

The NNW, the one where they introduced Drifter in the first place. The one where trhe hand gets chopped and lands in Duviri to disrupt the spirals? Nothing to do with Duviri? Are you mad?  Mind you, you can tell they're making it up as they go from this quote from Rebecca. Your theory of multiple worlds splitting off is bunk, if one influences the other and vice-versa simultaneously.

"In the chronology, technically The Duviri Paradox happened first. But it also didn't. Because then The New War couldn't have happened. So it's a very fun paradox."

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

No, you are doing exactly what you claim, calling the parallel worlds theory "eternalism", despite it not being so nor the word "eternal" having anything to do with multiverses.

But they arent seperate worlds. It is the same universe/reality for all the outcomes. As opposed to a multiverse, where each universe/world/dimension is contained within itself, which allows for different time theories to exsist for each individual one aswell. That does not remove the paths or branches in eternalism, they just all exsist equally true and real at once.

2 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Devstream 129 said it, and the Twin Paradox is the means of havbing an older version of yourself. It wouldn't have been exactly this, but they said its what inspired the concept of an older operator. In the Zariman. That never got rescued. Admittedly, it was 2019 they showed all this, including the tigirs-in-the-hole put there by younger you. So its all changed, but howq can it be about you but older and not be about time dilation or travel?

Because thousands of years have passed and the void being timeless? If it wasnt for Duviri being inside the void the Drifter would have been long dead since he Drifter is without access to a pod to halt aging, along with no void powers (to also potentially halt aging) during those years. And if Duviri wasnt protected by the wall he wouldnt have aged at all, since the void is timeless. However in that case he might have gotten curb stomped by Wally instead, or something else. And we know from Duviri that many years have passed by there aswell, far more than the 25-ish it would take Drifter to age into what he is.

2 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

The NNW, the one where they introduced Drifter in the first place. The one where trhe hand gets chopped and lands in Duviri to disrupt the spirals? Nothing to do with Duviri? Are you mad?  Mind you, you can tell they're making it up as they go from this quote from Rebecca. Your theory of multiple worlds splitting off is bunk, if one influences the other and vice-versa simultaneously.

"In the chronology, technically The Duviri Paradox happened first. But it also didn't. Because then The New War couldn't have happened. So it's a very fun paradox."

But how did that end up as part of your post when it was about the intial Duviri trailer and it not indicating any time travel at all and just some form of paradox? Also again, it isnt multiple worlds, it is the same universe/world/reality where every branch is as real as the next, all based on the potential choices of the I and everything that surrounds it that can in some way affect it. And there are an infinite combination of those for each and every individual. I'm dead and I'm alive, I'm rich and poor, I have a pet and I dont, my parents still live but they are also dead.

In WF, what could be seen as an alternate reality or universe is the game verse itself compared to ours. We also have the rift plane of Limbo, which is an alternate dimension. Then we have the void itself which can either be seen as an alternate universe or dimension. Kinda like how some ancient folklore implies that the "creature" world is ontop of ours but we just cant see it. What we really have with eternalism in WF is the theory of it that the Orokin believe in. Then Wally manages to "rip" us from how that theory works, turning the I into two seperate entities that are still the I, with one banished to the void for refusing to accept Wally's offer. However, if you take note of what happens and what is said, there is still only one single universe/reality. If the Drifter exsists in a different universe/reality/dimension it is in the void itself where Duviri is located.

 

 

[L3512]

On 2023-06-15 at 8:34 PM, -Krism- said:

You're just nitpicking on terms, I don't want to waste my time here replying to a neverending back & forth

Well you certainly contributed little to the conversation, this is however a waste of time.

 

On 2023-06-15 at 10:22 PM, SneakyErvin said:

It's very much related to the theory, since involving a "multiverse" is the only way to show it in practice. Which is what you asked, when they had shown it.

Eternalism is a theory on the nature of time, DE chose a include elements of a multiverse and label it eternalism. This was wrong, eternalism is a theory on time and is not inherently involved with any multiverse or parallel world theory, it does not however exclude such theories and they can co-exist.

To play it from another angle, what DE done with TNW was a very typical parallel world plot with a fancy name of eternalism because they misunderstood the theory. Now they do have strict rules regarding this at the moment, which is good and about the only way you can use a multiverse without setting things up for massive issues.

 

On 2023-06-15 at 10:22 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Not with the way the trailer shows it, since it quite obviously shows another verse through the "fading" tenno seen by the Drifter. It would be very odd to showcase a time travel idea that way, because no one would jump to that conclussion. And how can you argue that it isnt a paradox? A paradox doesnt mean things can exsist, or not. Both are just theories of what can happen with a paradox. In the case of WF they cannot co-exsist in "reality" as they put it, so stop it before it happens by making the decision of which "I" should continue.

Watch the trailer again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DObN_3ha6M

You can see the drifter immediately try to use a void blast so they either just arrived or somehow lost their power, as they are wondering around aimlessly and things seem new losing their power seems unlikely. It was plausible that the younger tenno was the same person so the fading tenno part was not necessarily from a different multiverse but a younger drifter that knows what's about to happen even though they haven't experienced it yet, ie a true paradox instead of your two I's that exist in different timelines and can't interact budget paradox.

 

On 2023-06-15 at 10:22 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Drifter gets to know about Hunhow in the time that spans between the Duviri quest and where we get to play him in TNW. Alot of things have happened in that time, like him having found Ordis, pieces of Lotus and so on. Also, what does the hand have to do with anything regarding when Drifter got to know of Hunhow or not? It fell into the void and ended up on Duviri at the very beginning of the war. As Nora implies, a long time has passed since the tenno disappeared, so alot of time for Drifter to get up to speed after leaving Duviri.

So long that NPCs barely mention it and the vent kids are still kids. The drifter has manage to find the orbiter, bring the Lotus to it, construct a body for Ordis and learn the history of the system and yet their first mission ends in the revelation that Narmer control people with veils and they haven't even completed veiling the population of Cetus, which is like 50 people.

I entered this thread saying that the Lore got dumpstered so this is an obvious win, when your players can't even work out the time frame of an event, that's bad writing.

 

On 2023-06-15 at 10:22 PM, SneakyErvin said:

When was past, present and future required to be linear in order to have a meaning? I'm also not sure where you get the idea from that past, present and future exsist at once in eternalism. There is no specification on the exsistance of past and present, only that the future already exsists since all possibilities are equally real. Each of them however result in a different past, present and future based on which of the choices we make and experience.

It isnt past, present and future exsisting at once, it is all possible timelines exsisting at once and running side by side, all equally real in past, present and future states. Meaning there is an infinite amount of pasts, presents and futures that we cannot experience, since we can only observe and experience one of them. That I went to the store the day before yesterday is very much a past in the timeflow, it however doesnt mean something else didnt also happen that day instead in one of the other timelines running alongside the one I experience.

And of course eternalism doesnt equal multiverse, who ever claimed it did?

I'll just have to link the same Wiki page you did before, maybe try reading it?

In the philosophy of space and time, eternalism^[1] is an approach to the ontological nature of time, which takes the view that all existence in time is equally real, as opposed to presentism or the growing block universe theory of time, in which at least the future is not the same as any other time.^[2] Some forms of eternalism give time a similar ontology to that of space, as a dimension, with different times being as real as different places, and future events are "already there" in the same sense other places are already there, and that there is no objective flow of time.^[3]

It is sometimes referred to as the "block time" or "block universe" theory due to its description of space-time as an unchanging four-dimensional "block", as opposed to the view of the world as a three-dimensional space modulated by the passage of time.

 

No where on that page does it mention "all possible timelines existing at once" and it sure doesn't give a single flying F about about the choices we make, It's a theory on the nature of time it's self , it is not a human centric idea.

[L3512]

18 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

"In the chronology, technically The Duviri Paradox happened first. But it also didn't. Because then The New War couldn't have happened. So it's a very fun paradox."

Good grief, what a bright future the lore has.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, L3512 said:

Eternalism is a theory on the nature of time, DE chose a include elements of a multiverse and label it eternalism. This was wrong, eternalism is a theory on time and is not inherently involved with any multiverse or parallel world theory, it does not however exclude such theories and they can co-exist.

To play it from another angle, what DE done with TNW was a very typical parallel world plot with a fancy name of eternalism because they misunderstood the theory. Now they do have strict rules regarding this at the moment, which is good and about the only way you can use a multiverse without setting things up for massive issues.

Yes, and the reason they chose to make use of a "multiverse" is because there is no other way that we would actually be able to see/experience eternalism. And it isnt eternalism itself that results in this, it is Wally. Eternalism in WF is still a theory, but it is one that seems important to their beliefs and philosophy, we dont know if it is actually real. And the parallel world(s) have always been there in WF. Or what do you think the Void is, or Limbo's Rift? It's also not like DE misunderstood it, because they actually brought in an outside variable in order for us to experience it.

3 hours ago, L3512 said:

Watch the trailer again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DObN_3ha6M

You can see the drifter immediately try to use a void blast so they either just arrived or somehow lost their power, as they are wondering around aimlessly and things seem new losing their power seems unlikely. It was plausible that the younger tenno was the same person so the fading tenno part was not necessarily from a different multiverse but a younger drifter that knows what's about to happen even though they haven't experienced it yet, ie a true paradox instead of your two I's that exist in different timelines and can't interact budget paradox.

It could also be an echo from the other that is represented. Just as the kid hiding the gun could be a memory from when the Drifter was actually young. And what I'm saying is simply how eternalism treats it, since it isnt seen as two actual realities, but one universe/reality where everything that can happen happens and exsists equally real across time.

3 hours ago, L3512 said:

So long that NPCs barely mention it and the vent kids are still kids. The drifter has manage to find the orbiter, bring the Lotus to it, construct a body for Ordis and learn the history of the system and yet their first mission ends in the revelation that Narmer control people with veils and they haven't even completed veiling the population of Cetus, which is like 50 people.

I entered this thread saying that the Lore got dumpstered so this is an obvious win, when your players can't even work out the time frame of an event, that's bad writing.

You're forgetting that the whole war has also happened before the Narmerfication process started, it didnt end the moment the operator go spartaned into the void well. Not saying there arent oddities and flaws (like the vent kids), just that alot has happened and that alot of time has intendedly passed which Nora also points out. So it is possible Drifter has been part of the actual war and this is the first experience with veils as he's. But none of the flaws are rooted in the introduction of eternalism, since those flaws would be there no matter what explaination there would be for the gap between war and veiling. I mean, eternalism does very little to scew the story, since it is isolated to the protagonist and nothing else really.

3 hours ago, L3512 said:

No where on that page does it mention "all possible timelines existing at once" and it sure doesn't give a single flying F about about the choices we make, It's a theory on the nature of time it's self , it is not a human centric idea.

The picture with the dog on the page shows it. It is a drawing of past, present and future. Here I'll quote the text.

Quote

Illustration of the concept of eternalism, showing a man walking his dog. Time progresses through the series of snapshots from the bottom of the page to the top. In a common sense view of time, each of those four instants would exist one after another. According to eternalism, those four instants all equally exist.

And with eternalism all potential possibilities also exsist equally for each of those moments. So past, present, future aswell as all possibilites that can occur does so at the very same time and are all equally real.

You should also note that the "block time" and "block universe" part only applies to some forms of eternalism, since eternalism itself isnt one strict unified theory. It is kinda the same as religion, where even though people believe in the same god they cant agree on what it is they believe.

[-Krism-]

4 hours ago, L3512 said:

Well you certainly contributed little to the conversation, this is however a waste of time.

ok

[CephalonCarnage]

7 hours ago, L3512 said:

It is sometimes referred to as the "block time" or "block universe" theory due to its description of space-time as an unchanging four-dimensional "block", as opposed to the view of the world as a three-dimensional space modulated by the passage of time.

 

No where on that page does it mention "all possible timelines existing at once"

What do you think "an unchanging" means? Its all there, presented to us as if we were effectiving it, but realy just replaying the pre-ordained script. Its tricky to get your head around, and it makes so little sense to us that others have proposed "get-out" theories such as infinitely splitting "timelines" as we create them with our choices. These are no real theories, but the one where the future is laid out already is.

 

Here you go, explained in terms of real physics. Pay attention at the 5 minute mark. And then watch the follow-up episode "Is The Future Predetermined By Quantum Mechanics" because the weirdness gets weirder and he talks more of Eternalism, and many-worlds theory too.

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by CephalonCarnage

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, CephalonCarnage said:

What do you think "an unchanging" means? Its all there, presented to us as if we were effectiving it, but realy just replaying the pre-ordained script. Its tricky to get your head around, and it makes so little sense to us that others have proposed "get-out" theories such as infinitely splitting "timelines" as we create them with our choices. These are no real theories, but the one where the future is laid out already is.

They are all actual theories, since the unchanging "block" theories do not apply to all theories regarding eternalism, only to some. The section you quoted for instance is in regards to the section just above it that states just that, that the "block" applies to those "some forms of Eternalism".

Some =/= all.