Can DE JUST MAKE ABANDONING LICHES AN OPTION?!

[(XBOX)Affective64]

It is mind-boggolingly how newer players like me are punished so hard for something we didn't know we were getting ourselves into.

I've never done higher-level content or liches because i never felt like it was worth my time, so, of course, i stabbed the Kuva Larvling thing because it TOLD ME TO and now i am being punished for SOMETHING THATS NOT MY FAULT. 

Having the ability to abandon liches or making liches MR20+ Exclusives or something would make the game so much better and i feel that thousands of players are also agreeing with me on this. Hell, just telling us what we're actually getting into with like a pop-up screen is also a good idea. I don't care if i'm losing what the Lich stole just let me abandon it, I don't care about it or it's weapon.

What i'm trying to say with this rant is let lower-level players (MR15 and below) opt out of Kuva Liches, when they didn't know what they were getting into.

[Skoomaseller]

it is kinda crazy, I hear so many low MR people having problems w/ their liches. "how did you get it to level 5?" then I remember everything in this game is not very well explained and requires you to constantly check the wiki for accurate facts...

liches & sisters should be MR locked at the very least.

[RafMatador22]

Look, I feel your point, but on the other hand, accessing some information is not so difficult, you could ask something in the game chat, surely someone would gladly answer all your questions. Or we have the mighty google as well.

[Cerikus]

2 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

Look, I feel your point, but on the other hand, accessing some information is not so difficult, you could ask something in the game chat, surely someone would gladly answer all your questions. Or we have the mighty google as well.

No. Categorically, no.

If the game is unable to explain itself, it needs to provide a way to fix mistakes a player makes, because they are unaware. 

Almost nothing in the game is explained. To understand many aspects of the game you need to open a wiki and that is objectively a bad game design.

Liches are NEVER explained ANYWHERE (apart from a small tutorial box that accessible after you create it, which is too late).
And wiki is NOT the game. I am usually very possitive about the game and critical only where it matters...

and here IT MATTERS.

I totally agree with OP. DE either have to offer a way to "dispell" a Lich or lock Liches behind something explicitly or teach players about Liches in advance, but this has been an issue since day one and it's horrible.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Yep, DE said there was a plan to implement hiring Red Veil to take out your lich, but that was apparently scrapped when they decided showing you the weapon you’ll get was enough.

it doesn’t address the issue of Liches being very new player unfriendly.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

That'd be kinda cool tbh, paying some Red Veil assassins or something, to slaughter the lich. I'd do it once, just for shiggles.

 

Could someone pay off Red Veil to send assassins after my tenno? I'm curious how tough these Red Veil guys are if they could take out a lich. I hope I'd get to fight a thousand dudes at once (because I can't imagine any number of Red Veil guys being able to slaughter a lich, if a Tenno is having problems)

[Pakaku]

20 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

Look, I feel your point, but on the other hand, accessing some information is not so difficult, you could ask something in the game chat, surely someone would gladly answer all your questions. Or we have the mighty google as well.

It's not exactly fair to tell someone they could have just looked it up, when there was no indication of it ever being possible before getting locked into it

[Skoomaseller]

26 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

Look, I feel your point, but on the other hand, accessing some information is not so difficult, you could ask something in the game chat, surely someone would gladly answer all your questions. Or we have the mighty google as well.

do you not see how ridiculous this is lol? why is crucial info not immediately available in-game to the player?

and no, Q&A chat is not immediate info. 

a lot of older players like myself got by via trial and error, and it was NOT a pleasant experience. if DE wants to retain newer players, they'll have to make more info readily available in-game.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[RafMatador22]

8 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

No. Categorically, no.

If the game is unable to explain itself, it needs to provide a way to fix mistakes a player makes, because they are unaware. 

Almost nothing in the game is explained. To understand many aspects of the game you need to open a wiki and that is objectively a bad game design.

Liches are NEVER explained ANYWHERE (apart from a small tutorial box that accessible after you create it, which is too late).
And wiki is NOT the game. I am usually very possitive about the game and critical only where it matters...

and here IT MATTERS.

I totally agree with OP. DE either have to offer a way to "dispell" a Lich or lock Liches behind something explicitly or teach players about Liches in advance, but this has been an issue since day one and it's horrible.

Well in the case of the lichs, when I was a very beginner before anything I went to google to find out what the hell a kuva lich was, for me that didn't hurt a bit, I like it, I like to research things, but I understand who doesn't like it .

[Cerikus]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

That'd be kinda cool tbh, paying some Red Veil assassins or something, to slaughter the lich. I'd do it once, just for shiggles.

The problem is that it's just band-aiding a flawed system, which Liches/Sisters are from the begining. The system was a cool idea, but the initial execution was terrible and the attempts to rework were all just band-aids.

- The lich content island should go away.
- The lich missions should go away.
- Murmur should be aquirable at ANY mission that is on the planet currently controled by the lich.
- There is no reason for Liches to scale that high, when SP exists.
- The randomness of the "password" should be removed.
- You should have to go through all 5 planets, learning all the requiem words in sequence and then be allowed to go and kill the lich. 

  

2 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

Well in the case of the lichs, when I was a very beginner before anything I went to google to find out what the hell a kuva lich was, for me that didn't hurt a bit, I like it, I like to research things, but I understand who doesn't like it .

How did you know Liches exist?

Edited June 12, 2023 by Cerikus

[Rixuel]

By not making that option, DE is shooting themselves in the feet (DE losing player retention)

Edited June 12, 2023 by Rixuel

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

personally i dont enjoy lich hunts, i just did a few to get some weapons i wanted and refined (fin) but i understand those that do, also do think having an option to abandon and stop dealing with a lich should be a viable option , least offered for those who find they need/want but have the usual , are you sure you wanna abandon this ect prompts 

[RafMatador22]

9 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

How did you know Liches exist?

Is it really that hard to know about their existence? Unless you want to play completely isolated, without friends to say anything, or with chat disabled. They are even mentioned in the game's codex, I just went to Google and searched for warframe kuva lich and that's it, but I repeat, I don't mind doing that, but I understand those who are too lazy to search.

Edited June 12, 2023 by RafMatador22

[(PSN)rexis12]

Just now, RafMatador22 said:

just went to Google and searched for warframe kuva lich

See that's the issue.

You SHOULDN'T HAVE TO USE AN EXTERNAL SOURCE to learn about a mechanic.

This should ALL be in the game, explained from top to bottom how the Lich System works. There should've been a full on quest, where we murk a proto-lich or whatever, and we are EXPLAINED IN GAME how the mechanic works.

At no point, should a gameechanic need an external source to be explained. Especially if you want that game to have any kind of player retention.

[Cerikus]

5 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

Is it really that hard to know about their existence? Unless you want to play completely isolated, without friends to say anything, or with chat disabled. They are even mentioned in the game's codex, I just went to Google and searched for warframe kuva lich and that's it, but I repeat, I don't mind doing that, but I understand those who are too lazy to search.

Yes, it is, as evidenced by the amout of threads of this nature. Unless you know a guy, you can never know they exist. I may be mistaken, but I don't think the codex page is there, unless you create a lich. But even still, how do you google something you know nothing about.

This game relies on you knowing a guy or a youtuber.

I judge this issue based on an unrealistic hypothetical situation:

Imagine all players and content creators and also the wiki cease to exist right now. Would the game survive?

[RafMatador22]

On 2023-06-13 at 12:50 AM, (PSN)rexis12 said:

See that's the issue.

You SHOULDN'T HAVE TO USE AN EXTERNAL SOURCE to learn about a mechanic.

This should ALL be in the game, explained from top to bottom how the Lich System works. There should've been a full on quest, where we murk a proto-lich or whatever, and we are EXPLAINED IN GAME how the mechanic works.

At no point, should a gameechanic need an external source to be explained. Especially if you want that game to have any kind of player retention.

Between us, kuva lich is not an activity for new players, I myself only went to do my first one when I was getting to MR20, and it wasn't because they were unaware, I simply chose to wait a bit to do this activity, and of course research a little before doing this, for me it really doesn't cost anything to do this.

 

On 2023-06-13 at 12:56 AM, Cerikus said:

Imagine all players and content creators and also the wiki cease to exist right now. Would the game survive?

Even Counter Strike 1.6 survives to this day, I'm sure Warframe would still survive, even because it would take a whole internet file burn, to delete all sources of information related to Warframe. calm down man lol

[PublikDomain]

35 minutes ago, Rixuel said:

By not making that option, DE is shooting themselves in the feet (DE losing player retention)

Not only that, they lose engagement. If they actually implemented the weekly Lich-be-gone system they had originally talked about then I would continue spawning new Liches, but since they haven't the system is now dead to me. At this point there's nothing about them I need, but I do want to see what neat-looking Liches I could get. However, I also don't want to pay the idiot tax (my time and resources spent on an uncancelable Lich) when the RNG inevitably spawns junk I have no interest in. My time and efforts are punished when I engage, so I just don't. If I could just pay off a waste-of-time Lich I don't like then I could safely spawn them and either do them if I like what I get or cancel them and wait until the next weekly reset if I don't.

Edited June 13, 2023 by PublikDomain

[Cerikus]

4 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

Even Counter Strike 1.6 survives to this day, I'm sure Warframe would still survive, even because it would take a whole internet file burn, to delete all sources of information related to Warframe. calm down man lol

You don't understand what I mean. 

What I meant is that if all those players that know stuff and all the information written everywhere EXCEPT for in the game would disappear, the game would be in a lot of trouble. There are systems and mechanics in the game that are currently impossible to understand from just playing the game. The game itself sometimes doesn't even know how it works.

It takes like 5 minutes to understand the whole breadth of how CS 1.6 works.

Just so you know exactly what I mean I can give you a simple task:
Figure out how to get the corrupted mods without using a single resource outside of the game.

[Skoomaseller]

32 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

but I understand those who are too lazy to search.

what level of contrarianism is this

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

6 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Just so you know exactly what I mean I can give you a simple task:

Figure out how to get the corrupted mods without using a single resource outside of the game.

I actually like that. Just one day running a weird mission on Deimos(used to be derelicts back then), crack a vault, and surprise this weird mod. Just play every mission and do every activity. Just do *everything* and eventually you'll farm *everything*

I wanna say experience and doing things is how things like corrupted mods get "learned about" without using Google 

Edited June 13, 2023 by (XBOX)CaligulaTwily

[RafMatador22]

5 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

You don't understand what I mean. 

What I meant is that if all those players that know stuff and all the information written everywhere EXCEPT for in the game would disappear, the game would be in a lot of trouble. There are systems and mechanics in the game that are currently impossible to understand from just playing the game. The game itself sometimes doesn't even know how it works.

It takes like 5 minutes to understand the whole breadth of how CS 1.6 works.

Just so you know exactly what I mean I can give you a simple task:
Figure out how to get the corrupted mods without using a single resource outside of the game.

You are reporting very extreme situations man, if lack of clarity meant the death of a game, the Dark souls franchise would be long dead, but a lot of people love it, including that lack of clarity, some people like things not to be so clear.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Just now, RafMatador22 said:

You are reporting very extreme situations man, if lack of clarity meant the death of a game, the Dark souls franchise would be long dead, but a lot of people love it, including that lack of clarity, some people like things not to be so clear.

This. I wanted to say something about Fromsoft or Eldenring or Darksouls

[Cerikus]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

I wanna say experience and doing things is how things like corrupted mods get "learned about" without using Google 

You are a new player and you come to the locked door. It says you need a dragon key. Without using a wiki or asking someone, how do you figure out how to open it?

1 minute ago, RafMatador22 said:

You are reporting very extreme situations man, if lack of clarity meant the death of a game, the Dark souls franchise would be long dead, but a lot of people love it, including that lack of clarity, some people like things not to be so clear.

Yes. On an extreme situation I am showcasing how this game is unable to explain itself.

The basic mechanics of Dark souls are simple. The lack of clarity comes in form of trying to figure out where you are and where you are going and how to survive the next encounter. Dark souls doesn't have any issues explaining the basic mechanics to the player. Because in fact it's quite a simple game.

The simplest example is modding in Warframe. It's never explained and it's the most important thing. And it's killing a lot of new possible new players.

[Alukawaii]

welcome to dark soul... wait wrong game, well all jokes aside, when i made the first lichs it was horrible, but in the end there is a foolproof tactic with which you can always kill them, invisible loki and a decent weapon with the damage that the lich is weak to

[(PSN)rexis12]

1 minute ago, RafMatador22 said:

You are reporting very extreme situations man, if lack of clarity meant the death of a game, the Dark souls franchise would be long dead, but a lot of people love it, including that lack of clarity, some people like things not to be so clear.

Cool.

Warframe isn't Dark Souls or Fromsoft now is it?

Also, doesn't work because Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and Sekiro all have developer messages that tell you the mechanics of the game right there at the start.

To compare, we still have players that don't know that rolling through the Eximus attacks can avoid them completely, because unless you literally use outside resource you wouldn't know.

27 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

kuva lich is not an activity for new players

And how would you KNOW?

You literally unlock the ability to make Kuva Liches the moment War Within is finished, and chances are while also already done Rising Tides since that's unlocked from Second Dream.

Which is unlocked from MR5 by the way.

How would you know that it's a Late Game, not supposed to be new player experience, and not just another mechanic change like... Archwing, or the aforementioned Railjack.

31 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

and of course research a little before doing this,

Again.

At no point, should an external resource be needed to understand the basic mechanics of a system.

Warframe is bad enough that  like Proc Limits, and status chance weightage and all that jazz is under several layers of 'Learn from Youtubers'. The sheer basics of The Kuva Lich System should NOT BE 'Something you research'.

It should be explained in game, by top to bottom, like ANY GOOD MECHANIC should.