Thermal Sunder Garuda...

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

 

Compared to Seeking Talons & Dread Mirror, sorry to say Mika as I too do enjoy a lot doing blood orb nukes, it's super fun, Thermal Sunder Garuda is brutally superior, as unlike slash or Miasma + Spores, which has its own room for inconsistency when spores start to decay and you need to find a new vessel to cast them, heat proc's timer is refreshed and amplified with each new application of it, hence why the heat inherit strategy works, and why Thermal Sunder is so potent.

While on lower levels it works because building for strength deals more than enough damage on the cast to wipe enemies, it isn't limited to it, as precisely, with higher duration and continuous upkeep of Thermal Sunder's areas, you raise a quite literal hell.

But again, I've never found a single Thermal Sunder Garuda!
What's more, it was only as of recently I found my first ever Thermal Sunder Titania on a pub match!
Even further, if you go to the Warframe Wiki page for Thermal Sunder, there are complaints about Thermal Sunder Garuda on the very first comment of the article!

but you can easily scale Dread mirror to millions+ damage, it scales off enemy HP and Seeking talons scales off Fire rate as long as you get it to 100% status chance, meaning if you have something like the Vermisplicer or Supra, it can easily put hundreds of slash procs on a enemy.

for example, if your doing steelpath circuit, you can just remove overguard on a Thrax or Eximus and then spam it to death with Dread Mirror, you can then easily have a like 1mil+ damage nuke that can be modded to have a 28m range.

"

All incoming enemy ranged and melee attacks are blocked by the mirror on contact, while the damage is absorbed into the Dread Heart beating above the mirror's frame; incoming enemy damage is first multiplied by 1 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 times then absorbed by the heart.

• 10% of the victim's maximum health is absorbed as initial damage for the heart when Garuda strikes the target.
  • Maximum health is considered from health classes (e.g. Cloned Flesh, Flesh, etc.), not shield/armor classes.
  • If the victim is instantly killed, the health absorbed is increased to 20%.
  • Percentage of health to heart damage is not affected by mods, but the initial value is affected by the damage capture multiplier as well.
  • Minimum health threshold is 1000. Meaning, target's maximum health for damage capture will be considered as 1000 if the actual value is lower than this threshold.
• The victim receives damage equal to 10% of their maximum health as  Slash damage, but these rules apply:
  • The damage does not bypass Armor and Shield. It will be reduced by damage reduction from the Armor and deal to Shield before health, just like other typical damages.
  • While the damage is calculated from Health, the instant kill threshold of 40% will be considered from a combination of Health and Shield, regardless of Armor.
• Mirror duration is affected by Ability Duration.
• Damage capture multiplier is affected by Ability Strength.

 

• While the Dread Heart is floating above Garuda, holding down the ability button (default 1 ) causes Garuda to grasp the heart in her talons and drain 50 Energy per second to continuously increase the absorbed damage by 100% of the currently stored damage value per second. Releasing the ability button or running out of energy causes Garuda to throw the heart as a high velocity explosive projectile toward the location on the aiming reticle. The heart bursts on impact with an enemy or a surface to inflict the amplified damage as  Impact, has 100% Status Chance and a 6 / 7 / 8 / 10 meter radius.
  • Charge energy drain per second is affected by Ability Efficiency.
  • Charge damage per second is not affected by mods.
  • Explosion radius is affected by Ability Range.
  • Garuda cannot perform parkour Maneuvers (except for rolling and sliding) or general interactions while channeling the heart. However, she can still move.
  • Charging in mid-air will allow Garuda to hover for a few seconds.
  • The explosion bypasses obstacles in the environment and its damage does not decrease with distance.

"

due to it using 10% of the targets HP, this easily scales. especially if you use it on a high HP enemy like eximus,

really, if you build her for this, you can do a Range + efficiency build and do not need to worry about duration/strength since both the charge and percent health to heart damage are not effected either.

if you are worried about blood altar, you can just do Gloom since that will also be effected more by efficiency than blood altar.

 

like i get what you mean, but i still think both of the other choices are far superior for their offensive capabilities, though i guess this Thermal sunder build is great for afk farming/ defense based on how it scales.

also, due to how Seeking talons works, you can just do Seeking talons > volt 4 or any AoE weapon/ability

"Enemies damaged by the flying talons are marked with Garuda's symbol for 10 seconds. Attacking marked enemies with weapons and abilities grants a 75% chance to cause a  Slash Status Effect. Marked enemies will still receive status effects from other sources in addition to the  Slash proc (if a weapon's status chance triggers and hits an enemy affected by Seeking Talons, the weapon's Status Effect will still be applied, the  Slash proc is then added, resulting in the enemy receiving 2 status effects at the same time)."

 

like for example,

you could have a Garuda use seeking talons and a Kullervo use his 2 or 3 or 4 and boom tons of slash procs on everyone marked.

or have a voruna use her 2 with high range or have Citrine use her Prismatic Crystal and then Fractured Blast spam.

 

[GPrime96]

6 hours ago, (PSN)MegaSilk0 said:

I figured I would try this build out since it "is enough to overcome steel path enemies" and I'm a big fan of using every meta build I can make. The results were so disappointing on a steel path earth mission that I ended up just using my melee to run through it. If this is your idea of a gamebreaking meta build or whatever, I'm scared of what you think about any frame that's more than starter adjacent.

Thermal Sunder do garbage damage on it’s own until the enemy’s armor is stripped (although by the time you armor stripped with Thermal Sunder, you would killed the enemies already when not using Gauss) or spam Seeking Talons. Which is why other people use different subsumes for her, like Gloom/Nourish/Breach Surge/Roar/Eclipse/Xata’s Whisper/Well of Life/Expedite Suffering/Wrathful Advance (for fun)

[Seele]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika said:

--reasons garuda kicks butt--

 

Kind of my point, Garuda is an incredibly capable warframe exactly as she is out of the box. People don't do thermal sunder (just) because it's strong, they do it because it's brainlessly easy. I'm not opposed to there being incredibly easy, brain-off ways of playing, but it should be reserved for low level star chart node farming and should never be so strong as to be able to clear arbitrations or steel path as this does.

[Traumtulpe]

I'm just gonna repeat some facts here since there is so much misinformation:

Garuda's passive does not apply to Thermal Sunder. The reason it applies to her own abilities is that they are coded as weapon hits - several things that are supposed to apply to weapons also apply to her abilities - while the same is not true for Thermal Sunder.

This is not an effective strategy on the Steel Path. Yes, you can kill pretty much anything with TS, given enough casts, as the damage just keeps multiplying. But that's the thing, you need to many casts. It's literally slower than just using a good weapon and zero abilities, a lot slower in fact.

I think it's clear at this point that OP's claims (TS Garuda in 99% of missions, 3 casts kill any enemy in the game, etc.) were just straight up lies he used to try and get something nerfed he personally disliked.

TS Garuda is a bot build. If you want to stand in a corner and spam TS with a macro until you get banned be my guest. But after the "wall whipping" steel essence farm DE put countermeasures in place, didn't they? Then again TS can't even make enemies die in a specific place, so you wouldn't get much loot to begin with.

[Seele]

48 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

-snip-

If it's so ineffective I wouldn't see it so often and it wouldn't ruin my experience every time I did.

You think I'm exaggerating or making things up to nerf something I personally dislike. What stake do you have in this? What does it matter to you? If it doesn't matter at all, like it sure seems to -- you don't encounter this build and don't play it yourself -- you can just not post.

Video evidence was posted here of how obnoxious it can be, and several other users corroborated my claims, so for you to deny that it is effective is just obstinacy.

[Pakaku]

Who would have thought that a brain-dead nuke ability that can be duct-taped onto anything would end up overused and abused. It's kind of getting onto the same level of bland annoyance as Volt speed spam IMO.

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Pakaku

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 16 horas, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika dijo:

But you can easily scale Dread mirror to millions+ damage, it scales off enemy HP and Seeking talons scales off Fire rate as long as you get it to 100% status chance, meaning if you have something like the Vermisplicer or Supra, it can easily put hundreds of slash procs on a enemy.

For example, if your doing steelpath circuit, you can just remove overguard on a Thrax or Eximus and then spam it to death with Dread Mirror, you can then easily have a like 1mil+ damage nuke that can be modded to have a 28m range.

Indeed Dread Mirror can easily scale to really high numbers, and an interesting fact about it is that it can scale so high, that it deals no damage at all.
For this you must reach a point where the numbers of the mirror becomes a formula (3.21e+03M style). Ought you check a video by REAPZ for this, I like his Garuda vids a lot!

But here's the thing, Dread Mirror unlike Thermal Sunder, requires of direct engagement from the player to scale.
Not only do you need to tag an enemy to first get the mirror and blood heart, you also need to be constantly taking hits, and lastly charge the orb yourself to further amplify its damage. Seeking Talons, on the other hand, will target enemies they find within their "focus lens". This means they need to be visible as well.

While the potential scaling is much faster and equally capable of dishing out damage, for indeed these two abilities pair excellently, as they were made to do so, playing Garuda normally requires of the player to actually target and face enemies directly. It's more active, but on closed tilesets against armoured enemies, it will be much, much more tedious to find a way to target all possible enemies from all possible angles with Seeking Talons so that the damage from the Blood Heart isn't pitiful or harshly diminished, feeling like a letdown.
That is the difference with Thermal Sunder.

Thermal Sunder doesn't need to target first an enemy to be activated.
Thermal Sunder doesn't require of thought positioning and usage of more abilities that synergise with it to scale further.
Thermal Sunder doesn't need you to remove the overguard from an enemy so then you can spam it on him to gain more damage, because it will already remove overguard all by itself, and kill the enemy in the process.

Thermal Sunder simply needs to be casted, again, and again, and again, becoming stronger each time, with 0 effort or thought behind it.

Comparatively, both sources of damage work wonders, but one is totally AFKable, whilst the other requires of the player to do something more than press the same button each second to kill the entire room.

 

hace 10 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

I'm just gonna repeat some facts here since there is so much misinformation:

Garuda's passive does not apply to Thermal Sunder. The reason it applies to her own abilities is that they are coded as weapon hits - several things that are supposed to apply to weapons also apply to her abilities - while the same is not true for Thermal Sunder.

This is not an effective strategy on the Steel Path. Yes, you can kill pretty much anything with TS, given enough casts, as the damage just keeps multiplying. But that's the thing, you need to many casts. It's literally slower than just using a good weapon and zero abilities, a lot slower in fact.

I think it's clear at this point that OP's claims (TS Garuda in 99% of missions, 3 casts kill any enemy in the game, etc.) were just straight up lies he used to try and get something nerfed he personally disliked.

TS Garuda is a bot build. If you want to stand in a corner and spam TS with a macro until you get banned be my guest. But after the "wall whipping" steel essence farm DE put countermeasures in place, didn't they? Then again TS can't even make enemies die in a specific place, so you wouldn't get much loot to begin with.

I guess that is partially targeted towards what I said.
Even if Garuda's passive doesn't work on Thermal Sunder, 448% virtual strength with no external sources of boosting is still remarkably strong for such an ability.

About the effectiveness on Steel Path, it is highly debatable.
I will leave this short video here for demonstration purposes, but you are right about it requiring a large amount of casts to do good damage.

Perhaps a weapon would have killed the group in front of this player faster.
But it is clear to me, it wouldn't have dealt with anyone else on their surroundings, while Thermal Sunder, would.

 

Regarding OP saying this was "present in 99% of gamemodes and that it kills in three casts", he hasn't mentioned this at all.

They've said it had become popular, and that the best way to avoid it for them was to play solo, since their friends don't play but as much any more / lately.
He doesn't inquire each mission will have one, but that he fears finding another, possibly ruining their experience.
His reasoning to ask for this ability to be nerfed have far been explained, argued, and exemplified by others.
The one lying here, is you.

I don't mean to come off as rude or as attacking your opinion, but I disagree with parts of it.

Edited July 6, 2023 by (PSN)Pablogamer585
Added reference to Reapz' video of Blood Orb dealing no damage due to excess storing of it.

[Traumtulpe]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Regarding OP saying this was "present in 99% of gamemodes and that it kills in three casts", he hasn't mentioned this at all.

On 2023-07-05 at 11:08 AM, Seele said:

This isn't one guy I saw, by the way, it's almost every time I play in public lobbies. Almost every. Like 99%+ of the time.

On 2023-07-05 at 11:03 AM, Seele said:

two hot and a cold TS will typically kill any enemy in the game

One of us can't read. And yes, a large number of weapons will vaporize that group instantly.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 1 minuto, Traumtulpe dijo:

One of us can't read.

I'll take the blame for that this time, I must've skipped one of the messages while going through them.

And surely there's a good amount of weapons that would kill that small static group of targets on a perfect scenario like is the paused Simulacrum, but 5-6 seconds of casting an ability that doesn't require of galvanized / arcanes stacks or any form of prior preparation at all to kill at that rate, seems faster and more effective to me than a weapon that will kill that group in front of you in a blink before needing to move on to group 2 and 3.

Again this is a very debatable and subjective aspect.

[Seele]

"99%+" of the time is obvious hyperbole but, given how it usually takes one lobby of public play for me to run into one, and then switch to solo, it may still be accurate. My sample size is relatively low.

For what it's worth I live in Japan, and that may affect what's meta in public games. Before this became popular I still saw plenty of Wukongs with launchers, despite it having fallen from favor in the West by then.

[GPrime96]

11 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

One of us can't read. And yes, a large number of weapons will vaporize that group instantly.

More like any of them, by the time he killed those enemies, any heavy attacking built Melee would’ve wiped the whole group 2x over

Edited July 7, 2023 by GPrime96

[Seele]

Played one public lobby to do the ESO nightwave challenge, thermal sunder garuda. In two waves, 687 abilities used, 861 kills. I thought SO had a system in place to disable an ability if you used it too much.

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

1 hour ago, Seele said:

Played one public lobby to do the ESO nightwave challenge, thermal sunder garuda. In two waves, 687 abilities used, 861 kills. I thought SO had a system in place to disable an ability if you used it too much.

• Injected abilities are disabled using the conditions applicable to the new slot they occupy.

People are replacing Dread Mirror since 1st Abilities are not disabled when spammed. It's how my Gyre spams Pillage even though its a 3rd ability. I replaced her Arcsphere with Pillage and she is off to the races.

A Mirage can do those kill numbers without needing to spam.

Edited July 7, 2023 by (PSN)FunyFlyBoy

[Seele]

2 hours ago, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy said:

• Injected abilities are disabled using the conditions applicable to the new slot they occupy.

People are replacing Dread Mirror since 1st Abilities are not disabled when spammed. It's how my Gyre spams Pillage even though its a 3rd ability. I replaced her Arcsphere with Pillage and she is off to the races.

A Mirage can do those kill numbers without needing to spam.

Good to know. Stupid, but good to know.

And good for Mirage. Yet to be annoyed out of public matchmaking by a Mirage.

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

1 hour ago, Seele said:

Good to know. Stupid, but good to know.

And good for Mirage. Yet to be annoyed out of public matchmaking by a Mirage.

I honestly chalk that up to bias really. I went into a ESO and Mirage had 72% of the damage and kills, mind you, I was running Pillage Gyre. If a Mirage is able to kill just as quickly as a Garuda, the only difference at that point is how more noticeable Garuda is in her corner doing one thing versus Mirage. You don't see the Mirage doing most of the killing until after you leave so it gives you a false sense of contribution. You see the Garuda spamming without stopping, things die, so you know without looking at the end of mission results they are likely killing everything. 

Confirmation bias at its finest. The way you retort about Mirage even proves the point its just confirmation bias. Mirage kills just as quickly as Garuda but you're saying its only Garuda that annoys you out of public? How is this possible if that both kill at the same speed? You're focusing on one and not the other. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by (PSN)FunyFlyBoy

[Seele]

7 hours ago, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy said:

I honestly chalk that up to bias really. I went into a ESO and Mirage had 72% of the damage and kills, mind you, I was running Pillage Gyre. If a Mirage is able to kill just as quickly as a Garuda, the only difference at that point is how more noticeable Garuda is in her corner doing one thing versus Mirage. You don't see the Mirage doing most of the killing until after you leave so it gives you a false sense of contribution. You see the Garuda spamming without stopping, things die, so you know without looking at the end of mission results they are likely killing everything. 

Confirmation bias at its finest. The way you retort about Mirage even proves the point its just confirmation bias. Mirage kills just as quickly as Garuda but you're saying its only Garuda that annoys you out of public? How is this possible if that both kill at the same speed? You're focusing on one and not the other. 

I haven't seen this Mirage build. If it made your gameplay un-fun, then I'm sorry to hear that.
I recognize that some builds are more effective than others, and so I don't just dislike things other players do that outperform me.

However, if I encountered a Mirage that eliminated all the gameplay from the game for me and made a god-awful racket doing it, I would complain (sorry, constructively criticize) just as well as I do for TS Garuda.

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

1 hour ago, Seele said:

I haven't seen this Mirage build. If it made your gameplay un-fun, then I'm sorry to hear that.

Not sure how you have not see this Mirage build considering it's been a meta build for her for well over a year at this point, and she is one of the three pillars of ESO farming along with Saryn and Volt. All she needs is her Legerdemain augment, and all the Archon Mods for Heat, Cold, Toxin, and Electric procs and she blows up the entire map (Archon Mods just made it better, she was still nuking maps before they came out). 

No, it doesn't bother me. I've never been bothered by others taking a lion share of the kills with an easy nuke build. I look at it as, oh snap, I can actually chill since this person is doing everything, cool. Less try hard. Focus on other stuff. Pick up allies who somehow died instead. 

1 hour ago, Seele said:

However, if I encountered a Mirage that eliminated all the gameplay from the game for me and made a god-awful racket doing it, I would complain (sorry, constructively criticize) just as well as I do for TS Garuda.

Wouldn't hear Mirage. Pretty sure her mines are practically silent for other players. 

[Seele]

1 hour ago, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy said:

Wouldn't hear Mirage. Pretty sure her mines are practically silent for other players. 

So while I wouldn't revel in the lack of gameplay, ESO is rather pointedly based on kill efficiency, so I can't blame people for bringing high-kill-efficiency builds there. I play Volt in ESO so I'm certainly not taking some holier-than-thou stance. If TS Garuda was aforementioned person's best ESO build, so be it, but I still cannot stand the sound effect spam.

ESO also has so much spawn density that it's rare, if not impossible, for there to truly be no enemies. I was able to get a whole 77 kills in two waves against that Garuda, but that was not trying my damnedest either.

That anecdote was largely to demonstrate the unavoidable ubiquity of the build. I only went into one public lobby to do a nightwave challenge and encountered yet another TS Garuda. I'm tickled that you think it's awesome to have ez-spam nuke teammates, but please try to recognize that not everyone thinks that way. Warframe is already a fairly easy game and I've never felt the need or want to be carried. I'm happy to be outdone by teammates who actually engage with the game in a meaningful way to do so (and while this Mirage build you describe seems to not do that, it at least gets a leg up on TS Garuda for not being SFX obnoxious).

[Traumtulpe]

7 hours ago, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy said:

Pretty sure her mines are practically silent for other players.

They are. You do see sparkly orbs stacking up on spawn positions though, and enemies just blow up the instant they spawn in.

[TimeBeing]

On 2023-07-05 at 4:00 AM, Traumtulpe said:

You don't have to pretend there is some super secret thing going on here. I play Garuda, I have the relevant Arcanes to restore her health. You don't even need Arcanes in fact, try a Bleeding Dragon key with health regeneration.

Yes Garuda (and Harrow, and others for that matter) can nonstop spam Thermal Sunder, but the thing is I don't see the point.

The point is to go afk. These ppl dont care about fun, theyre casting TS on cd (possibly using a macro?) and spending most of the game afk

Edited July 12, 2023 by TimeBeing

[TimeBeing]

I really hope something is being done about this.

My ears can't take it anymore. I have to mute my game or just abandon missions when I see a garuda.

 

As if the abuse of your eardrums wasn't bad enough, the whole purpose of this strategy is to go afk. But these ppl are in public missions for a reason... they need teammates to carry their dead weight (example/ where i most see garuda TS: mirror defense). 

 

[Limelight143]

Can't wait for this to get nerfed. 

[Stafelund]

For those who doesn't say they rarely encounter this, try going on Asia servers. This is the new wukong+zarr combo and I personally hope they don't nerf this because for number one their nerfs seem to be as widespread as a fired pellets from a shotgun that it affects other stuff that shouldn't have been nerfed lately, either that or the nerf they do can be disproportionate.

Number two, I don't mind it, it's pve and they're still contributing kills and giving me affinity, focus in the long run. Plus I still end up getting kills from time to time. This was my reason for partial indifference in the Wuclone trick but these players still move around because an enemy can potentially ruin them if they happen to be hit at their lowest hp. I'm pretty sure these guys are macroing it and if anything DE should probably crack down on that lane because this combo, when done manually, as clever and amusing as it is it is tiring to the fingers. The only reason it's effective because it's being done in an automated manner which is actually beyond going with the mechanics. 

I think that would be the best approach honestly. It's one thing to use macro for melee and accessbility, and there's this. 

However, I do mind the visual ****ery it does, combined with Eximii and the thermal sunder spam there's too much going on the screen and I can't see what's ahead. Stuff from behind the death circle can still shoot, and I don't like not being able to see them clearly.

EDIT: I don't really get people crying about when there's something so strong, they cry about it because their teammate gets more kills than them. This ends up nerfs happening to stuff people worked on and min-maxed with and understood how the game mechanics work. Sure you may get less affinity on the weapon you want to level up, but you get affinity anyways. You get the items your teammates killed. The only thing that happens is that your teammate will mostly get the small "500 kills" at extract, and that doesn't even make a dent of a difference, just a small recognition on the end screen, as well as their profile.

If Warframe rewards players with more kills, and players who get less kills are left in the dust with nothing, then sure, I'd understand. But Warframe doesn't work that way. Pretty much, most, if not all games when a player does something it's a benefit for everyone in the team. There's no point in being too competitive with numbers. That's why I don't see any P2W in this game, because in the end, what they'll have will help the players besides them whenever they utilize what they've got. After learning that the devs wanted Warframe to be a power fantasy, and combined with this sentiment with players crying over strong combos but nothing is affecting them in the end, I adamantly more oppose nerfing in this game. I can't help but think players who wish this are suffering from a "crab-in-a-bucket" mentality.

If it's a stupidly easy to make combo, I'd be fine with the nerfs, but nah. And no, if you mention buying gear with plat to make said combo achievable, then that is automatically irrelevant.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Stafelund
rant about nerfs

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2023-07-05 at 4:08 AM, Seele said:

Thermal Sunder spam is obnoxious, both in gameplay and in audio.

YES. Especially audio.  Thermal Sunder does seem to respect the "Reduce Ally VFX" option in settings, for which I am thankful.  But the sound it makes is just torturous.  That chime-y beep... I'm convinced it's the worst sound in a game that really has a lot of questionable audio effects.

[Stafelund]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

YES. Especially audio.  Thermal Sunder does seem to respect the "Reduce Ally VFX" option in settings, for which I am thankful.  But the sound it makes is just torturous.  That chime-y beep... I'm convinced it's the worst sound in a game that really has a lot of questionable audio effects.

I forgot about that feature, so I'm thankful. Since the eximus rework there's huge tendency for the screen to get cluttered, the thermal sunder spam doesn't help too. I'll turn this on now.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Stafelund