Thermal Sunder Garuda...

[Tiltskillet]

Still kind of rare where I play, but I've run into them more than I did a couple of months ago.

Not having played it, I'm not going to speculate on whether it's unbalanced or not.  But I have definitely seen/heard it kpm competitively in 30 minute SP and Duviri.   So whatever its ceiling is,  it's not just a base star chart cheese strat like some things.

It is definitely hell on my eardrums though, so I hope DE addresses that aspect even if they do nothing else.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[(PSN)rexis12]

The more I learn about how none of the 'mitigation' mechanics in this game works, the less I care about this, hell I support it more considering something as basic as stunlocking the enemy doesn't DO anything to stop their attacks.

So I say, let's ALL use Thermal Sunder Garuda, it's not like anything else #*!%ing works.

[Traumtulpe]

Someone should make a team of:

• Hildryn with Voracious Metastasis and Nourish
• Any 3 other frames with Thermal Sunder and all casting speed archon shards.

This setup should make short work of even levelcap. And if you record it you'll probably get Thermal Sunder nerfed.

[Okaazkul]

The only Garuda I have seen is myself when I played her, and it's not with Thermal Sunder.

il y a une heure, Traumtulpe a dit :

Someone should make a team of:

• Hildryn with Voracious Metastasis and Nourish

How and why ? Last time I checked you cannot put 2 Helminth abilities on a single config, and Voracious Metastasis on Hildryn generate so much energy per second that make Nourish totally unnecessary for energy gain.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, Okaazkul said:

The only Garuda I have seen is myself when I played her, and it's not with Thermal Sunder.

How and why ? Last time I checked you cannot put 2 Helminth abilities on a single config, and Voracious Metastasis on Hildryn generate so much energy per second that make Nourish totally unnecessary for energy gain.

Oh right, my bad. I didn't think about it too hard, I guess with 75% efficiency Nourish isn't needed. But getting 250 energy per second would be dope.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[sunderthefirmament]

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

It is definitely hell on my eardrums though, so I hope DE addresses that aspect even if they do nothing else

I cannot fathom how Thermal Sunder’s sound effects made it into the game. I avoid playing Gauss because that beeping sound is really grating. 
 

They don’t often replace sound effects. But I’m hoping they make an exception for Gauss Prime. 

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 5 heures, Tiltskillet a dit :

Not having played it, I'm not going to speculate on whether it's unbalanced or not.  But I have definitely seen/heard it kpm competitively in 30 minute SP and Duviri.   So whatever its ceiling is,  it's not just a base star chart cheese strat like some things.

 

I never used it neither, and I've seen a Thermal Sunder Garuda only once (and only once a Thermal Sunder Harrow), but I think the problem is the way Thermal Sunder damage is stacking, as someone said previously :

Le 02/10/2023 à 05:44, FightingTAKA a dit :

The really broken part of TS is the part that checks DPS when the Fire proc hits and treats it as if it's twice the damage of the previous hit. As a result, the damage of TS will increase by 2x → 4x → 8x → 16x → 32x → 64x → 128x → 256x by hitting repeatedly. If you attack 10 times in a row, you will receive 1024x damage. If the initial DPS is 500, the final damage will be 512,000. If you keep hitting it repeatedly, FlameProc's DPS will easily exceed 1000k. This is a process not seen in normal flame status abnormalities. This effect drives out other flames.

Unfortunately, I still haven't tested this, but is Thermal Sunder damage is stacking this way (and stacking with Garuda's passive and beeing boosted by the way the Heat status proc stacks) I think it's a non-intended glitch that needs to be fixed (multipliers are stacking in a weird way, a bit like Xata's Whisper and Breach Surge before the fix).

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Unfortunately, I still haven't tested this, but is Thermal Sunder damage is stacking this way (and stacking with Garuda's passive and beeing boosted by the way the Heat status proc stacks) I think it's a non-intended glitch that needs to be fixed (multipliers are stacking in a weird way, a bit like Xata's Whisper and Breach Surge before the fix).

Garuda's passive has no effect whatsoever on Thermal Sunder. And with Archon Vitality, Thermal Sunder actually scales even faster -1x, 3x, 9x, 27x, 81x, 243x, etc. - this is working as intended, there is nothing weird or bugged about it. Thermal Sunder simply reapplies a duplicate of any existing Heat procs, which will stack with and refresh the previous ones, and Archon Vitality doubles the newly applied stack.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 53 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

Garuda's passive has no effect whatsoever on Thermal Sunder.

It should. But, as said, I wasn't able to test (lack of time).

il y a 54 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

Thermal Sunder simply reapplies a duplicate of any existing Heat procs, which will stack with and refresh the previous ones,

It shouldn't work like this. That's why I think it's non intended. Refresh the duration of all stacks of Heat is normal, but duplicate all stacks of Heat is not normal. This happens because the damage each instace of Thermal Sunder deals on enemies already affected by Heat status will add the previous DoT value it to its own damage, but this will never happen on other sources of Heat Status.

Xata's Whisper and Breach Surge also used to have weird scaling damage (and for a very long time), till they got fixed.

Also, this Thermal Sunder "exponential scaling feature"does not happen (as reported by players that tested) against Shields or Overguard, only HP.

There are many things weird with Thermal Sunder.

[Qriist]

I have much less of an issue with Thermal Sunder's audio spam than I do with the visual spam.

It is perhaps the single most obnoxious skill in the game because when someone spams it I cannot see the battlefield for the duration of the mission.

Some illustratative examples I personally screenshotted:

Spoiler

The above photos were all ESO but I've increasingly come across Thermal Sunder in multiple Circuit and relic missions.

I've gotten to the point where I'll simply abort mission rather than entire spend minutes at a time guessing about level layout or enemy location.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Qriist

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

It should. But, as said, I wasn't able to test (lack of time).

It shouldn't and it doesn't.

2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

It shouldn't work like this. [...] Also, this Thermal Sunder "exponential scaling feature"does not happen (as reported by players that tested) against Shields or Overguard, only HP.

Works just fine in my testing against shields, but less effective than expected against Eximus units (overguard).

You can argue all you like about it, but Thermal Sunder *is* supposed to reapply the damage of Heat procs already on the enemy.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Qriist said:

I have much less of an issue with Thermal Sunder's audio spam than I do with the visual spam.

It is perhaps the single most obnoxious skill in the game because when someone spams it I cannot see the battlefield for the duration of the mission.

Some illustratative examples I personally screenshotted:

The above photos were all ESO but I've increasingly come across Thermal Sunder in multiple Circuit and relic missions.

I've gotten to the point where I'll simply abort mission rather than entire spend minutes at a time guessing about level layout or enemy location.

That's reminiscent of the old Ogris Napalm spam, which eventually had its visuals addressed.  Is it like that was, in that does "Reduce Teammate Visual Effects" does nothing?

[Qriist]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Is it like that was, in that does "Reduce Teammate Visual Effects" does nothing?

i'm not sure. I didn't even know that was an option, lol.

Since that toggle will presumably do nothing for my own Thermal Sunder effects I'll have to get a buddy to help me test when one is around. I'll report back later tonight.

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, Qriist said:

i'm not sure. I didn't even know that was an option, lol.

Since that toggle will presumably do nothing for my own Thermal Sunder effects I'll have to get a buddy to help me test when one is around. I'll report back later tonight.

There is a lot of stuff it doesn't work well on, but hopefully it helps in this case. 

If it's like Nightwatch Napalm was, the only true solution is to smash your monitor lower "Visual Effects Intensity".  Unfortunately this has a general aesthetic effect you might not like and reduces visual cues you might prefer to have at full strength.

[Pakaku]

12 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

So I say, let's ALL use Thermal Sunder Garuda, it's not like anything else #*!%ing works.

Maybe if I need a sleep-aide

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 1 heure, Traumtulpe a dit :

Il y a 4 heures, (NSW)AegisFifi a dit :

It should. But, as said, I wasn't able to test (lack of time).

It shouldn't and it doesn't.

It doesn't, but it should, as her passive works for her abilities. 

Il y a 2 heures, Traumtulpe a dit :

You can argue all you like about it, but Thermal Sunder *is* supposed to reapply the damage of Heat procs already on the enemy.

Could you quote some official information saying this? The game says that Thermal Sunder deals more damage on enemies already affected by Heat status, but says nothing about reapplying all Heat status procs. 

It's perhaps a translation problem, as I play in French, not English. 

The way an ability currently works may not be the way an ability should work. The two abilities I've mentioned before (Xata's Whisper and Breach Surge) are very good exemples. 

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

It doesn't, but it should, as her passive works for her abilities. 

Does it work on other injected abilities?

[AegidiusF]

il y a 6 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Does it work on other injected abilities?

I just tested and it works at least on some of them, as Ash's Shuriken.

I wasn't aware that it didn't work on Thermal Sunder. I think it should, but it's only my opinion. 

[Traumtulpe]

25 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I wasn't aware that it didn't work on Thermal Sunder. I think it should, but it's only my opinion.

Garuda's passive works on weapon damage only. Yes, Garuda's abilities deal weapon damage - they are, for example, buffed by Nourish, which buffs weapons with Viral damage.

Thermal Sunder is *not* weapon damage, as such it isn't and shouldn't be subject to Garuda's passive.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Tiltskillet]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I just tested and it works at least on some of them, as Ash's Shuriken.

I wasn't aware that it didn't work on Thermal Sunder. I think it should, but it's only my opinion. 

In between me asking and you answering I looked at Breach Surge sparks and Reave.  Breach Surge it worked.  It didn't help with Reave.   Reave is unusual though, being "health drain", and might not be representative of normal damage abilities.  Those are the only two I've ever injected on her.

I don't know whether it should work on injected abilities or not.   I kind of lean toward "better if it doesn't" but I can see it both ways.   But in any case it would be nice if it did one or the other consistently, lol.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, Tiltskillet said:

Breach Surge it worked.  It didn't help with Reave.

Breach Surge is weapon damage, Reave is not. It's really that simple.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 1 minute, Traumtulpe a dit :

Garuda's passive works on weapon damage only. Yes, Garuda's abilities deal weapon damage - they are, for example, buffed by Nourish, which buffs weapons with Viral damage.

Thermal Sunder is *not* weapon damage, as such is isn't and shouldn't be subject to Garuda's passive.

I'm sorry, but this is not correct. 

The game says it explicitly : it's the very first in game tip for Garuda : her passive works for weapon damage and ability damage. And it works on at least some Helminth abilities, as Shuriken. 

[Traumtulpe]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm sorry, but this is not correct. 

The game says it explicitly : it's the very first in game tip for Garuda : her passive works for weapon damage and ability damage. And it works on at least some Helminth abilities, as Shuriken. 

You speak very confidently about something you have no knowledge of and do not understand.

Garuda's abilities *do* deal weapon damage. So do some other abilities, Oberon's Smite, Wisp's Breach Surge, Shuriken too.

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm sorry, but this is not correct. 

The game says it explicitly : it's the very first in game tip for Garuda : her passive works for weapon damage and ability damage. And it works on at least some Helminth abilities, as Shuriken. 

Shuriken is another  "weapon" damage ability though.

edit: I guess what I'm saying is that the ability tip could be based on a misunderstanding or poor wording by whoever wrote it.  i.e., her passive works on both [her] abilities and [her] weapons, because her abilities happen to be coded as weapons.*

It's impossible to say for sure, but if Traum is right and it works on these odd "weapon" abilities and no other injected abilities, it's at least suggestive that's the case.

_{* Although as a trivial aside, it doesn't apply to her shield bash damage.  Things are never simple with DE. :P}

Edited October 16, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[AegidiusF]

il y a 5 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

You speak very confidently about something you have no knowledge of and do not understand.

Garuda's abilities *do* deal weapon damage. So do some other abilities, Oberon's Smite, Wisp's Breach Surge, Shuriken too.

My friend, I'm just repeating something the game itself says : Garuda's passive works for weapons and abilities. If it's not working, it is a glitch and must be fixed.

That's why I said that it should work and it works at least on some abilities. 

Saying that it doesn't work for abilities is wrong, no matter the reason. 

If your knowledge of the game is better than the the knowledge the devs, who wrote the in game information, have about their own game, you should replace them.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the official information about Thermal Sunder.