Shroud of Dynar + Wrathful Advance Interaction

[YikersDikers]

I subsumed Wrathful Advance onto my Voruna and there is an interaction bug with the 2 abilities. 

So when Voruna uses her 1, she gives 100% crit chance to her weapons that have below 100% total crit chance. Wrathful advance, with my build, gives 309% crit chance, guaranteed red crits. If I use Shroud and then WA, I can only yellow crit with my melee weapon. Regardless of blood rush/gladiator mods or Arcane Avenger. 

But if use WA and THEN Shroud, it works as intended, giving me the full 309% crit chance and the bonuses of Shroud. 

[(PSN)EntityPendragon]

Btw you get 100% status chance (Unmodded I think), not crit chance from shroud of dynar. You do get a nasty crit damage multiplier though, on top of guaranteed slash on every hit with the buff active. I did notice something odd with the Wrathful advance ability, as it is inconsistent by itself.

[quxier]

26 minutes ago, (PSN)EntityPendragon said:

Btw you get 100% status chance (Unmodded I think), not crit chance from shroud of dynar. You do get a nasty crit damage multiplier though, on top of guaranteed slash on every hit with the buff active. I did notice something odd with the Wrathful advance ability, as it is inconsistent by itself.

Unless wiki is wrong you get 100% crit/status chance:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Shroud_of_Dynar

+2x flat crit damage of course

[Birdframe_Prime]

Yeah, I don't think this is a bug. The buff from Advance isn't possible to apply when you use Shroud first. Using Shroud first literally prevents the buff, because it's setting a weapon that has 'less than 100%' crit chance to be 100%. Shroud is not buffing it by a set percentage, like Advance does. It's just making it that value.

Using Advance first, however, buffs the weapon to be more than 100%, so Shroud can't prevent it from happening, and because the crit chance is 'above 100%' when you cast Shroud, the conditions are met and it doesn't prevent your buff.

[(PSN)EntityPendragon]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

Unless wiki is wrong you get 100% crit/status chance:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Shroud_of_Dynar

+2x flat crit damage of course

The wiki is right, as per testing just now. 

There is literally 0 mention of any crit chance in shroud of dynar in game.

 

I am mildly annoyed at finding out about this now of all times, especially with how long I have used Voruna.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, (PSN)EntityPendragon said:

The wiki is right, as per testing just now. 

There is literally 0 mention of any crit chance in shroud of dynar in game.

 

I am mildly annoyed at finding out about this now of all times, especially with how long I have used Voruna.

Voruna has a bunch of weird stuff IIRC.  It's probably worth checking out Aznvasion's video on her quirks.

[(PSN)EntityPendragon]

26 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Voruna has a bunch of weird stuff IIRC.  It's probably worth checking out Aznvasion's video on her quirks.

Noted, thanks

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Voruna has a bunch of weird stuff IIRC.

Very much so. For example, the way that her 4's way of applying Bleed procs doesn't seem to have any interaction with how her other abilities apply status, or how they spread status... The damage from the ability benefits from Shroud of Dynar, but... there's some very strange interactions there.

[YikersDikers]

20 hours ago, (PSN)EntityPendragon said:

Btw you get 100% status chance (Unmodded I think), not crit chance from shroud of dynar. You do get a nasty crit damage multiplier though, on top of guaranteed slash on every hit with the buff active. I did notice something odd with the Wrathful advance ability, as it is inconsistent by itself.

Shroud of Dynar gives guaranteed Crits and Status (+100%) to melee weapons that don't already achieve it. So a melee weapon with 103% crit chance, won't get the crit chance buff from Dynar. 

 

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, I don't think this is a bug. The buff from Advance isn't possible to apply when you use Shroud first. Using Shroud first literally prevents the buff, because it's setting a weapon that has 'less than 100%' crit chance to be 100%. Shroud is not buffing it by a set percentage, like Advance does. It's just making it that value.

Using Advance first, however, buffs the weapon to be more than 100%, so Shroud can't prevent it from happening, and because the crit chance is 'above 100%' when you cast Shroud, the conditions are met and it doesn't prevent your buff.

The Bug I am talking about, is that when I couple the 2 buffs together, regardless of my 12x combo and stacked Blood Rush and Gladiator mods on my melee, Shroud of Dynar forces me to yellow crit. This is consistent across all melee weapons.

Like you said you can fix it by casting advance first, but the bug is more the removal of all extra crit chance from both WA and mods. 

12 hours ago, (PSN)EntityPendragon said:

The wiki is right, as per testing just now. 

There is literally 0 mention of any crit chance in shroud of dynar in game.

 

I am mildly annoyed at finding out about this now of all times, especially with how long I have used Voruna.

Voruna is an amazing melee frame. The fact that shroud gives guaranteed Critical Slash procs on top of, potentially, viral procs is huge, even better with the FLAT crit damage boost too.

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Very much so. For example, the way that her 4's way of applying Bleed procs doesn't seem to have any interaction with how her other abilities apply status, or how they spread status... The damage from the ability benefits from Shroud of Dynar, but... there's some very strange interactions there.

They could just make it an pseudo exalted weapon, and have it count as melee attacks. 

 

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Voruna has a bunch of weird stuff IIRC.  It's probably worth checking out Aznvasion's video on her quirks.

Yes, just like the reason enemies die in one shot to the spread damage of FoR, is because they take the bleed damage from slash procs as the new base damage for the 10 slash proc, which increases the bleed damage on them. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, YikersDikers said:

The Bug I am talking about, is that when I couple the 2 buffs together, regardless of my 12x combo and stacked Blood Rush and Gladiator mods on my melee, Shroud of Dynar forces me to yellow crit. This is consistent across all melee weapons.

Like you said you can fix it by casting advance first, but the bug is more the removal of all extra crit chance from both WA and mods.

Yeah, that's two different things.

On the case of the Mods, where it's taking the weapon's Crit Chance and using that to force only 100% Chance despite it having the Conditional effects; that's definitely a bug, we can test and report that.

I'm guessing that the Ability, is working off the Crit Chance of the weapon without the Conditional effects. That's probably (based on what I know of the game from nine years of hearing DE explain their known bugs and bug-fixes) a case where the Ability just takes into account the state of the weapon from the base mods you have equipped, and isn't correctly snap-shotting the Conditional effects when you cast. It's not... how should I put this... It's not 'detecting' the Conditional effects from the mods, so it's only seeing the regular Crit Chance in order to set it to 100%.

We'll see how that goes in testing, and then in reporting.

In the case of Wrathful Advance, if you're casting it after Shroud, then Shroud has already set the Chance to 100% and no higher or lower, it's an override of the actual Crit Chance, so Advance can't buff your Chance further. Don't think of this function as a 'flat' Crit Chance buff, it's a direct override of whatever the weapon has, mods or not, and that's why it can't be affected by Advance once you've cast it.

That's probably an 'intended' interaction, when it comes down to it, whether we like that or not. Couple that with the bug of not seeing the Conditional effects, then (of course) neither would work, both would be discounted.

Casting Advance first is probably 'fixing' it by giving the game an ability-modded Chance to work with, rather than the Conditional one. Since the source is also an Ability, then Shroud can 'detect' it.

...

So yeah, I think we can get a fix for the Conditional mods, that's something that sounds un-intended to me. Fixing that will almost certainly also fix the knock-on problem of having the Conditional Mods active and then the order of Shroud and Advance casting. Because if the Conditional mods give you a greater than 100% Crit Chance, then casting Shroud won't override the Chance to 100%, so you'll be free to affect the Chance by using Wrathful Advance. 

I don't think we can get a fix for the order of casting Shroud and Advance from the other way, though. Reason being that without the Conditional Mods it's nearly impossible to get over 100% Crit Chance on most melee weapons from modding alone. In that case, casting Shroud will always override your Chance to 100%, negating the buff from Advance if you cast that afterwards. Casting Advance first will always buff your Chance to above 100% and so you will not trigger Shroud's override when you cast that afterwards.

Do you see?

One fix will probably solve your overall problems, but the other is something I don't think will be a fix, because it's working 'as intended'.

[YikersDikers]

@Birdframe_Prime

Wrathful Advance is coded the same way Arcane Avenger is coded, where it is a flat crit chance increase, after mods. Even walking into Nullifiers doesn't end the buff. I believe that this bug is coming from the fact that it's an ability that is granting the increased crit chance, so when Shroud is cast and it looks to see if the melee has 100%+ crit chance with mods, it then has a negative interaction with WA and rather than recognise that WA is granting additional crit chance, it instead reduces the melees total crit by the WA amount, effectively taking away 309% crit chance from the weapon, and then in turn sees that the melee now has 0%> crit chance and defaults to granting the 100% crit chance buff unintentionally. 

I believe the order when casting Shroud then WA goes like this;

Melee has 110% Crit Chance with 12x > Shroud is cast > Sees 100%+ crit > Doesn't apply buff > WA is cast (+100% Crit Chance) > Shroud is still active > Recognises melee has 110% crit > Melee shouldn't have additional crit chance  > Shroud removes the added crit chance from WA (+100% becomes -100%) > Melee now has 10% crit chance > Shroud now applies conditional =100% crit chance.

I think this issue lies with the fact that Shroud hasn't been tested with warframe abilities that grant crit chance that the Player themselves applies. I could be wrong but this is my understanding.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, YikersDikers said:

Wrathful Advance is coded the same way Arcane Avenger is coded, where it is a flat crit chance increase, after mods. Even walking into Nullifiers doesn't end the buff.

Yeah that's fairly normal. The duration of the buff isn't an active drain, nor is it one that Nullifier bubbles are supposed to take into account.

2 hours ago, YikersDikers said:

I believe that this bug is coming from the fact that it's an ability that is granting the increased crit chance, so when Shroud is cast and it looks to see if the melee has 100%+ crit chance with mods, it then has a negative interaction with WA and rather than recognise that WA is granting additional crit chance, it instead reduces the melees total crit by the WA amount, effectively taking away 309% crit chance from the weapon, and then in turn sees that the melee now has 0%> crit chance and defaults to granting the 100% crit chance buff unintentionally.

I don't believe that's how Shroud works.

Shroud should calculate and apply its buffs from the hit that 'breaks' Shroud's invisibility. This should mean that a 12x Combo would apply correctly and also that WA would be able to 'snapshot' this state and apply it when you cast the ability (just like it snapshots your combo state for damage on the Heavy Attack it triggers).

I think there's a basic incompatibility here because of the way that Advance does the exact same thing. Casting it is supposed to take your current state and apply the buff on the Heavy Attack it causes.

If you cast Advance first, it's a buff that's in place and allows Shroud to 'detect' it and not apply its own crit chance changes.

If you cast Advance second, Shroud is already in effect, as the buff it causes is dependent on you being in the Shrouded state. Shroud is literally preventing the Crit Chance from Advance applying at all.

Here's a test:

Build up a 12x combo on a Melee weapon that can reach guaranteed Red Crits instead of guaranteed Yellow. For the test I would recommend the Fragor Prime as it's got a base 40%, so using regular True Steel gets you to 88% before Conditional effects, but adding Blood Rush gets you to over 300%.

Test the order of Shroud first, Advance second. If your theory is correct, the negative reaction will remove all the Crit granted by Advance and guarantee Yellow the whole way. If mine is correct you'll see no difference because it's preventing Advances effects; importantly because Advance isn't kicking in, you should see the exact same damage numbers. Advance would kick up to a higher Crit Multiplier level, so you'd get higher damage numbers if this interaction didn't exist.

Same again with a massively higher base Crit Chance by replacing True Steel with Sacrificial Steel, giving it 128% Chance before Conditionals and 392% with Blood Rush on top of that. (Over 400% with Gladiator Rush, too, but let's not over-egg this, leave it off for the test).

If your theory is correct, this same weapon will see only Yellow Crits because it's removing Advance's buff entirely and setting it to 100% with Shroud. If mine is correct, you'll either see no difference because it's preventing Advance, or you'll get higher damage numbers on the Red Crits because the 'before Conditionals' crit chance will be over 100% and so Shroud doesn't prevent Advance from happening.

Should be easy enough, I would like to hear what testing this yourself turns up. Scientific method ftw ^^

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

The interaction is fairly straightforward.
As you cast Shroud of Dynar, it does the following:

1. Shroud of Dynar looks at your melee Crit Chance then applies this logic this logic:
   1. If Crit Chance is less than 100%, Shroud sets it to 100% Crit Chance.
   2. If Crit Chance is greater than or equal to 100%, Shroud does not change it.
2. Shroud of Dynar then locks your melee Crit Chance. Your melee Crit Chance will remain unchanged as long as Shroud of Dynar is active, even if conditional critical chance buffs expire, or if new ones are applied.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2023-07-17 at 9:18 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

The interaction is fairly straightforward.

It is, until you introduce something that OP noted:

If conditional Crit Chance mods are active, such as Blood Rush, giving you over 100%, Shroud of Dynar activation takes effect and obviously locks your Crit Chance until the end of the ability, but then if you break the ability using Wrathful Advance (the Heavy Attack breaks the invis and applies the crit from Shroud to your attack) you apparently don't get the bonus from the Conditional mods or from Advance, just Shroud's guaranteed 100% as if the Conditional mods weren't active either.

This is why I suggested that OP actually test this with melee weapons that can reach guaranteed Red crits with their Conditionals. If there's a bug, they'll only get Yellows. If it's doing what you and I think it's doing (locking the Crit Chance and preventing Advance from changing it), then you'll still see Reds after breaking Shroud.

If that bug is real, it's definitely worth reporting, as a Wrathful Advance build on Voruna is pretty fun.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It is, until you introduce something that OP noted:

If conditional Crit Chance mods are active, such as Blood Rush, giving you over 100%, Shroud of Dynar activation takes effect and obviously locks your Crit Chance until the end of the ability, but then if you break the ability using Wrathful Advance (the Heavy Attack breaks the invis and applies the crit from Shroud to your attack) you apparently don't get the bonus from the Conditional mods or from Advance, just Shroud's guaranteed 100% as if the Conditional mods weren't active either.

You think I didn't test Wrathful Advance with Shroud? On a topic about Wrathful Advance's interaction with Shroud? Like seriously? You think I'm just making a blind statement?

Nothing changes about my statement. Wrathful Advance doesn't change any of the behavior outlined.

Edited July 20, 2023 by (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Nothing changes about my statement. Wrathful Advance doesn't change any of the behavior outlined.

Not even OP's statement that the specific casting order seems to disable Conditional Mods, even though we have tested proof that Conditional Mods are normally taken into account on Shroud?

I'm not claiming that you didn't test, I made the observation that your statements didn't take into account something in the thread that you may not have noticed.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Not even OP's statement that the specific casting order seems to disable Conditional Mods

It doesn't in my testing. Wrathful Advance is just a conditional crit buff, which I talked about here:

On 2023-07-17 at 4:18 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Your melee Crit Chance will remain unchanged as long as Shroud of Dynar is active, even if conditional critical chance buffs expire, or if new ones are applied.

 @YikersDikers can you provide some footage of the casting order disabling conditional Crit Chance mods / breaking the logic I outlined here

On 2023-07-17 at 4:18 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

As you cast Shroud of Dynar, it does the following:

1. Shroud of Dynar looks at your melee Crit Chance then applies this logic this logic:
   1. If Crit Chance is less than 100%, Shroud sets it to 100% Crit Chance.
   2. If Crit Chance is greater than or equal to 100%, Shroud does not change it.
2. Shroud of Dynar then locks your melee Crit Chance. Your melee Crit Chance will remain unchanged as long as Shroud of Dynar is active, even if conditional critical chance buffs expire, or if new ones are applied.

Here's my testing that indicates that casting order of Shroud of Dynar and Wrathful Advance does nothing to break that logic:

Galatine Prime is using Blood Rush / Primed Fury / Primed Reach / Amalgam Organ Shatter / Killing Blow / Body Count. At 12x Combo, Galatine Prime has 140.4% CC with Blood Rush. You can see that when casting Shroud of Dynar then Wrathful Advance that I can still orange crit, which shouldn't be possible if that casting order disabled conditional Crit Chance mods.

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

It doesn't in my testing.

See, that's perfect.

You answered the question, I'm absolutely happy.

If you scroll up, my original response was exactly what yours was (with my rambling), and the rest of the discussion was because OP brought up a new variable.

You've addressed it, by testing, which is what I was asking OP to do.

Thank you very much.