Some status effects and damagetypes changes I think would be good for more modding variety! EDIT: Also suggestions for enemy Defenses.

[Azamagon]

Getting straight to the point:

General

• If an enemy is killed by an attack which also would've procced a status effect, it now will apply the status. This most notably means AoE status-effects (like Electric) can now work better on lower levels as AoE damaging tools.
• Faction damage mods no longer double dips with elemental status damage; Currently, you get a faction bonus first on the initial hit, which buffs up the status damage once. Then, the status damage itself ALSO gets the faction bonus applied, making it apply twice. One of these should be removed, imo.

ENEMY DEFENSES:

Armor

• Enemy armor scaling now has a cap of, say, 2700 armor value, i.e. a maximum of 90% damage reduction. Of course, if need be, enemies with armor could have their health scaling be beefed up a bit to compensate.
  • This doesn't have to be the exact number to cap at, but I feel it is a potentially reasonable number to stop at. 

Shields

• Enemy shields will ALWAYS pause its shield regen for 3 seconds if they are damaged by direct damage (DoTs do NOT count). Magnetic procs extend this delay further, as normal.
• Bypassing enemy shieldgating can now be done on ANY weakspot, not only on headshots.
  • This means hitting MOAs in their "backpack" also counts to bypass their shieldgating.
• As will be mentioned on the Toxic element: Toxin damage (be it from regular damage or status damage) no longer bypasses shields, but it still bypasses shieldgating.
  • This would be true for both players and enemies alike.

Carapacial Tendons (shortname: Carapace)

• A new healthtype for Infested, given to ALL infested units, in front of their regular health. It is an ablative damagetype (just like shields), but has no "gating" mechanics whatsoever (so oneshotting Infested with high damage would function the same way just like now)
• However, when an Infested enemy loses all of its Carapace, it runs 40% faster, but deals 25% less melee damage. Use this to your advantage (read on Slash and its status changes, for example)
• Damagetypings (number can of course change):
  • More vulnerable to: Slash +50%, Fire +50%, Gas +50% and Blast +25%
  • More resistant to: Cold -50%, Electric -25%
• To keep up with only having 4 "healthtypes" per faction, it completely replaces the "Infested Flesh" healthtype. All units which had the "Infested Flesh" healthtype will get "Infested" instead.
• Viral does NOT amplify damage to Carapace.
• Mercy treshold DOES include amount of Carapace (basically, Carapace counts as being part of the enemy's healthbar for Mercy tresholds).
• The amount of Carapace added to an Infested unit has a similar amount of their main health removed. How much Carapace added and health reduced would need to be adjusted from enemy to enemy.
  • Those with Infested Flesh healthtype, for example, could have the vast majority of their health replaced with Carapace (making them basically the same as before, as the damagetypings of Infested Flesh and Carapace are very similar).

 

PHYSICAL DAMAGETYPES:

Impact

• In addition, its status also increases weakpoint/headshot damage by 15% + 5% per extra proc (Max 60%). This bonus stacks additively to their natural damage bonus on weakspots.
  • For example, if an enemy suffers 2x damage on headshots, it will suffer 2,6x damage on headshots if it has 10 Impact procs on it.
• Furthermore, when under the effect of Impact status, an enemy's entire body will be considered a weakspot!
  • Potentially - although this is likely a bit much power? - everything that counts as headshots (mods, arcanes, Incarnon charge up etc) could potentially now be working on ALL weakspots (not just headshots) - which would INCLUDE the "whole-body-as-a-weakspot" feature of Impact procs!
• This would fit well with the Corpus shield-bypassing on headshots (and now also all other weakspots, like MOA's "backpacks", as mentioned in the Shields section further up) This also gives this status some much needed offensive boost.

Puncture

• Instead of its current status effect, its procs now causes all damage dealt to the target to deal additional true damage, equal +8% + 3% per extra proc (max 35%). This also works for DoTs, including those that might already be present prior to the Puncture proc application.
• Fits well as the anti-armor damage type it is arguably supposed to be. Ought to make it a highly viable and valuable status-effect.

Slash

• Still works the same, but damage is reduced from 35% to 20% per tick.
• However, each tick deals more damage, the more the target has moved (including forced movement, like ragdolls etc). The max bonus damage you can get from the movement is +75% (which raises the damage of the tick from 20% to max 35%, which is the same damage as now). Note that this bonus is only for the next tick, not all of them. So if you want each tick to deal 35% damage, you're gonna have to move the target heavily and continuously.
• In addition, a bleeding target is now marked on the minimap.
• Now a bit less extreme overall, but now has a unique damage amplification via enemies moving around, particularly useful versus the Infested, but also against other melee units and synergizing with grouping abilities and ragdoll attacks.

SINGULAR ELEMENTS:

Cold

• In addition, this proc also increases physical damage (Slash, Puncture and Impact) by 30% + 10% per extra proc (Max 100% bonus). Impact gains 2x of this bonus.
• Furthermore, reaching 8 Cold procs freezes the target for 6 seconds. Once the target thaws out, it cannot be refrozen like this until at least 2 seconds have passed.
• This gives Cold some offensive power and further enhanced utility.

Toxin

• In addition, if an enemy suffers from at least 1 toxin-proc, 50% of all damage they deal (as soon as they attempt to attack, rather than as soon as they hit) is also dealt to themselves.
  • This effect is NOT applied on players with toxin-procs on them.
• Toxin damage (be it from regular damage or status damage) no longer bypasses shields, but it still bypasses shieldgating.
  • This would be true for both players and enemies alike.
• While Toxin is not all too weak, it has 0 utility against non-shielded enemies - and is now also quite a bit weaker against shielded targets due to not entirely bypassing shields. However, with the added self-damage bonus, it compensates both of those things, adding some general (and scaling) power to it, which also works particularly well with Radiation-procs and similar effects.

Electricity

• Damage (both its direct damage and its status damage) versus Alloy Armor reduced from -50% to -15%. Damage versus Ferrite Armor increased from 0% to +25%.
• While Electricity has a decent amount of effects going for it, it is a bit harshly weak against armor, most notably against Alloy Armor.

Heat

• No longer reduces armor
• No longer has the "heat inherit" mechanic - each heat proc added is calculated on their own merit, rather than from the very first heat-proc. Note that this is further nerfed with the suggested removal of Faction damage double dipping
• With enemy armor now having a cap, the armor reduction effect should no longer really be needed. The heat inherit effect is also a bit of an oddball mechanic, which feels quite unneeded.

Void

• In addition, this status effect can now stack up to 5x. Each proc temporarilly reduces the enemy's level by 2, and each status stack lasts 3 seconds (same duration as the bullet attractor effect)
  • An enemy's levels can't be reduced below 1, of course.
• Note: The bullet attractor effect remains identical regardless of how many Void procs the enemy had on them.

COMBINED ELEMENTS:

Magnetic

• Damage versus Ferrite armor is increased to +50% (up from +0%) and versus Alloy armor to 0% (up from -50%). However, damage versus Cloned Flesh is reduced to -25% (from +0%).
  • Note: These changes are about its damage type - it has nothing to do with its status effects.
• Its status procs now also slows down the target's movement speed (but not attack speed) by 30% + 10% per extra proc (max 100% slow).
• Furthermore, its status effect also causes other enemies near the magnetized target to be gently pulled towards the magnetized target. Pull strength and radius scales with number of procs: 55% strength with one proc, +5% strength per extra proc (max 100% pull strength). 4,3 meters at base, +0,3 meters per extra proc (max 7 meters).
• With these additions, Magnetic is no longer as weak against armored targets, and has more utility, making it more than just an anti-shield element. While it has no direct offensive power against non-shielded enemies, grouping up enemies is a very powerful utility.

Gas

• Similar to Electricity, Heat and Toxin, Gas now also has a bonus to its tick-damage based on added Gas (i.e. Heat + Toxin) damage mods, but only 50% of it.
• Radius is now always a set 6 meter radius, and no longer scales with amount of status-procs.
• Can now apply more than 10 procs, just like other DoTs.
• With these changes, the AoE damage potential of Gas would likely make this element a lot more valued.

Blast

• Now has max 8 status procs, just like Cold, and duration is now 10 seconds each, up from 6. Accuracy reduction is rescaled to 34% + 8% per additional proc (Raising max accuracy reduction from 75% to 90%).
• If a target gets 8 procs on them, they are also blinded and deafened for 6 seconds. Once they regain vision and hearing, they cannot be blinded and deafened by Blast-procs again until at least 2 seconds have passed.
• Furthermore, if the blast-proccing attack is from a non-radial damage source, the blast status adds an explosion on the target! Damage is Blast-type, with damage equal to 75% of modded damage (similar to how other status damage works), dealt in a 5 meter radius, with 50% damage falloff.
• This ought to increase both the defensive and offensive uses for Blast.

Radiation

• In addition, the damage between enemies fighting each other with Radiation-procs is increased in an additional way:
  • Enemies both deal and take damage with 15% + 5% less damagetype resistance (such as Cold having -25% damage versus Fossilized etc), for a max of 60% damagetype resistance reduction. Note, this resistance is ONLY for enemy friendly firing one another.
• This addition would make the friendly fire mechanic a bit more deadly overall.

Corrosive

• Armor reduction scaling changed to 36% + 6% per extra proc for a total of 90% reduction (from 26% + 6% and a total of 80%).
• In addition, its status also makes the target more vulnerable to all sorts of AoE and AoE-like damage sources: 
  • Radial / AoE damage deals 15% (+5% per extra proc) more damage (max 60% bonus).
  • Punchthrough costs 36% (+6% per extra proc) less punchthrough distance to pass through the target (max 90% punchthrough distance cost reduction).
  • Followthrough is reduced by 36% (+6% per extra proc) less when passing through the target (max 90% followthrough loss reduction).
• This gives Corrosive a use even against unarmored targets, although it still is arguably a somewhat niched benefit.

Viral

• Reduced to 50% + 15% damage amp, (max 185% bonus), from current 100% + 25% and max 325% bonus.
• Viral is simply too effective, even on its own, so I feel a nerf like this is definitely warranted.

-----------------------------------

TL;DR: Some nerfs to slash, heat and viral, while most of the other damage/status types get buffs (mostly offense-boosting additions).

Huge disclaimer: Most of this might still seem like an overall pretty huge buff to players. However, imo, a lot of other stuff in our arsenal could need toning down numerically (like raw damage mods/arcanes, critdamage mods and a few other things like that) - so please have that in mind.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Azamagon

[Zaghyr]

Really cool ideas here. I've been working on Status effects myself and I've taken a similar approach in some areas, especially the idea of Status effects gaining a bonus effect at a certain number of stacks. I think its something that definitely needs to be part of the Statuses to really set builds apart from eachother and make full Status builds their own style with their own benefits. I'm not convinced tho that IPS effects should directly counter the main defense types, Their damage type can still be better against them, like Impact vs Shields, Puncture vs Armor etc, but their status effects probably shouldn't have a direct influence on those defense types, and that kind of countering should be left up to Viral/Corrosive/Magnetic. I'm more on the side that IPS effects should be a general counter to big beefy guys. Impact status increases Parazon threshold, Puncture helps deal with Overguard and weakpoints, and Slash helps with both.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2023-07-15 at 4:58 PM, Azamagon said:

General - If an enemy is killed by an attack which also would've procced a status effect, it now will apply the status. This most notably means AoE status-effects (like Gas and Electric) can now work better on lower levels as AoE damaging tools.

This already happens with gas.

On 2023-07-15 at 4:58 PM, Azamagon said:

Slash

I really don't think a nerf to bleed procs is needed.  The problem is Viral, which you addressed, and the weakness of some other options versus high level armor--at least partly addressed.  Although armor scaling is the bigger issue, but outside the scope of the thread.

On 2023-07-15 at 4:58 PM, Azamagon said:

Toxin

I don't think Toxin needs a boost exactly.  Unless you're trying to bring it up to the level of Heat, which would be a mistake IMO.  Rather than nerfing Heat a bit.

I'll also point out that you probably don't want the new effect to apply to enemy Toxin procs. :P

On 2023-07-15 at 4:58 PM, Azamagon said:

Electricity

Oh, man this would be fun for me.  Buuuut...I don't think it's a great idea.  Electricity has the normal range of bonuses and resistances, and reducing its penalties versus armor without making other adjustments would disrupt that.  I'd suggest keeping the numbers balanced, or maybe better yet, keep its resistance profile the same but improve it in some other way.  Having it persist on kill is a significant buff already, so maybe not much more is needed.

I like most of your other changes a lot, without thinking about the numbers much.  Corrosive, Cold, Blast, and Magnetic look really fun.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[Azamagon]

10 hours ago, Zaghyr said:

1) Really cool ideas here. I've been working on Status effects myself and I've taken a similar approach in some areas, especially the idea of Status effects gaining a bonus effect at a certain number of stacks. I think its something that definitely needs to be part of the Statuses to really set builds apart from eachother and make full Status builds their own style with their own benefits.

2) I'm not convinced tho that IPS effects should directly counter the main defense types, Their damage type can still be better against them, like Impact vs Shields, Puncture vs Armor etc, but their status effects probably shouldn't have a direct influence on those defense types, and that kind of countering should be left up to Viral/Corrosive/Magnetic. I'm more on the side that IPS effects should be a general counter to big beefy guys. Impact status increases Parazon threshold, Puncture helps deal with Overguard and weakpoints, and Slash helps with both.

1) Yup, getting extra bonuses on full stacks for some elements not only make certain elements more unique from the others, I also thought it was a cool way to improve their potency without having to make the regular first few stacks all too powerful, which some weapons certainly don't need. In the case of Blast for example, I didn't really want to make the singular Blast status effects too powerful due to weapons like Kuva Zarr and Bramma. Since the blind+deafening effect only takes effect on max stacks, and due to how slowly those weapons apply Blast to individual targets, there is no risk of making them too good even with that added CC. Also, by making the Blast status explosive bonus only take place on Blast status from non-radial damage sources, its damage-boosting potency for those weapons won't be buffed at all - while still helping to make the generally weaker single target weapons stronger. Win-win, imo.

2) The things is, the IPS status effects would still be useful versus all factions, just better/worse against certain factions:

• Impact weakpoint damage bonus = Most potent versus Corpus due to their shield effects, still good against Grineer, but a bit meager versus Infested. But it works against all of them nontheless.
• Puncture true damage bonus = Most potent versus Grineer due to helping bypassing armor, while still ok against the other two factions. But it works against all of them nontheless.
• Slash bleed damage enhanced from movement = Very potent versus Infested due to their melee nature making them move more, very potent versus Grineer due to ignoring armor, while somewhat weak against Corpus. But it works against all of them nontheless.

Magnetic and Corrosive is still the more "hyperspecialized" bonuses though, with more niched all-faction sidebonuses - so quite different still from what I suggested for IPS

And sidenote: I would personaly hate if Puncture just became an anti-Overguard status. It feels... bandaidy? I just want Puncture to become a good and generally useful status for once, not a niched one.

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

1) This already happens with gas.

2) I really don't think a nerf to bleed procs is needed.  The problem is Viral, which you addressed, and the weakness of some other options versus high level armor--at least partly addressed.  Although armor scaling is the bigger issue, but outside the scope of the thread.

3) I don't think Toxin needs a boost exactly.  Unless you're trying to bring it up to the level of Heat, which would be a mistake IMO.  Rather than nerfing Heat a bit.

I'll also point out that you probably don't want the new effect to apply to enemy Toxin procs. :P

4) Oh, man this would be fun for me.  Buuuut...I don't think it's a great idea.  Electricity has the normal range of bonuses and resistances, and reducing its penalties versus armor without making other adjustments would disrupt that.  I'd suggest keeping the numbers balanced, or maybe better yet, keep its resistance profile the same but improve it in some other way.

5) Having it persist on kill is a significant buff already, so maybe not much more is needed.

6) I like most of your other changes a lot, without thinking about the numbers much.  Corrosive, Cold, Blast, and Magnetic look really fun.

1) Really? I know that its gas-cloud lingers on the target if it dies - but are you sure the Gas-cloud lingers if the target dies from a singular attack, which also happens to proc Gas? If so, that's cool, I'll have to double check that!

2) Sure you didn't get that flipped around? To be honest, I think slash is the element that needs nerfing the most. If you had two identical guns, but one was purely proccing slash, and the other purely proccing viral, I would find it very hard to believe that the viral-proccing one would be stronger. While Viral's 4,25x damage multiplier is certainly (too) strong, slash ignoring armor gets far more potent the higher up you go in enemy levels.

3) I just feel Toxin is "empty" for a lack of a better word. Sure, it has the anti-shields effect, but I dunno, I think it's missing something. And I don't think Heat needs a nerf to be honest.

Also - yeah, haha, I'd definitely NOT want this self-damaging effect added to Toxin-procs applied to players :P

4) Huh, you really think that'd be such a big issue? Anything special in mind that makes you think that way? You're perhaps thinking of something like Vauban's Tesla with its augment? Cuz as far as I know, you'd still need some armorstrip (or similar) effect to actually handle high level armored targets.

5) I didn't suggest for the status to persist after kill, though? What I meant was to have the status effect APPLY on the target in the first place, even if you're killing the enemy with that shot. Its mostly meant to make Gas/Elecricity have a bit more of a use for aiding with AoE-clear even on lower level enemies (not just mid-level ones).

6) Yeah, the numbers aren't the main point, that's just an approximate for a "somewhat how powerful it maybe should be?" kind of thing. Glad you like those suggestions! :)

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

1) Really? I know that its gas-cloud lingers on the target if it dies - but are you sure the Gas-cloud lingers if the target dies from a singular attack, which also happens to proc Gas?

I feel like maybe I'm missing some nuance in what you're saying, but yeah?  If I kill a target with a  Gas Vulkar and spawn another immediately,  the second target dies too.

 

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

2) Sure you didn't get that flipped around? To be honest, I think slash is the element that needs nerfing the most.

Not certain, but pretty sure, yes.  If nothing else, the fact that not all targets have armor, and the ready availability of armor strip makes this true, I think.  Everything has health.

Without armor, bleeds are just a dot.  Slower than direct damage, like all dots.  It's got decent bonuses against health, but only does 35% base damage instead of 50%, and unlike the the elemental dots other than Gas, doesn't benefit from its damage type.  It  doesn't have CC like Heat and Electricity, and no radial damage or headshot capability like Electric and Gas.  And unlike Toxin as a damage type, Slash doesn't bypass a defense innately.

I don't mean to imply that Viral is a bigger problem than armor scaling though.

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Huh, you really think that'd be such a big issue? Anything special in mind that makes you think that way? You're perhaps thinking of something like Vauban's Tesla with its augment? Cuz as far as I know, you'd still need some armorstrip (or similar) effect to actually handle high level armored targets.

I'm thinking about how effective Electric can be against low level armor already, and how drastically reducing its penalty against one armor type and giving it an actual bonus against the most common one would accentuate this. 

Bigger picture, I would like armor scaling reduced a lot anyway.

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I didn't suggest for the status to persist after kill, though? What I meant was to have the status effect APPLY on the target in the first place, even if you're killing the enemy with that shot. Its mostly meant to make Gas/Elecricity have a bit more of a use for aiding with AoE-clear even on lower level enemies (not just mid-level ones).

I don't understand the distinction you're making here about persisting vs applying.  Gas procs apply and what I would call "persist" even on a one hit kill. Electric procs don't.

edit:

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I just feel Toxin is "empty" for a lack of a better word. Sure, it has the anti-shields effect, but I dunno, I think it's missing something. And I don't think Heat needs a nerf to be honest.

I guess I can see your point about Toxin.  I'd really like the innate shield bypass from the damage type (not the proc) removed in the long term, in which case I can see a bigger need for it getting some more juice somewhere else.

Heat is just a clear case of a power creeped status.  Just too much stuff bundled into on proc: damage, armor strip, CC, duration stacking, and inherit hijinks, easy combination with Viral or Corrosive,  combined with a pretty favorable damage profile.

Some of that picture would change with your proposals.  The cost of losing out on Cold, Gas, and Blast would be something people would actually think about some, and Viral Heat wouldn't be such a killer combo.  But I still think it's got too much power. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[Zaghyr]

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

1) Yup, getting extra bonuses on full stacks for some elements not only make certain elements more unique from the others, I also thought it was a cool way to improve their potency without having to make the regular first few stacks all too powerful, which some weapons certainly don't need. In the case of Blast for example, I didn't really want to make the singular Blast status effects too powerful due to weapons like Kuva Zarr and Bramma. Since the blind+deafening effect only takes effect on max stacks, and due to how slowly those weapons apply Blast to individual targets, there is no risk of making them too good even with that added CC. Also, by making the Blast status explosive bonus only take place on Blast status from non-radial damage sources, its damage-boosting potency for those weapons won't be buffed at all - while still helping to make the generally weaker single target weapons stronger. Win-win, imo.

2) The things is, the IPS status effects would still be useful versus all factions, just better/worse against certain factions:

• Impact weakpoint damage bonus = Most potent versus Corpus due to their shield effects, still good against Grineer, but a bit meager versus Infested. But it works against all of them nontheless.
• Puncture true damage bonus = Most potent versus Grineer due to helping bypassing armor, while still ok against the other two factions. But it works against all of them nontheless.
• Slash bleed damage enhanced from movement = Very potent versus Infested due to their melee nature making them move more, very potent versus Grineer due to ignoring armor, while somewhat weak against Corpus. But it works against all of them nontheless.

Magnetic and Corrosive is still the more "hyperspecialized" bonuses though, with more niched all-faction sidebonuses - so quite different still from what I suggested for IPS

And sidenote: I would personaly hate if Puncture just became an anti-Overguard status. It feels... bandaidy? I just want Puncture to become a good and generally useful status for once, not a niched one.

That's kind of my take on Blast as well. I would prefer the base Status Effect, in addition to starting the inaccuracy debuff (which should be for guns AND melee), creates a small-ish (like Laetum Incarnon size) explosion at the first point of impact that deals a % of your modified weapon damage to enemies around the initial target. This damage would not scale with how much damage was actually dealt but instead a % of the total damage value listed on the weapon. If its only a radial on the point of impact it makes the explosion pretty much worthless on most AOE weapons due to radius differences but extremely good on high RPM single target weapons. The main target would not get damaged by the explosion but everyone within range will.

Idk, I still think that specialized counters for HP, Armor, Shields should be left to the 3 combined elements. I also think weakpoint damage being on Impact is a mistake. In terms of gameplay, stagger and hitting weakpoints are incompatible with eachother, you would just keep staggering the target and making it harder to actually hit the weakpoint, which is part of the reason I think it should be on Puncture. If Puncture is not an anti-armor status (which I think is the correct direction), then weak-point damage is a good alternative, and I think makes more sense thematically. Mentally I can justify Puncture having the damage reduction if I think of it like puncturing pressure points for energy channels in the body. I don't think its bandaidy for Puncture to increase Damage to Overgaurd personally, it makes some gameplay and thematic sense to me, but I'm also considering if Gas damage should just bypass Overguard like Toxin does for Shields.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

3 hours ago, Zaghyr said:

Idk, I still think that specialized counters for HP, Armor, Shields should be left to the 3 combined elements. I also think weakpoint damage being on Impact is a mistake. In terms of gameplay, stagger and hitting weakpoints are incompatible with eachother, you would just keep staggering the target and making it harder to actually hit the weakpoint, which is part of the reason I think it should be on Puncture. If Puncture is not an anti-armor status (which I think is the correct direction), then weak-point damage is a good alternative, and I think makes more sense thematically. Mentally I can justify Puncture having the damage reduction if I think of it like puncturing pressure points for energy channels in the body. I don't think its bandaidy for Puncture to increase Damage to Overgaurd personally, it makes some gameplay and thematic sense to me, but I'm also considering if Gas damage should just bypass Overguard like Toxin does for Shields.

+1 to the point on impact.

My 2 cents about Impact:

In addition to what impact already does, staggered enemies have their entire hitbox treated as "head". The issue of stagger animations making hitting weakspots harder is solved. This also gives Impact a mechanical advantage against Corpus as hits on the "head" ignore Shield Gating, while giving a decent bonus against all other factions and giving "headshot" bonus mods another use. 

+1 for Puncture buffing damage against Overguard

Throwaway idea for Puncture:

In addition to what puncture already does, weakened enemies have duration of all other procs except puncture refreshed and take +100% damage to health AND Overguard; this bonus is additive with Viral procs. In this way, Viral procs would have their value diluted in the same way Base Damage mods are nowadays giving a small reason to use Corrosive. One of the main reasons Viral kills Corrosive is that Viral provides its own unique multiplier that you can't get anywhere else while you can get 100% armor strip from anywhere nowadays, while Corrosive can't even get you that.

Also give some actually useful utility that many players consider mandatory on weaker damage types:

Idea for Cold:

In addition to what Cold already does, 50% chance to spawn small energy orb on proc with 3 second cooldown between spawns.

Idea for Magnetic:

In addition to what Magnetic already does, nearby enemies are pulled towards afflicted enemy. +5m radius on first proc, +0.5 on subsequent capping at 9.5m.

 

[Zaghyr]

54 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

In addition to what impact already does, staggered enemies have their entire hitbox treated as "head". The issue of stagger animations making hitting weakspots harder is solved. This also gives Impact a mechanical advantage against Corpus as hits on the "head" ignore Shield Gating, while giving a decent bonus against all other factions and giving "headshot" bonus mods another use. 

 

Rather than Impact affecting weakpoints, it would rather have the stagger effect have a chance to open enemies up for Finishers. Finishers are a relatively underused tool in the game and there could be some really neat gameplay around for mods/arcanes if it didn't happen so infrequently outside of stealth builds. 

 

57 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

In addition to what puncture already does, weakened enemies have duration of all other procs except puncture refreshed and take +100% damage to health AND Overguard; this bonus is additive with Viral procs. In this way, Viral procs would have their value diluted in the same way Base Damage mods are nowadays giving a small reason to use Corrosive. One of the main reasons Viral kills Corrosive is that Viral provides its own unique multiplier that you can't get anywhere else while you can get 100% armor strip from anywhere nowadays, while Corrosive can't even get you that.

If by what it already does you mean all of this AND its damage reduction debuff, then that would just result in a bloated status effect. Each effect should remain fairly distinct with minimal overlap imo. I would just prefer Puncture decrease enemy damage, and then amp your damage against their weakpoints and Overgaurd. Arguably having all 3 of these could be too much as well and in that case the Weakpoint Amp or Overguard Amp could be discarded.

Ultimately I think most of the status effects should remain fairly simple with some benefit for hitting a certain number of stacks. Any other effects that would make sense with these status effects would be better suited for Mods, which is something that could use some more improvement. Having mostly just a 90 and 60/60 of each element is fairly boring for modding. Especially when we could have more unique effects tied to the status effects when they are applied. Like a Melee Heat mod that grants Armor each time you attack a burning target, a Melee Slash mod that makes bleeding enemies more likely to drop Health Orbs, or a Primary Puncture mod that causes Puncture stacks to increase Punch-through for everyone hitting the target.

1 hour ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Also give some actually useful utility that many players consider mandatory on weaker damage types:

Idea for Cold:

In addition to what Cold already does, 50% chance to spawn small energy orb on proc with 3 second cooldown between spawns.

Idea for Magnetic:

In addition to what Magnetic already does, nearby enemies are pulled towards afflicted enemy. +5m radius on first proc, +0.5 on subsequent capping at 9.5m.

Like I mentioned above, any additional ideas that could fit would probably be better on new mods to encourage more build diversity rather than overloading each status effect. For Magnetic I think I mentioned it earlier, but my version of Magnetic does this same pulling effect, but only at 5 stacks and it doesn't scale.

The basic structure I think the Status Effects could follow is:

IPS

• Initial Status Effect
• Stacking bonus, up to 10 max

Elemental

• Initial Status Effect
• Stacking bonus, up to 10 max
• Bonus static effect while the target has at least 5 stacks

Each stacking bonus is what it is now where it scales part of the Initial effect. The bonus static effect would be like Magnetic pulling in nearby enemies, but it would not scale and would only be active while the target has 5 stacks. Some of my other 5 stack bonuses for other elements for example:

Cold - Enemies are frozen solid for 2 seconds.

Corrosive - Enemies leave a corrosive pool on death for 10 seconds that inflicts Corrosive each second.

Electric - The damage chain stuns all enemies hit in addition to the main target, but for half the duration.

Radiation - Eximus Auras benefit you and your allies instead of enemies.

[Azamagon]

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

1) I feel like maybe I'm missing some nuance in what you're saying, but yeah?  If I kill a target with a  Gas Vulkar and spawn another immediately,  the second target dies too.

+

I don't understand the distinction you're making here about persisting vs applying.  Gas procs apply and what I would call "persist" even on a one hit kill. Electric procs don't.

2) Not certain, but pretty sure, yes.  If nothing else, the fact that not all targets have armor, and the ready availability of armor strip makes this true, I think.  Everything has health.

Without armor, bleeds are just a dot.  Slower than direct damage, like all dots.  It's got decent bonuses against health, but only does 35% base damage instead of 50%, and unlike the the elemental dots other than Gas, doesn't benefit from its damage type.  It  doesn't have CC like Heat and Electricity, and no radial damage or headshot capability like Electric and Gas.  And unlike Toxin as a damage type, Slash doesn't bypass a defense innately.

I don't mean to imply that Viral is a bigger problem than armor scaling though.

3) I'm thinking about how effective Electric can be against low level armor already, and how drastically reducing its penalty against one armor type and giving it an actual bonus against the most common one would accentuate this. 

Bigger picture, I would like armor scaling reduced a lot anyway.

 

edit:

I guess I can see your point about Toxin.  I'd really like the innate shield bypass from the damage type (not the proc) removed in the long term, in which case I can see a bigger need for it getting some more juice somewhere else.

5) Heat is just a clear case of a power creeped status.  Just too much stuff bundled into on proc: damage, armor strip, CC, duration stacking, and inherit hijinks, easy combination with Viral or Corrosive,  combined with a pretty favorable damage profile.

Some of that picture would change with your proposals.  The cost of losing out on Cold, Gas, and Blast would be something people would actually think about some, and Viral Heat wouldn't be such a killer combo.  But I still think it's got too much power. 

 

1) Ok, if that's how it works, only Electric would need that change (and if Blast gets an explosion proc, it too). I will test some of this when I get home from work, this got me curious!

2) I guess we can summarize it as this:

Viral's high bonus is problematic, but enemy armor scaling is a bigger issue overall.

That is why I think Slash is currently (or rather, enemy armor) is the bigger issue. If enemy armor was fixed to not scale so crazily high though, yes, I'd agreed that Viral is the bigger issue of the two. If armor doesn't get a look at however, then I think Slash could go with a nerf as proposed.

I still like the mechanic of the "move and get hurt more" though, I think it's thematic and a fun way to make it more distinctly useful against most of the fastrunning melee Infested units.

After all, I tried to make the 3 physical procs have a little bit of a faction-bias (not as much as Magnetic/Corrosive though), so I'd still propose that. For example, if armor was addressed properly, I could see Slash being nerfed to like 25% per tick at base, but movement can increase it to 50%. Something like that.

3) *shrugs* Doesn't seem like a massive issue to me to be honest. 

Yes, armor is the bigger issue. Especially with the double dipping negative effect.

4) I actually agreed, I don't think Toxin straight up bypassing shields is all too healthy (for the same reason enemy armor scaling vs armor bypassing effects is unhealthy - just to a lesser scale). If anything, I'd just make Toxin bypass enemy shieldgating.

And also, I think in some ways enemy shields can be worse than enemy armor: If you don't have enough DPS (especially if combined with a slow reload), you can NEVER break some enemy's shields because they have constant shieldregen (without Shield Ospreys around, mind you). I think it should work like ours; If it's damaged, its regen should be paused for a little moment.

5) Hmm, yeah Heat's maybe a bit bloated. I feel the inherit effect and armor reduction could be removed, especially if enemy armor was addressed properly.

[Azamagon]

9 hours ago, Zaghyr said:

That's kind of my take on Blast as well. I would prefer the base Status Effect, in addition to starting the inaccuracy debuff (which should be for guns AND melee), creates a small-ish (like Laetum Incarnon size) explosion at the first point of impact that deals a % of your modified weapon damage to enemies around the initial target. This damage would not scale with how much damage was actually dealt but instead a % of the total damage value listed on the weapon. If its only a radial on the point of impact it makes the explosion pretty much worthless on most AOE weapons due to radius differences but extremely good on high RPM single target weapons. The main target would not get damaged by the explosion but everyone within range will.

Idk, I still think that specialized counters for HP, Armor, Shields should be left to the 3 combined elements. I also think weakpoint damage being on Impact is a mistake. In terms of gameplay, stagger and hitting weakpoints are incompatible with eachother, you would just keep staggering the target and making it harder to actually hit the weakpoint, which is part of the reason I think it should be on Puncture. If Puncture is not an anti-armor status (which I think is the correct direction), then weak-point damage is a good alternative, and I think makes more sense thematically. Mentally I can justify Puncture having the damage reduction if I think of it like puncturing pressure points for energy channels in the body. I don't think its bandaidy for Puncture to increase Damage to Overgaurd personally, it makes some gameplay and thematic sense to me, but I'm also considering if Gas damage should just bypass Overguard like Toxin does for Shields.

The problem with that Blast-explosion though, you have to remember that status effects are applied on targets, not on your weapon so to speak.

For example, if you have an explosive weapon, and hit a group of 5 enemies. All of them suffer a blast proc - which is placed on them individually. How would you calculate your added explosion damage? A 5 procs worth of damage explosion applied to the centre of the weapon's main explosion? If it would work like that, you'd be potentially favoring explosive weapons just as much as fastfiring single target weapons with slowfiring single target weapons having arguably the weakest application form - almost the opposite of what I'd like to do.

I guess we have to disagreed on IPS (and Puncture vs Overguard). They already have some faction-specific bonuses via their damagetypings, so I just wanted to push that a little bit more with their status effects. As for the weakpoint damage: I actually first (it's in my personal documents) also wanted Impact procs to make the whole enemy body into a weakspot, based on number of status procs. If you also hit their natural heads/weakspots, it would be boosted further. That way, it helps itself automatically For example:

If 10 Impact procs increases weakpoint damage by 60%, then an enemy struck in a regular bodypart would suffer 1,6x damage. If you hit them in the head, they would suffer 2,6x damage (as the Impact bonus would be an additive to the natural weakspots, not a multiplicative bonus - I think that's less potential to be overpowered like that).

That would also make it way more useful against Corpus, as @DealerOfAbsolutes pointed out. I know you don't like that, hehe, but I do :P

[Azamagon]

6 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

1) In addition to what impact already does, staggered enemies have their entire hitbox treated as "head". The issue of stagger animations making hitting weakspots harder is solved. This also gives Impact a mechanical advantage against Corpus as hits on the "head" ignore Shield Gating, while giving a decent bonus against all other factions and giving "headshot" bonus mods another use. 

2) Throwaway idea for Puncture:

In addition to what puncture already does, weakened enemies have duration of all other procs except puncture refreshed and take +100% damage to health AND Overguard; this bonus is additive with Viral procs. In this way, Viral procs would have their value diluted in the same way Base Damage mods are nowadays giving a small reason to use Corrosive. One of the main reasons Viral kills Corrosive is that Viral provides its own unique multiplier that you can't get anywhere else while you can get 100% armor strip from anywhere nowadays, while Corrosive can't even get you that.

Also give some actually useful utility that many players consider mandatory on weaker damage types:

Idea for Cold:

In addition to what Cold already does, 50% chance to spawn small energy orb on proc with 3 second cooldown between spawns.

Idea for Magnetic:

In addition to what Magnetic already does, nearby enemies are pulled towards afflicted enemy. +5m radius on first proc, +0.5 on subsequent capping at 9.5m.

 

1) I swear, I already had that in my proposal! I removed it for the fear of it probably being considered a bit too good. That said, mine was more tempered version; It would make the enemy body considered a weakspot, not outright the "head".

For example, if 10 Impact procs increases weakpoint damage by 60%, then an enemy struck in a regular bodypart would suffer 1,6x damage. If you hit them in the head, they would suffer 2,6x damage (as the Impact bonus would be an additive to the natural weakspots, not a multiplicative bonus - I think that's less potential to be overpowered like that).

I still think it would be nice if all "headshot triggers" (various mods, maybe Incarnon charging? etc) would benefit from hitting not just heads, but ANY weakpoint - including Impact-produced ones.

2) Not a fan of "status-ception". 

The viral-competition thing though, is not a bad idea though.

3) Cold - I think that's better suited as mods / ability effects, imo.

4) Magnetic - More or less already proposed in the original post. Note: Not the ragdoll type of pull, the gentler one a la Mag's Magnetize bubble.

[Azamagon]

New additions to the original post:

• Now also has a whole section speaking of changes to enemy defenses. Notably, an enemy armor cap and Infested now has a new defense over their health, named Carapace.
  • I didn't really want to talk about enemy defenses in this thread at first, but since it is so intertwined with damagetypes and status effects, I felt I had to add it.
• Faction mods no longer double dip on status damage.
• Toxin no longer bypasses shields, but rather bypasses shieldgating. This is true for toxin applied both to players and enemies.
• Impact now also causes the whole body to count as a weakspot. The suggested weakspot bonus is still applied to natural weakspots, so hitting natural weakspots is still stronger.
• Heat no longer has heat inherit or armor reduction.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Azamagon

[Traumtulpe]

On 2023-07-16 at 1:58 AM, Azamagon said:

Faction damage mods no longer double dips with elemental status damage; Currently, you get a faction bonus first on the initial hit, which buffs up the status damage once. Then, the status damage itself ALSO gets the faction bonus applied, making it apply twice. One of these should be removed, imo.

I'm not a fan of your suggestion, but this part in particular seems poorly thought out.

There are a total of 16 primed, rank 10, Baro exclusive faction mods. These mods represent an absolutely colossal investment in time and resources. You suggestion would make all of these mods worthless in an instant, as their effect on status damage is the sole reason to use them.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2023-07-15 at 4:58 PM, Azamagon said:

Faction damage mods no longer double dips with elemental status damage; Currently, you get a faction bonus first on the initial hit, which buffs up the status damage once. Then, the status damage itself ALSO gets the faction bonus applied, making it apply twice. One of these should be removed, imo.

Why though?  Generally speaking, I don't think status DoTs or faction mods are overpowered now.  Powerful, yes.  But the "time" part of DoTs is a substantial tradeoff versus instantaneous direct damage, especially in the post Eximus Reborn world of weaker CC.

If double dipping offends you intellectually, I'd suggest DoTs need to be buffed somewhat to compensate for its removal.  Or perhaps better albeit messier, general DoT bonus mods added that would be roughly equivalent to the double dip bonus you'd eliminate.

I'm still thinking about your other additions, but my first impression is they look promising.

[DrBorris]

Status stacking based on hits is bad. It is, in my opinion, the single most problematic 'core' system in the game. Every single other issue the game has with damage has some dependency on status not being trash, and status will always be actually impossible to balance as long as there is a mismatch of status stacking.

 

You know how melee is generally in a state of "slash or nothin," that's in no small part due to how dumb status is. This is a more complicated issue than "slash best", it is because other status effects imply aren't capable of being relevant on melee. Gas needs 10 stacks to get max AoE size? Cool, guess you need a minimum of 10 swings and perfect RNG. Slash doesn't care about stacks, it's value is relative to damage so it is always good no matter the context in which it procs. The same can't be said for most other status effects, and thus melee are not able to properly interact with status outside CO shenanigans (that require a primer).

 

It is nice to see that status is a very commonly brought up system that needs reworking, but not addressing the core imbalance in how status is applied will always lead to an unsatisfactory outcome. You may be able to balance all status effects on one archetype of weapon, but as long as that system responds drastically different between a sniper rifle, shotgun, automatic rifle, and massive sword there is going to be a trickle down of BS that breaks everything else.

I've been one to say "that's a nice overhaul, but be realistic," which reworks like this (that only tweak the existing system) aim for. However given the trickle down negative impacts of status's core mechanics I think this is one for the few systems that really "needs" to get a more foundational rework. Not only would it be a massive correction for weapon balance to not have to worry about a flow-chart of interactions when balancing a thing, it also serves as a foundation to make any future damage reworks far simpler.

 

I've thrown my hat in on this subject, but that concept has its own issues (that I think are far less impactful than status stacking). That concept had to do with status stacking as a function of damage where the effectiveness of a status effect was relative to the health of an enemy. "Stacking" happened simply by adding up those damage values (it is basically using DoT as the keystone for status balance), meaning status effectiveness was always a function of DPS with no preference towards how that DPS is applied. It's been almost three years since I've posted that and my opinions have certainly shifted since then, but the core conceit of status needing to be disconnected from hit rate is something I still strongly believe is needed for DE to make any progress with a status/damage rework.

/rant (about status)

 

But I'm not done yet...

If you think that take was hot, get ready for this; stupid armor scaling is good, actually.

Four years ago I'd agree that armor scaling was a stupid system that needed some major changes. But recently I've come around to armor as its role in the game has shifted, viewing armor as simply a function of EHP is no longer correct in my opinion as the ways we interact with armor have grown far beyond DPS. Armor has shifted into a mechanic to be overcome, a system that organically encourages you to interact with the mechanics of the game in order to get through. Armor stripping abilities aren't a band-aid, they're one of the gameplay-based solutions to a problem. Slash isn't necessarily the only way to get through an enemy, it is just a universal hammer that is almost always outclassed by more effort-intensive solutions.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the way we interact with armor is in a good state across the board, but at this point I would go so far as to say that it is better than the alternative. "Balancing" armor so enemies can be killed with just raw damage would make the moment-to-moment gameplay of SP (as SP is the only place where any of this matters) more boring, not less. Armor has become a system that encourages build-craft in a way that the game has never seen. Having to weave ability casts between your pew-pew may not be revolutionary, but it is more complex than the gunplay has ever been. Status priming encourages you to use your loadout to its fullest extent rather than only fire one gun ad-nauseam.

What makes armor as a mechanical barrier even more interesting is that it is basically a difficulty setting that has gameplay implications beyond "shoot them more". You can have two enemies with the same health value but different armor values that encourages you to interact with them differently. An enemy with five times the armor may take five times longer to kill with raw DPS, but if you engage with buildcraft/abilities you can reduce that down to the same TTK. This is the good kind of difficulty, isn't it? Where the game asks you to be tactful in your approach rather than say "just shoot them longer".

Again, it ain't perfect, armor stripping options are too far and few between, priming can still be clunky (on top of CO being forever buggy), and of course the actual status effects don't do much to make modding your weapon interesting (Viral/slash is best even when stripping). But as a foundation to move from, I think stupid Armor that you can't DPS through is one of the best ways to add more meaningful gameplay to the game.

Edited July 21, 2023 by DrBorris

[Azamagon]

On 2023-07-21 at 6:25 PM, Traumtulpe said:

I'm not a fan of your suggestion, but this part in particular seems poorly thought out.

There are a total of 16 primed, rank 10, Baro exclusive faction mods. These mods represent an absolutely colossal investment in time and resources. You suggestion would make all of these mods worthless in an instant, as their effect on status damage is the sole reason to use them.

"Making them worthless" is quite the exaggeration. A multiplier of 1,55x is not a bad deal - most of the 7th or 8th damage mod options offers far less of a boost than that due to natural diminishing returns. 

But nontheless, yeah, this nerf was maybe not needed - the point was to get rid of an unintuitive bonus, in favor of making status effects stronger on their own if needed instead. In fact, this hidden bonus feels unintended / like a programming oversight.

Maybe it could come alongside a buff to the faction mods? Like 42% for the base versions and 77% for the prime versions?

[Azamagon]

On 2023-07-21 at 7:14 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Why though?  Generally speaking, I don't think status DoTs or faction mods are overpowered now.  Powerful, yes.  But the "time" part of DoTs is a substantial tradeoff versus instantaneous direct damage, especially in the post Eximus Reborn world of weaker CC.

If double dipping offends you intellectually, I'd suggest DoTs need to be buffed somewhat to compensate for its removal.  Or perhaps better albeit messier, general DoT bonus mods added that would be roughly equivalent to the double dip bonus you'd eliminate.

I'm still thinking about your other additions, but my first impression is they look promising.

See my reply above.

Yes, beefing up DoTs could be a good counter-compensation - a status damage mod could definitely be interesting.

As for the other additions: Any thoughts on Carapace for the Infested?

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Maybe it could come alongside a buff to the faction mods? Like 42% for the base versions and 77% for the prime versions?

Maybe you didn't quite understand, these mods cost a total of 640.000 endo, 34.000.000 credits, 6400 ducats, and years of logging in for Baro. Any nerf at all to these mods in any way, shape, or form, is unacceptable.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Maybe it could come alongside a buff to the faction mods? Like 42% for the base versions and 77% for the prime versions?

I don't think upfront damage needs a buff at all.  Or that DoTs need a general nerf.  Why do you think so?

 

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Any thoughts on Carapace for the Infested?

I like it, although I thought it would change more.  If I understand it correctly, one could leave health classes the same but just add a general feature to infested where they only suffer 50% (for instance) of Viral's debuff and get the movement buff and melee damage debuff at 50% hp?  The 50% numbers being placeholders corresponding to proportion of Carapace you would have put in.

[Azamagon]

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Maybe you didn't quite understand, these mods cost a total of 640.000 endo, 34.000.000 credits, 6400 ducats, and years of logging in for Baro. Any nerf at all to these mods in any way, shape, or form, is unacceptable.

 

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't think upfront damage needs a buff at all.  Or that DoTs need a general nerf.  Why do you think so?

 

I like it, although I thought it would change more.  If I understand it correctly, one could leave health classes the same but just add a general feature to infested where they only suffer 50% (for instance) of Viral's debuff and get the movement buff and melee damage debuff at 50% hp?  The 50% numbers being placeholders corresponding to proportion of Carapace you would have put in.

Hmm i guess I'll strike out the faction damage changes then.

As for Carapace: Yeah I guess that have a somewhat similar effect. Although it wouldn't fully accomplish the occasional Viral-inefficiency I had in mind, nor would it seem as easy to distinguish UI-wise, and it would still have a lack of Infested-specific defense layer of sorts.

The Swarm Mutalist could also instead provide extra Carapace (instead of armor), on top of other possible interactions.

[Azamagon]

On 2023-07-22 at 12:19 AM, DrBorris said:

Status stacking based on hits is bad. It is, in my opinion, the single most problematic 'core' system in the game. Every single other issue the game has with damage has some dependency on status not being trash, and status will always be actually impossible to balance as long as there is a mismatch of status stacking.

 

You know how melee is generally in a state of "slash or nothin," that's in no small part due to how dumb status is. This is a more complicated issue than "slash best", it is because other status effects imply aren't capable of being relevant on melee. Gas needs 10 stacks to get max AoE size? Cool, guess you need a minimum of 10 swings and perfect RNG. Slash doesn't care about stacks, it's value is relative to damage so it is always good no matter the context in which it procs. The same can't be said for most other status effects, and thus melee are not able to properly interact with status outside CO shenanigans (that require a primer).

 

It is nice to see that status is a very commonly brought up system that needs reworking, but not addressing the core imbalance in how status is applied will always lead to an unsatisfactory outcome. You may be able to balance all status effects on one archetype of weapon, but as long as that system responds drastically different between a sniper rifle, shotgun, automatic rifle, and massive sword there is going to be a trickle down of BS that breaks everything else.

I've been one to say "that's a nice overhaul, but be realistic," which reworks like this (that only tweak the existing system) aim for. However given the trickle down negative impacts of status's core mechanics I think this is one for the few systems that really "needs" to get a more foundational rework. Not only would it be a massive correction for weapon balance to not have to worry about a flow-chart of interactions when balancing a thing, it also serves as a foundation to make any future damage reworks far simpler.

 

I've thrown my hat in on this subject, but that concept has its own issues (that I think are far less impactful than status stacking). That concept had to do with status stacking as a function of damage where the effectiveness of a status effect was relative to the health of an enemy. "Stacking" happened simply by adding up those damage values (it is basically using DoT as the keystone for status balance), meaning status effectiveness was always a function of DPS with no preference towards how that DPS is applied. It's been almost three years since I've posted that and my opinions have certainly shifted since then, but the core conceit of status needing to be disconnected from hit rate is something I still strongly believe is needed for DE to make any progress with a status/damage rework.

/rant (about status)

 

But I'm not done yet...

If you think that take was hot, get ready for this; stupid armor scaling is good, actually.

Four years ago I'd agree that armor scaling was a stupid system that needed some major changes. But recently I've come around to armor as its role in the game has shifted, viewing armor as simply a function of EHP is no longer correct in my opinion as the ways we interact with armor have grown far beyond DPS. Armor has shifted into a mechanic to be overcome, a system that organically encourages you to interact with the mechanics of the game in order to get through. Armor stripping abilities aren't a band-aid, they're one of the gameplay-based solutions to a problem. Slash isn't necessarily the only way to get through an enemy, it is just a universal hammer that is almost always outclassed by more effort-intensive solutions.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the way we interact with armor is in a good state across the board, but at this point I would go so far as to say that it is better than the alternative. "Balancing" armor so enemies can be killed with just raw damage would make the moment-to-moment gameplay of SP (as SP is the only place where any of this matters) more boring, not less. Armor has become a system that encourages build-craft in a way that the game has never seen. Having to weave ability casts between your pew-pew may not be revolutionary, but it is more complex than the gunplay has ever been. Status priming encourages you to use your loadout to its fullest extent rather than only fire one gun ad-nauseam.

What makes armor as a mechanical barrier even more interesting is that it is basically a difficulty setting that has gameplay implications beyond "shoot them more". You can have two enemies with the same health value but different armor values that encourages you to interact with them differently. An enemy with five times the armor may take five times longer to kill with raw DPS, but if you engage with buildcraft/abilities you can reduce that down to the same TTK. This is the good kind of difficulty, isn't it? Where the game asks you to be tactful in your approach rather than say "just shoot them longer".

Again, it ain't perfect, armor stripping options are too far and few between, priming can still be clunky (on top of CO being forever buggy), and of course the actual status effects don't do much to make modding your weapon interesting (Viral/slash is best even when stripping). But as a foundation to move from, I think stupid Armor that you can't DPS through is one of the best ways to add more meaningful gameplay to the game.

1) I skimmed through a bunch of your suggestions for status in the linked thread. It's a novel and interesting idea - but I disagreed with it for one simple (but major) reason:

Your system would further beef up the already most generally powerful weapons, ie the bursty AoE weapons, while the weapons that currently are somewhat saved by current status mechanics (ie rapidfire weapons) will be worse at status-application and thus overall weaker.

I actually quite like the current status-application system (surprisingly), despite it being asymmetrical across weapontypes etc. All I think is needed (beyond better status effects, as per the intent of this very thread) is for slow-firing non-aoe weapons to get higher base status chance, and/or that they get mildly better aoe-capabilities (like some innate punchthrough, for a example)

2) Well, let's just say I disagreed really hard in regards to armor. Yes, it is nice that armor is something to combat - but I think it has become excessive, hence why I think a cap on enemy armor (I suggested 2700 armor, aka 90% reduction, but that can change of course - it would probably be better if set even lower actually) is a good idea. You are still far more rewarded by using armor-stripping/ignoring stuff, but brute forcing it is still possible, if a bit tedious and time consuming.

It is also the reason why only Unairu is truly useable on higher levels of SP (very notably so in the Circuit), both as a damagedealer and the only school reliably self-rezzing with Last Gasp (maybe Madurai sometimes too, but falls off quite quickly).

And I'd like to try new strategies for once. The armor-combat meta has gotten real stale, at least for me.

[DrBorris]

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Your system would further beef up the already most generally powerful weapons, ie the bursty AoE weapons, while the weapons that currently are somewhat saved by current status mechanics (ie rapidfire weapons) will be worse at status-application and thus overall weaker.

But... the core of my suggestion is that status chance is a proper representation of how good at status a weapon is. If you want a good status weapon, give it a good status chance. The current state of status where a weapon has to be high fire rate to be good at status (that isn't a DoT) is boring. Tysis is pitched as a status gun but can't properly do the thing. I understand not wanting DPS to be the single stat to rule them all, but ignoring status chance as a modifier to a weapon's potential power would be like ignoring crit. A "fair" status system allows for status weapons to be more diverse and potentially allow DE to crank up the power of status (as they currently have to worry about hybrid weapons being the meta).

 

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

The armor-combat meta has gotten real stale, at least for me.

I mean, this is the first time the game has had a meta where the way to kill things is something other than "shoot them harder" or "CC them because we don't have to kill". And while there is something to be said for that simplicity, I feel like that will backfire if you're issue is that the current system feels stale. Our options are limited, I get feeling it is stale, but I think there is a lot more potential for interesting gameplay when embracing BS armor rather than reducing its effectiveness to the extent we can ignore it.

This is of course unless you're also talking about nuking the entire damage system, if you're going that far then 90% DR could be enough to allow for some variance, but you didn't mention anything like that in the OP. A full damage calc rework is also a much, much larger undertaking than even a major status rework like what I propose.

 

No status system will be perfect, Warframe is doing too any things for there to be a perfect shape to fit in the hole of damage type customization, but I strongly feel like the pros of a "fair" status system outweigh the cons. And I won't pretend I know the full answer, just a few days ago I had a pretty big shift in what I think would be the best route for physical status. It would at least feel a bit better to me if more people would acknowledge some of the weaknesses of hit-stacking when they spend the time to 'rework' status, I don't think it is fair to see it as a given that the status quo is best.

Edited July 24, 2023 by DrBorris