The Rhino buffs: I am concerned, as a hardcore Rhino main, and once a revenant lover.

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Back in the day pre rework wukongs defy ability was a channeled ability that literally made you invincible and healed a portion of health for a few seconds after receiving a fatal blow, this paired with rage made it impossible for him to die yet despite this he was still considered utter trash so much so in fact that he got a full on rework. Invulnerability is one of the most useless tings a warframe can offer yet at the same time is highly over exaggerated as this super op game breaking thing.

Whilst popularity may point to mechanics that are overpowered, it is not a requirement for a mechanic being overpowered.

Effectively permanent invulnerability is an ovepowered mechanic as it breaks the game by rendering fundamental mechanics used for balance, such as enemy damage output, moot. This in turn prevents the developer from being able to present content that challenges many players to the extent required to maintain interest, which leads to boredom, disengagement and players quitting the game.

Encouraged content being so easy that an OP mechanic is considered one of the most useless options a frame can have is problematic in itself (edit: video starts at relevant point).

 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

You fail to understand my point. My point is that the extreme cases of full on invulnerability are deemed worthless and are nearly unused yet people make such a big deal about the lesser 1.3 sec shield gate invulnerability and in this case the even lesser .5 secs of overgaurd gate and I just do not understand that. The only thing I can thing off being the reason for this is that shield gating has gained quite a lot of popularity and since people like to jump on the hate bandwagon for popular things we end up here. Lots of youtube guide popping up about "endgame" builds that involve exploiting shield gating (which btw the definition for exploit follows; make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)) however people seem to like to hard focus onto only a few key words like invulnerability or exploit and not look into it any further and instead make assumptions that only lead to further misunderstandings of how the mechanic actually works and now that misunderstanding is spreading to overgaurd. Like say people just over exaggerate whether its intentional or if its due to these misunderstandings.

Alright. The only reason players aren’t using shieldgating more though is because they have alternatives in the form of building for massive overkill with weapons and endless ability spam in general and also because your standard Warframe player doesn’t like too much effort to win a fight (though shieldgating isn’t exactly the epitome of skill). If those weren’t options, you can bet that players would be flocking to the tactic to ensure their victory because shieldgate abuse is a lot easier than having to play well.

There may be an element of overreaction sometimes, but they’re not exactly wrong when they call it an exploit

[Surbusken]

9 hours ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

do you mean Harrow? (in which case it's also about the full team immunity during the energy spikes)

Yeah my bad yes, that is what I was thinking of. I guess revenant has no role then lol?

[PR1D3]

21 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And also btw if full on invulnerability was so game breakingly broken op then frames like assimilate nyx or valkyr would be dominating the meta however they are not, in fact quite the opposite.

LMFAO OH GOD! I need a min. Holy S#&$. I just had a flashback to early WF days when Iron Skin straight up was invulnerability for a set duration and it was the meta.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Rhino is used by new players and they are actively pushed towards it so they can learn the game without dying so much on a level 40 planet.

(They obviously don't have arcanes so deaths mean more at that level).

This is a non issue and if revenant and Rhino didn't exist, there would still be many other ways to invincible the game while you play.

 

[(NSW)warfare3376]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Alright. The only reason players aren’t using shieldgating more though is because they have alternatives in the form of building for massive overkill with weapons and endless ability spam in general and also because your standard Warframe player doesn’t like too much effort to win a fight (though shieldgating isn’t exactly the epitome of skill). If those weren’t options, you can bet that players would be flocking to the tactic to ensure their victory because shieldgate abuse is a lot easier than having to play well.

There may be an element of overreaction sometimes, but they’re not exactly wrong when they call it an exploit

And what exactly is "playing well"? This game has become quite the horde shooter with hundreds of enemies surrounding you at all times so why is it so surprising that players are building super spammy ability builds or overkill AoE weapons to deal with the equal spammy enemies? And no players would not be flocking to shield gating if the spammy abilities/weapons werent an option as shield gate refreshing sucks in normal everyday content (which the vast majority of players do) as opposed to just health tanking.

 

20 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

LMFAO OH GOD! I need a min. Holy S#&$. I just had a flashback to early WF days when Iron Skin straight up was invulnerability for a set duration and it was the meta.

Yea and old wukong defy was literal invulnerability with an infinite duration due to its interaction with rage yet he was deemed as a thrash tier frame to the point he got a full on rework. In reality full invulnerability is not that useful and nowadays theres quite a handful of frames that just have straight up invulnerability but arent considered game breaking yet despite this for whatever reason whenever the term "gate" is involved whether it be shields or in this case overgaurd people tend to overreact and exaggerate on how op it supposedly is, that was my point.

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And what exactly is "playing well"? This game has become quite the horde shooter with hundreds of enemies surrounding you at all times so why is it so surprising that players are building super spammy ability builds or overkill AoE weapons to deal with the equal spammy enemies? And no players would not be flocking to shield gating if the spammy abilities/weapons werent an option as shield gate refreshing sucks in normal everyday content (which the vast majority of players do) as opposed to just health tanking.

Then let’s pretend building for way more health than the mission asks for isn’t an option as well and watch the players flock to shieldgate abuse. How is the idea of “Players will abuse and cheese however they can to remove risk” such a foreign concept to you? (though admittedly what exactly constitutes cheese can be a little fuzzy)

And you don’t know what playing well entails? Whether players do things like build for higher-level content and then just take the result into lower-level content or abuse shieldgating or build for endless energy to do things like stay invisible, that’s their choice. You don’t need to do much in the way of gameplay when you’re rocking some Steel Path build in non-SP content, which is exactly the reason why players load up on redundant damage and survival mods that could be replaced and bring way overtuned builds to brute force a mission that’s meant to facilitate alternative ways to build and play.

I could give you some examples of gameplay that players intentionally avoid because having to engage with said gameplay carries an element of risk of consuming one of the many revives that we can end up with, but I think I’d actually rather get a sense of just how deep into the rabbit hole you’ve gotten first. Do you have some ideas of what kind of gameplay exists that players choose to avoid by completely solving the mission in the loadout screen instead of in the mission itself? There’s some ones that strike me as fairy obvious

[(NSW)warfare3376]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

And you don’t know what playing well entails? Whether players do things like build for higher-level content and then just take the result into lower-level content or abuse shieldgating or build for endless energy to do things like stay invisible, that’s their choice. You don’t need to do much in the way of gameplay when you’re rocking some Steel Path build in non-SP content, which is exactly the reason why players load up on redundant damage and survival mods that could be replaced and bring way overtuned builds to brute force a mission that’s meant to facilitate alternative ways to build and play.

So "playing well" according to you is purposely using weaker builds for lower lvl content but use much more optimized builds for higher lvl content? No offense but that is one of the dumbest arguments Ive ever heard

 

20 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Then let’s pretend building for way more health than the mission asks for isn’t an option as well and watch the players flock to shieldgate abuse. How is the idea of “Players will abuse and cheese however they can to remove risk” such a foreign concept to you?

So yea take away other options and make every enemy one hit you no matter what lvl the content is and force everyone to "abuse" shield gating at all times yea ok bud. Why do you think shield gates exist in the 1st place? Before shield gating existed this is how long endurance runs looked feel to skim the vid to get an idea of what its like then tell me which you prefer more this current shield gating era or the sit behind a frost bubble era.

 

Spoiler

 

 

41 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I could give you some examples of gameplay that players intentionally avoid because having to engage with said gameplay carries an element of risk of consuming one of the many revives that we can end up with, but I think I’d actually rather get a sense of just how deep into the rabbit hole you’ve gotten first. Do you have some ideas of what kind of gameplay exists that players choose to avoid by completely solving the mission in the loadout screen instead of in the mission itself? There’s some ones that strike me as fairy obvious

God you are reaching quite far but sure go ahead give me some examples then. And while you at that go out and actually try out this supposed shield gate abuse yourself on just a 20 min sp surv, use an actual "shield gate" build and see how long you last because I can almost guarantee it wont be very long judging by all the assumptions you are making about the mechanic.

[(NSW)Greybones]

46 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

So "playing well" according to you is purposely using weaker builds for lower lvl content but use much more optimized builds for higher lvl content? No offense but that is one of the dumbest arguments Ive ever heard

Playing well happens when there’s actual game to play well in. Why is that so hard to understand? When you take some higher-level build lower instead of taking advantage of the chances to build in alternative ways while potentially using alternative equipment earned presented by content that’s designed for exactly that purpose, there’s gradually ever less game to play well in in the first place since enemies die instantly. That’s why players do it, because it makes for easier and lower-risk grind for things they never use

46 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

So yea take away other options and make every enemy one hit you no matter what lvl the content is and force everyone to "abuse" shield gating at all times yea ok bud. Why do you think shield gates exist in the 1st place? Before shield gating existed this is how long endurance runs looked feel to skim the vid to get an idea of what its like then tell me which you prefer more this current shield gating era or the sit behind a frost bubble era.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I know why shield gating was introduced, and it was to work alongside and support the Shield system by giving the player grace period to identify when they’re in trouble and get away and let their shields recharge instead of getting one-shot. Shieldgate abuse stands out as being particularly strange since it actually asks that a player not use the system it’s meant to support and to not invest in shields that would normally give them a gradient of recharging health in the balanced part of the game (which is not SP). Abusing shieldgate for invincibility using things like a Dragon Key that’s meant to make things harder is not some balancing mechanic

51 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

God you are reaching quite far but sure go ahead give me some examples then. And while you at that go out and actually try out this supposed shield gate abuse yourself on just a 20 min sp surv, use an actual "shield gate" build and see how long you last because I can almost guarantee it wont be very long judging by all the assumptions you are making about the mechanic.

I want you to give me an example first, because I’m becoming more and more convinced that you don’t even know some of the most basic concepts of gameplay

[Learicorn]

Uhh I don't get it, how exactly is Rhino immortal now?

[(NSW)warfare3376]

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Playing well happens when there’s actual game to play well in. Why is that so hard to understand? When you take some higher-level build lower instead of taking advantage of the chances to build in alternative ways while potentially using alternative equipment earned presented by content that’s designed for exactly that purpose, there’s gradually ever less game to play well in in the first place since enemies die instantly. That’s why players do it, because it makes for easier and lower-risk grind for things they never use

God this is such a dumb argument how can you not see that, you are literally saying "its ok to play well as long as its not too well". Its utterly rdiclous.

 

15 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I know why shield gating was introduced, and it was to work alongside and support the Shield system by giving the player grace period to identify when they’re in trouble and get away and let their shields recharge instead of getting one-shot. Shieldgate abuse stands out as being particularly strange since it actually asks that a player not use the system it’s meant to support and to not invest in shields that would normally give them a gradient of recharging health in the balanced part of the game (which is not SP). Abusing shieldgate for invincibility using things like a Dragon Key that’s meant to make things harder is not some balancing mechanic

Ok bud so explain how speedva builds are not "abuse" then, that build uses negative strength which is normally meant to be a downside, or how about negative range limbo builds to better handle nullifier bubbles that neg range is supposed to be a downside, or how about even negative impact/puncture rivens to get more ideal ips weithing that neg is suposed to be a downside too. These are called synergies and for the record decaying key plus shield gate does not make you invincible, that is a common misconception because too many people like you dont understand what shield gating actually. If youre restoring your shields in order to refresh the shield agate then youre trading one resouce for another just like you would with your health bar, with shield gating you essentially are turning your energy bar into health the only difference between this and health tanking is that shield gating scales better due to it being far more consistent thx to the 1.3 sec gate.

 

24 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I want you to give me an example first, because I’m becoming more and more convinced that you don’t even know some of the most basic concepts of gameplay

Yea you want me to give you one because you yourself cant as there simply is none, if what you claim was actually true you would see basically everyone playing inaros however you simply dont because its not true. There simply is no content that people actively play were people are prioritizing not invulnerability over everything else.

[(NSW)Greybones]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

God this is such a dumb argument how can you not see that, you are literally saying "its ok to play well as long as its not too well". Its utterly rdiclous.

Are you merging the concepts of how a player builds and how a player plays together or something? Because building does not equal playing

15 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Ok bud so explain how speedva builds are not "abuse" then, that build uses negative strength which is normally meant to be a downside, or how about negative range limbo builds to better handle nullifier bubbles that neg range is supposed to be a downside, or how about even negative impact/puncture rivens to get more ideal ips weithing that neg is suposed to be a downside too. These are called synergies and for the record decaying key plus shield gate does not make you invincible, that is a common misconception because too many people like you dont understand what shield gating actually. If youre restoring your shields in order to refresh the shield agate then youre trading one resouce for another just like you would with your health bar, with shield gating you essentially are turning your energy bar into health the only difference between this and health tanking is that shield gating scales better due to it being far more consistent thx to the 1.3 sec gate.

Like I said what’s considered cheese and what’s not can be fuzzy since we have the means to do something as simple as making an SP-built weapon and then taking it to someplace outside SP, and something like Speedva could be considered a weird interaction and up for consideration as well as to whether it should be addressed (I don’t know why you brought it up as if it’s not worth consideration), but when it comes to shieldgate abuse it is absolutely a mechanic that lets someone go beyond level cap in a way that’s definitely worth considering whether it’s meant to be balanced (which it’s not balanced); level cap is set at 9999 because setting it to infinity doesn’t make sense. That’s what invincibility is and does and is why it’s usually treated with such caution in every game and is why treating this current incarnation of shieldgate abuse like anything other than what it is, a strange interaction that would be first on the chopping block if DE were to ever try and seriously reign in player power, is getting downright bizarre

15 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Yea you want me to give you one because you yourself cant as there simply is none, if what you claim was actually true you would see basically everyone playing inaros however you simply dont because its not true. There simply is no content that people actively play were people are prioritizing not invulnerability over everything else.

I don’t think you know how to play; that’s why you’re so adamant about treating shieldgating like it’s worth keeping around

[(NSW)warfare3376]

33 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Are you merging the concepts of how a player builds and how a player plays together or something? Because building does not equal playing

Youre the one saying to specifically weaker and less efficient builds in lower lvl content.

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

but when it comes to shieldgate abuse it is absolutely a mechanic that lets someone go beyond level cap in a way that’s definitely worth considering whether it’s meant to be balanced (which it’s not balanced); level cap is set at 9999 because setting it to infinity doesn’t make sense. That’s what invincibility is and does and is why it’s usually treated with such caution in every game and is why treating this current incarnation of shieldgate abuse like anything other than what it is, a strange interaction that would be first on the chopping block if DE were to ever try and seriously reign in player power, is getting downright bizarre

That is literally what it was designed for dude. Also similar gate mechanics are very common amongst other games, take payday 2 for example, or borderlands health gate, zelda botw/totk and the division also has it ect... Simply put one hits just suck and theses gates are the solution to that.

31 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I don’t think you know how to play; that’s why you’re so adamant about treating shieldgating like it’s worth keeping around

Youre the one that doesnt understand the shield gate mechanic or why it exists, like I said go try this shield gate "abuse yourself in a 20 min minimum sp surv, I guarantee you wont last vey long.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Youre the one saying to specifically weaker and less efficient builds in lower lvl content.

I’m saying if you use the entire range of building and loadout creations options possible in this game there’s going to be varying levels of gameplay depending on where it gets taken. Efficiency isn’t the concern; the main thing being considered is how the build/loadout made of the base components of gear and mods and schools and whatever else plus where it’s taken affects your gameplay. And most players eschew alternative ways to build and play in favour of low-risk combinations, of which shieldgate abuse is one of the options and would be utilised a lot more if alternative options were rarer because players want that easy grind and will use whatever gives them that, whether it’s an abuse or exploit isn’t a concern

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

That is literally what it was designed for dude. Also similar gate mechanics are very common amongst other games, take payday 2 for example, or borderlands health gate, zelda botw/totk and the division also has it ect... Simply put one hits just suck and theses gates are the solution to that.

Youre the one that doesnt understand the shield gate mechanic or why it exists, like I said go try this shield gate "abuse yourself in a 20 min minimum sp surv, I guarantee you wont last vey long.

You seem to be doing that thing again where you seem to be mixing the fundamental mechanic of shieldgate with shieldgate abuse. In this context, assume I’m talking about shieldgate abuse

[(NSW)warfare3376]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You seem to be doing that thing again where you seem to be mixing the fundamental mechanic of shieldgate with shieldgate abuse. In this context, assume I’m talking about shieldgate abuse

Let me ask you this. Was there anything wrong with that vid I linked with the 5 hour endurance run prior to shield gating?

[(NSW)Greybones]

39 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Let me ask you this. Was there anything wrong with that vid I linked with the 5 hour endurance run prior to shield gating?

The thing that’s wrong is you link a 5 hour endurance run video and then ask me to pick something wrong out of it. Is there some kind of grand overarching concept you want me to look out for or am I supposed to watch the whole thing?

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

The thing that’s wrong is you link a 5 hour endurance run video and then ask me to pick something wrong out of it. Is there some kind of grand overarching concept you want me to look out for or am I supposed to watch the whole thing?

Just skim through bits of it to get the general idea then come back and answer.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Just skim through bits of it to get the general idea then come back and answer.

Please just tell me what I’m looking for. I’m already wasting time talking to you on a forum, I’m not going to skim through a five hour endurance run. I jumped around already and saw someone shooting dudes and casting abilities

[(NSW)warfare3376]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Please just tell me what I’m looking for. I’m already wasting time talking to you on a forum, I’m not going to skim through a five hour endurance run. I jumped around already and saw someone shooting dudes and casting abilities

Ill give you this, it doest really matter where you skim to you will what I want you to see no matter where its at so just jump around and tell if you find anything wrong with whats going on or its perfectly fine.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Ill give you this, it doest really matter where you skim to you will what I want you to see no matter where its at so just jump around and tell if you find anything wrong with whats going on or its perfectly fine.

I think whatever you want me to see is not worth the effort of trying to deal with you being cute

[(NSW)warfare3376]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think whatever you want me to see is not worth the effort of trying to deal with you being cute

I just want you tell if anything at all is wrong with that vid since this was recorded before shield gating was around or if there is nothing wrong at since theres  shield gating for them to "abuse"

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

I just want you tell if anything at all is wrong with that vid since this was recorded before shield gating was around or if there is nothing wrong at since theres  shield gating for them to "abuse"

I’m not sure I understand the criteria. Shieldgate abuse is a thing; its non-existence doesn’t… make building for it and specifically designing a loadout around it not an abuse of a fundamental mechanic.

Is there supposed to be something wrong with the idea that someone can go 5 hours without using a shieldgate abuse build?

[(NSW)warfare3376]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m not sure I understand the criteria. Shieldgate abuse is a thing; its non-existence doesn’t… make building for it and specifically designing a loadout around it not an abuse of a fundamental mechanic.

Is there supposed to be something wrong with the idea that someone can go 5 hours without using a shieldgate abuse build?

My question is there anything at all wrong with players in the vid are doing to achieve this run. Yes or no.

 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

My question is there anything at all wrong with players in the vid are doing to achieve this run.

 

 

Wait a second, you’re trying to equate what they’re doing to shieldgate abuse, like they’re similar things

[(NSW)warfare3376]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

Wait a second, you’re trying to equate what they’re doing to shieldgate abuse, like they’re similar things

Just answer yes or no.