Fire Blast - too weak in the Helminth, too weak on Ember.

[DrBorris]

18 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

That's quite the understatement there. Anyhow, can you come up with a counter point? As in, if Fire Blast could strip more armor with more ability strength (as is the standard for armor removing abilities), how would that make anything worse? Because it sure would make a bunch of things better.

I don't think "just" buffing things to make them better is good design. The gameplay loop Ember's kit currently offers where you have to balance your heat meter is not something I want to see go away. Allowing her to fully strip armor without heat removes the main reason to engage with the mechanic. Buffs are cool, but the best answer isn't always more number.

I said as much in my first response, that is my counter-point. And again, I think balancing the game around content where the time to kill is "forever" is objectively bad design. If Fire Blast doesn't matter at levels above 1000 then who cares... balance doesn't matter above level 1000 anyway. I have no issue with people enjoying level-cap content, but the game shouldn't be designed around that stuff.

And anyway, she can fully strip armor. Simply play Ember when you're playing Ember. Play with her kit, don't try to force it into the box you want it to fit in.

 

I would be in favor of making dealing with max heat less of a pain. Or to add a bit more leeway so you don't need to be perfectly maxed (two things I said in the first reply). Or maybe give Ember something else that synergies with her kit through changes to Fireball. There are lots of things that could be done, but simply increasing the number would negatively impact the uniqueness of Ember's kit. So, so many frames have abilities that "just" do things. They don't encourage any interesting gameplay, they just have four tools that are useful. It is basic and (in my opinion) boring for every single frame to go that route. There are *checks notes* 54 Warframes, I think it is okay that one of them requires you engage with their spammy balancing act.

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I don't think "just" buffing things to make them better is good design. The gameplay loop Ember's kit currently offers where you have to balance your heat meter is not something I want to see go away. Allowing her to fully strip armor without heat removes the main reason to engage with the mechanic.

I see. Have you considered though that literally every warframe in the entire game can 100% armor strip with one button press nowadays? As many times as they want, whenever they want.

Being only able to do this on occasion, and not when you need the armor strip, but when an arbitrary gauge has filled up is just not viable. I'm all for having interesting mechanics and engaging gameplay, but when the result is miles worse than any other warframe, I think it warrants some action?

[DrBorris]

12 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

but when an arbitrary gauge has filled up is just not viable.

I guess this is a difference of experience then. When using Ember and I am able to keep the energy engine running her heat is maxed once every, mmm, 5 seconds? And sure, a 5 second 'cooldown' is a lot for a game with no cooldowns, but given the radius of Fire Blast that means I can keep nearly every enemy stripped in every engagement. Miles worse than any other Warframe is a bit of hyperbole when most Warframes don't get any armor strip innately and Oberon exists. As for Helminth, Therros Strike is far more limited in range and Pillage requires 400%(ish) strength. In my experience, Fire Blast works as an armor strip for Ember. It not being in 1:1 competition with other abilities doesn't matter because Warframes are more than the sum of their abilities.

 

Tunnel visioning on Ember's armor strip isn't the way to go about revising Ember. As I alluded to above, "keep the energy engine running" is a requirement for Ember to work at all and that requires a lot more min/maxing than I think it should. And -insert the other criticisms I have said of Ember here-

The full context of a Warframe's kit should be considered when looking to change any aspect of their abilities, especially in the case of Ember I think the lacking parts are in other places. Giving Ember an easier armor strip won't make her all that much better of a frame. She'll still have energy management issues without min/maxing and she'll still have a wasted ability slot with Fireball.

[Traumtulpe]

I guess we'll just keep things the way they are then, still nobody will infuse Fire Blast, and the 0.61% of people even using Ember will further dwindle. Oh well, I'll just keep using Terrify I guess.

[DrBorris]

31 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I guess we'll just keep things the way they are then, still nobody will infuse Fire Blast, and the 0.61% of people even using Ember will further dwindle. Oh well, I'll just keep using Terrify I guess.

Bruh.

I've spent just as many words talking about the other issues I have with Ember as I have explaining why I think THIS ONE SPECIFIC THING about Ember is okay. Why are you even posting here if you refuse to listen to anything I've said? You're free to disagree with my takes on Fire Blast, but accusing me of saying Ember is "fine" is some grade A cow poo.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

On 2023-08-02 at 10:07 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Fire Blast is the ability you don't use because 150 energy (before mods) for every group of enemies simply isn't competetive. That it requires LoS would be a tradeoff if it could achieve 100%.

well if we are going to talk about "before mods" i might point out that fire blast:

1. Has the greatest range, making it better for larger tiles.
2. Has the greatest armour strip at 75% (87.5% after heat does its thing) when applied via helminth.
3. Has the same energy cost as terrify.

On 2023-08-02 at 11:34 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Yes they do. Lull is only used on Baruuk so he can activate his 4. The ability itself serves no purpose, as you can see from people modding him for 13% duration. Fractured Blast sucks because it's one of those abilities that get nerfed by 50% in the Helminth - that's the sole reason nobody uses it.

13% duration!? If only there was an armour stripping ability that wasn't negatively impacted by builds that take advantage of 13% duration!

[Traumtulpe]

18 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

well if we are going to talk about "before mods" i might point out that fire blast:

1. Has the greatest range, making it better for larger tiles.
2. Has the greatest armour strip at 75% (87.5% after heat does its thing) when applied via helminth.
3. Has the same energy cost as terrify.

13% duration!? If only there was an armour stripping ability that wasn't negatively impacted by builds that take advantage of 13% duration!

Are you armor stripping in the plains of eidolon or something? This thing needs LoS.

87.5% does absolutely nothing at high levels. This isn't hyperbole, absolutely completely utterly nothing. Your damage might go from 10 to 40 on enemies with millions of health.

And Terrify removes all armor. That's the point.

You mean Tharros Strike? Even Terrify still lasts over 3 seconds at 13% duration, you could make that work if you wanted (enemies aren't supposed to live longer than 3 seconds when you attack them). Silly statements aside, Baruuk isn't a frame you play at level cap I don't think.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

I tried it on Hydroid, it doesn't even work properly when you're in puddle mode.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

52 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Are you armor stripping in the plains of eidolon or something? This thing needs LoS.

87.5% does absolutely nothing at high levels. This isn't hyperbole, absolutely completely utterly nothing. Your damage might go from 10 to 40 on enemies with millions of health.

And Terrify removes all armor. That's the point.

You mean Tharros Strike? Even Terrify still lasts over 3 seconds at 13% duration, you could make that work if you wanted (enemies aren't supposed to live longer than 3 seconds when you attack them). Silly statements aside, Baruuk isn't a frame you play at level cap I don't think.

hey, you're the one who brought up "before mods", which i might add also add renders tharros strike and terrify just as useless as fireblast.

But lets leave the "without mods" argument.

If you are using a low strength build, fire blast is more flexible than tharros strike and terrify.
It also contributes to condition overload.
It doesn't cause enemies to run off to the far corners of the map in mission types that encourage quick enemy kills like terrify does. (my actual biggest gripe with terrify)
It has far greater range than the other options, especially tharros strike, allowing you to have great range without having to specifically mod for it.
It is more compatible with builds that sacrifice duration

Yes, it does require 2 casts for 100% strip.
Yes, it does need line of sight.

It does not beat terrify or even tharros strike in all scenarios, but there ARE situations in which it IS a preferable choice and you shouldn't claim it is some objectively weak ability.

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

hey, you're the one who brought up "before mods", which i might add also add renders tharros strike and terrify just as useless as fireblast

No, you don't get the point. It costs 2x as much as Terrify to strip armor because you have to cast twice. This doesn't change with mods.

How hard is this to understand, an ability that you have to cast 2x at 2x the cost of another ability to do exactly the same, and with both being available on all warframes, is simply not viable. As is reflected by nobody using Fire Blast. I have literally never ever ever seen anybody use Fire Blast. Ever.

No amount of weird arguments and twisting of facts will change that Fire Blast as it is is not viable.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

26 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, you don't get the point. It costs 2x as much as Terrify to strip armor because you have to cast twice. This doesn't change with mods.

If you are up against ultra high level enemies like you keep mentioning, you should probably have a solution to the whopping 38 energy 2 casts of fireblast uses when modded for efficiency.

Hell, my nekros meme build (my actual primary nekros build) replaces terrify with fireblast!
The build runs 75% eff, and no flow.
2 casts of fireblast uses 187.5 energy.
Energy is not an issue for that build.

Especially if i have teammates to support me

[GPrime96]

14 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I tried it on Hydroid, it doesn't even work properly when you're in puddle mode.

Yeah subsumes like that and Aquablades lower their hitbox while being above the Puddle after casting the ability. Not fun

[Azamagon]

My take on Fire Blast, and on Fireball too:

Fire Blast

• Base energy cost 50, down from 75
• Ember's heat meter of Immolation also functions as a direct energy reduction effect; at 90% heat meter, Fire Blast's cost is reduced by 90% etc. This reduction is independant of Ability Efficiency.
  • Meaning, at 175% efficiency and 90% heat, Fire Blast cost 50 * 0,25 * 0,1 = 1,25 energy!

Fireball

• Explosion radius increased to 5 meters (up from 2).
  • This is boosted by Immolation's percentage too, so increases the range to up to 9,5 meters at 90% heat (as 5 * 1,9 = 9,5)
• Is now an implosion, pulling enemies towards the centre (similar to Zephyr's Airburst)
• Area of effect damage has a 100% chance to proc heat (up from 50%)

[DrBorris]

20 hours ago, Azamagon said:

My take on Fire Blast, and on Fireball too:

Fire Blast

• Base energy cost 50, down from 75
• Ember's heat meter of Immolation also functions as a direct energy reduction effect; at 90% heat meter, Fire Blast's cost is reduced by 90% etc. This reduction is independant of Ability Efficiency.
  • Meaning, at 175% efficiency and 90% heat, Fire Blast cost 50 * 0,25 * 0,1 = 1,25 energy!

Fireball

• Explosion radius increased to 5 meters (up from 2).
  • This is boosted by Immolation's percentage too, so increases the range to up to 9,5 meters at 90% heat (as 5 * 1,9 = 9,5)
• Is now an implosion, pulling enemies towards the centre (similar to Zephyr's Airburst)
• Area of effect damage has a 100% chance to proc heat (up from 50%)

This is great. Not only does it keep Ember's current unique playtyle, it doubles down on it and makes it more rewarding. And while suck abilities are getting a bit tired, having it scale with Immolation would keep it plenty unique from the other options. Giving Ember an innate suck ability also has innate synergy with Inferno, making for a more complex gameplay rhythm.

 

@Traumtulpe This is the kind of thing I was trying to talk about. I was never trying to gaslight you into thinking Ember was fine, it was a disagreement in philosophy as to how Ember should be changed. I could have been more clear about that from the start, hopefully this concept from Azamagon can better exemplify what I was trying to say.

[(XBOX)DatBrig1Trik]

On 2023-08-02 at 9:41 AM, KitMeHarder said:

It was stealth improved a decent while ago (IDK if that still stands). As an ability it's now as reliable as it can be (... given all the problems with LoS in general).

I can definitely confirm it still stands I can actually hit enemies on higher elevation than me and I can hit enemies behind small cover, and it hits enemies through doorways but it still occasionally misses enemies directly in front of ember. 

[DroopingPuppy]

Well. I did put it on Valkyr and I found that I am only spamming this and this alone. It is very good ability combined with CC and anti armor solution. It's even effective on Steel Path, and with an augment mod it makes her almost invulnerable.

 

Although I didn't played Ember for about 4~5 years but, it is not good for Ember for it is obvious that she cannot spam it. The other frames, however, make use of it very well provided they don't care for ability duration. It is only bad on the hands of Ember, actually.