Galvanized Melee Mods

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

How is 1/4 to 1/3 of usage balanced?

Goes like this:

 

I go into a public squad and typically

at mission results:

one guy who did all Melee kills

one guy who has lots of headshots (probably a rifleman)

one guy who's kills are neither melee nor headshots (the Kuva Bramma spammer)

and one guy who has nearly no kills, but like 20000 Healing (Octavia or similar).

 

So 1/3 to 1/4 of the kills being Melee makes sense.

it means Melee is on equal representation with the other 3-4 common player archetypes.

 

[Tiltskillet]

34 minutes ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

Yeah that’s kind of why I haven’t bothered to record any of my findings. I just observe a consistent discrepancy in total kills vs. melee kills. I rarely see players with a substantial number of melee kills. Several missions I go on, some players will have literally 0 melee kills. I genuinely would be open to being proven wrong, but I am pretty confident that melee usage among mid/endgame players is minimal in comparison to ranged weapons. 

 Ranged weapons seem more dominant to me as well, though I wouldn't guess at a ratio.  And I have no clue about power balance other than that people can clear SP with pretty mediocre range and melee, and go up to level cap with good range and melee.  (Conventional melee; not glaives, gunblades, etc )

There might be factors other than kps in play too.  For example, sheer quantity and variety of ranged weapons.  There are about 50% more primaries and sidearms, and maybe more variety in  how a good ranged weapon can play than  conventional melee.  One  example on my mind lately has been the availability of full auto, which is much easier on my hands.

 And maybe WF ranged combat is more fun for more people, kps aside?

Anyway, none of these these are things that Galvanized melee mods would address.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

I think we can't see those mods happen anytime soon.

The problem is that melees are currently in a very awkward spot.

 

You kill with slash procs coming from your stance, or your weapon has naturally slash oriented weighting. => That's a combo build.

You kill with just standard hits, not so much procs. => That's usually a corrosive or toxin build (depending on faction), can be combo, but not necessarly.

Your weapon is one of the few that have an advantage at being used with an heavy attack build. => That's a heavy build that's not using heavy attack efficiency 9 times out of 10, but extra initial combo. And it's the only valid build for some weapons that you'd use as your main source of damage (hello fragor my beloved).

 

I wouldn't really mind galvanized mods if melee gameplay had something going on for it. (And if some of those worthless stances were fixed).

[Silligoose]

On 2023-08-16 at 1:44 AM, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

I do agree with what you’re saying about ranged being more effective than melee even if melee receives a buff. However, I think a lot of people are not using ranged weapons only because they are more effective. I think people use them because they are powerful and effective. People want to feel powerful. It’s what makes the game fun. If melee were more powerful, it would inherently be more effective. Of course, even if ranged and melee theoretically had the same damage output, ranged would be more effective than melee. However, again, I don’t think effectiveness is the main reason ranged weapons are used over melee.

Did you do a few runs with Roar? How did it affect performance of different missions?

[(XBOX)ZiostShadow]

On 2023-08-21 at 4:27 PM, Silligoose said:

Did you do a few runs with Roar? How did it affect performance of different missions?

I have used Roar with melee on a few different builds. It is good for endurance runs to free up the Primed Smite mod slot, but that’s about it. It doesn’t really affect the damage output much until 1-2hr+ SP.

Melee shouldn’t have to rely on a WF Helminth ability to be relevant though. Ranged/AOE weapons can clear rooms in SP, even on endurance runs, without relying on WF helminth abilities or really any WF abilities at all. Ranged weapons also don’t rely on WF Arcanes either. Many melee builds rely on Arcane Strike and Arcane Fury to be viable. I do agree with another suggestion someone had for dedicated melee Arcanes as well, but I feel like Galvanized Melee mods would be a nice QoL improvement for melee.

I am convinced that everyone saying that melee is “fine” are the same people with 0 melee kills on every mission they run. Entertain me and run melee only (less than 100 primary kills or so) for a 1-2hr SP survival. Let me know how it is compared using an AOE nuke ranged weapon or even a good shotgun build.

The TTK for melee is nowhere near as low as the TTK for ranged on single target or mobs. This just doesn’t make sense. Melee should be high risk-high reward. Right now it is just high risk-meh reward.

 

[Silligoose]

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

I have used Roar with melee on a few different builds. It is good for endurance runs to free up the Primed Smite mod slot, but that’s about it. It doesn’t really affect the damage output much until 1-2hr+ SP.

 

I want to address the whole post, but before I do, what do you mean with the part in bold?

[MaxTunnerX]

On 2023-08-14 at 3:57 AM, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

In my opinion, melee is currently in somewhat of a mediocre state.

To me, the issue is that melee has been outclassed by primary/secondary weapons due to power creep like the addition of galvanized mods (among other things).

I would like to see Galvanized mods for melee as well. I suggest a something like Galvanized Steel - stats and effect to replace Sacrificial Steel and Blood Rush, Galvanized Overload - stats and effect to replace Condition Overload and Weeping Wounds. I think these 2 mods with help bring melee back into balance. I am not going to suggest the percentages because I am not looking at all of the data, however the Galvanized mods for primary/secondary were fairly generous and I think it should be similar for melee.

let me know your thoughts!

As much as I wouldnt mind galvanized melee mods, I think its more than fair that guns outclass melee. Its the whole point of guns, its the reason they were invented and mass produced, beacuse they beat melee, even at close range. So I dont mind melee being worse than guns. As far as I know tho, melee is actually OP in endurance runs or something.

[Leqesai]

As someone who has put forma into every weapon in the game, and run through thousands of scenarios using various range and melee loadouts I have never once thought to myself my melee weapons are under performing. 

Melee got a huge buff awhile back when the heavy attack system was implemented. With heavy attack builds I can one shot pretty much everything with a melee. And if I want to do a general purpose build the killing potential is the same as it was when people were clamoring for a melee nerf. 

 

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

Melee should be high risk-high reward. Right now it is just high risk-meh reward.

Still think you're grossly overestimating the risk in melee, particularly compared to non-AoE ranged.   Yeah melee being inherently risky makes sense realistically and is a trope in gaming.  But it doesn't seem to apply well in this one.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Still think you're grossly overestimating the risk in melee, particularly compared to non-AoE ranged.   Yeah melee being inherently risky makes sense realistically and is a trope in gaming.  But it doesn't seem to apply well in this one.

Exactly. 

Melee in warframe is basically infinite ammo, medium range spammable AOE damage.

Duviri has a more risky melee system and the community has been pretty vocal to frustrations with it. 

[(XBOX)ZiostShadow]

7 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I want to address the whole post, but before I do, what do you mean with the part in bold?

What I meant by that statement is that Roar/Faction mods have a negligible increase to upfront damage at lower level SP. Melee benefits more from upfront damage over DoT buffs at lower level SP.

5 hours ago, MaxTunnerX said:

As much as I wouldnt mind galvanized melee mods, I think its more than fair that guns outclass melee. Its the whole point of guns, its the reason they were invented and mass produced, beacuse they beat melee, even at close range. So I dont mind melee being worse than guns. As far as I know tho, melee is actually OP in endurance runs or something.

You can survive a gunshot wound or even multiple gunshot wounds. You’re not going to survive being cut in half by a sword or smashed with a warhammer. Enough said. 
 

Also, archery and/or guns were invented to, not only be effective, but to reduce the risk for the end user. 
 

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

As someone who has put forma into every weapon in the game, and run through thousands of scenarios using various range and melee loadouts I have never once thought to myself my melee weapons are under performing. 

Melee got a huge buff awhile back when the heavy attack system was implemented. With heavy attack builds I can one shot pretty much everything with a melee. And if I want to do a general purpose build the killing potential is the same as it was when people were clamoring for a melee nerf. 

 

Be careful. Your elitism is showing. Putting Forma into weapons does not make you an expert or a superior opinion. Most of the melee weapons in my arsenal have 4-5 Forma installed. I have maxed out all of my mods and have the primed versions if available. I spend a lot of my time in 1-2hr+ SP runs and in the Simulacrum.

Heavy attack builds are clunky and only work on weapons with forced slash on heavy attacks. Heavy attack builds also rely on only using heavy attacks to be truly effective. Light attack builds are only viable with crit-based, slash-favored weapons and require maintaining constant 12X combo. Even then, it takes multiple hits to take down enemies like non-Eximus Heavy Gunners or Bombards. Ranged weapons are brain-dead in comparison. There is little to no ramp-up to full damage output potential and you don’t have to worry about upkeep of combo or priming. You just point, shoot and everything dies near instantaneously.

 

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Still think you're grossly overestimating the risk in melee, particularly compared to non-AoE ranged.   Yeah melee being inherently risky makes sense realistically and is a trope in gaming.  But it doesn't seem to apply well in this one.

You’re more likely to be susceptible to  all of the following over ranged weapons:

Knockdowns

Eximus abilities

Nullifiers

Acolyte abilities 

Infested toxin clouds

Nox

Enemy melee attacks (duh)

Enemy AI targeting priority 

 

Need I go on? There are more that I can add to the list..

It is either ignorant or just plain foolish to think that melee is not high risk and/or higher risk than ranged. I am not overestimating anything.

 

 

[Silligoose]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

What I meant by that statement is that Roar/Faction mods have a negligible increase to upfront damage at lower level SP. Melee benefits more from upfront damage over DoT buffs at lower level SP.

Roar's damage bonus is not affected by enemy lvl. What are you talking about?

[Leqesai]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

Your elitism is showing.

Well that's quite a rude thing to say.

[(XBOX)ZiostShadow]

42 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Roar's damage bonus is not affected by enemy lvl. What are you talking about?

I never said it was affected by enemy level. I said it was a negligible increase in upfront damage against lower level enemies, which is true. Roar/faction mods are more beneficial for increasing damage from DoTs, rather than upfront damage. Enemies at lower level SP do not live long enough to reap the benefits from Roar/faction mods.

 

40 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Well that's quite a rude thing to say.

Well I’m not trying to be rude. That was just kind of an elitist introduction you made in your post. It was essentially implying that your opinion is superior because you have invested Forma into weapons and done testing. Who hasn’t? 

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

It is either ignorant or just plain foolish to think that melee is not high risk and/or higher risk than ranged.

I suppose I should be thankful you've made it clear that discussing this with you is a waste of my time.

[(XBOX)ZiostShadow]

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I suppose I should be thankful you've made it clear that discussing this with you is a waste of my time.

I mean.. I listed examples of why I believe melee is high risk and/or higher risk than ranged. I have yet to see anyone give a sound argument for why ranged has equal or greater risk than melee; but I digress. 

[MaxTunnerX]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

You can survive a gunshot wound or even multiple gunshot wounds. You’re not going to survive being cut in half by a sword or smashed with a warhammer. Enough said. 

What on earth are you talking about? Youre comparing something incomparable. You can only compare a gunsthot wound to a stab wound or a slash wound. and the odds of survivng are very similar (depends what part of the body and how deep it hits). If you want to compare getting slashed in half (which never happens in real life because people dont go into melee combat without armor), you gotta compare it to a shotgun to the face/torso or a rocket to the torso. That has the same odds of survival pretty much. In melee vs gun fight the best thing the melee fighter can achieve is die and also kill the gun guy if hes close enough and the gun doesnt have enough stopping power. The gun guy however can very easily kill the melee guy at a distance and survive the fight unscathed.

[vixenpixel]

On 2023-08-14 at 3:57 AM, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

In my opinion, melee is currently in somewhat of a mediocre state.

To me, the issue is that melee has been outclassed by primary/secondary weapons due to power creep like the addition of galvanized mods (among other things).

I would like to see Galvanized mods for melee as well. I suggest a something like Galvanized Steel - stats and effect to replace Sacrificial Steel and Blood Rush, Galvanized Overload - stats and effect to replace Condition Overload and Weeping Wounds. I think these 2 mods with help bring melee back into balance. I am not going to suggest the percentages because I am not looking at all of the data, however the Galvanized mods for primary/secondary were fairly generous and I think it should be similar for melee.

let me know your thoughts!

Melee would be fixed if they removed follow-through. No need for galvanized mods at all. But it would be fun with galvanized mods and additionally some arcanes for melee. For sake of variety, it would be interesting if they added something to melee that allowed us to build better hybrid melee, that allowed us to build combo+heavy without basically being forced to have perfect rivens or sacrifice half our damage for it. I think the incarnon weapons do some of that lifting, affording players ability to just do one heavy attack efficiency mod. It's super nice. Allowing more diverse builds for melee.

2 hours ago, MaxTunnerX said:

What on earth are you talking about? 

You should have left it at this, man. ^ 

[MaxTunnerX]

5 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

You should have left it at this, man. ^ 

Hehe maybe, but I just couldnt help myself when I saw someone literally defy basic physics and ballistics.

[vixenpixel]

15 hours ago, Leqesai said:

As someone who has put forma into every weapon in the game, and run through thousands of scenarios using various range and melee loadouts I have never once thought to myself my melee weapons are under performing. 

Melee got a huge buff awhile back when the heavy attack system was implemented. With heavy attack builds I can one shot pretty much everything with a melee. And if I want to do a general purpose build the killing potential is the same as it was when people were clamoring for a melee nerf. 

 

You arn't adding anything to the discussion. You are discussing melee five years ago. We're talking melee now. 

[Leqesai]

42 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

You arn't adding anything to the discussion. You are discussing melee five years ago. We're talking melee now. 

No I am talking about it now. You are free to have a different opinion. All I am saying is I have never thought melee has been in a bad place since heavy attack was introduced. If you disagree that's great for you. 

[vixenpixel]

Just now, Leqesai said:

No I am talking about it now. You are free to have a different opinion. All I am saying is I have never thought melee has been in a bad place since heavy attack was introduced. If you disagree that's great for you. 

That's actually not great for me. That's a bad thing. If I think melee is in a bad place now, that's me feeling bad about it. :(

[Silligoose]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

I said it was a negligible increase in upfront damage against lower level enemies, which is true. Roar/faction mods are more beneficial for increasing damage from DoTs, rather than upfront damage. Enemies at lower level SP do not live long enough to reap the benefits from Roar/faction mods.

The part in bold is the crux of the matter here and lines up with what I stated in my first reply, what I found in gameplay and what the creator in the vid also stated: Due to how flimsy enemies are in comparison to our damage output, despite melee nerfs from a few years back equating to around a 45% nerf in overall melee damage, performance in most missions simply isn't affected all that much, because most time is spent actually getting to the enemies and going through the mission, as opposed to killing enemies. Reverting those nerfs by way of new galv mods for melee, won't be very impactful in most missions in terms of overall performance. 

You are now confirming this same thing. 

19 hours ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

Melee shouldn’t have to rely on a WF Helminth ability to be relevant though. Ranged/AOE weapons can clear rooms in SP, even on endurance runs, without relying on WF helminth abilities or really any WF abilities at all. Ranged weapons also don’t rely on WF Arcanes either. Many melee builds rely on Arcane Strike and Arcane Fury to be viable. I do agree with another suggestion someone had for dedicated melee Arcanes as well, but I feel like Galvanized Melee mods would be a nice QoL improvement for melee.

As you've agreed, Roar's impact on missions that don't go into 1 - 2 hours of gameplay, is insignificant. As such, the damage bonus from Roar is not impactful in non-endurance SP missions, which means melee does not need rely on Helminth (Roar) to be relevant. Your suggested galv mods are not QoL changes. QoL entails changes that do not alter gameplay balance, but makes things more convenient, eg changing the way damage numbers are displayed, making enemy health bars easier to see etc

19 hours ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

I am convinced that everyone saying that melee is “fine” are the same people with 0 melee kills on every mission they run. Entertain me and run melee only (less than 100 primary kills or so) for a 1-2hr SP survival. Let me know how it is compared using an AOE nuke ranged weapon or even a good shotgun build.

Top tier AoE weapons tend to perform better if running SP endurance missions to around lvl 2000 - 3000 enemies or so, because the enemies at that point are still rather flimsy and as such, the superior raw damage output potential of single target weapons can't really be showcased. Same goes for melee. Again, the big problem here is how low enemy durability is in comparison to our damage output, as opposed to the damage potential of melee, or single target weapons for that matter. Melee and single target damage options start outperforming AoE options when enemies become more durable deeper into endurance runs. That remains the bigger issue.

19 hours ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

The TTK for melee is nowhere near as low as the TTK for ranged on single target or mobs. This just doesn’t make sense. Melee should be high risk-high reward. Right now it is just high risk-meh reward.

While I generally agree with the balance decision of melee having higher damage output potential than ranged, factors beyond risk need to be considered, such as AoE potential of melee, effort required from the player, skill requirements, resource requirements etc. As it stands, the damage output potential of melee is good in comparison to most ranged options, as there are options that can break the million DPS barrier, while also having an AoE component and forced procs, but some specific ranged options are broken overpowered. Those exceptional outliers in performance need to be toned down, as opposed to everything else being buffed to be broken OP as well. 

Simply increasing damage output of melee via galv mods as per your suggestion, isn't going to change much. That is the point I was making and it remains the point. 

[(XBOX)ZiostShadow]

10 hours ago, MaxTunnerX said:

What on earth are you talking about? Youre comparing something incomparable. You can only compare a gunsthot wound to a stab wound or a slash wound. and the odds of survivng are very similar (depends what part of the body and how deep it hits). If you want to compare getting slashed in half (which never happens in real life because people dont go into melee combat without armor), you gotta compare it to a shotgun to the face/torso or a rocket to the torso. That has the same odds of survival pretty much. In melee vs gun fight the best thing the melee fighter can achieve is die and also kill the gun guy if hes close enough and the gun doesnt have enough stopping power. The gun guy however can very easily kill the melee guy at a distance and survive the fight unscathed.

I am being pretty fair with my comparison actually. A sword strike to someone’s torso will be much more lethal (quicker) than a shot from a 5.56 rifle. I do plenty of research on ballistics and edged weaponry. You should do some research yourself before trying to derail a valid comparison. Also, you brought up armor which is irrelevant to this conversation. Anyone going into armed combat is wearing body armor. 

You are the one who is making outlandish comparisons. A shotgun is in a much higher tier than a sword would be in. A shotgun would be better compared to a 2H battle axe or something of the likes.

6 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Simply increasing damage output of melee via galv mods as per your suggestion, isn't going to change much. That is the point I was making and it remains the point. 

You keep talking about Roar like it is comparable to the buff provided if Galvanized melee mods were added. It is not. I don’t know if you understand how Roar works, but it isn’t something to be compared with a buff that would benefit upfront damage. I tried explaining why that is, but you are either misinterpreting or not understanding what I’m saying. 
 

I said that it would be a QoL improvement because adding the mods that I suggested would allow us to add more mods like attack speed or range mods on melee. While obviously this would increase the damage output for melee (I never said it wouldn’t), I think mods like attack speed or range (for melee) or fire rate and reload speed (ranged) are both QoL improvements and overall DPS increases. Sometimes something can be two things at once. QoL does not necessarily mean that there is no benefit to DPS. For example, swinging a melee weapon faster or not having to move as much to hit targets is a QoL improvement. Reloading a shotgun faster is a QoL improvement.

[MaxTunnerX]

42 minutes ago, (XBOX)ZiostShadow said:

I am being pretty fair with my comparison actually. A sword strike to someone’s torso will be much more lethal (quicker) than a shot from a 5.56 rifle. I do plenty of research on ballistics and edged weaponry. You should do some research yourself before trying to derail a valid comparison. Also, you brought up armor which is irrelevant to this conversation. Anyone going into armed combat is wearing body armor. 

You are the one who is making outlandish comparisons. A shotgun is in a much higher tier than a sword would be in. A shotgun would be better compared to a 2H battle axe or something of the likes.

Wow, now thats some proper wtf moment right here. I thought you were just not informed enough, but it turns out youre from a different universe altogether. Theres no chance talking sense into you.