Abyss of Dagath: Hotfix 34.0.2

[Halo]

7 hours ago, Grommile said:

It's almost like they're being cautious about the power of new frames, which is very sensible of them, since buffing a weak frame is good PR and nerfing a strong frame is bad PR.

It's still a horrible outlook to release something half-baked then fix it later with either augments or outcry from the community.

And we all know they won't do squat unless every single player is in an outcry for a change. 

She deserved a better release state than this.

[Gaminosaure]

Il y a 20 heures, ChilledPenguin246 a dit :

This update broke the launcher for me. Could not update file

Acesss denied [0x00000005]

Same for me....
The void is devouring my game.

[LoopStricken]

21 hours ago, iPathos said:

Based on the broken reply, seems like mobile is having its fun again. I find I have to be very precise dealing with those boxes on mobile, otherwise I have to start all over again...

I'm on desktop. Seems to work today though.

Edited October 20, 2023 by LoopStricken

[iPathos]

21 hours ago, SDGDen said:

power fantasy and "being blatantly overpowered" are two entire different ball games.

the core of power fantasy in game design is making the player *feel* powerful, which counterintuitively requires a reasonable amount of challenge to exist. 

 

the best way to make a player feel powerful is to present them with something that looks and sounds like a powerful enemy, a massive challenge to overcome, and to then hand them the tools to beat that enemy or challenge with relative ease. key here is that the enemy still has to feel like a threat even if the game isn't that hard. 

this is why balance is still needed in a power fantasy game. if the enemy is never a threat, you don't feel powerful and cool, you feel bored and unimersed.

 

power fantasy is created not just by cranking the player's actual power, it's by making the tools they have feel and look powerful and just straight up awesome. 

lets imagine the following two scenario's:

in one scenario, we have a player attacking an enemy with a sword, they do a basic simple sword swing that deals 80% of the enemy's health in one hit

in the other scenario, we have a player performing that anime-style katana slice where the enemy doesn't take damage until the sword is re-sheathed, it deals 65% of the enemy's health in one hit. 

the second scenario is a better power fantasy than the first, despite the player being more statistically powerful in the first scenario. the disconnect here is between *feeling* powerful and being statistically powerful. 

You don't have to break the down meaning of the term for me, I'm aware. You must also consider the context to which I replied, as that was directed primarily at the inconsistency among nerfing and buffing things game-wide. I personally prefer to find weapons that I enjoy using and then to decide on content that's suitable for them, because that puts my preference for fun over a need for competent gear choice.

It makes sense for overpowered options to somewhat validate other overpowered options, so that monopolies are not formed. However as I also said before, the necessary balance is where fine tuning leaves much to be desired. 

We generally find that one of four main things happens with "powerful" gear in Warframe:

1. They are either difficult, painful or expensive to obtain, gating them through accessibility.
2. They are reliant on a very specific setup, usually including a riven with very specific stat rolls. Gating through RNG.
3. They get nerfed hard upon their efficacy being shown to the wider public, this restricts them via gatekeeping the knowledge of their efficacy.
4. They get nerfed in a minor way, but enough to take them out of the leading position they were in while still retaining some degree of power or appeal. This is the least common and most preferred action for DE to take in general as it benefits the largest selection of players.

While I'd prefer for more things to be buffed than nerfed, I feel like it would benefit the player more if the content being engaged with was more flexible in their manner of approach. Thus, changes are my preferred approach, as it shakes things up without directly removing certain playstyles.

Warframe is already a smorgasbord of content, whether to its benefit or detriment. The more ways that it can be engaged with in an entertaining manner, the better. For some, that's a genuine challenge. For others, it's mowing down every enemy in sight. For others still, it's more about going fast or enjoying the movement system.

My point, in circling back to what you originally said about "nerfing OTHER broken things", was that it would be more beneficial to raise the floor before lowering the ceiling. There's far more options that DE could make viable with small tweaks or fixes, which then could rearrange the power balance from the bottom up. All of this without just throwing more pools of health, armor, shields and overguard at us.

[TheReflafitator]

On 2023-10-19 at 3:00 PM, ChilledPenguin246 said:

This update broke the launcher for me. Could not update file

Acesss denied [0x00000005]

Same, and I have no clue how to fix it. File permissions look good so I have no clue what's causing it. This is driving me nuts. I can't play the game now. DE pls fix.

[Mate397]

I have an odd issue, Ever since the update my game has these momentary freezes/stutters and I have zero idea why. Care to look into this?

[Graavarg]

On 2023-10-19 at 9:37 PM, I.V.A.R.A said:

It's 2023, we've left the more "veteran" thinkers behind and started down a new path for Warframe where you're listening to the community more than ever.

I was thinking about picking up Warframe again, so thanks for reminding me that the current Dev team mostly leads from behind the horde, and not from the front.

That said, part of the Dagath mainline changes are actually "leading from the front" stuff. Hopefully that pendulum swings much further, what the game needs is an invested care-taker, not a millennial-enabling "we'll make everything easy for you so you won't feel sad"-team.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Graavarg
credit to the Devs for some of the big Dagath changes

[Mate397]

On 2023-10-19 at 9:37 PM, I.V.A.R.A said:

 It's 2023, we've left the more "veteran" thinkers behind and started down a new path for Warframe where you're listening to the community more than ever.

It's cute that you unironically believe that, also starting with "it's current year" is just pure cringe.

[master_of_destiny]

On 2023-10-20 at 4:09 PM, iPathos said:

You don't have to break the down meaning of the term for me, I'm aware. You must also consider the context to which I replied, as that was directed primarily at the inconsistency among nerfing and buffing things game-wide. I personally prefer to find weapons that I enjoy using and then to decide on content that's suitable for them, because that puts my preference for fun over a need for competent gear choice.

It makes sense for overpowered options to somewhat validate other overpowered options, so that monopolies are not formed. However as I also said before, the necessary balance is where fine tuning leaves much to be desired. 

We generally find that one of four main things happens with "powerful" gear in Warframe:

1. They are either difficult, painful or expensive to obtain, gating them through accessibility.
2. They are reliant on a very specific setup, usually including a riven with very specific stat rolls. Gating through RNG.
3. They get nerfed hard upon their efficacy being shown to the wider public, this restricts them via gatekeeping the knowledge of their efficacy.
4. They get nerfed in a minor way, but enough to take them out of the leading position they were in while still retaining some degree of power or appeal. This is the least common and most preferred action for DE to take in general as it benefits the largest selection of players.

While I'd prefer for more things to be buffed than nerfed, I feel like it would benefit the player more if the content being engaged with was more flexible in their manner of approach. Thus, changes are my preferred approach, as it shakes things up without directly removing certain playstyles.

Warframe is already a smorgasbord of content, whether to its benefit or detriment. The more ways that it can be engaged with in an entertaining manner, the better. For some, that's a genuine challenge. For others, it's mowing down every enemy in sight. For others still, it's more about going fast or enjoying the movement system.

My point, in circling back to what you originally said about "nerfing OTHER broken things", was that it would be more beneficial to raise the floor before lowering the ceiling. There's far more options that DE could make viable with small tweaks or fixes, which then could rearrange the power balance from the bottom up. All of this without just throwing more pools of health, armor, shields and overguard at us.

 

So....please excuse but I've only glanced at this conversation.  As such, maybe I'm missing some of this.

 

That said, you are requesting the floor to be raised rather than the ceiling to be lowered.  It's a good idea on paper...but how do you square the fact that DE is incapable of this with asking for it?

Let me be less obtuse, and provide an example (or two).  Rivens entered the game as a means to bring everything up to the level of acceptable for later game content.  They were initially pushed out with...very little balance.  Their RNG nature meant that 90/100 rivens are about as useless as a lead balloon, the remaining 10 are divided such that 8 are useful and 2 are absolutely broken.  They of course have multiple layers of RNG...between 2-3 positives, 0-1 negative, and then multipliers for each of the conditions....which makes my broad 90% garbage work...without having to do two pages of math to get a more accurate number.  DE failed to balance, made a black market, and eventually came to the conclusion that instead of balance they'd equalize to a desired usage outcome....because 10th+ order systems are basically impossible to balance without a mathematician spending hours to even model.

Likewise, our recent incarnon stuff is...a thing.  I'd like to say great, but they basically tacked on some base stats to weapons that were utter garbage by a thousand updates power creeping them into oblivion.  Instead of just fixing them though they slapped on an incarnon mode...which is a huge power boost that is so limited as to be useless.  Joy...after half a mission's head shots I can enter into a slightly more powerful mode that feels good...just long enough know it's working before it's got to recharge.  Ouch.

 

 

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any points, but I'd like to understand how and why you believe DE is capable.  Ideally with some sort of examples that I could rattle around in my brain and try to make sense of.  I don't think your point is inherently wrong...but I'm also not entirely capable of seeing it through to some sort of engame where DE genuinely understands their own game as a whole.  

Blessed be the Pablo reworks, where an old frame gets reworked into something genuinely good (Grendel and now Hydroid), but Pablo is a freak (in the best of ways).  He seems to have a laser focus on what is good, and fits it into the game without just simply stat buffing.  Pets 2.0 is great...and it only took 5 years.  Joking aside...I'm viewing Infested Salvage, the Grendel Missions, Defections, and what I see is a company that cannot commit.  They add more, and instead of building up they build out.  With that philosophy they cannot ever balance...because it would require that they balance everything...and that's a huge non-value add when it's much easier to repurpose.  As an example, repurpose a basic mission type (exterminate), reuse the lantern mechanic from an old boss (Zeloid Prelate), reuse the low lighting condition from special missions, and gate it behind a new Dojo room and syndicate standing.  Use this in conjunction with a near zero effort single model "story time with Grandmother" mechanic, and you've got what appears to be a lot of content that is literally a week of work for an animator and maybe a few weeks of work on designing the frame.  Drag this out for 4+ months...because you're still working on stuff promised before you even started working at DE (read: pets 2.0), and have that mission mechanic dragged out because you need a new resource that's RNG valued...it's done.  Ready for consumption.

 

 

Please note that a lot of this is because when I logged in I was bounced out of a mission so DE could ask me to do a survey...instead of on log-out like before.  They asked if the game respected my time, and my answer was no.  It was no because nothing in this game is about respect for time, it's entirely about the line we're willing to draw between gameplay and skipping a garbage grind...or the content hidden behind it.  I'm OK with that in free to play...but we're getting to the point that DE is starting to actually lose whales based upon their actions...and I think it's directly linked to the inability to balance things.  Thus, I want to hear an opinion from somebody who...I don't believe is on the same wavelength I am, and thus might offer insight that I'm missing.  

[Unseen_blade99]

On 2023-10-19 at 1:34 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Fixed Tenacious Bond not taking Hunter Synergy’s +30% Critical Chance-Link  into account. 

This is still not fixed. Please revisit this before it gets forgotten.

Can kubrows and kavats get a slight crit chance bump so Tenacious Bond works with maxed Bite? Right now certain sentinel guns can trigger this by default, but that forces us to play with non interactive sentinels instead of the more interactive companions.