Secondary Incarnons Could Really Use a Incarnon Ammo Max Buff

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Bronco, Despair, Gammacor, Kunai, Lato, Vasto, and Zylok all have very low Incarnon ammo max

1. Bronco - 20 shots, each pellet only charges 0.5 Incarnon ammo resulting in very slow charging, exacerbated by its wide spread. Dual Toxocyst gets 270 Incarnon Ammo Max and 30 charges/pellet while sharing the same gimmick. Bronco could be buffed to 40 Incarnon Ammo Max and 1 charge/pellet.
2. Despair - 20 shots. We have much stronger AoE Incarnon primaries (Braton, Latron, Strun) that get 40+ Incarnon ammo max. Despair could reasonably be buffed to have 40 Incarnon ammo max. The embed delay also feels awkward. I'd rather just have them explode immediately.
3. Gammacor - 15 shots. Again we have much stronger AoE Incarnon primaries that get much higher ammo max. Ammo max could increased to 30 easily.
4. Kunai - 20 shots. Angstrum gets to have a similar gimmick (arguably better thanks to ricochet), but 6x the ammo. The Incarnon ammo max could could reasonably be buffed to 60.
5. Lato - 24 shots. Similar case to Bronco. Incarnon Ammo Max could be buffed to 50.
6. Vasto - 24 shots. 36 shots would feel better (6 bursts for the six-shooter).
7. Zylok - 12 shots, only charges 1 shot/pellet. Again, we have much stronger AoE Incarnon primaries (Braton, Latron, Strun) that get 40+ Incarnon ammo max, with better charge rates. Zylok also suffers from excessively slow fire rate, compounded by being a charge weapon. Removing the charge mechanic (like you did with Gorgon) would be a large improvement.

[Seele]

I mean, incarnons are already (virtually by definition) excessively overpowered. (I know not all are equal, but 1 billion dollars and 10 billion dollars are both too much money.) While this would make them feel better, do they need to be better?

I use Lato extensively and it charges its energy so quickly that I don't mind the relatively low incarnon mode 'ammo'. It will be back up again soon enough. Encourages me to use it decisively, without being too punishing for liberal use.

The real singular biggest issue with the incarnon system as a whole is the disparity in incarnon energy charging efficacy. Lato recharges easily while I can go entire missions without filling a shotgun even once. If charging incarnons was just a bit more consistent (I have previously suggested charging shotguns based on gross pellet contact rather than headshots) then the "feel-bad"s of low energy reserves would be mitigated, as is the case with my Lato.

[Tiltskillet]

39 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Despair - 20 shots. We have much stronger AoE Incarnon primaries (Braton, Latron, Strun) that get 40+ Incarnon ammo max. Despair could reasonably be buffed to have 40 Incarnon ammo max. The embed delay also feels awkward. I'd rather just have them explode immediately.

I like the delay, but it feels like it needs a much better pay-off compared to Braton, Latron, Burston, etc.  And it's harder to charge up than those weapons too, due to projectile behavior.

More charges gets it some of the way there.  I guess I'd take removal of the explosion delay, but I'd prefer it just get some better stats.  Really I want something more radical than that, like a lingering damage field or defense stripping, but that's not realistic.

The rest of these weapons I don't use, but your suggestions look a lot better balanced against the top tier Incarnonweapons than they are currently.

31 minutes ago, Seele said:

If charging incarnons was just a bit more consistent (I have previously suggested charging shotguns based on gross pellet contact rather than headshots) then the "feel-bad"s of low energy reserves would be mitigated, as is the case with my Lato.

Yeah, charging really needs rebalancing since the "Torid" nerf.  I think they should start by taking multishot out of the equation entirely, and work them out from there.  Use APS, accuracy / projectile behavior, and potential Incarnon output as the main factors to determine how charge economy on different weapons is balanced against each other

I would not be in favor of making them all body-shot based unless they were far more efficient to charge up with headshots.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

the massive ammo limitations is probably why i favor Dual Toxocysts and dont really like the others (though despairs arent that bad imo).

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

1 hour ago, Seele said:

I mean, incarnons are already (virtually by definition) excessively overpowered. (I know not all are equal, but 1 billion dollars and 10 billion dollars are both too much money.) While this would make them feel better, do they need to be better?

 

 

I would gladly accept a damage nerf in exchange for better Feel.

 

[Seele]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I would not be in favor of making them all body-shot based unless they were far more efficient to charge up with headshots.

I agree. In fact for hitscan non-spread projectile weapons I would advocate leaving them as headshot-only.

Multishot should not be a factor; I don't think any mod or buff should influence charge rate, only player execution. I considered bodyshots for shotguns specifically because of how headshotting seems to not work at all correctly for them, and a full-contact shot means you are playing the weapon well. (Melee is capable of headshots but melee weapons do not require headshots to charge incarnon mode.) However I see how this is obfuscated once multishot comes into consideration. Spread weapons are so woefully incapable of generating charge even in skilled players' hands, so something has to give.

I've not had any experience with non hitscan projectiles like Kunai or Despair, but I think headshotting with them is a bit demanding as well.

I think the most elegant solution is to have a base, even if miniscule, amount of energy gained on-hit. Even if the connection is poor, or the spread weapon calculation is never corrected, or your hands just don't move the way they did when you were 20 years old, you'll still make some progress so long as you are hitting. Then offer sizable bonuses for headshots, distance from the target, hipfire vs. aimed, etc.

[VibingCat]

I agree for most of them, maybe Lato is fine already but Vasto needs even more than six bursts. Bronco and Atomos take forever to charge, besides.

[Azamagon]

Well, i wholeheartedly agreed that many of the secondary Incarnons could need an ammo boost (just look at my most recent giant Incarnon thread lol)

As for the specifics:

Bronco - 40, at least. I'd say 50 would be more like it. And charge per headshot could be increased to 2, even.

Despair - Same as Bronco; 40 at least, but 50 probably is better. I wouldn't mind an instant explosion either.

Gammacor - As it is, yeah, 30 sounds good. But I suggested a pretty hefty buff for it in my thread (to tie in the evolutions better), where the final explosion is weaker, but all "vacuumed" enemies are all attacked by Gammacor-beams during the vacuum effect. I think that would make it pretty nasty, and thus didn't buff its ammo directly.

Kunai - Agreed.

Lato - Since it is arguably a bit weaker than Bronco, id suggest 60. And charge per shot from 4 to 6.

Vasto - Honestly, even 36 would remain pathetic. I'd say 60 at least. It also needs huge statbuffs overall. Easily one of the worst Incarnons, and FAR too reliant on Deathtrap Trigger to do anything.

Zylok - What do you propose here ammowise? Imo, 20, with 2 per headshot. That, along with forced heat-procs on the explosion. As for its trigger, I think charge is ok here, as it has some mechanical similarities to its normal form's duplex-trigger. But i personally wouldn't oppose its removal either.

[VibingCat]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Lato - Since it is arguably a bit weaker than Bronco, id suggest 60. And charge per shot from 4 to 6.

Not really, before abilities it has 200 millions DPS with a primer and Cascadia Overcharge, give it a try. 

[deucich]

20 часов назад, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom сказал:

Bronco, Despair, Gammacor, Kunai, Lato, Vasto, and Zylok all have very low Incarnon ammo max

Some secondaries on this list, as fast as they burn through incarnon form, they gain charges even faster. In my experience, lato and kunai are getting fully charged in couple of seconds. Having incarnon ammo on a lower side of the spectrum isn't a big deal for those.

20 часов назад, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom сказал:

Despair - 20 shots. We have much stronger AoE Incarnon primaries (Braton, Latron, Strun) that get 40+ Incarnon ammo max.

20 часов назад, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom сказал:

Gammacor - 15 shots. Again we have much stronger AoE Incarnon primaries that get much higher ammo max.

20 часов назад, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom сказал:

Zylok - 12 shots, only charges 1 shot/pellet. Again, we have much stronger AoE Incarnon primaries (Braton, Latron, Strun) that get 40+ Incarnon ammo max, with better charge rates.

You keep referring to primaries... Should secondaries be somehow on par with primaries? Why?

14 часов назад, Seele сказал:

Multishot should not be a factor; I don't think any mod or buff should influence charge rate, only player execution.

And how would you mitigate implications of fire rate and -recoil mods? Should slowing enemies 10x times by cold procs slow down your incarnon charging as well because it makes it easier? Should immobile invulnerable enemies (via nudus's parasitik link for example) just stop charging your incarnon altogether?
There are many factors affecting the ease and speed of charging up your incarnon. Why target multishot only, of all the things?

[crazywolfpusher]

For the Vasto I think it would be much better if the transformation was automatic. Having to manually go incarnon form every few seconds... it just kill the flow on a game that throw at you dozens of enemies.

I haven't tried all the secondaries but probably if they suffer from the same as the Vasto, surely would get a lot better if they simply went Incarnon automatically.

 

 

[Seele]

16 hours ago, deucich said:

And how would you mitigate implications of fire rate and -recoil mods? Should slowing enemies 10x times by cold procs slow down your incarnon charging as well because it makes it easier? Should immobile invulnerable enemies (via nudus's parasitik link for example) just stop charging your incarnon altogether?

There are many factors affecting the ease and speed of charging up your incarnon. Why target multishot only, of all the things?

Because calculating multiple projectiles works incredibly advantageously for non-spread weapons and adversely for spread weapons, which already have it tough enough.

Multishot is a direct damage increase that does not in any other way affect weapon performance. It's already a required stat for literally every firearm, and causing it to also insanely accelerate incarnon energy charge (again, only for single-projectile weapons) is needless, and functionally serves only to widen the gap between standard hitscan single projectile firearms with non-riven +multishot (easy), hitscan single projectile weapons with riven and non-riven +multishot (hilariously easy), and spread weapons (literally close to impossible for non endless content. Just to charge once. Deliberately aiming for headshots with a capable, steady hand.)

Fire rate is a DPS increase, but also affects ammo economy, reload frequency, and can intensify the effects of recoil, and as such is not a must-include on virtually every weapon the way multishot is. If you wanted to include +fire rate because it helped you charge your incarnon energy, that's fine. Just like stacking a bunch of cold procs to ease your headshots is fine. Similarly if you feel the need to slot a mod for -recoil, go for it. It can make the weapon feel better, but does not directly affect its damage output at all.

[deucich]

9 часов назад, Seele сказал:

Because calculating multiple projectiles works incredibly advantageously for non-spread weapons and adversely for spread weapons, which already have it tough enough.

So, you want to break in-game logic (more pellets = more hits), consistency (multishot provides extra hits for sniper rifles and hata-satya as well) and to worsen things for people going for extra multishot in their builds (shotgun vendetta, primary frostbite\blight, conjunction voltage and\or rivens)... because some guns have it better than others, do i get it right?

9 часов назад, Seele сказал:

spread weapons (literally close to impossible for non endless content. Just to charge once. Deliberately aiming for headshots with a capable, steady hand.)

What are even those "spread weapons"? Angstrum, strun, boar, bronco, felarx? In my experience: angstrum prisma gets fully charged with just one shot in a general direction of the enemy; strun wraith, strun prime, bronco prime get fully charged in 1-2 shots (1 good or 2 sloppy shots); felarx gets fully charged in 3-4 shots; boar prime takes 5-8 shots to fully charge. All you need for that is a beefy enough target to take those shots to its full capacity. Heavier units work mostly fine for that within SP non-endless missios, as well as archon hunts (including solo) and even axi void storms. The only outlier struggling to find beefy enough enemy would be the boar prime (because its base form has much higher dps than most others in their respective incarnon forms). If for some reason you want to charge up your incarnon guns on even lower lvl missions, you need to remove damage mods and use extinguished dragon key.

Edited November 7, 2023 by deucich

[Seele]

50 minutes ago, deucich said:

What are even those "spread weapons"? Angstrum, strun, boar, bronco, felarx? In my experience: angstrum prisma gets fully charged with just one shot in a general direction of the enemy; strun wraith, strun prime, bronco prime get fully charged in 1-2 shots (1 good or 2 sloppy shots); felarx gets fully charged in 3-4 shots; boar prime takes 5-8 shots to fully charge. All you need for that is a beefy enough target to take those shots to its full capacity. Heavier units work mostly fine for that within SP non-endless missios, as well as archon hunts (including solo) and even axi void storms. The only outlier struggling to find beefy enough enemy would be the boar prime (because its base form has much higher dps than most others in their respective incarnon forms). If for some reason you want to charge up your incarnon guns on even lower lvl missions, you need to remove damage mods and use extinguished dragon key.

This is patently insane and I am done talking with you.

All of my non-shotgun weapons can be easily incarnon-charged regardless of the level of content. Even when I specifically try to charge Boar, Felarx, or Strun by pressing the barrel to the head of every lancer, crewman, and SP corrupted eximus heavy gunner I see, I am lucky to fully charge the incarnon energy once per mission. Don't be disingenuous.

[deucich]

14 минут назад, Seele сказал:

This is patently insane and I am done talking with you.

Not able to defend such a deranged position? Understandable :D

14 минут назад, Seele сказал:

Don't be disingenuous.

I'm not. I specifically ran a couple of low level SP exterminates (earth one for grineer and venus for cormus) for each and every every gun that i mentioned right before posting those numbers of shots it takes to charge up.

14 минут назад, Seele сказал:

Even when I specifically try to charge Boar, Felarx, or Strun by pressing the barrel to the head of every lancer, crewman, and SP corrupted eximus heavy gunner I see, I am lucky to fully charge the incarnon energy once per mission

Which means you're clearly doing smth wrong or we have different games installed. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by deucich

[Seele]

8 hours ago, deucich said:

Not able to defend such a deranged position? Understandable :D

Objective fact and empirical evidence are both no defense to the wilfully ignorant.