I want to fight max level enemies.

[Leqesai]

5 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I get what OP is saying but what I'm getting at is we already have SP as "new game difficulty+". To now ALSO include another version of what that does will not really benefit the game in the way OP hopes. 

 

Is that what you were trying to say?

I just read your original comment and I still don't get it.

I'm not sure why you are saying anything about warframe levels... frame/gear levels have nothing to do with enemy scaling....

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Personally, I find max level enemies/level cap a bit overrated. As in I don't think it actually challenges or tests limits or builds, like the implication it does, because they are max level. I also don't play any of the other games OP references, but I hope people wouldn't build up level cap enemies, only to eventually be disappointed, because the idea they built up in their head, isn't actually accurate to reality. Difficulty, challenge and so on, whilst subjective, eh, it can involve more than inflated numbers (and thus requiring more effort as far as implementing it from creators/devs). 

That also being said, I do understand the general desire people could have, at wanting a more time friendly accessible way to fight max level/level cap enemies, without many of the related variables, that currently exist. Just because, any ideas or expectations aside. Though, arguably, its a bit funny sounding (not saying its invalid), because a lot of those variables or side aspects usually revolve around challenge.. "I want to be challenged in this game... and fight the toughest enemies... Oh well this mode will get me there fast... ehhh but its randomised so... oh this other mode will be... eh but Operator issues... I want challenging enemies... not challenging situations!" 

I think it could be neat/interesting, if we maybe had a Nightmare mode, that was always available, and it would rotate various endless missions, and the scaling was such, that after 15 - 20 minutes, you would be at level cap. Just so those that wanted to see what it was like, could experience it. Nothing else extra, no extra incentives, just there for people that want to experience it. 

Mind you, I can imagine its possible some people also see a part of level cap, being the absurd time involved in actually getting there, being a part of the process. What makes it special and all that. Like how many people have actually done level cap? Outside of certain special alerts etc? Not that I am such a player, like I said, I thought it was overrated experience, my own, I mean, and I really like Disruption (and SP Circuit, and Cascade). You might even have you "yeah I did level Cap before it became casual and easy to get there, and you actually needed endurance, back when it was special!" 

Its also not too bad if you solo, because you can pause. So you just need to prep a little. Like deciding whether you want to do a Disruption or Survival, what maps may be better, since say in Disruption, how fast/good you are can help you get there faster, versus Survival, where its just a matter of time. Some tilesets thus can be better than others, plus, even better if you can do a Fissure, but that also comes with pros and cons. You don't have to do the whole thing at once, you can pause. Oh also not mentioning any of this, to say this is the only way. Like I said above, could be interesting to have somewhere in the game, like a Nightmare mode, where its more accessible, faster, more straight forward. If anything though, I expect it would just dispel a lot of illusions people have as well, and then deemed ultimately pointless. 

Whenever I personally fight high level enemies, its usually because I am in an endless SP fissure, and because I like the reward/resource multipliers that start to stack, I barely notice the enemies levels getting higher. Thats just me though, who am I to deny the people that like to see big numbers on their enemies?!?

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

but I hope people wouldn't build up level cap enemies, only to eventually be disappointed, because the idea they built up in their head, isn't actually accurate to reality

From a lowly L1 player who still struggles to understand modding, the longest SP survival I've done is about an hour maybe 70 minutes. I have no idea what timeframe is even required to reach "level cap" now what that level is. I do agree that as time goes by the enemies do get tankier but it seems subtle when you're deep into it.

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

because I am in an endless SP fissure, and because I like the reward/resource multipliers that start to stack, I barely notice the enemies levels getting higher.

 

[ChaoticEntropyPrime]

On 2023-11-13 at 11:45 AM, ReddyDisco said:

Would be nice to have an endless mission type that ramps up enemy levels extremely quickly, no i don't mean randomized bullS#&$ that is sp circuit. Something where you use the weapons and frames you want.

Like void cascade or disruption? 

[Aruquae]

12 hours ago, VibingCat said:

Congrats, that's cool and impressive. Our wish is to make it shorter than 8-10 hours, possibly even less than one hour because every minute before level 1000-3000 is just too easy, so that most of the challenge isn't about our patience.

Yes yes, and my suggestion was to use the highest level mission to fight the toughest leveled faction slightly faster than a normal mission. 
And it’s not cool, or impressive. It was boring, and spamming invulnerability with gloom instead of using my actual tanking sucked. 
And before anyone says “Then why did you do it?” I did it so that I can say I did it. 

[VibingCat]

3 minutes ago, Malikili said:

Yes yes, and my suggestion was to use the highest level mission to fight the toughest leveled faction slightly faster than a normal mission. 
And it’s not cool, or impressive. It was boring, and spamming invulnerability with gloom instead of using my actual tanking sucked. 
And before anyone says “Then why did you do it?” I did it so that I can say I did it. 

Boring because it took you about ten hours, now imagine if it had been a few times shorter.

[Aruquae]

Just now, VibingCat said:

Boring because it took you about ten hours, now imagine if it had been a few times shorter.

I admit, that was part of it. The time it took really discouraged the rest of the time. The other half was because I couldn’t actually TANK. 
One thing I did enjoy however, was the sheer movement you had to do. Even with gloom, you had to move like crazy dodging everything, and using the terrain. 

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I've laid out the facts and stick you head in the sand looking for a vein of underground copium.

And you arent even reading what your own "facts" say. Significant advantage over other players and so on, straight from your own linked quotes.

There is no objective advatage to be had over another player by purchasing any progress in WF, since nothing you buy is a guaranteed advantage since something that cannot even be purchased may very well be BiS in this game. And while one player might see skipping as a win, while robbing themselves of playing the content, another player may see that as an effective loss, since they just removed playable content from the game.

P2W is an objective method to gain advantages over others. If it is subjective it simply cannot result in a win outcome. So since everything in WF is effectively subjective based on each player, it cannot be P2W. Pay to advance, pay to skip, pay to complete and so on yes, P2W no, since what might be a win to you might not be a win to me or someone else, it might very well be the opposite even. And since progress isnt linear either the player not spending to progress is not objectively behind those that do spend.

Just look at Dagath. Anyone that bought her robbed themselves from playing the new game mode, the only new playable part of the update really. Those that farmed her got a couple of hours of entertainment from the new mission type. Now which person won? Both since it is subjective what your preference is to obtaining her.

[Nira]

For what it's worth I'm with you all the way, OP.

I too dislike the randomised loadout of The Circuit. But I do like the pace of enemy scaling and variety of units. I'd personally be quite happy if that same pace of scaling was incorporated in to SP star chart and fissures.

[Silligoose]

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And you arent even reading what your own "facts" say. Significant advantage over other players and so on, straight from your own linked quotes.

There is no objective advatage to be had over another player by purchasing any progress in WF, since nothing you buy is a guaranteed advantage since something that cannot even be purchased may very well be BiS in this game. And while one player might see skipping as a win, while robbing themselves of playing the content, another player may see that as an effective loss, since they just removed playable content from the game.

P2W is an objective method to gain advantages over others. If it is subjective it simply cannot result in a win outcome. So since everything in WF is effectively subjective based on each player, it cannot be P2W. Pay to advance, pay to skip, pay to complete and so on yes, P2W no, since what might be a win to you might not be a win to me or someone else, it might very well be the opposite even. And since progress isnt linear either the player not spending to progress is not objectively behind those that do spend.

Just look at Dagath. Anyone that bought her robbed themselves from playing the new game mode, the only new playable part of the update really. Those that farmed her got a couple of hours of entertainment from the new mission type. Now which person won? Both since it is subjective what your preference is to obtaining her.

Not only have we had this debate before with you making up all sorts of things, some of which you rehash now, we've had discussions in which you denied fairly basic math because it proved you wrong, when I showed how much more single target damage Rubico Prime can do in comparison to the 2022 meta AoE weapons. You chose to ignore objective proof I provided regarding being able to complete missions without killing, because you couldn't handle being wrong.

Your ego and emotions control you to the point where irrefutable evidence is ignored when not fitting your bias and logic is thrown out the window. Seeing as you appear interested in simply bringing up points already made and discussed, I suggest reading through our old discussions. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Your ego and emotions control you to the point where irrefutable evidence is ignored when not fitting your bias and logic is thrown out the window.

It isnt irrefutable evidence when your own provided links talk against your personal idea on what P2W is. There isnt a single part of progression in WF where you can objectively apply P2W since there is no guaranteed advantage, nor are there any significant, big or serious advantage (all words from your own links) tied to whatever advantage you see. Something doesnt become P2W because players feel someone else has an advantage over them, it becomes P2W when playere have an objective advantage over others. Also, since WF is a co-op game, the part of P2W "advantage over" doesnt exsist either, since whatever is payed for benefits everyone in a group. We can for instance not steal mobs or farm spots from others in WF. And that is if the purchased items were also guaranteed to be BiS power upgrades, which they arent.

There is no drawback in not paying in WF since there is nothing to fall behind on in the end.

What makes it extra funny regarding your links is that you provide the esports.net definiton, which uses skins as an example of P2W, on of the most subjective things in life i.e cosmetics and what could be considered "beauty" and appeal. Which is always a personal matter with no concrete "win" condition.

"Some fellows like their women short, some fellows like them round, me I like the kinda girl that makes me stand up to go down" - Amon Amarth

"One mans trash is another mans treasure" -  no #*!%ing idea who said that

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - yeah no idea there either who coined it

And so on...

Edited November 14, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)Player244024418 said:

From a lowly L1 player who still struggles to understand modding, the longest SP survival I've done is about an hour maybe 70 minutes. I have no idea what timeframe is even required to reach "level cap" now what that level is. I do agree that as time goes by the enemies do get tankier but it seems subtle when you're deep into it.

 

Survival is one of the longer approaches. I haven't done Survival level caps personally. Even with pausing as an option, in solo, its... ehhh. I struggle as far as interest and motivation, going past 2 hours. From what I know from others though, its around 7 to 8 hours. 

Disruption, Cascade and Circuit are much faster, since the first two scale off progress, you can speed up the process, the latter scales aggressively. Depending on whether you are in a team or solo, you can get the time down to 1 to 3 hours, depending on such variables. Squad can be good if you are in a party and talking, since it can make the time go by way faster, and you can organise more, solo can be nice, since you can pause and take a break and come back later. Cascade turns into a really nice Arcane farm too, but unfortunately no Fissure version yet. Disruption on the other hand, can be a Fissure so good for that reason, plus SE gains. 

Enemy damage can be an issue at a certain point, depending on what Warframe/playstyle you use.Though yeah, I get bored in Survival around 1 hour and 30, 40 mins in. I usually only go further if its a double resources weekend.

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt irrefutable evidence when your own provided links talk against your personal idea on what P2W is. There isnt a single part of progression in WF where you can objectively apply P2W since there is no guaranteed advantage, nor are there any significant, big or serious advantage (all words from your own links) tied to whatever advantage you see. Something doesnt become P2W because players feel someone else has an advantage over them, it becomes P2W when playere have an objective advantage over others. Also, since WF is a co-op game, the part of P2W "advantage over" doesnt exsist either, since whatever is payed for benefits everyone in a group. We can for instance not steal mobs or farm spots from others in WF. And that is if the purchased items were also guaranteed to be BiS power upgrades, which they arent.

There is no drawback in not paying in WF since there is nothing to fall behind on in the end.

What makes it extra funny regarding your links is that you provide the esports.net definiton, which uses skins as an example of P2W, on of the most subjective things in life i.e cosmetics and what could be considered "beauty" and appeal. Which is always a personal matter with no concrete "win" condition.

"Some fellows like their women short, some fellows like them round, me I like the kinda girl that makes me stand up to go down" - Amon Amarth

"One mans trash is another mans treasure" -  no #*!%ing idea who said that

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - yeah no idea there either who coined it

And so on...

 

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Not only have we had this debate before with you making up all sorts of things, some of which you rehash now, we've had discussions in which you denied fairly basic math because it proved you wrong, when I showed how much more single target damage Rubico Prime can do in comparison to the 2022 meta AoE weapons. You chose to ignore objective proof I provided regarding being able to complete missions without killing, because you couldn't handle being wrong.

Your ego and emotions control you to the point where irrefutable evidence is ignored when not fitting your bias and logic is thrown out the window. Seeing as you appear interested in simply bringing up points already made and discussed, I suggest reading through our old discussions. 

Seems context is a concept that still eludes you, or you are trying to be deceitful again and create false narratives. Given your history, it could be both. The irrefutable proof I refer to would be the proof referred to in bold. There is limited use in discussing more nuanced topics with someone like you given your proclivity to deny irrefutable proof, such as fairly basic math and visual proof that can be verified. Your latest reply contains points you've already made and I already addressed, a year ago. We are better served with you reading the old discussions instead of you regurgitating your points here. They've been addressed - I'm not going to do it here again because you are lazy and/or need attention.

[(PSN)Unstar]

19 hours ago, VibingCat said:

Why not? What about same rewards but more of them?

Rewards determine what content is useful to do, which in turn determines the meta.  Steel Path was initially conceived as an optional hard mode, but meaningful rewards were placed there, which suddenly made it the baseline experience that builds need to be able to tackle.

If level cap farms become more efficient than non-level cap farms, then suddenly level cap is no longer just a fun time for the players who want it, but rather it becomes an optimal farm.  That shift in useful content would in turn shift the meta towards builds that can succeed at level cap.

Rewards are a carrot, and if you dangle a carrot you will lure players to do content, whether they want to or not.  It's an unfortunate truth, but it's also Game Design 101.  That's why my support for level cap gameplay is entirely contingent on there being absolutely no change to the reward tables.  I want level cap players to have the challenge they crave because that sounds like a nice little thing for them, but I will oppose such a change with ten times the ferocity if such a change would impact the game outside of that experience.

[VibingCat]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Rewards determine what content is useful to do, which in turn determines the meta.  Steel Path was initially conceived as an optional hard mode, but meaningful rewards were placed there, which suddenly made it the baseline experience that builds need to be able to tackle.

If level cap farms become more efficient than non-level cap farms, then suddenly level cap is no longer just a fun time for the players who want it, but rather it becomes an optimal farm.  That shift in useful content would in turn shift the meta towards builds that can succeed at level cap.

Rewards are a carrot, and if you dangle a carrot you will lure players to do content, whether they want to or not.  It's an unfortunate truth, but it's also Game Design 101.  That's why my support for level cap gameplay is entirely contingent on there being absolutely no change to the reward tables.  I want level cap players to have the challenge they crave because that sounds like a nice little thing for them, but I will oppose such a change with ten times the ferocity if such a change would impact the game outside of that experience.

Level caps require a lot of preparation and experience that takes a while to get, most players are casual players who wouldn't be interested in such high risks with no room for tanking damage. So, as long as this Steel Path 2.0 doesn't have anything exclusive, how would their gameplay be affected? How would this change ruin the game? Nobody would be encouraged to try this ultimate difficulty (which isn't even that hard, besides). There are thousands of different ways to approach SP and hundreds of them for level caps, the concept of meta is based on what gets popular first because of videos on YouTube.

[(PSN)Unstar]

7 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

Nobody would be encouraged to try this ultimate difficulty

Rewards are the encouragement; that's why they cannot be there.

 

7 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

the concept of meta is based on what gets popular first because of videos on YouTube.

YouTubers have a disproportionate affect on the way aspects of the meta are communicated and thus propagated, but they don't create the meta.  The game itself is what shapes the meta: it creates the challenges, and it provides the tools, and what tools best solve those challenges are the true meta, regardless of what any YouTuber says.

 

10 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

How would this change ruin the game?

I wouldn't say ruin, but it would be meaningfully disruptive and negative to have the meta shift towards a much narrower subset of tools.  That's simply not good for the health of the game.

[VibingCat]

26 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Rewards are the encouragement; that's why they cannot be there.

They will prepare themselves if they wish to. Almost every game has several difficulties to choose from, why is Warframe always on easy mode?

 

28 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

what tools best solve those challenges are the true meta, regardless of what any YouTuber says.

I strongly disagree, meta combos are far from being ideal and none of them ever prevails thanks to nerfs. The only time a specific modding gets popular is when a YouTuber shared it.

 

32 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I wouldn't say ruin, but it would be meaningfully disruptive and negative to have the meta shift towards a much narrower subset of tools.  That's simply not good for the health of the game.

And I wouldn't say narrow, there exist a hundred weapons you could use for level cap. We have incarnon weapons now, most of them work pretty well but only a few happened to become "meta", without any particular reason. The existence of this new difficulty wouldn't directly cause any new meta, but if it actually happened, only players would be to be blamed for their laziness and lack of creativity.

[(PSN)Unstar]

13 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

49 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

1 hour ago, VibingCat said:

Nobody would be encouraged to try this ultimate difficulty

Rewards are the encouragement; that's why they cannot be there.

They will prepare themselves if they wish to. Almost every game has several difficulties to choose from, why is Warframe always on easy mode?

With respect, it seems like you replied to my counter-argument with something entirely unrelated; whether players will prepare themselves has no bearing on whether players are or aren't encouraged to try this content.  I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll ask plainly: does this mean that you're acknowledging that players would in fact be encouraged to try this content?

 

13 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

49 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

what tools best solve those challenges are the true meta, regardless of what any YouTuber says.

I strongly disagree, meta combos are far from being ideal and none of them ever prevails thanks to nerfs. The only time a specific modding gets popular is when a YouTuber shared it.

You're misunderstanding me.  There's what players think the meta is, and there's what the true meta is.  One lives in players' heads, the other is coded into the actual game as mathematical fact.  The latter is what I'm talking about.

 

14 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

And I wouldn't say narrow, there exist a hundred weapons you could use for level cap.

What word would you use that is a synonym for "narrow"?  Because the possibility space of frames and weapons that are capable of completing level cap content at a reasonable pace is narrower than those that can do the same at level 100; that's an undeniable fact that we can't deny while being honest.

Edited November 14, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar
posted too early

[VibingCat]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

does this mean that you're acknowledging that players would in fact be encouraged to try this content?

I think they wouldn't be either encouraged nor dissuaded. Just like any other game modes, one can choose not to play thanks to the fact its rewards are tradeable or obtainable in other ways. And yet, if they do feel encouraged to try level cap, I wouldn't mind that, actually it would be nice to have more people to share opinions and suggestions with.

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

You're misunderstanding me.  There's what players think the meta is, and there's what the true meta is.  One lives in players' heads, the other is coded into the actual game as mathematical fact.  The latter is what I'm talking about.

That's fine. The current meta doesn't work at higher levels and it doesn't have to. Just let people enjoy what they like playing, it doesn't affect me at all until riven disposition changes and other nerfs. Besides, there are so many meta options that we already have a lot of variety. 

The other day I did a level cap solo with Paris Prime, but I bet that this overpowered weapon wouldn't become popular even if I posted a video where I oneshot level 9999 demolysts in Steel Path, simply because - I think? - players don't like bows. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

the possibility space of frames and weapons that are capable of completing level cap content at a reasonable pace is narrower than those that can do the same at level 100

Having a narrower spectrum of great picks happens everywhere, think about Archon hunts, Plague Star, Orphix Venom, Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, Aya farm, Endo farms, fissure speedruns. We simply choose the best or at least something decent. Nobody is forcing anyone to use what's popular.

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 hours ago, VibingCat said:

Having a narrower spectrum of great picks happens everywhere, think about Archon hunts, Plague Star, Orphix Venom, Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, Aya farm, Endo farms, fissure speedruns. We simply choose the best or at least something decent.

Again, we are talking about two separate things.  I'm not talking about a narrow spectrum of great picks, but a narrower spectrum of what can actually reliably survive and progress at a decent rate.  There's a difference between content where a loadout gives you an edge versus content where a specific loadout changes the experience from a nightmare slog to something possible and reasonable.  I've accidentally queued for Archon Hunts with off-meta Warframes and weapons and it's been fine.  Not optimized, but not a significant challenge either.

But once enemy damage is capable of one-shotting a frame's health regardless of their mitigation, the viable methods of survival — and the corresponding pool of frames — is meaningfully reduced.  You're either shield-gating, invisible, or invincible.

 

2 hours ago, VibingCat said:

4 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

does this mean that you're acknowledging that players would in fact be encouraged to try this content?

I think they wouldn't be either encouraged nor dissuaded. Just like any other game modes, one can choose not to play thanks to the fact its rewards are tradeable or obtainable in other ways. And yet, if they do feel encouraged to try level cap, I wouldn't mind that, actually it would be nice to have more people to share opinions and suggestions with.

I'm doing my best to interpret this in good faith, but you're not making a sound argument.  Less optimal farms don't prevent players from being attracted to more optimal farms.  Case in point: many players are vocal about hating Plague Star, and yet these same players grind it anyway because it's an optimized way to get Forma; myriad other ways to get Forma exist, but those do not prevent players from being encouraged to do content they don't want to do.  Evidence demonstrates that if you put rewards somewhere, players will be drawn to them.

 

2 hours ago, VibingCat said:

That's fine. The current meta doesn't work at higher levels and it doesn't have to.

This is where we disagree then; I don't see it as fine.  Or rather, I'm fine if there's outlier-grade high-level content where things get more restrictive; what I'm not fine with is that content being normalized.  DE keeps doing great work to make more weapons and frames viable, and I think that's the direction the game should continue to go; this would be a hefty step in the wrong direction.

 

I have a question for you: if you want to do level-cap content, and the option to do that easily was offered to you, why is that alone not good enough?  Why is it that you wouldn't be satisfied without increased rewards?

Edited November 15, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar
typo

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

10 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Circuit are much faster, [...]. Depending on whether you are in a team or solo, you can get the time down to 1 to 3 hours, depending on such variables

Ok interesting thanks. I must've been at or near level cap a couple times then in SP circuit as I was playing for ~2 hours twice l, maybe three times. I suppose with decrees, it was more manageable for me 

[VibingCat]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

But once enemy damage is capable of one-shotting a frame's health regardless of their mitigation, the viable methods of survival — and the corresponding pool of frames — is meaningfully reduced.  You're either shield-gating, invisible, or invincible.

Almost every warframe can shield gate, so almost every warframe can survive without having a nightmare-like gameplay. Don't forget about Vazarin and the trick of killing your enemies before they can attack you while you're doing parkour over their heads.

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

many players are vocal about hating Plague Star, and yet these same players grind it anyway because it's an optimized way to get Forma; myriad other ways to get Forma exist, but those do not prevent players from being encouraged to do content they don't want to do.  Evidence demonstrates that if you put rewards somewhere, players will be drawn to them

If you're afraid that level-cap gamemode could be similar to Plague Star in that way you described, does it mean you're ferociously against this event? If so, why exactly? Note that PS is much more restrictive than level cap if you want an optimised co-operative squad. And it's also boring (especially the second stage!) and extremely repetitive, so if that's fine, then level-cap must be fun in comparison since it could be any mission type against any faction, and it really is.

 

6 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

what I'm not fine with is that content being normalized.  DE keeps doing great work to make more weapons and frames viable,

If we have to pretend that level 200 is our top difficulty, then it doesn't matter how many formas you install, what great synergies you find, how well your team works together, how much strength you give your warframe, because it's going to be easy-peasy whatever you do. That does not incentivise effort and skills at all. Level-cap may deserve a slight rework, however I still consider it a doable difficulty which is incredibly easier than most other games' hardest difficulty such as God of War and Ultimate Doom.

 

6 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

if you want to do level-cap content, and the option to do that easily was offered to you, why is that alone not good enough?  Why is it that you wouldn't be satisfied without increased rewards?

I would accept it and play it, of course. Logically it would be a bit unfair, knowing that Steel Path has increased rewards although many players keep a distance from it since they believe it's too hard. I would still play it because personally I have farmed pretty much everything and my only goal left is to have fun with challenges, experimenting as much as possible, yet without giving up on rewards.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

 

Seems context is a concept that still eludes you, or you are trying to be deceitful again and create false narratives. Given your history, it could be both. The irrefutable proof I refer to would be the proof referred to in bold. There is limited use in discussing more nuanced topics with someone like you given your proclivity to deny irrefutable proof, such as fairly basic math and visual proof that can be verified. Your latest reply contains points you've already made and I already addressed, a year ago. We are better served with you reading the old discussions instead of you regurgitating your points here. They've been addressed - I'm not going to do it here again because you are lazy and/or need attention.

There was no proof in that discussion since you failed to fathom the concept of practical use vs theory. Since that discussion started with you wanting to add a simple trash mob with more health and claimed it would incentivice the use of single target weapons. While a simple basic mob with more health brings no incentive whatsoever, which is what I tried to explain to you. I even told you that if it was a discussion about bosses or other priority targets it would be a different story. 

Not that any of this of which you bring up has anything to do with what was discussed here. Plus that discussion ended in september when I stopped engaging with you in the PMs you for some reason started instead of keeping the topic in the thread that was proper for the topic at hand. Did it vex you that I stopped answering you even though you had the last word? It must have when you bring it up in a completely unrelated discussion. I mean, they arent even remotely close.

Oh and you are still wrong about WF and P2W and P2W in general. To be perfectly clear, the word wrong cant even describe it properly since you are so far beyond that.

[Thorham]

On 2023-11-13 at 3:56 AM, Skoomaseller said:

they should allow level cap spawns in the simulacrum honestly 

Indeed. Just allow any level, sortie conditions, and steel path like enemy buffs.

[(PSN)Unstar]

12 hours ago, VibingCat said:

19 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

many players are vocal about hating Plague Star, and yet these same players grind it anyway because it's an optimized way to get Forma; myriad other ways to get Forma exist, but those do not prevent players from being encouraged to do content they don't want to do.  Evidence demonstrates that if you put rewards somewhere, players will be drawn to them

If you're afraid that level-cap gamemode could be similar to Plague Star in that way you described, does it mean you're ferociously against this event? If so, why exactly? Note that PS is much more restrictive than level cap if you want an optimised co-operative squad. And it's also boring (especially the second stage!) and extremely repetitive, so if that's fine, then level-cap must be fun in comparison since it could be any mission type against any faction, and it really is.

I assume that you are an intelligent and capable person, so I trust that if you take a step back, slow down, and put in a genuine effort, you will see how what you're saying here has no logical connection to the sentences you responded to.  I will leave that as an exercise for you to accomplish on your own.

With that, this is where I'm going to respectfully bow out of our exchange.  Whether due to carelessness or bad faith, enough of the counter-arguments you put forth have been strawmen that this conversation has become draining rather than a positive exchange of ideas.  Thank you for the parts of our exchange that were fruitful.