Strun incarnon AoE radial damage is force proc-ing impact status even though it has 0 impact damage.

[_.Hisoka._]

Hi DE,

There is an issue with impact damage and strun prime incarnon.

Strun Prime incarnon radial damage is force proc-ing impact status even with 0 impact damage and even with -100% impact damage rivens.

It is the same for the incarnon projectile proc-ing impact status as well even after eliminating impact element with -100% impact damage riven.

*UPDATE* Even with negative 100% impact riven, you can still proc impact status from the projectile making contact and this is based on status chance. It is not forced proc on the projectile making contact but even if you eliminate impact damage completely from the projectile you are still procing impact status based on your status chance... which is extremely weird. PLEASE FIX.
 

Strun Incarnon mode radial damage elements...

Strun incarnon mode with no mods equipped... (surrounding targets are receiving forced impact procs)

 

Even with -100% impact riven equipped...

Edited November 14, 2023 by _.Hisoka._

[Tiltskillet]

What's your feedback, exactly?  Do you want forced impact on the explosions removed?

 

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

weapons like the War have this effect too. its normal. not a bug.

-someone who has a -100% impact war riven

Edited November 13, 2023 by (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika

[taiiat]

it's not an issue necessarily. there's numerous things in the game which have Forced Status. this is a feature, generally.
it's possible this isn't an intended feature of this particular Weapon, but who's to say it is or isn't.

[LittleLeoniePrime]

it's called a shotgun. Most of them force proc impact. It's the reason Hemorrage/Internal Bleeding don't exist for shotguns (least that's my guess as to why)

[Pakaku]

Keep in mind the wiki is not a direct part of the game, it is a collection of research from the community, and so there can be wrong, missing, or outdated info. If the Strun is intended to have forced impact procs, then someone needs to update the wiki

[_.Hisoka._]

Hope someone can confirm it. It is normal to have impact damage on the shell/pallet/glaive/slug exiting from shotguns, which the strun has too... but not normal having impact or forced impact from radial damage.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

My guess? Either:

1. You've got 0% damage on impact, which results in a 0% chance that a status proc will be impact, but with a status chance over 100% the game forces a second status proc and the second one cannot be the same as the first, forcing the second proc to be impact (because the weapon still technically has impact as a damage type, even if it is 0)
2. The incarnon form delivers an inherent, guaranteed impact proc, just like the latron incarnon form.

Im leaning toward number 2, as when i remove all status boosts from the weapon (resulting in a 48% status chance in incarnon form) i cannot seem to be able to fire a shot that does NOT proc impact, whilst still being able to proc 2 statuses at the same time.

[_.Hisoka._]

39 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

My guess? Either:

1. You've got 0% damage on impact, which results in a 0% chance that a status proc will be impact, but with a status chance over 100% the game forces a second status proc and the second one cannot be the same as the first, forcing the second proc to be impact (because the weapon still technically has impact as a damage type, even if it is 0)
2. The incarnon form delivers an inherent, guaranteed impact proc, just like the latron incarnon form.

Im leaning toward number 2, as when i remove all status boosts from the weapon (resulting in a 48% status chance in incarnon form) i cannot seem to be able to fire a shot that does NOT proc impact, whilst still being able to proc 2 statuses at the same time.

Point 1 is wrong. If element dmg is neutralized then there should be no more proc.
If you have 0% status chance on a force impact proc weapon, you will still proc 1 impact.
If you have 100% status chance on a forced impact proc weapon, you will proc 1 impact and 1 more elemental proc guaranteed.

Point 2 seems to be the case as radial damage is force proc-ing impact, just want to know if this is intended or not because its not the norm.

Latron incarnon's radial damage does not proc any impact, only the plasma ball that comes into direct contact with the target procs the impact. This is how it is for most weapons.

Edited November 13, 2023 by _.Hisoka._

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

but not normal having impact or forced impact from radial damage.

The Chakkhurr would like to have a word.

1 hour ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

Latron incarnon's radial damage does not proc any impact, only the plasma ball that comes into direct contact with the target procs the impact. This is how it is for most weapons.

It's called a "forced proc". The weapon doesn't need to have it in its damage spread to proc it. It's similar to Hunter Munitions, Stance mods, Garuda's 4, many weapons, etc... They're quite common.

Edited November 13, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[_.Hisoka._]

Yes Chakkhurr is one of the few exceptions. Which is why I wanna know if strun being an exception is also intended.

Yes it doesn't need to have impact in its damage spread if a weapon has force proc impact. Which is why I wanna know if strun radial is supposed to force proc impact as it is not mentioned anywhere else. Quite surprising considering the incarnon has been out for quite some time.

Edited November 13, 2023 by _.Hisoka._

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

Hope someone can confirm it.

I confirmed it's got forced impact on the radial damage after you posted yesterday.  I thought about adding it to the wiki, but decided it would be better if somebody could confirm on one or more of the other Struns.  If it's just the Prime, then it looks like a bug...although one could  guess the other weapons are bugged in not having forced impact.  Only DE could clear that up completely.

 

16 minutes ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

Which is why I wanna know if strun radial is supposed to force proc impact as it is not mentioned anywhere else. Quite surprising considering the incarnon has been out for quite some time.

It is unusual, but I wouldn't say it's that surprising.  Human beings test the weapons and enter the wiki info for stuff like this, and not everybody has -100% impact Strun  rivens.  And since Internal Bleeding isn't slottable on shotguns, there's no great advantage to it.  Nor is the impact particularly annoying like it would be on a non-AoE or lower damage weapon.

 * * *

Long story short, it would be nice if forced procs were spelled out in game for weapons like they are for melee weapon stances.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Numerous weapons trigger specific status types even though they're not modded for it. Prime example for it is if you mod your Lenz for some elemental combo that would otherwise remove Cold, it's still going to guarantee proc cold on the initial freezing phase of the implosion.

Best you can do is check wether it's the projectile making contact or just the radial damage being a forced impact proc. Highly doubt it's a bug.

[Tiltskillet]

58 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Best you can do is check wether it's the projectile making contact or just the radial damage being a forced impact proc.

It's definitely just the radial component.  No, I goofed, it's definitely both.  I was thinking the Incarnon projectiles had inherent multi, but they don't.  I actually have a -impact riven, although only -78%, so if weight the weapon heavily toward rad and cold, Impact is only 4% of the payload on the projectile hit. 

With 0 multi, I always get two impact procs.  With 120% multishot, I nearly  always get 4 impact procs, sometimes 5, and never less than 4.   Half are from the radial instance, and there's no way 4% impact weighting is resulting in the rest over about 50 shots.

58 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Highly doubt it's a bug.

Me too, but I'd like to hear from somebody who's Icarnononanated something other than Strun Prime.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

14 hours ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

Point 1 is wrong. If element dmg is neutralized then there should be no more proc.
If you have 0% status chance on a force impact proc weapon, you will still proc 1 impact.
If you have 100% status chance on a forced impact proc weapon, you will proc 1 impact and 1 more elemental proc guaranteed.

Point 2 seems to be the case as radial damage is force proc-ing impact, just want to know if this is intended or not because its not the norm.

Latron incarnon's radial damage does not proc any impact, only the plasma ball that comes into direct contact with the target procs the impact. This is how it is for most weapons.

ive never eliminated an inherent damage type like that before, so i have a question;

When you reduce the damage type to zero, does it disappear completely from the UI, or does it say something like "Impact = 0.0"?

[_.Hisoka._]

8 hours ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

ive never eliminated an inherent damage type like that before, so i have a question;

When you reduce the damage type to zero, does it disappear completely from the UI, or does it say something like "Impact = 0.0"?

For elements it will disappear completely from the UI.
For other stats it may not. Egs. my phenmor with - crit chance riven shows -2.6 Crit chance, a negative value.

[_.Hisoka._]

20 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

It's definitely just the radial component.  No, I goofed, it's definitely both.  I was thinking the Incarnon projectiles had inherent multi, but they don't.  I actually have a -impact riven, although only -78%, so if weight the weapon heavily toward rad and cold, Impact is only 4% of the payload on the projectile hit. 

With 0 multi, I always get two impact procs.  With 120% multishot, I nearly  always get 4 impact procs, sometimes 5, and never less than 4.   Half are from the radial instance, and there's no way 4% impact weighting is resulting in the rest over about 50 shots.

Me too, but I'd like to hear from somebody who's Icarnononanated something other than Strun Prime.

I tested it already. 

Every single radial instance from each bullet of the multi-shot will force proc 1 impact. If you have 4 multi shot which allows you to release 4 bullets per shot and you shoot the floor near the enemy. Each radial instance created from the 4 bullet, as long as target is within the radial range will cause 1 impact proc. That is a total of 4 impact proc FORCED on the enemy.

The above is excluding targeting the enemy directly. If you hit the enemy directly you are likely to add on to the impact proc from the bullets making contact with the enemy and this part is dependent on your status chance. If you have a negative 100% impact riven here, you will not create any impact procs from the bullets making direct contact with the enemy. *EDIT* There is a bug here, even with negative 100% impact riven, you can still proc impact status from the projectile making contact and it is based on status chance. PLEASE FIX, its not forced proc on the projectile making contact but even if you eliminate impact damage completely from the projectile you are still procing impact status based on your status chance... which is extremely weird.

Edited November 14, 2023 by _.Hisoka._

[Mazifet]

22 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

The Chakkhurr would like to have a word.

And epitaph

[_.Hisoka._]

40 minutes ago, Mazifet said:

And epitaph

nope, epitaph is forced proc cold from radial. Only projectile contact is forced proc impact.

[Mazifet]

1 hour ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

projectile contact is forced proc impact

which is what i was referring to

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

The above is excluding targeting the enemy directly. If you hit the enemy directly you are likely to add on to the impact proc from the bullets making contact with the enemy and this part is dependent on your status chance. If you have a negative 100% impact riven here, you will not create any impact procs from the bullets making direct contact with the enemy.

So something odd is happening if you're sure about that.  I've done a number of different tests, all leading to the conclusion that the Incarnon projectile has forced impact as well.  The simplest one is to take off all mods, and make sure the punch through Evo 1 and the pure crit Evo 2 are selected.  This gives the Incarnon projectile pure impact with a 46% status chance, and no natural impact on the Incarnon radial component.  And very importantly: no multishot. 

If I do that, and hit a target directly in Incarnon mode, I get 3 impact procs about half the time.*  The maximum impact procs should be two if there is no forced impact on projectile contact:  one forced from the AoE, and one natural if the status chance on the projectile component rolls successfully.  

If you run the same test with your -impact riven, and  you ever get only one impact proc on a direct hit, then something interesting is happening that I can't readily explain with known mechanics and the stats as shown in the Arsenal.

_{*And sometimes a fourth non-impact proc: blast, puncture, or slash from natural status on the radial explosion.}

[_.Hisoka._]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

So something odd is happening if you're sure about that.  I've done a number of different tests, all leading to the conclusion that the Incarnon projectile has forced impact as well.  The simplest one is to take off all mods, and make sure the punch through Evo 1 and the pure crit Evo 2 are selected.  This gives the Incarnon projectile pure impact with a 46% status chance, and no natural impact on the Incarnon radial component.  And very importantly: no multishot. 

If I do that, and hit a target directly in Incarnon mode, I get 3 impact procs about half the time.*  The maximum impact procs should be two if there is no forced impact on projectile contact:  one forced from the AoE, and one natural if the status chance on the projectile component rolls successfully.  

If you run the same test with your -impact riven, and  you ever get only one impact proc on a direct hit, then something interesting is happening that I can't readily explain with known mechanics and the stats as shown in the Arsenal.

_{*And sometimes a fourth non-impact proc: blast, puncture, or slash from natural status on the radial explosion.}

I believe you meant punch through evo 2 and pure crit evo 4 are selected.

Lol you are right, it is still proc-ing impact based on the 46% status chance from the projectile making contact WHEN IT SHOULDNT AT ALL with a -100% impact riven. I can see in my stats that the impact damage has been removed completely from the projectile. Also It is not a forced proc... its still procing based on status chance. ZZzzzzz.

This is most certainly a bug and we need DE to clarify.

Edited November 14, 2023 by _.Hisoka._

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

I believe you meant punch through evo 2 and pure crit evo 4 are selected.

That's right, sorry.

 

1 hour ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

Lol you are right, it is still proc-ing impact based on the 46% status chance from the projectile making contact WHEN IT SHOULDNT AT ALL with a -100% impact riven. I can see in my stats that the impact damage has been removed completely from the projectile. Also It is not a forced proc... its still procing based on status chance. ZZzzzzz.

Just want to be clear on this...Are you ever getting more than 2 impact procs? With a -100% impact riven,  no multishot, and no external sources of impact like pets, the simple explanation for two procs is forced impact on both the explosion and projectile.   Forced procs have no problem triggering from damage instances that lack their damage type.

If you are seeing 3 or more, even once in a while, that'd be interesting.

What are the exact stats on your riven?

Edited November 14, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[_.Hisoka._]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Just want to be clear on this...Are you ever getting more than 2 impact procs? With a -100% impact riven,  no multishot, and no external sources of impact like pets, the simple explanation for two procs is forced impact on both the explosion and projectile.   Forced procs have no problem triggering from damage instances that lack their damage type.

If you are seeing 3 or more, even once in a while, that'd be interesting.

What are the exact stats on your riven?

Yes I am getting more than 2 impact procs with no external sources. The two procs are from the RADIAL that are FORCED, so the two procs are GUARANTEED (you can test this by shooting the floor and you will still get 2 impact procs) . More than 2 impact procs FROM PROJECTILE are are NON-GUARANTEED but also occurring from time to time and the only explanation is because those procs are status chance driven even though I have completely removed impact element from the projectile damage itself.

My riven has multishot but I have already factored it in.

Edited November 14, 2023 by _.Hisoka._

[Tiltskillet]

56 minutes ago, _.Hisoka._ said:

Yes I am getting more than 2 impact procs with no external sources. The two procs are from the RADIAL that are FORCED, so the two procs are GUARANTEED (you can test this by shooting the floor and you will still get 2 impact procs) . More than 2 impact procs FROM PROJECTILE are are NON-GUARANTEED but also occurring from time to time and the only explanation is because those procs are status chance driven even though I have completely removed impact element from the projectile damage itself.

My riven has multishot but I have already factored it in.

Since you have multishot  you should be getting between 4 and 6  procs from forced impact alone on direct hits. i.e., a minimum of 2 on both the projectile and AoE, with a 36% chance of 3 on each.

Ever seen more than 6?