Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[darklord122]

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

There’s nothing special about your build, I’ll end up with the same exact components in due time, probably make the same exact build accidentally, and then decide it’s not for me or not what I want to use for multiplayer, and boom, it’s set to the side if not broken apart. No muss, no fuss, my team isn’t sidelined and I’m playing the game instead of wondering why the extraction point in a randomly generated tileset is 700 metres away instead of 400 because 400 gives me optimal grind speed. And that’s the key part; I’m not limited. Invigorations, Arbitration bonuses, those little cracks on the wall in Lua, Relic buffs, every mod, companion, weapon, Warframe, school, gearwheel item, every combination of everything has a place to use it, and I’m not having to sit around not moving due to Too Much Powah destroying my teammate’s gameplay because I know how much powah is too much and can just make a different build that I want to use, and I’m doing everything you can do on top of it.

You see why I’m playing the victim card on your behalf? Because I look at you, and think “My god, I’m glad I’m not like you, because that sounds miserable and not very fun”. Amongst all that frustration of dealing with you and your buddies, there’s pity. And you can spin that however you like, at the end of the day, the only limit anyone imposes on me is when you steal the game away, and I didn’t even want to match with you in the first place, so a mere filter will top everything off

Playing the victim card when you are the only one who has turned yourself into one. While other players play the game unbothered you have a problem with them.

Then claim your build measures up to the ones you complain about yet somehow cant keep up with said people, Thats a logical fallacy if ive ever seen one.

And if you meet people who map wide kill everything in every mission you play on tilesets and missions where killing sometimes isnt even needed period then in all of my thousands of hours of play you are the most unluckiest player ive ever come across.

One does not have to put in specific use cases for their builds and you still cant understand that. Doesn't matter if we "won" when the whole point was to make you realize that being self centered in your builds does not get you any brownie points when everyone wants to play in their own way and you only want people to play your way.

And if we so are meant to use builds in specific scenarios on specific missions at specific levels, Please do specify. Cause there is not a single instruction, incentive, description or anything telling people they have to GIB their build to conform to how other players want them to play or how to play on any mission that is open to everyone. 

In-fact the game does everything it can to get you to grind as fast as possible on every conceivable level as Tsukinoki has already stated above but you've blatantly put a blind eye to the amount of things the game actively rewards you for. All those bonuses you spoke of are applicable almost anywhere and not just for your specific build.

And you ask for a filter that would either segregate the community, Level the entire playing field thus making all builds pointless, or not work period due to people still matching with your "Multiplayer vs soloplayer filtered matchmaking" which does not even make any sense cause people would still use it in a way you wouldn't want.

We don't limit a single thing you can do, You limit yourself then get frustrated when that limit isn't set on others so you can get your way and your way only. There still ways for you to keep up with everyone else you just don't want to do that when you claim you can.

So go ahead and play the way you want. No-one said anything otherwise. And no-one will stop you either. Just don't blame others for it.

Edited February 7 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

15 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Playing the victim card when you are the only one who has turned yourself into one. While other players play the game unbothered you have a problem with them.

Then claim your build measures up to the ones you complain about yet somehow cant keep up with said people, Thats a logical fallacy if ive ever seen one.

And if you meet people who map wide kill everything in every mission you play on tilesets and missions where killing sometimes isnt even needed period then in all of my thousands of hours of play you are the most unluckiest player ive ever come across.

One does not have to put in specific use cases for their builds and you still cant understand that. Doesn't matter if we "won" when the whole point was to make you realize that being self centered in your builds does not get you any brownie points when everyone wants to play in their own way and you only want people to play your way.

And if we so are meant to use builds in specific scenarios on specific missions at specific levels, Please do specify. Cause there is not a single instruction, incentive, description or anything telling people they have to GIB their build to conform to how other players want them to play or how to play on any mission that is open to everyone. 

In-fact the game does everything it can to get you to grind as fast as possible on every conceivable level as Tsukinoki has already stated above but you've blatantly put a blind eye to the amount of things the game actively rewards you for. All those bonuses you spoke of are applicable almost anywhere and not just for your specific build.

And you ask for a filter that would either segregate the community, Level the entire playing field thus making all builds pointless, or not work period due to people still matching with your "Multiplayer vs soloplayer filtered matchmaking" which does not even make any sense cause people would still use it in a way you wouldn't want.

We don't limit a single thing you can do, You limit yourself then get frustrated when that limit isn't set on others so you can get your way and your way only. There still ways for you to keep up with everyone else you just don't want to do that when you claim you can.

So go ahead and play the way you want. No-one said anything otherwise. And no-one will stop you either. Just don't blame others for it.

I don’t want people playing my way I just don’t want them playing yours because yours is the one that takes away the gameplay for others because you’re jumping into content not designed for it while blaming the game for your piss-poor sense of restraint for others.

You’re the troll who has the ability to actually impact someone else’s gameplay in a negative way!! Because you’re the one calling all the shots! Stop it! Get out of the damn mission or rebuild accordingly!

[Merkranire]

28 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Then claim your build measures up to the ones you complain about yet somehow cant keep up with said people, Thats a logical fallacy if ive ever seen one. 

What???

[darklord122]

13 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I don’t want people playing my way I just don’t want them playing yours because yours is the one that takes away the gameplay for others because you’re jumping into content not designed for it while blaming the game for your piss-poor sense of restraint for others.

You’re the troll who has the ability to actually impact someone else’s gameplay in a negative way!! Because you’re the one calling all the shots! Stop it! Get out of the damn mission or rebuild accordingly!

You want people to restrain themselves in a game fundamentally about build freedom and optimizations and everyone gets to dictate the way the play for their own experience.

No mission type is inherently forced to abide by your preferences to what people should play accordingly and the game actively encourages fast gameplay for important rewards.We dont call the shots we just built over you and you stay in the backline feeling sorry for yourself when you have every opportunity not to be behind yet you somehow still want to do that.

Everyone can impact everyone's game-play in this game or anyone else's game and no experience can always be positive nor negative.

Fundamentally understand that or maybe you need to consider other games.


No mission forces you to abide to anything, Nothing in the game, The rules, The instructions tell you to nerf yourself accordingly. You've put that mindset in as necessity. Not every high end player will ruin any game. Nor will they show up in every mission, Thats impossible.

So until you realize the game is about build freedom then you will always experience frustration from others.

2 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

What???

"I know how much powah is too much and can just make a different build that I want to use, and I’m doing everything you can do on top of it. "

Reading comprehension.

Edited February 7 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

Just now, darklord122 said:

You want people to restrain themselves in a game fundamentally about build freedom and optimizations and everyone gets to dictate the way the play for their own experience.

No mission type is inherently forced to abide by your preferences to what people should play accordingly and the game actively encourages fast gameplay for important rewards.We dont call the shots we just built over you and you stay in the backline feeling sorry for yourself when you have every opportunity not to be behind yet you somehow still want to do that.

Everyone can impact everyone's game-play in this game or anyone else's game and no experience can always be positive nor negative.

Fundamentally understand that or maybe you need to consider other games.


No mission forces you to abide to anything, Nothing in the game, The rules, The instructions tell you to nerf yourself accordingly. You've put that mindset in as necessity. Not every high end player will ruin any game. Nor will they show up in every mission, Thats impossible.

So until you realize the game is about build freedom then you will always experience frustration from others.

I know the game is about build freedom, where you take it is worth considering and how you build for it is part of that consideration, and go to solo if you want to one-man army everything because by dint of being a one-man army, you’re the one man army.

With freedom comes responsibility when you start engaging with others, and if you can’t stomach that you’re not always going to be welcome and if you can’t show some modicum of restraint for the sake of others, stop engaging with others

[Merkranire]

5 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

"I know how much powah is too much and can just make a different build that I want to use, and I’m doing everything you can do on top of it. "

Reading comprehension.

Yeah, you failed at it. If I’m making a different build, I’m not exactly making the same build, am I? But I can make that build that Ervin uses too, so I can do what Ervin does too

[darklord122]

17 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I know the game is about build freedom, where you take it is worth considering and how you build for it is part of that consideration, and go to solo if you want to one-man army everything because by dint of being a one-man army, you’re the one man army.

With freedom comes responsibility when you start engaging with others, and if you can’t stomach that you’re not always going to be welcome and if you can’t show some modicum of restraint for the sake of others, stop engaging with others

The others knew well when they said you do not listen.

You also have the freedom to build higher up yet you do not do that.

Will you be mad if the other 3 on your team are endgame geared as well? Meaning you are the odd one out. And knowing this game that majority tends to happen alot.
Im not forced to go anywhere and you only think of that as sabotage but you never stop to think that the players you try and put down to your way of building are actually considerate but you are too blind to see it, Not everyone at high end annihilates everything that exists.

And in alot of cases especially now building to high end has become so easy you can basically do it at the start. So feel free to blame old and new players alike for sticking to what they want to do. 

I mean hell some warframes can annihilate on base, Like Kullervo, Hydroid, Gauss, Grendel, And many many more especially with current standard reworks.

The game would be watered down if everyone played the way you do. Stop assuming every experience is due to other players faults when there is plenty to do in missions as is. Aint no way in hell you are encountering map wide exterminating warframes on the regular thats simply not possible. You can even force enemy spawns if its so frustrating for you and its more than simple enough for anyone to do.
There cant possibly be nothing.

So feel free to blame everything and everyone about a "problem" that somehow subsists for you as a constant while the majority rarely if ever experience that.

14 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Yeah, you failed at it. If I’m making a different build, I’m not exactly making the same build, am I? But I can make that build that Ervin uses too, so I can do what Ervin does too

If you are making a different build yet take the same philosophy you keep at hand nothing has really changed.

So reading comprehension.

Edited February 7 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

23 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

The others knew well when they said you do not listen.

You also have the freedom to build higher up yet you do not do that.

Will you be mad if the other 3 on your team are endgame geared as well? Meaning you are the odd one out. And knowing this game that majority tends to happen alot.
Im not forced to go anywhere and you only think of that as sabotage but you never stop to think that the players you try and put down to your way of building are actually considerate but you are too blind to see it.

And in alot of cases especially now building to high end has become so easy you can basically do it at the start. So feel free to blame old and new players alike for sticking to what they want to do. 

I mean hell some warframes can annihilate on base, Like Kullervo, Hydroid, Gauss, Grendel, And many many more especially with current standard reworks.

The game would be watered down if everyone played the way you do. Stop assuming every experience is due to other players faults when there is plenty to do in missions as is. Aint no way in hell you are encountering map wide exterminating warframes on the regular thats simply not possible. You can even force enemy spawns if its so frustrating for you and it more than simple enough for anyone.

While you’re unable to see how you being the higher-built (note the word “Built”) player in a mission not designed for what you’re bringing and with no-one asking for you to be there, every time you talk about consideration I can only think it’s some kind of warped definition; there’s a reason pulling something like that in something like WoW is a faux pax and is why some games try to autoscale players.

Like Damage Attenuation is trying in a really simple way that doesn’t work nearly as well as just knowing what you’re built for, but let’s ignore that for now, because obviously it was meant to be something we solve for instead of an equal playing field.

And you can’t even peg why my building higher for content that already does not support what you’re bringing does not solve anything, so… you win again? Because otherwise this is going to go on and on while I try and educate you on the finer points of playing alongside others versus playing solo in multiplayer, and it’ll all be wasted breath anyways.

23 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

If you are making a different build yet take the same philosophy you keep at hand nothing has really changed.

So reading comprehension.

What. This one I’ll freely admit I have no idea what you’re talking about

Edited February 8 by Merkranire

[darklord122]

24 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

While you’re unable to see how you being the higher-built (note the word “Built”) player in a mission not designed for what you’re bringing and with no-one asking for you to be there, every time you talk about consideration I can only think it’s some kind of warped definition; there’s a reason pulling something like that in something like WoW is a faux pax and is why most games try to autoscale players.

Like Damage Attenuation is trying in a really simple way that doesn’t work nearly as well as just knowing what you’re built for, but let’s ignore that for now, because obviously it was meant to be something we solve for instead of an equal playing.

And you can’t even peg why my building higher for content that already does not support what you’re bringing does not solve anything, so… you win again? Because otherwise this is going to go on and on while I try and educate you on the finer points of playing alongside others versus playing solo in multiplayer, and it’ll all be wasted breath anyways.

What. This one I’ll freely admit I have no idea what you’re talking about

Just as you understanding the finer points of people having freedom to build high and play in a game that incentivizes such gameplay is a waste of breath as well.

People are not inconsiderate for playing their way, Nor are they constantly stealing away entire missions for others under them because of it. If it was that big of an issue the entire game would have been brought down half a decade ago.

So until the entire game gets reworked, Flattens the endgame and equalizes everyone making builds pointless to begin with and also stops bringing in increasingly stronger things to get yet keep materials easier to get in normal missions, feel free to build to be "considerate" to others when the majority builds to overcome the obstacles in-front of them and not just stay equalized to them.

If being built to be strong is wrong most MMO/MMORPG's wouldn't exist. As this is something that will happen anywhere not just warframe.

Ill just enjoy the game like anyone else. And somehow not have these things be a constant.

Edited February 8 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

9 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Just as you understanding the finer points of people having freedom to build high and play in a game that incentivizes such gameplay is a waste of breath as well.

People are not inconsiderate for playing their way, Nor are they constantly stealing away entire missions for others under them because of it. If it was that big of an issue the entire game would have been brought down half a decade ago.

So until the entire game gets reworked, Flattens the endgame and equalizes everyone making builds pointless to begin with and also stops bringing in increasingly stronger things to get yet keep materials easier to get in normal missions, feel free to build to be "considerate" to others when the majority builds to overcome the obstacles in-front of them and not just stay equalized to them.

If being built to be strong is wrong most RPG's wouldn't exist. As this is something that will happen anywhere not just warframe.

I know that this game is about build freedom, and I’m saying that with that freedom comes a responsibility when you start playing with another player.

And in many if not most cases, you’ve invented an incentive system of your own; the game never needed you to make the most Meta of builds, the game never tasked you with completing an Exterminate in 3 minutes or less, it actually tried to do what you could not and forced variation onto you through Duviri’s randomiser or tried to tone down your overkill through Damage Attenuation, the game has all these enemy designs and modifiers and systems and then gives you options to address them like PSF if you want to point-blank yourself with a rocket or Inaros to take to a no-shield modifier but the game certainly has little rules.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I can't believe people are still arguing with this guy lmfao

Edited February 8 by (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz

[darklord122]

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I know that this game is about build freedom, and I’m saying that with that freedom comes a responsibility when you start playing with another player.

And in many if not most cases, you’ve invented an incentive system of your own; the game never needed you to make the most Meta of builds, the game never tasked you with completing an Exterminate in 3 minutes or less, it actually tried to do what you could not and forced variation onto you through Duviri’s randomiser or tried to tone down your overkill through Damage Attenuation, the game has all these enemy designs and modifiers and systems and then gives you options to address them like PSF if you want to point-blank yourself with a rocket or Inaros to take to a no-shield modifier but the game certainly has little rules.

If inventing a incentive system means the game lays out strong weapons on a platter and actively encourages you to only get stronger then I guess the entire community has invented it and not DE, The ones who keep adding the systems for it.

While Duviri has forced variation they add yet another system to incentivize getting stronger, The magical thing called Intrinsics. Where not only do they affect duviri gameplay it even affects overworld gameplay and makes your operator actively stronger and increases the impact and strength of your circuit/duviri builds. You made an example to tone people down in a mode where you actively get told you can always do better, Even better yet on top of that the warframes you get selected have the builds you despise. So your argument falls flat even before it begins.

Damage Attenuation while helping add challenge does not mean the game tells you that because you are built strong you are playing the game wrong. If anything it gives you an obstacle to get over and keeps doing that on every conceivable level. Added challenge and toning down warframe based abilities on said challenging enemies does not = you are too strong. If that was ever a considered thing the enemies damage would tone you down much harsher across everywhere. Which it does not.

These little "rules" as you say are more suggestions and options for you to overcome the obstacles warframe puts in your way. The game never tasks you to play a certain way, And as a byproduct with everything else tells you you can play how you want.

Everyone makes their own fun, Thats the point of a game after all. So let people do that.

High end players arent tyrannical rulers of the underclass players. Most of them are even more then happy to help new and or struggling players cause everyone wants more people in this game.

So stop acting as if high end players rule over everything a player can accomplish in missions, They actively do not.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

I can't believe people are still arguing with this guy lmfao

Got nothing better to do, Sitting in a survival rn. With somewhat lower end players might I add who are doing just fine unlike what Merk wants you to believe lol.

Edited February 8 by darklord122

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2024-01-19 at 12:38 PM, Zinxori- said:

Say you got yourself a shiny new Gotva Prime from the Twitch Prime rewards, and you were itching to try it out in a mission. You pull up a Exterminate Fissure mission on Public matchmaking, just to increase the chances of a good reward. However, inevitably, and as many of you witnessed I'm sure whether you've been playing for 5 days or 2 weeks, that IDIOTS with no consideration for the others in the squad, will bring some ridiculous "nuke build" to Exterminate mission and blast all the enemies to hell in like 2-3 casts, and the mission is over before you even aimed up your weapon.

To some this is probably fine, and I'll sound like a complainer, but at MR27 and playing since 2015, I've seen every decent "nuke build" from Mirage Simulor to stuff like Saryn 4th spam in the current age. In things like Defense missions where the time to finish can go up due to enemies being spread out everywhere, using a wide-range, powerful nuking setup is ABSOLUTELY VALID AND UNDERSTANDABLE. But in a simple Axi Exterminate mission??? C'mon let me just shoot my Gotva and leave happy. I know I cannot be the only player who feels this way, but I'm probably one of few who would actually make a whole forum post about it. I hope this reaches players and that it generates a healthy discussion on why Nuke Builds should be UNACCEPTABLE in a simple mission like an Exterminate. Have respect for your fellow Tenno and LET THEM PLAY THE GAME TOO, or you'll risk stepping on someone's toes, even if you don't know it, or didn't intend it that way.

We both chose public.  I don't control you; you don't control me.  I am in pub for the same reason you are.  More chances at different rewards.  I am there to get the mission done and roll the dice.  I am going to go fast.  You have to put up with that.  You are there to try and play cover shooter in a game populated with "nuke-builds", and there's a really good chance that you or others are going to take six eternities getting to extraction.  I have to put up with that.  

The problem I have, is I'm not trying to force you to go faster, and make complaints to try and get the devs to force any changes on you so that you hurry up.  People coming in making complaint posts might eventually get the game changed so that I have to slow down, and I do NOT want to slow down.  I enjoy going fast.

People like you got AOE nerfed because it was "disruptive."  The thing is, I can be just as disruptive with Excal, a starter frame.  I can and have gotten nearly all the damage and kills in a SP exterminate fissure (several in a row, actually.  People like to go fast, so I had two stay with me.) using just Exalted Blade.  I've got straight garbage weapons built out to be "disruptive" in normal fissures, and some even for SP.  That's part of my fun as well.  If my fun and your fun are incompatible, and you don't want to deal with it, don't play with me.  Don't play with pubs.  I can deal with slow pubs.  If you can't deal with fast pubs, then recruit a squad that wants to pretend this is an actual stealth/cover shooter.

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

If inventing a incentive system means the game lays out strong weapons on a platter and actively encourages you to only get stronger then I guess the entire community has invented it and not DE, The ones who keep adding the systems for it.

While Duviri has forced variation they add yet another system to incentivize getting stronger, The magical thing called Intrinsics. Where not only do they affect duviri gameplay it even affects overworld gameplay and makes your operator actively stronger and increases the impact and strength of your circuit/duviri builds. You made an example to tone people down in a mode where you actively get told you can always do better, Even better yet on top of that the warframes you get selected have the builds you despise. So your argument falls flat even before it begins.

Damage Attenuation while helping add challenge does not mean the game tells you that because you are built strong you are playing the game wrong. If anything it gives you an obstacle to get over and keeps doing that on every conceivable level. Added challenge and toning down warframe based abilities on said challenging enemies does not = you are too strong. If that was ever a considered thing the enemies damage would tone you down much harsher across everywhere. Which it does not.

These little "rules" as you say are more suggestions and options for you to overcome the obstacles warframe puts in your way. The game never tasks you to play a certain way, And as a byproduct with everything else tells you you can play how you want.

Everyone makes their own fun, Thats the point of a game after all. So let people do that.

High end players arent tyrannical rulers of the underclass players. Most of them are even more then happy to help new and or struggling players cause veryone wants more people in this game.

So stop acting as if high end players rule over everything a player can accomplish in missions, They actively do not.

It encourages if not forces you to make different builds and loadouts and revisit content with different builds and loadouts, not build yourself into a corner with a few builds you can’t set down because you think the game wants you to superglue your kit into place because it makes for an easy game.  Intrinsics (not incarnons, for some reason I read incarnons; explains the initial confusion and the warranted re-read) add more power and/or customisation; that means that you have more chance to build in different ways for higher-level content, but you’re still working from the modless baseline!

When you bring a high-level build designed for high-level content into a lower-level mission designed for alternative builds that find their place in that content because they’re not going to work in high-level, you actively have to stop yourself from doing anything lest you break everything or rely on accidental cases of someone being able to do something, because you’re not built for the content! That makes you the one calling the shots, and those around you the ones relying on your whim!

edit: There’s just… so much facepalming over stuff like your statement about the damage attenuation

Edited February 8 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

I can't believe people are still arguing with this guy lmfao

I wish they’d stop. Nothing’s coming from this

[PublikDomain]

9 hours ago, darklord122 said:

Or B, You suggest having everyone deal the same amount of damage across all levels in the entire game and only increasing such damage when reaching thresholds increments with either levels or more other ways of gating.

Which would be good for everyone. Would you like your Sirocco Amp to be as useful as your gun? For your Archgun to be on equal footing? For your pets to deal enough damage to be worth more than a mule to carry your Vacuum? Where you'd always know that every weapon and frame and companion you craft or buy will be good, and never again have to waste your time leveling another piece of fodder garbage that's only good for being thrown in the trash? Being able to throw Fireballs and Freezes and Soul Punches as a reliable tool on par with the game's Brammas and Whipclaws? Where DE is never forced to take away all the frames and weapons you've spent so much time acquiring so they can shove you into another Kahl or Veso because it's the only way they can actually build a game to play anymore?

"Everyone deal the same amount of damage" is the same as "everything is always equally strong and fun" and "nothing is ever weak or bad". And, as a bonus, it means we'd all get to lift play together too.

9 hours ago, darklord122 said:

My main point is the game is designed for you to build yourself to be the best you can be,

And then you proceed to do nothing with it, because DE can't design anything anymore that can handle the "best" that they've allowed. That's why you have to play as Kahl and Veso and Teshin in TNW. That's why you have to play as the Drifter in TNW and Duviri. That's why you'll soon have to play as Arthur in 1999. That's why we have Attenuation, which literally exists to "put down your best". That's why DE's mission design philosophy so often relies on a timer or some other speed bump to slow players down. That's why we have Overguard, because our "best" was trivializing enemies DE didn't want trivialized:

Quote

Overguard was introduced as a means to make Eximus units feel more formidable, while also providing Tenno a way to crush their defenses with some solid teamwork and concentrated firepower. 
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1305472-eximus-reborn-dev-workshop/

To make them formidable and introduce teamwork! Which immediately and obviously failed to succeed, of course, but that's a bit besides the point. This idea that you're supposed to "build yourself to the best you can be" isn't wrong, what's wrong is the idea that our "best" must then mean turning into anti-social psychopaths who make the game as boring as possible for everyone around them.

9 hours ago, darklord122 said:

And if your best is put down by others then how are you supposed to play a game centered around the very idea of becoming strong in thousands of different ways. Should people be penalized for it?

As DE themselves have said, when you start negatively impacting the game for others then yes. You should not be allowed to negatively impact the game for others. If your gameplay is negatively impacting the game for others, that gameplay should be reined in so it no longer negatively impacts the game for others.

In any other game, what would you call a person who willingly and knowingly deprives another player of their ability to play and have fun?

9 hours ago, darklord122 said:

Some things can and always be nerfed once they get too powerful which they already have been and continues to be.

But punishing players for playing the way the game encourages you to do is asinine.

Everything that has ever been nerfed was once "playing the way the game encourages you to do". If you can understand that things are nerfed once they get too powerful, as it always has been and continues to be, then I don't see why you'd get hung up about things getting nerfed now that they've gotten too powerful.

[darklord122]

33 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

It encourages if not forces you to make different builds and loadouts and revisit content with different builds and loadouts, not build yourself into a corner with a few builds you can’t set down because you think the game wants you to superglue your kit into place because it makes for an easy game. Intrinsics add more power and/or customisation; that means that you have more chance to build in different ways for higher-level content, but you’re still working from the modless baseline!

When you bring a high-level build designed for high-level content into a lower-level mission designed for alternative builds that find their place in that content because they’re not going to work in high-level, you actively have to stop yourself from doing anything lest you break everything or rely on accidental cases of someone being able to do something, because you’re not built for the content! That makes you the one calling the shots, and those around you the ones relying on your whim!

edit: There’s just… so much facepalming over stuff like your statement about the damage attenuation

You not understanding the fundamentals of damage attenuation and facepalming over it just means you lack the nuance of the challenge it provides and the fact you can overcome it,Damage attenuation is fundamentally and quite literally just a damage reduction system that scales based on the level of the enemies and works on normal damage, crits and statuses and any player with enough sense and builds can overcome those of their respective level. One does not have to be a god to do so.

Anyway, Lower end missions nor high end missions are not intrinsically designed for "alternative builds" the entire game allows you to do that but that is an optional choice, An optional choice might I add that you have argued for this entire time yet when the majority does not have the problems you have somehow its on everyone else to make your experience more enjoyable.
 

We are not responsible for other people's gameplay whether they be high nor low, Just because someone brought in a latron with a god rolled riven into a level 30 mission does not mean its going to wipe the entire map out before you can do anything.

Sometimes yes things happen but its very unlikely its happening in every mode you play in and at this point I believe you are just straw manning most of it because ive played this game since its release day and yet I have rarely encountered such situations that call for me to tell the entire endgame community that they have to have me into consideration before getting to play in low end missions, In fact ive never felt like ive needed such a situation at all.

Instead I looked upon my own builds and made them more efficient. That was my choice and it worked very well. It made me learn, And end game players even have reached out to help at times way back when, And ive paved that forward and still do.

Stop acting as if there is nothing to do in a mission because of one high end player. Even if somehow you where to not get any kills you still gain passive affinity from participating. So what is your endgame then? Not leveling weapons? Not farming for resources? So what do you want? Just people endlessly killing things for 30 minutes for a small chunk reward that could have been done in less than 3?

And to further some examples of there being plenty to do:

Exterminate missions spawn enemies from all sides and can even be manipulated depending on where you are. Unless they have an entire map wide ability its impossible to kill everything without you getting to do anything. There is plenty.

Defense missions actively spawn enemies in bulk and away from player directions.

Interceptions require each teammate to defend their own point subsequently even encouraging helping other teammates by killing things easier.

Other modes dont even require enemies to be killed.

Such as sabotage.
Capture only requiring one take down.
Hostage rescue.
And many more.

And with your philosophy it sounds as if most of these modes you wouldnt even bother with, Because if one person does anything before you do that is considered inconsiderate of them.

And somehow with the entire game open to you somehow with everything ive mentioned an endgame player dictates everything in front of you to the point where you have to play solo.

Logically makes no damn sense. So get a grip. But all of these things have already been mentioned time and time again so feel free to not listen to them.

And the amount of exaggeration I hear is staggering.

If the situation was so bad the entire forum would be non stop full of it.

[Merkranire]

3 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

If the situation was so bad the entire forum would be non stop full of it.

People gave up. Like I’m doing now.

[darklord122]

36 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which would be good for everyone. Would you like your Sirocco Amp to be as useful as your gun? For your Archgun to be on equal footing? For your pets to deal enough damage to be worth more than a mule to carry your Vacuum? Where you'd always know that every weapon and frame and companion you craft or buy will be good, and never again have to waste your time leveling another piece of fodder garbage that's only good for being thrown in the trash? Being able to throw Fireballs and Freezes and Soul Punches as a reliable tool on par with the game's Brammas and Whipclaws? Where DE is never forced to take away all the frames and weapons you've spent so much time acquiring so they can shove you into another Kahl or Veso because it's the only way they can actually build a game to play anymore?

"Everyone deal the same amount of damage" is the same as "everything is always equally strong and fun" and "nothing is ever weak or bad". And, as a bonus, it means we'd all get to lift play together too.

And then you proceed to do nothing with it, because DE can't design anything anymore that can handle the "best" that they've allowed. That's why you have to play as Kahl and Veso and Teshin in TNW. That's why you have to play as the Drifter in TNW and Duviri. That's why you'll soon have to play as Arthur in 1999. That's why we have Attenuation, which literally exists to "put down your best". That's why DE's mission design philosophy so often relies on a timer or some other speed bump to slow players down. That's why we have Overguard, because our "best" was trivializing enemies DE didn't want trivialized:

To make them formidable and introduce teamwork! Which immediately and obviously failed to succeed, of course, but that's a bit besides the point. This idea that you're supposed to "build yourself to the best you can be" isn't wrong, what's wrong is the idea that our "best" must then mean turning into anti-social psychopaths who make the game as boring as possible for everyone around them.

As DE themselves have said, when you start negatively impacting the game for others then yes. You should not be allowed to negatively impact the game for others. If your gameplay is negatively impacting the game for others, that gameplay should be reined in so it no longer negatively impacts the game for others.

In any other game, what would you call a person who willingly and knowingly deprives another player of their ability to play and have fun?

Everything that has ever been nerfed was once "playing the way the game encourages you to do". If you can understand that things are nerfed once they get too powerful, as it always has been and continues to be, then I don't see why you'd get hung up about things getting nerfed now that they've gotten too powerful.

Most items in the game are already on the same level in terms of your own respective builds, You secondary can be just as powerful as your primary and melee vise versa.
Archguns already do massive damage and pets can already nuke, The game however does have weapons that are worse than others but thats somewhat part of the experience and even a reason for incarnon form modifications to exist. To uplift those underutilized weapons.

However thats fundamentally not what I meant. Everyone dealing the same damage across the board would ruin the very foundation of what the games systems are based on. Rivens wouldnt matter, Arcanes, Archon shards invigorations all of these would be trivialized across the board and everyone would play the same experience. A dull game same as the rest of its kind limiting you to do what everyone else does with slight modifications possible through some synergy. Destiny's build system would be a perfect example of what that could look like.

Warframe however is about building your own experience in your own way while having fun with different power fantasies at play that the game provides for you through the many modifications the game has to offer. Everyone does start on the exact same playing field its just what they do with it that makes them unique and what makes warframe unique.
But I digress.

You proceed to then speak of how just because TNW has different gameplay segments with characters that means that DE no longer can design things anymore with warframes in mind which is fundamentally just dumb to assume. They are separate gameplay quest segments to give you a fresh perspective from each faction that you have been fighting for so long and be in their shoes for a change. Its not about the balance of warframes because if that was the case warframes would never have been allowed there yet they are with regular intervals. That does not automatically mean warframes are bad. Any cinematic quest would call for those moments.

Arthur probably will be the same we have no idea yet so im not bringing that into a discussion as a hypothetical.

Duviri also being a poor example as you can still just spawn your warframe there and drifter having his own way of getting a power fantasy to the point of unbalanced levels which still just trivializes enemies even on steel path.
Its just a different perspective.

Not everything that has been nerfed is a bygone era of meta gaming, Weapons that are nerfed are very much still capable of clearing enemies out just as much but slightly toned down than before. Tonkor, Nukor and Zarr being a prime example even more-so with Kuva variants. And I was never hung up on things being nerfed, In fact I accepted and even said before that nuke builds could use a step back as an example and there are more things I can mention in terms of weapons but I dont want to fill entire segments out. Point is things can be nerfed things still will be powerful and DE keeps adding onto that.

While negatively impacting players is bad inherently not many people do it intentionally nor maliciously. Its a by product of the games design and the way it incentivizes you to acquire rewards across the board. If SP had more rewards targeted in a better way for that type of play it would be mitigated, And who knows we will probably see that day happen at some point.

But its still players right to be allowed to bring what they want where they want because its about their enjoyment. If one had to think of every action you do across the entire game its doesnt become a game anymore, It becomes a full time job. And no-one wants that in a game.

Being the best you can be in the game does not mean you automatically become an "anti-social psychopath" You are just built the way you want. Whether in a squad or not.

Lastly damage attenuation isnt a holy grail of a roadblock. Its just a scaled damage reduction that can be overcome quite easily at almost every level. Only somewhat struggling in steel path. Its not the end all be all of putting players best down, All it does is add challenge to the game which is quite self evident. Overguard as well inherently does not induce any teamwork, Because you dont need an entire team to take down one enemy that has it much less 20. Not even on steel path.

Ultimately people just want to play how they want to play with as much fun as possible. Will there be negative experiences? Yes but that is unavoidable. That does not mean people want others experiences to go down but dont expect other peoples fun to be stopped in the process, Most of them dont do it intentionally either. Everyone can get to the same point as everyone else in this game and thus everyone can reach those heights and probably will. Everyone fundamentally will make these decisions whether by choice or game design philosophy. Thats all.

31 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

People gave up. Like I’m doing now.

An entire forum of people would not give up, Less people have spoken up before and gotten their will across. I highly doubt it wouldnt be noticed.

But you do you. The game stands as it is and seems to only keep furthering what you dont want.

Edited February 8 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

5 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

An entire forum of people would not give up, Less people have spoken up before and gotten their will across. I highly doubt it wouldnt be noticed.

But you do you. The game stands as it is and seems to only keep furthering what you dont want.

Sure.

The game only keeps getting better, every expansion adding even more things to use and more ways to play, until I jump into public and you’re there, mysteriously having no problems while I’m irrationally getting annoyed.

But again, the game is just that simple that you’re not at fault for the actions you take, conveniently enough. A lawless game means free rein, after all, even amongst others. That’s just logic. You win, I don’t know how many times I have to repeat it, but you win

[traybong111]

Nature of horde-oriented PvE games being what it is, we'll always circle back to AoE meta discussions. 

I have a lot of mixed feelings about Relics and Fissures, like on one hand I admire how well-connected the grinds are--you get relics for doing pretty much anything in the game and they'll always be of some use for duckits and void traces even if you don't need any of the parts. I don't enjoy that so much of Warframe's core farming loop is spamming the same low level exterminate/capture speedruns because it is an RNG casino at the end, but on the flipside I think beginners being able to jump into Prime farming early on has greater benefits than not. 

People are (justifiably) growing tired of AoE spam but I've been saying since Draco era that just nerfing the Most Popular X isn't the answer, what would really help is a variety of content and meta. Most of us should know by now that AoE spams are merely a symptom of the game's narrow incentive structure. This doesn't mean I'm opposed to AoE nerfs, just that I recognize simple number nerfs as bandaids which need to be accompanied with changes in rewards and missions. 

Improving Fissures to be more enjoyable to more types of players would mean ameliorating the gap in efficiency between exterm/cap spams vs. other mission types. Side objectives to reward reactants are the first things I can think of, like in Sabotage or Spy--think back to T4 Sabotage and why it was still played a lot back when the meta was camping as long as one could to squeeze out as much value out of a Void key. This doesn't have to be a zero-sum game where AoE players have to be reduced in order for other types of players to play how they want. But then again, Fissures and Prime farming are so closely tied to Warframe's revenue generation that I understand some players thinking it's extremely unlikely to get DE to rework their mission structures. Still, Prime farming has changed before and adding better variety in Fissure missions would be much smaller changes than transition to Relics was, so I think it's worth trying. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Spoiler

 

6 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Which would be good for everyone. Would you like your Sirocco Amp to be as useful as your gun? For your Archgun to be on equal footing? For your pets to deal enough damage to be worth more than a mule to carry your Vacuum? Where you'd always know that every weapon and frame and companion you craft or buy will be good, and never again have to waste your time leveling another piece of fodder garbage that's only good for being thrown in the trash? Being able to throw Fireballs and Freezes and Soul Punches as a reliable tool on par with the game's Brammas and Whipclaws? Where DE is never forced to take away all the frames and weapons you've spent so much time acquiring so they can shove you into another Kahl or Veso because it's the only way they can actually build a game to play anymore?

"Everyone deal the same amount of damage" is the same as "everything is always equally strong and fun" and "nothing is ever weak or bad". And, as a bonus, it means we'd all get to lift play together too.

And then you proceed to do nothing with it, because DE can't design anything anymore that can handle the "best" that they've allowed. That's why you have to play as Kahl and Veso and Teshin in TNW. That's why you have to play as the Drifter in TNW and Duviri. That's why you'll soon have to play as Arthur in 1999. That's why we have Attenuation, which literally exists to "put down your best". That's why DE's mission design philosophy so often relies on a timer or some other speed bump to slow players down. That's why we have Overguard, because our "best" was trivializing enemies DE didn't want trivialized:

To make them formidable and introduce teamwork! Which immediately and obviously failed to succeed, of course, but that's a bit besides the point. This idea that you're supposed to "build yourself to the best you can be" isn't wrong, what's wrong is the idea that our "best" must then mean turning into anti-social psychopaths who make the game as boring as possible for everyone around them.

As DE themselves have said, when you start negatively impacting the game for others then yes. You should not be allowed to negatively impact the game for others. If your gameplay is negatively impacting the game for others, that gameplay should be reined in so it no longer negatively impacts the game for others.

In any other game, what would you call a person who willingly and knowingly deprives another player of their ability to play and have fun?

Everything that has ever been nerfed was once "playing the way the game encourages you to do". If you can understand that things are nerfed once they get too powerful, as it always has been and continues to be, then I don't see why you'd get hung up about things getting nerfed now that they've gotten too powerful.

(I hope that spoiler quoted the lengthy post)

What you describe there sounds like a nightmare to me. I would NOT enjoy playing the game, were those conditions present, with all things being equal, completely balanced and bland, with no reason to get better things, because everything is the same... you've described the death condition of a game, in my book. It's the end of progression. The end of reasons to play. The end of fun.

I despise damage attenuation. I despise Khal, Veso and Teshin gameplay. I hate playing as the Drifter in Duviri. Although, I expected the Arthur part to be worse... he's just the Excalibur frame, and his melee was acceptable in his one mission so far - the jury is obviously still out on his future performance in the rest of the 1999 story. DE's de-powering of players during missions is making me dislike the missions a great deal - it's not making anything any more fun. The New War was pure TORTURE.

(And before anyone gets snarky and says "if you hate the game so much, why do you even play anymore?" Because the solo missions in the rest of the game are PURE FUN, with my full loadout that I've collected and built up over the years, and am comfortable playing the game with, rather than pre-set (or random, in the case of Duviri) de-powered loadouts that strip all fun from the game.)

The whole teamwork thing is being blown out of proportion, as an important thing. Warframe's co-op just means that everyone in a mission is working to achieve the same objective... not that they NEED each other to achieve that objective, they just aren't working AGAINST each other. As long as the mission objective is completed, Good Job Everyone. The issues arise when a single player can accomplish the mission objective, but has to enter the mission in multiplayer mode for efficiency, when they'd otherwise have gone solo AND other players in that mission WANTED to do more... to have more kills on the end of mission report or somesuch nonsense.

DE's intentions with nerfing have never matched up with the reality of playing the game. They feel like unnecessary changes that make absolutely no sense in the context of the game after a few more months of releases bring things even stronger than the previously nerfed thing... if they undid previous nerfs to coincide with the present power structure of the game, it might feel better, but they never reverse nerfs when the balance of the game changes. Those things are permanently sledgehammered into the ground - for no "good" reason (you may think they're "good" reasons, I do not.) So, in practice, no, I don't trust that DE's nerfs are with the intentions of encouraging teamwork in multiplayer missions. I think their nerfs are designed to encourage people to go out and farm and use different equipment so their spreadsheets are showing a wider variety of gear being used... for no actual "good" reason for that diversity.

The "game" is not stolen from these people who are complaining and calling for nerfs, while trying to take the moral high ground of wanting the best for everyone, when it's clearly not "best" for everyone... just themselves... for their own reasons that they personally find fun... so they should form groups with likeminded individuals to keep having fun in their way... while PUGs continue as they always have, with people accomplishing the mission objectives... whether a single person was able to rush ahead and do it or not (most people I know - I generally don't ask this of them - are happy just getting those end of mission rewards - they're not annoyed that they didn't get more kills or anything... I've never heard this complaint from anyone I know, and I only find this sentiment in threads like this.)

I'm sure I have more to say on this... but have to head to work.

[Merkranire]

11 hours ago, darklord122 said:

If you are making a different build yet take the same philosophy you keep at hand nothing has really changed.

So reading comprehension.

Hey, you never did explain what you meant by this

[Aruquae]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

I can't believe people are still arguing with this guy lmfao

Well, whenever a thread has multiple pages while also being “hot” that either means 3 things

• The most common is two people arguing 
• The second most common is one dude has a bad take and everyone’s like “No.”
• And the third would be almost everyone in the forums in agreement that something’s stupid (rare, but it happens)

There is a fourth, but that is locked into a wholesome part of the forums known as “off topic”

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

and I’m not having to sit around not moving due to Too Much Powah destroying my teammate’s gameplay because I know how much powah is too much and can just make a different build that I want to use, and I’m doing everything you can do on top of it.

But there you have your problem. You think this is about power and killing. I just showed you a list where only a sinlge mode would fit that "issue" since no other mode has a limited amount of enemies where only those enemies are the objective. Disruption has two parts, killing trash to get keys and then destroying demos, you dont have to participate in both to have a fulfilling experience and be part of the mission. As I mentioned when I play defensive missions I dont tend to go out of my way to kill since keeping the target safe is also part of the engagement in the mission. Unless of course I play solo duh, where I'm the only one that can do the killing to make something like Defense progress.

Sure capture has a single kill target. But it isnt about power, it is about considering the objective, which is take out a single enemy fast, while preferably also getting there fast. So if you build for some "tactical" "engaging" experince in that mission type you are doing it wrong quite frankly. Because you cant really build for "tactical" "engaging" trash killing while also building to take down the cap target, since the cap target is just that much more durable and will eventually escape if you dont kill it in time.

Or are you at a point now where you will claim "stealing" when someone happens to play Frost (or Limbo, or Gara etc.) and place a defensive skill on a defense objective since you are now invalidated because you happened to pick Oberon, Wisp or Trinity? Because suddenly the objective wont take damage so your healing that you planned to use will not have any use. That is the "logic" you are using more or less.

edit: Oh and by the way. Which arbitration mission type/enemy did you face with your 3 mod Argonak build?

21 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

While you're argument with them may be somewhat entertaining to watch, and may be cathartic for you to take part in, you're not going to get through their head any time soon.  You would have more luck trying to talk a brick wall into collapsing by itself then getting through their skull.

Mostly trying to see what mental gymnastics he can come up with. It's quite amazing to see how oblivious some people can be to their own place in the world, if he is actually serious with what he says.

Edited February 8 by SneakyErvin