Is Melee Influence too powerful?

[ShortCat]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb SneakyErvin:

It does however not duplicate the damage of the hit, it takes the modded damage and applies it again. So the damage you see on surrounding targets depends on which elements triggered on the attack and their % of the damage spread on the weapon. And the number you see are all statuses combined into a single number.

I am not talking about double dipping on proc damage, thus I made an example with viral, which does not deal damage. The strike that triggers a proc is transfered with the damage it does to the enemy.

https://imgur.com/2BVfkUB

Edited January 30 by ShortCat

[ShortCat]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb KitMeHarder:

If you kill an enemy, MI does not transfer any damage from them.

Indeed, If you kill an enemy in one strike, you do not transfer the damage even if it procs a status. However, if an enemy survies you still transfer the the strike damage in a 20m radius. So just go for the beefier targets I guess.

Edited January 30 by ShortCat

[KitMeHarder]

4 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Indeed, If you kill an enemy in one strike, you do not transfer the damage even if it procs a status. However, if an enemy survies you still transfer the the strike damage

I don't typically equate "If you overkill one enemy" as the enemy still being alive after you overkill them.

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

That post was about weapons besides the Dual Ichor, and specifically about the fact you will not have 20 enemies in range (like you do in the sim) most of the time (nor will every enemy be hit by multiple tesla effects). And this is just solo SP endurance. Anywhere else or anytime you have teammates and it'll be significantly less.

How do you not have 20 enemies in range in SP endless? And why on earth do you care about the actual testla effects? Those are not the main damage source, it's every single hit you make against the primary target that procs direct damage instances to everything else that matters. The electric is simply there to enable the arcane and provide further direct damage hits, not for the status itself on enemies, that is simply a bonus.

7 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Again, I'm not saying MI isn't a good arcane. I'm saying it's not "too powerful". It's also overestimated and people tend to forget how much the same set up with a different arcane would still be doing. 

But again, an in mission video (doesn't have to be yours) you think is being absolutely carried by MI would be appreciated (besides Dual Ichor). Preferably with no faction damage, but I understand.

Another arcane would not provide additional AoE damage. The procs (not the status effects themselves) clear whole rooms in content like SP Mot since all of your modded damage for the element hits everything within 20m whenever you land their status on the main target.

8 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I am not talking about double dipping on proc damage, thus I made an example with viral, which does not deal damage. The strike that triggers a proc is transfered with the damage it does to the enemy.

https://imgur.com/2BVfkUB

No one is saying anything about double dipping on proc damage. I'm saying the damage you see is unrelated to the hit you land on the main target. The surrounding enemies take your modded elemental damage and applies it to enemies within 20m of the target you landed the status on, and on the target itself aswell.

So if you have a weapon with 100 base damage and the only mod equipped is Shocking Touch any electrical status landed would spread 90 electric damage and apply the status. It wouldnt matter if the main attack would crit or not, 90 damage would be transfered, which then rolls seperately for critical. The critical just doesnt show up currently and always displays white damage.

Not really sure what the screenshot is supposed to show since there is a lack of consistency in the numbers displayed. Some of them are only afflicted with 1 damage instance, others 2 and some with 3. And out of those they dont share the same numbers. The first to the left have 2x244 and 1x852, the left most only has 1 of each. Neither of those 2 have the 70 instance. The right most only has the 70 instance, the one in the back either has none or just the 70 instance. If it was a mirror of damage all HGs on the screen should have identical damage instances, both when it comes to numbers on the individual hits aswell as number of hits afflicting them, you shouldnt have between 1-3 across the screen of varying numbers.

40 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

You do not. If you kill an enemy, MI does not transfer any damage from them.

Maybe... just maybe... uhm have the uhm arcane active when you detonate instead of activating the arcane on detonation? The arcane isnt active so obviously it cannot proc the status on detonation. And like most other things in WF, the attack that triggers an effect never benefits from it. Like with CO, the hit that lands the first status does not benefit from the increased damage from the mod, and the attack that lands the second status only benefits from the first status and so on.

The only 1HK source that does not spread statuses is from finisher damage since none of the damage dealt comes from the status, but from the finisher damage itself. But if you 1HK something with a HA and that HA procs an elemental status, that status will spread and inflict damage within 20m since the damage type in involved in the killing and the status is applied in the calculation before the mob is determined dead.

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

How do you not have 20 enemies in range in SP endless?

How are you killing so slow that you do? Is this why you all think the arcane is so OP?

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Another arcane would not provide additional AoE damage.

Doesn't matter if it's not practically significant (aka vs a different arcane) 95% of the time. Again, the arcane is good, but it's no where near as good as you're letting on. Especially once you start comparing it to anything but melee.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Maybe... just maybe... uhm have the uhm arcane active when you detonate instead of activating the arcane on detonation? The arcane isnt active so obviously it cannot proc the status on detonation. And like most other things in WF, the attack that triggers an effect never benefits from it.

Maybe... just maybe... watch the entire video before you post, because it does transfer damage upon initial activation. Again, like most of this thread, where's your proof?

Edited January 30 by KitMeHarder

[ShortCat]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

Not really sure what the screenshot is supposed to show since there is a lack of consistency in the numbers displayed.

The screenshot is self-explanatory actually.
The 1s are damage numbers from one electric proc massivly reduced by armor, no elemental symbol because it was already a DoT tick and not the initial hit, Then. I hit my primary target with 2 corrosive procs, as can be seen over her head; one hit dealt 251 damage with a proc, the other one was a crit for 877 damage; corrosive status symbol can be seen next to each damage number next to the initial target. The 244 damage number on other Officers is the transfered hit from the non-crit strike; the 851 from the crit one. Every officer has the 244/851 next them. Bombards take only 70 damage, because they have alloy armor, not sure why only 1 damage instance though. 

Edited January 30 by ShortCat

[Jarriaga]

On 2024-01-28 at 2:55 PM, crimsonspartan1 said:

High status, slash heavy weapons definitely benefit most from Melee Influence

I thought slash was not propagated by melee influence?

[crimsonspartan1]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I thought slash was not propagated by melee influence?

Admittedly that's what i thought originally until I checked the wiki. I probably got a bit confused because I've been using my Nami solo a lot and that thing has pretty crazy range with it's incarnon form and primed reach. 

[Venus-Venera]

How can something like that even be “powerful”?
aoe was ruined. Ammo has almost become a joke.
Mele is often the only way, because even my cat can hold mele button...
But you shouldn't forget what it was like in the past... because you can ruin everything quickly and you can wait forever for improvements...

Edited January 30 by Venus-Venera

[(XBOX)MesaGaming87]

I don’t think it’s too powerful at all, I think it’s a combination of the other new melee Arcanes generally being underwhelming combined with the very popular Saryn + Dual Ichor incarnon + Melee Influence synergy that makes it feel that way more than it actually being so. As others have already mentioned the fact you have to specifically mod for Electricity (which is one of the weaker elements) for one which obviously then massively limits what other elements you can mod for is a considerable limit to your damage potential. Outside of a a few frames and specific interactions (specifically Saryn and Toxic lash) I don’t see how it’s too powerful? It requires a very specific build with one of the games weakest elements to be heavily modded for and shines with a handful of very specific weapons, some of which are only accessible at the very late game. Feels like another “that looks like fun let’s get rid of it” situation tbh. Rather than nerfing one of the better and useable melee Arcanes how about bringing a couple of the others up a bit and making them justifiably usable instead. 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, ShortCat said:

The screenshot is self-explanatory actually.
The 1s are damage numbers from one electric proc massivly reduced by armor, no elemental symbol because it was already a DoT tick and not the initial hit, Then. I hit my primary target with 2 corrosive procs, as can be seen over her head; one hit dealt 251 damage with a proc, the other one was a crit for 877 damage; corrosive status symbol can be seen next to each damage number next to the initial target. The 244 damage number on other Officers is the transfered hit from the non-crit strike; the 851 from the crit one. Every officer has the 244/851 next them. Bombards take only 70 damage, because they have alloy armor, not sure why only 1 damage instance though. 

It isnt since you miss alot of stuff in it. It isnt just the number of numbers and values being inconsistant, it is how they are inconsistant aswell in combination with how you claim/think the mechanic works. Let me explain.

You have the Bombards take 70 damage, one instance only, nothing else.

You have the Officers take near identical damage to the main target.

You have 5 damage instances to the left split between two Officers along with a few Bombards that only have the 70 damage instance.

None of these are explainable occurances with how you think the mechanics of the arcane works. Since if so, you are pretty much claiming it also deals true damage, which it doesnt, heck it would be a completely new type of damage since it also applies other statuses. Also, if it was true damage, how come the damage is different than that of the main target? How come it is mitigated by the Bombard and not by the Officers if it isnt true damage but still based on the damage dealt? Both would still remove near or over 95% of the damage purely from armor, since even with the corrosive bonuses, the Officer of that level would still retain enough raw armor value to reach near 95%. It wouldnt end up at 244/851 and then 70. Since the damage transfered in that case would be the two values seen on the main target and then mitigated by around 95% armor.

Which is why it works exactly like it is described (in detail) on the wiki, a new damage instance based on your modded values etc. The only thing not fully clear is how crit interacts, if it is automatic if the parent damage instance crits or if it is rolled per new instance created by a status effect. But crit atleast interacts with the new damage instances, that much is sure.

If it did work like you think, killing weak enemies would be absurdly beneficial and practically turn your melee into a 20m Curse on a stick, since it would ignore all defenses.

20 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Maybe... just maybe... watch the entire video before you post, because it does transfer damage upon initial activation. Again, like most of this thread, where's your proof?

I cant see that part in the video. I have however tested the 1HK and spread in-game today. It depends on how you 1HK the target, which explains why it doesnt work on the glaive which is a single hit resulting in death. The same applies to any "final" melee attack. So a HA that is made up of several hits will proc and spread as it 1HKs the main target, it just wont spread on the strike that results in the death of the target.

Edited January 31 by SneakyErvin

[KitMeHarder]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I cant see that part in the video.

How the hit against the heavy gunners doesn't have Influence active at first, yet still spreads Influence damage?

[SneakyErvin]

46 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

How the hit against the heavy gunners doesn't have Influence active at first, yet still spreads Influence damage?

Like I said I cant see it and I wont analyze it frame by frame. I'm aware that you proc influence in test two early on, but I cant see exactly where it procs and where it spreads, since you use a multiple hit weapon with bounce or PT and the mobs are just that close to eachother that it is hard to tell where exactly the first spread occurs.

[Nira]

Nah. I reckon Melee Exposure is though. 240% corrosive damage just for casting abilities.

I say reduce it to 120% damage, or change it to something like blast or gas ☠️

 

[ShortCat]

Am 31.1.2024 um 13:40 schrieb SneakyErvin:

Which is why it works exactly like it is described (in detail) on the wiki...

After reading the wiki article on Melee Influence I understood what you ment with regards to damage transfer. Yes, only the elemental portion of the damage is transfered with the corresponding proc.
That said, my initial statement still stands as the description for the arcane does not mention any damage transfer, only status status.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, ShortCat said:

After reading the wiki article on Melee Influence I understood what you ment with regards to damage transfer. Yes, only the elemental portion of the damage is transfered with the corresponding proc.
That said, my initial statement still stands as the description for the arcane does not mention any damage transfer, only status status.

The main point I'm trying to make is that no damage is transfered, that a new damage instance is calculated. You might want to call it transfer, but that is not how it works mechanically and should not be refered to as that. The reason is because if it was a transfer it would hit for nothing, since it would be mitigated by armor etc. since it is not true damage that is dealt. The reason Curse for instance can actually transfer damage is because it has its own rules, it ignores armor as part of the skill and transfers damage dealt to health directly to the health of cursed targets. So hitting a corpus on a corrupted tile with a toxin damage attack while having it curse linked with a grineer, you likely will wipe out the grineer aswell since it will ignore the armor, and if you hit a grineer with an attack of any damage type and have corpus linked to it, all the corpus linked will likely die since their health will get targetted directly as curse bypasses the shields since shields of the main target were never damaged (since grineer has no shields). And if you attack the corpus with non-toxin and you have grineer linked, the grineer will take no damage if you dont destroy the shields and start hitting health.

That is just not how the spread works on the arcane. So it rolls a completely new damage instance based on your modding and not your attack. This is important since the main attack that inflicted the status might have benefited from stance multipliers, a direct debuff on the target or similar, which will not apply to the new instance, it may have also attacked a completely different armor type, or shields, or health directly, resulting in different modifiers for the total damage outcome of the elemental portion of the parent hit compared to the newly produced instance.

Edited February 2 by SneakyErvin

[--UMBRA--BakedCookie]

1. Tip:

Arca Titron, Jat Kittag, Dual Ichor, Sampotes, Syam and Zenistar.

2. Tip:

Antifaction Rivens.

 

Thank me later.

[helioth137]

On 2024-02-13 at 12:58 PM, --UMBRA--BakedCookie said:

1. Tip:

Arca Titron, Jat Kittag, Dual Ichor, Sampotes, Syam and Zenistar.

2. Tip:

Antifaction Rivens.

 

Thank me later.

Sounds great, t
he recent buff to slam damage, and
especially the unique passive of Arca Titron (now gains 250% damage per kill instead of 100, caps at 5 stacks), 
made these weapons endurance run killers :o 

I kind of hate antifaction mods [primed bane of corrupted] is the best of those i guess,
but i should get used to them... idk, it always seemed enough to me to have one or two general configs with 
either single target or area damage, and mod vs. armour or vs. flesh. I guess factions mods e.t.c are just one more step in that equation, but, meh. 
Will try just to see. 

On 2024-02-01 at 1:52 AM, Nira said:

Nah. I reckon Melee Exposure is though. 240% corrosive damage just for casting abilities.

I say reduce it to 120% damage, or change it to something like blast or gas ☠️

 

i think it's great as it is, it does seem to interfere with other status's, but those still procc. 
I can't actually tell, i play with loadouts that grant "dark blue damage" from abilities a lot, such as xata's whisper subsume, 
I thought for quite a while melee exposure was giving me a second hit separate from the main hit, that dealt corrosive, as well as normal modded status. 

[Venus-Venera]

Am 13.2.2024 um 12:58 schrieb --UMBRA--BakedCookie:

1. Tip:

Arca Titron, Jat Kittag, Dual Ichor, Sampotes, Syam and Zenistar.

2. Tip:

Antifaction Rivens.

 

Thank me later.

Oh well. you can certainly build up deadly dmg against certain factions. especially with appropriate status effects. and with riven with unpopular weapons anyway. Above all, 2 fractions are possible there.
I just don't feel like changing the loadout every time.