Limbo Rework: An attempt to create something balanced and fun.

[chaotea]

So I do like Limbo as he is. I, like many, disliked him at first especially when teamed with a limbo user. However after playing him through again after his prime access, and accompanying polish, I found him to be much more enjoyable.

Still, recently I've seen alot of threads positing reworks of limbo that range from making limbos kit 'easier to understand and less frustrating in multiplayer' via the novel method of making his kit far more complicated / intrusive, and other that make limbo so strong you could afk steel path with him.

So i wanted to take a look, as someone who likes to keep balance in the forefront of his mind when developing concepts. I hope this meets with interest, if not approval.

NOTE: Assuming warframe is at max rank in descriptions.

TLDR: Looking to remove the concept of two non interacting spaces and focus on limbos utility and spreading buffs and debuffs. In effect, changed being 'banished' to being a buff for allies and a debuff for enemies that can give damage resistance and slow enemies. With enough strength players can stop enemy movement like current surge does, or can let it be lower to allow enemies some movement solving some of the issue of cataclysm.

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Passive: Rift Plane

This rework would see a change to the existing rift plane mechanic. Rift Plane is now considered a buff in terms of its mechanics (debuff on enemies). Rift Plane is applied to an affected target for 30 seconds and applies an effect: Enemies suffer 300 impact damage & have movements slowed by 40% for the duration, Allies regenerate 2 energy per second & take 50% less damage from enemies not inflicted with Rift Plane. Additional instances of Rift Plane refreshes the duration and re-inflicts damage.

When limbo dashes, he applies Rift Plane to himself.

 

Ability 1 (Energy Cost - 25): Banish

Casts a wave of Rift energy that inflicts Rift Plane on Enemies and Allies in range (including the caster). Enemies suffer an additional 250 impact damage. Allies heal 10% max health per second until Rift Plane runs out or is refreshed (does not stack).

Augment: Rift Haven - Increases health restore from 10% to 25% (affected by strength). Increases Rift Plane buff duration granted by Banish to 30 seconds on allies. Casting on Downed Warframes revives them.

Helmith Ability.

 

Strength effects Damage of wave, Range effects wave travel distance, Duration effects skill duration, Efficiency effects energy per cast.

 

Ability 2 (Energy Cost - 50): Stasis

On Cast and for 60 seconds afterwards it provides the following enhancements to Rift Plane: Enemy slow is doubled, Allied damage resist is increased to 70%, Impact damage from Rift Plane being applied is increased to 900 impact damage.

 

Strength effects Enemy slow (up to 100%), allied damage resist (up to 90%) and impact damage, Range has no effect, Duration effect ability duration, Efficiency effects energy per cast.

 

Ability 3 (Energy Cost - 75): Rift Surge

Mostly unchanged, but seeing larger mechanical changes due to the changes to Rift Plane.

On cast, any enemy currently affected by Rift Plane gain the Rift Surge debuff for 30 seconds, and has their Rift Plane effect duration refreshed. On death, a unit with Rift Surge inflicts Rift Plane on any enemies or allies within 25m.

Augment: Rift Torrent - On cast, allies affected by Rift plane gain 10% increased damage for 30 seconds for each enemy with the Rift Surge debuff. This value is doubled against enemies with the Rift Surge debuff.

 

Strength effects nothing, Range nothing, Duration effects duration of Rift Surge debuff, Efficiency effects energy to cast.

 

Ability 4 (Energy Cost - 100): Cataclysm

Limbo deploys a 16m sphere of energy centred on itself. Units inside the sphere have Rift Plane applied to them if they do not have it already. If they do, it is re-applied every 15 seconds. Cataclysm lasts for 30 seconds, during which it shrinks to 6m. For every 1m the sphere shrinks, the cooldown for Rift Plane re-aplication is lowered by 1 second, to a minimum of 2 seconds.  Units that cross the threshold of the sphere suffer 500 blast damage. The spheres Threshold blocks enemy projectiles (similar to frosts snowglobe).

 

Augment: Cataclysmic Continuum - Each enemy killed inside the sphere increases its duration by 1 second. This can increase its size, but will not increase its Rift plane re-application timer.

 

Strength effects blast damage, Range effects Cataclysm minimum and maximum range, Duration effects abilities duration, Efficiency effects energy to cast.

 

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Edited February 2 by chaotea
Updated in response to feedback

[Aruquae]

I like the balance between old and new, you managed to keep the core of Limbo while applying something new.

The rift giving damage reduction and CC instead of outright invulnerability is a nice touch, thought I think the damage reduction for Limbo himself should be increased (just so he’s still got his rift survivability). 
The second ability increasing slow is a good idea, instead of outright freezing them. This makes less of a cheese factor for Limbo. 
I can see the second and third ability benefitting from strength, love how you combined the augment with the third. 
The fourth… hmm I’m just biased for the fourth. Still think it increasing would be nice, but the change you made to the rift being more CC and less of a gate negates that. 
Overall good ideas all around

[chaotea]

54 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

, thought I think the damage reduction for Limbo himself should be increased (just so he’s still got his rift survivability). 

I feel he'll need a stat boost to health and armour to compensate.

55 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

The second ability increasing slow is a good idea, instead of outright freezing them. This makes less of a cheese factor for Limbo. 

Yes, helps with cataclysm. You can up it to complete slow with more strength, but gives you the option.

56 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I can see the second and third ability benefitting from strength, love how you combined the augment with the third. 

Felt it need adjustment just for how focused this new build is on banishing.

57 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

The fourth… hmm I’m just biased for the fourth. Still think it increasing would be nice, but the change you made to the rift being more CC and less of a gate negates that. 

The tradeoff that it becomes more powerful as it gets smaller (each application of Rift Plane does 300 impact damage) adds some interesting options.

58 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Overall good ideas all around

Glad you think so. I'd love a limbo thats more active, though i still like the current one but agree its very niche.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

I like it.

Though I would still enjoy some sort ability that allows him to pass through laser barriers and sensors still. (Totally not necessary though).

[Azamagon]

Not gonna lie, when I read the foreword, I was highly sceptical if this was gonna be any good - but you did good!

Sure, it's a highly simplified version of his kit, but there is a certain beauty to its simplicity that I can't dislike :) There are a few interactions I think need changing or tweaking (more to that below), but the gist of your rework can totally work. 

Sidenote: I still think his current rift-functions can be salvaged (i'll give you a link to my own rework below, i would love your feedback on it!), but regardless, on to the detailed feedback:

Rift Plane + Stasis effects: These two changes are lowkey genius, hehe. It keeps the spirit of the Rift Plane to a degree, but removes the major cheesiness of it, and encourages and allows active gameplay. I think the values are potentially fine as suggested too.

However, considering how this "new" kit (revamped Rift Surge especially) would be rather energy-hungry, i'd also keep the energy-on-Rifted-enemy-kill (but lowered to 5 energy, maybe?).

Banish - Make the healing effect and Rift planing apply to the caster too, for a duration. Also please don't remove the strength-boostability of the heal!

I also love how Helminth-friendly your rework made Banish! Sidenote: Maybe Banish could need a new name?

Rift Surge - This is no longer "perpetual" like the current version (since current Rift Surge applies RIFT SURGE on others on death, not "Radial Banish", as that requires un-Banishing them with his 1 or 4), which would be fine if it did something else too. Like, weapon-amping Rift Torrent effect, but for Limbo only. Then the augment could apply it for allies too and boost its power further. But suggested as is, is kinda pointless.

Cataclysm - This honestly seems pretty solid, I guess? Seems fine by me.

As for my own rework, here it is:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1345377-limbo-rework-suggestions-to-make-him-teamfriendly-less-cheesy-but-also-far-more-deadly/

Edited February 1 by Azamagon

[(PSN)Ragology]

Catalyst being a half sphere, would that make him bad at picking off foes who are a ledge below him? Makes it harder to break open crates too.

[Joezone619]

No, this essentially nerfs an entire dimension down to a mere status effect, and not even a very original one, this is just cold proc with extra steps.

Edited February 1 by Joezone619

[chaotea]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I like it.

Though I would still enjoy some sort ability that allows him to pass through laser barriers and sensors still. (Totally not necessary though).

Sure, though i figure wukong does it better so theres no point on having it just for second place :D

[chaotea]

10 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

No, this essentially nerfs an entire dimension down to a mere status effect, and not even a very original one, this is just cold proc with extra steps.

I mean thats a very succinct summery while also being inaccurate. Not sure if you only got as far as the passive.

13 hours ago, (PSN)Ragology said:

Catalyst being a half sphere, would that make him bad at picking off foes who are a ledge below him? Makes it harder to break open crates too.

Good point. More a typo than anything, was thinking of it as a sphere anyway.

[chaotea]

14 hours ago, Azamagon said:

However, considering how this "new" kit (revamped Rift Surge especially) would be rather energy-hungry, i'd also keep the energy-on-Rifted-enemy-kill (but lowered to 5 energy, maybe?).

Figure its not such an issue as its no more energy hungry than other warframes, and theres so much energy restore at the moment. Plus your likely to remain in Rift Plane permanently as you can now attack enemies outside of it. I also increased the rift effect duration from 15 to 30 seconds. Figure this was a good balance.

14 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Banish - Make the healing effect and Rift planing apply to the caster too, for a duration. Also please don't remove the strength-boostability of the heal!

Interesting point. Ill update the concept, but the strength would only apply to the augment version.

14 hours ago, Azamagon said:

This is no longer "perpetual" like the current version

Yea, my thinking is that Banish is used as a 'primer', then Surge is used to maintain the spread.

 

[Djnichiro]

This rework is basically a worse version of Citrine. Now he heals, gives damage reduction and slows, which Citrine does better anyway. Not to mention that removing stasis from limbo is the same as removing peacemakers from Mesa.

Edited February 2 by Djnichiro

[chaotea]

1 hour ago, Djnichiro said:

This rework is basically a worse version of Citrine. Now he heals, gives damage reduction and slows, which Citrine does better anyway. Not to mention that removing stasis from limbo is the same as removing peacemakers from Mesa.

Hi. So limbo already heals with his augment, gives invulnerability and halts movement. This isnt a far cry from that. Stasis is just a 100% movement slow. Ive not removed it, but changing it to 80% slow (with his 3 active) helps with the issue where enemies at the edge of cataclysm enter the range, freeze, then almost immediately fall out of the shrinking range and repeat.

However if full stasis is wanted, 120% strength will up the slow to 100%.

Finally, I'd say that the change to stasis is like changing peacemaker from a 360 degree ability to a focused ability. Which happened.

[Djnichiro]

1 час назад, chaotea сказал:

Hi. So limbo already heals with his augment, gives invulnerability and halts movement. This isnt a far cry from that. Stasis is just a 100% movement slow. Ive not removed it, but changing it to 80% slow (with his 3 active) helps with the issue where enemies at the edge of cataclysm enter the range, freeze, then almost immediately fall out of the shrinking range and repeat.

The main thing of stasis is not the 100% slow. It's stopping everything including bullets. That's why he doesn't really care for eximus units and overguard. They just cant shoot him anyway. Stasis is Limbo's unique way of survival. Limbo was never meant to be hit. That's his playstyle. By giving him damage reduction you just make another health/shield tank frame like citrine, mesa and others.

[chaotea]

41 minutes ago, Djnichiro said:

The main thing of stasis is not the 100% slow. It's stopping everything including bullets. That's why he doesn't really care for eximus units and overguard. They just cant shoot him anyway. Stasis is Limbo's unique way of survival. Limbo was never meant to be hit. That's his playstyle. By giving him damage reduction you just make another health/shield tank frame like citrine, mesa and others.

I get that, and as i said Im a limbo fan. But even so Id say he just doesnt work very well right now. As you said, Overguards an issue, as is anything with power immunity or nullifiers.

Limbo was never meant to be hit, but he does get hit. In the current meta he gets hit alot. Theres a reason why damage reduction is present on so many frames. It works, and doesnt depend on playing against specific enemies.

And I understand the idea that stasis is his survivability, but this concept works to alter it so hes less dependant on just that. And bare in mind this: Novas Molecular Primes slow is capped at 75%. With this much slow alone enemies basically become unable to do damage. In my proposal, with my proposed stasis active, 80% movement speed reduction would achieve much the same.

And the idea that Stasis's current ability to slow bullets is part of his survival is completely wrong. If an enemy is in stasis, it cant attack. If its not in stasis, and not in the rift, it cant hurt limbo at all.

Im not ignorant of these effects, hence why ive opted for some base slow, and damage reduction with stasis being used to boost utility.

I understand where you're coming from, but I hope you can re-read this with the understanding that ive proposed changes as someone who does enjoy limbo, but doesnt use it as much as i would like because its just so unusable, and falls significantly behind other warframes in both survivability and CC.

[Djnichiro]

16 минут назад, chaotea сказал:

As you said, Overguards an issue, as is anything with power immunity or nullifiers.

Uh i said the opposite: 

Цитата

 It's stopping everything including bullets. ... That's why he doesn't really care for eximus units and overguard.

 

20 минут назад, chaotea сказал:

And the idea that Stasis's current ability to slow bullets is part of his survival is completely wrong. If an enemy is in stasis, it cant attack. If its not in stasis, and not in the rift, it cant hurt limbo at all.

Regular enemies can't attack in the rift but overguarded enemies (such as eximus) can.

[Djnichiro]

28 минут назад, chaotea сказал:

Limbo was never meant to be hit, but he does get hit. In the current meta he gets hit alot. Theres a reason why damage reduction is present on so many frames. It works, and doesnt depend on playing against specific enemies.

The only thing that can hit limbo in the rift are enemy abilities, which are not really hard to dodge.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

7 hours ago, chaotea said:

Sure, though i figure wukong does it better so theres no point on having it just for second place :D

True it's a personal preference thing for me.  I wish more frames had the ability to pass through barriers undetected with some sort of caveat. 

Limbo used to be my go to for Corpus survival for that alone. 

[chaotea]

On 2024-02-02 at 3:45 PM, Djnichiro said:

Uh i said the opposite: 

Quote

 It's stopping everything including bullets. ... That's why he doesn't really care for eximus units and overguard.

 

Sorry I miss-understood. When someone is described as 'doesn't care for' it means disliked. In the context (for future reference) you would say 'doesnt really care about.

Personally I do agree, not really found eximus to be an issue for any warframe but you do see it crop up as something people complain about.

On 2024-02-02 at 5:19 PM, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

True it's a personal preference thing for me.  I wish more frames had the ability to pass through barriers undetected with some sort of caveat. 

Limbo used to be my go to for Corpus survival for that alone. 

Wish operators had this function as default on dash.

Before wukong i just used Loki and his switch teleport.

[Sloth45]

Nullifiers should probably have themselves and everyone in their bubble ignore the rift plane, making them a threat to anything you're trying to protect with the rift, but not an immediate #*!%-you that shuts down Cataclysm entirely. That would still make them a sizable threat, but not a "Limbo is literally unusable against 2/4 main factions" threat.

[chaotea]

On 2024-02-11 at 5:59 AM, Sloth45 said:

Nullifiers should probably have themselves and everyone in their bubble ignore the rift plane, making them a threat to anything you're trying to protect with the rift, but not an immediate #*!%-you that shuts down Cataclysm entirely. That would still make them a sizable threat, but not a "Limbo is literally unusable against 2/4 main factions" threat.

I think nullifiers should rapidly increase the shrinking speed of cataclysm while touching it.

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2024-02-10 at 11:59 PM, Sloth45 said:

Nullifiers should probably have themselves and everyone in their bubble ignore the rift plane, making them a threat to anything you're trying to protect with the rift, but not an immediate #*!%-you that shuts down Cataclysm entirely. That would still make them a sizable threat, but not a "Limbo is literally unusable against 2/4 main factions" threat.

Honestly I like this idea a lot. Enemies could sneak in under their umbrella, but if you pop their nullifier bubble they all freeze in stasis.

[quxier]

Pretty nice idea... but that's not Limbo anymore.