How you could bring back Undertow for Hydroid

[Red_Bobcat]

Hi. I played years ago. Casually enough that I don't really care about the meta, but serious enough that I spent a decent amount of money on Platinum.

I liked turning into a puddle with Hydroid. It was the reason I mained him. I have returned to discover that it's been removed.

I don't care if it were any good, I thought it was fun. Please bring it back

As an idea of how to do that, whilst keeping the new ability. Why not have the skill do what it currently does, but if you hold the button then you turn into a puddle again like before?

Best of both worlds, everyone's happy and it only slows down game play if you want it to.

Which I do.

Please bring back Undertow, or update this new abillity to include it

Thank you

[MarakViri]

Even if [DE] did this, they would have to change the actual functionality of the Undertow portion to prevent it from allowing prolonged periods of non-participation (going AFK).

Now, could they do it? Sure. Hold-Cast Tidal Surge to create a puddle. They could even include the old synergies (enhances Tidal Surge and the kraken for Tentacle Swarm appears within the puddle).

I would personally recommend that, if they did this, removing the ability to hold enemies should be capped (like Grendel's Feast), and only "swallowing" those you attack with your tentacle, if they kept that particular feature.

Could even synergise it with Plunder, by having enemies that step onto the puddle suffer Corrosive damage and Status, and spread that damage to all enemies held by Tentacle Swarm (more synergy there too).

Maybe prevent you actually casting Plunder while you're a puddle, and making the energy drain an exponential increase (like Ember's immolate) or making it duration based to prevent perma-puddles from encouraging AFK.

And done. Now, can I see this happening? Maybe. Not in the near future though, since his rework may as well have been yesterday, but I can see it maybe happening.

 

[Red_Bobcat]

I hope it does. Having had a quick look and I'm not the only one upset about undertows removal.

It's made me rethink Warframe, and I'm now seeing it as just another live service game that will strip things away that you enjoy about the game whether you want it or not.

I liked all of your suggestions, and am glad to someone else thinks it could work to.

But to be honest, what I like about the puddle is the fact I can go AFK. I'm pretty casual at the game, and when I want to leave a mission having to wait a minute whilst dealing with overwhelming odds can suck. Especially when I die, resetting the timer so I have to try and survive another minute just because I'm done and want to leave. This is part of what I liked about the puddle (Oh, and the ability to move under those trip wire laser beam things). But mostly, it was just a fun unique ability that you could use to take a breather if things were getting a bit much.

It's not fun to have something interesting taken away, and replaced by an ability that's just a hand wave animation and some blue partical effects

I hope they bring it back

[MarakViri]

9 hours ago, Red_Bobcat said:

But to be honest, what I like about the puddle is the fact I can go AFK. I'm pretty casual at the game, and when I want to leave a mission having to wait a minute whilst dealing with overwhelming odds can suck

The AFK potential of the ability was its worst feature. Especially during active gameplay, as it forces your squadmates to deal with increased enemies that the afk player brings.

If you want to extract before your teammates do, and you can't keep yourself alive for the 60 second timer, you probably should have left sooner. Plus, Void Mode exists. That's basically Puddle-form right there.

Niche, potentially acceptable reasons for wanting it to be AFK-viable such as yours should not be an indicator that near permanent idling should be allowed. If anything, your example would indicate that the implementation of a shorter Extraction Timer would be useful.

Of course, that would cause Host Migration issues, so maybe have Host-Lead extraction remain at 60 seconds, but Client-Extraction drop to 30? So people who want to leave when they aren't Hosting can leave quickly, but the Host leaving provides enough time for the squad to make it to extraction?

[Red_Bobcat]

Yeah, I don't really understand most of what you said. I don't know what void mode is, and your solution to me having trouble leaving a match is to leave the match? How?

I'm getting vibes that Warframe isn't casual player friendly any more. I may just uninstall it

[MarakViri]

1 hour ago, Red_Bobcat said:

I don't know what void mode is

It's something you get after you either The Second Dream or complete The War Within (It's been so long I actually can't remember which) when you get access to your fifth ability.

Seeing as your profile shows that you have conpleted the latter, you have the ability to utilise said ability, and therefore Void Mode.

I see that you play on the PC, but have 0 xp attributed to any amp, so I'm guessing you haven't actually used your Operator in gameplay. 

Try activating your fifth ability, and then crouching. That is Void Mode.

1 hour ago, Red_Bobcat said:

your solution to me having trouble leaving a match is to leave the match? How?

Yes. Why is this my advice?

On 2024-02-17 at 12:38 AM, Red_Bobcat said:

... when I want to leave a mission having to wait a minute whilst dealing with overwhelming odds can suck

Based on this, I had assumed that you were referring to longer runs in endless mission types (such as Survival and Disruption), where you can extract at any point after completing the mission requirements.

If you find yourself wanting to extract alone, as in before your squadmates, by rushing towards the extraction point as soon as it becomes available, then yes, you will have a 1 minute extraction timer upon reaching said location, if (and only if) the entire squad is not at extraction. You could stay with your team and let them decide when you extract. You could also open the pause menu and leave the matchmaking lobby. This would put you through a host migration (unless you were the host), and then let you extract instantly. Wouldn't recommend that though, as it's exceptionally rude to the other players.

If you don't want an extraction timer, you can either put your lobby into something other than Public matchmaking. If you are the only player, extraction is instantaneous.

1 hour ago, Red_Bobcat said:

I'm getting vibes that Warframe isn't casual player friendly any more. I may just uninstall it

If you don't enjoy playing the game, then probably, as that's the entire point of a game.

And, while this game caters fairly heavily towards mid and late game in regards to available content, the earlier parts of the game aren't at a level that should provide difficulty to the players that utilise the strengths of their frame.

The current Hydroid is, especially in regular Star chart, borderline unkillable if you play (and build) him correctly. He is also classed as a Weapon-Platform frame, as he enhances your weapon damage.

Now, granted, the players who are past you in progression such as myself will probably have mods and weapons that you don't, and therefore be able to use synergies and gameplay features that you don't have access to.

Hydroid, however, doesn't require anything particularly late game to thrive, as his largest issue is probably energy economy.

If you are having trouble playing him, feel free to ask for tips or build advice, and I'll be happy to help how I can.

[Raarsi]

-Starts singing "Don't know whatcha got TIL IT'S GOOOOOOOOOOONE!!!!!"-

I understand OP, change is hard.  Sometimes you just have to adapt with the times like I had to, except now I've been playing him a lot more and he's really fun because he's nigh unkillable and I don't even have to think about things like armor stripping and--you know what?  Forget Undertow.  Who thought being a puddle set to walking speed was a good idea?

[PollexMessier]

From what I gather from this topic. You're just not very far in the game.

Undertow was an absolutely useless ability, and it's main functionality is basically super-ceded by voidmode as someone else said. The fact that you don't even know what that is means you've barely even skimmed the surface of the game.

If it really bothers you that much, it's probably best to quit. Cus DE likes to make changes like this pretty frequently. I'm still upset over them absolutely killing a certain movement ability for no good reason in the angels of the zariman update. But I highly suggest you actually play the game, like, at all, before getting that upset over a change like this.

If you want an ability that lets you just chill out in relative safety for a minute, there's quite a pile of frames capable of doing this. Valkyr, Frost, revenant, and limbo off the top of my head. Especially Limbo. Or you can just, play the game till you clear the war within and get void mode.

The game's very casual friendly. I probably see a new post made on the forums every single time I visit complaining that the game is too casual friendly. I disagree, but it's certainly far from a hardcore mmo. The right build can completely trivialize anything.

[Red_Bobcat]

(I have no idea how to quote like you guys did. I've clicked quote but nothing seemed to happen)

So, in short @PollexMessier  I think you're right, I'm not that far in. But yeah it does bother me. And it wasn't so much about chilling out. I liked turning into a puddle. I thought that was funny. I don't really care how useful the ability was, They could change it if they liked, make it more useful. But they've just removed it, which sucks because I enjoyed it. And if the ability was so under used, then why not impliment what I suggested? That way, the ability is useful now but also press and hold the button and it does the old thing like it used too. That way, the people that like it can still do it?

@Raarsi I suppose I get where you're coming from, but if the thing I found enjoyable isn't in the game any more then if I were going to change then I'll probably just change game. I won't yet, I'll take all your advice and give it a go. But honestly after these few days of play I've not been enjoying it any more. "Who thought being a puddle set to walking speed was a good idea? " I did. I liked it, and I don't see why it had to be removed and replaced. What's wrong with my suggestion of just having it happen when you hold the button instead of press?

@MarakViri  If I'm being honest, a lot of what you said there still was a bit alien to me. But I sense you're trying to help so thank you very much for the patience and reply. I'm going to give you advice a go and crouch whilst out of the suit. Is that the 5th ability? or does the 5th ability happen when you crouch? Also, I have no idea what this means "0 xp attributed to any amp".

Thank you all for listening to me moan.

I think like I said, ultimately I just liked turning into a puddle and will continue to be bummed that it's been taken away

 

 

 

[MarakViri]

1 hour ago, Red_Bobcat said:

If I'm being honest, a lot of what you said there still was a bit alien to me. But I sense you're trying to help so thank you very much for the patience and reply. I'm going to give you advice a go and crouch whilst out of the suit. Is that the 5th ability? or does the 5th ability happen when you crouch? Also, I have no idea what this means "0 xp attributed to any amp".

Ah. So, the fifth "ability" is basically just the form you are in when you're out of the suit. It has 2 abilities of its own that you have to unlock, but it has its own movement system (having Void Sling instead of Bullet Jump). Crouching in this form renders you intangible and invisible, so you cannot be hurt so long as you have Void Energy (the energy used by this form, which is the circle around your fifth ability on your ability bar).

The amp is the weapon of this form. Your profile showed that you had no experience to any of the amp weapons, which made me assume you hadn't used them at all, so I assumed you don't really use the alternate form / fifth ability all that much.

 

You are correct in that turning into a puddle was funny. Slurping enemies with the tentacles was also pretty fun. Moving slower than a corpse was less fun, but bearable. The main reason it got removed, and this is an assumption, is due to how many people would build for maximum efficiency, energy, and duration, and just go into a puddle and walk away from their PC/console and let their team carry them.

No idea why, since the Idel detection of the game means you don't get rewards, but I was unfortunate enough to be in a lobby with 3 Hydroid users pre-rework. I assumed they were farming with Pilfering Swarm, so I let them be. It wasn't until I realised there was no loot near them, and I was running out of life support that it clicked that they were perma-puddling. (I can be very slow sometimes).

If the ability was reworked properly, then it could be very useful. But the new ability is, for more active players, a far better ability. I still say integrating a reworked version into Tidal Surge would be fun, but that's probably not likely.

[Binket_]

On 2024-02-16 at 9:38 AM, Red_Bobcat said:

what I like about the puddle is the fact I can go AFK

I'mma be blunt, half the Hydroids I ran into before his rework would use this ability in public squads and contribute absolutely nothing.
Quite literally on par with a Limbo or Octavia sitting just out of range of everything going on, leeching off of whatever drops, affinity, etc. is done by others.

... and call me old fashioned if you must-- but I think players like that either need to go home or get banned. I didn't install the game to babysit them.
Especially if their existence is causing me (or my squad) issues. Be it overburdening me (or my squad) with too many enemies or simply just enticing an auto-ban system into flagging me as some form of "booster" account. A lot of factors are at play, no matter how small-- but it's obnoxious all the same and the root problem is undeniable.

So I tend to EXTREMELY dislike AFK players. Beyond just being morally shallow, that is.
^{(This is also something that applies to games outside of Warframe too, so it's not just this game that has this problem.)}

 

However, as some suggestions put it? Reintroducing it using current mechanics as a form of Augment is a good idea.
Namely by changing it to be more engaging to the player while making it an optional extension of the kit.
I personally don't see myself using Undertow, but I could see uses for it IF properly implemented.

Also because I firmly believe Augments are kinda poorly executed in their current state.
If they're upgrades to an existing ability, they should feel like... well, upgrades and not mandatory applicants (Chroma's 1 or 4 for example) ror QoL additions. (Titania's Passive for instance)

... having more than one Augment for an ability (since they do naturally conflict) also gives some idea of "choice" in the ballpark as a "skilltree".
Modding is already kinda in that same idea, but having different augments to choose from for a single ability further adds to it.

Just my two cents though.

[Ruison]

You can check my Profile. Over 50% of my game time is on Hydroid.

Yes, I am upset and Angry that they removed the ability. Hydroid deserved WAY more than what he got he is 10 friggin year's old this year. They could have done something cool and unique but no. They turned him into another generic passive weapon platform like 14 other war frames (Dont know exact number) because people complained that he did no damage.

 

So instead of leaning more into his theme they went against it. Could have had Phase Change Mechanic tired to Undertow, Exalted Hand Cannon (Replaced Barrage), added stealth to the kit, made Moving in Underow faster or SOMETHING that made him more unique. Oh yay another activate passive win game frame like: Garra, Mesa, Mirage, Trinity, Rhino, Limbo, Baruk, Oberon, Revenant, Wukong, Chroma (Excluding Stealth Frames).

 

They should have fixed his stupid bugs that they have neglected for 8 years instead of removing the ability. Enemies we're suppose to travel with you while in Undertow and Stay in Undertow. Funny thing enemies could LITTERALLY walk out of it.

 

##IMO:

With all my experience of Playing Hydroid the Ideal rework would have been:

#Passive:

Plunder - Reduced affect of the current ability that Activates on a ground finisher. We all agree the old passive was awful.

 

##First Ability:

"Useless and Unreliable"

"Ragdoll's Enemies"

Hand Cannon - Conjours a Pistol made of water that fires a single Salvo of cannon barrage that deals damage based on the Secondary Weapon equiped.

Explosive weapons like Angstrum cause the Salvo to Explode (Blast Proc) and ragdoll.

Bolt weapons like his Signature weapon Balistica cause the Salvo to Pierce (Punture Proc).

Beam weapons like Gammacor cause the Ability to continuously fire (Barrage) until you run out of energy.

Regular guns just apply the damage.

If there is an ability to Replace it is Corrosive barrage, but we don't have to replace it just change it's function and how it's implemented. We don't have to have the ability be influenced by mods but if it's affects are altered based on equiped weapons instead. Hydroid was consider originally scoped to be a Pirate Corsair or Pistol and Sword frame. We have NO Warframes (Except Mesa) that have effects or are affected by Secondary weapons. This now gives you the choice of Ragdoll or not to ragdoll and now more reliable because the ability is reliant on player aim.

 

##Second ability:

Tidal Surge - The only thing that ever needed to be done was Fix the hit box everything else can stay the same as before. This has always been his best ability.

 

##Third Ability:

#Undertow - The Subject of debate...

"AFK Players"

"Meme Ability"

Radial pull if you press your first ability tentacles reach out and pull enemies into Undertow. Cost Energy Percentage (5%) based on number of enemies pulled Capping at 10 (50%). Numbers can change but cost needs to be high.

Ramping energy Drain to fix the AFK players. Virtually free when used briefly but costly at length allowing for a maximum of 60 seconds in Undertow. Energy Drain is reset when Tidal Surge is used.

 

This ability has always needed pull. Energy drain fixes the afk player issue and prevents trolling from trapping enemies in undertow. Yes we have weapon mods and Operator mods that pull enemies but both will pull enemies OUT of undertow.

 

##Forth ability

#Tentacle Swarm -

"It does no damage"

"It's hard too shoot Ragdolling enemies"

The best thing for Tenetacle swarm is to give it the same damage as Undertow. Time to kill on an impaled enemy should never be greater than 10 seconds if they are not killed they get dropped. With this change no more enemies getting flung around and no more trolling with Swarm.

 

 

##Augments

Tradition Warframes have had an Augment for each ability I don't think Hydroid should. I'd rather see Hydroid get Audments that influences his whole kit.

That being said I'd remove all of his augments from the game and introduce 4 new ones.

 

#Poluted Waters -

All of Hydroids abilities (Including Passive finisher) apply a corrosive proc. Each ability can only apply one proc. So you can't Tidal surge something 2 times for 2 procs.

The Meta full armor strip the dominates the endgame today. "If a Warframe does not have a Full strip they are not Viabe anymore." Rewards ability chaining playstyle with combos.

 

#Healing Waters-

All of Hydroids abilities provide a healing affect to Hydroid and Allies.

Be nice to have a support setup for Hydroid that's not relocated to a 10 meter puddle. Surge > Ground Finisher > Undertow > Swarm. With this combo the enemy would be fully Stripped of Armor and taking hp% damage.

 

#Cleansing Waters-

All of Hydroids abilities apply a debuff removing Affect to Hydroid and Allies.

Same as Previous Augment.

 

#Pilfiring Waters-

All Hydroids abilities apply a Debuff to enemies that when killed drop Additional loot.

"He has to kill to get the Loot"

"Make it Apply on Touch"

The Community has complained ad requested this since the addition of Pilfiring swarm. DE removed the lot scaling with power strength a long time ago. So, rather than Hydroid and Korah fight against each other give them some way to co exist. Hydroid could Barrage and Surge enemies into strangle Dome where they are killed.

 

Post's my opinion I have ZERO hope that these changes will becmade

 

 

 

 

[MarakViri]

8 hours ago, Ruison said:

Tradition Warframes have had an Augment for each ability I don't think Hydroid should. I'd rather see Hydroid get Audments that influences his whole kit.

So, basically, Hydroid should be unique in this? Because that sounds ... honestly stupid. That said, all the augment ideas you proposed sound like good Universal Augments.

Universal Augments do exist, given the existence of [Biting Frost], but replacing Ability specific Augments is not the way to go.

That said, your actual suggestion for his kit ... don't get me wrong, it's interesting, but Hydroid has something like 3% of players using him before his rework, and his new passive and [Plunder] are the reason most players use him, and it's because he is so similar to other frames.

Of course, completely removing his identity was a consequence of over-tuning his capabilities, but let's take a crack at this.

8 hours ago, Ruison said:

Passive

Plunder - Reduced affect of the current ability that Activates on a ground finisher. We all agree the old passive was awful.

We do all agree that his old passive was awful. I feel that your suggestion isn't much better. Granted, it's engaging, I'll give you that. But, both <Tidal Surge> and <Undertow> prevent Ground Finishers altogether.

That means that you are either using his old passive with more reliability if <Tentacle Swarm> is active, or ... doing something with the new <Hand Cannon>?

His current Corrosion Passive is significantly better for actual function, even if none of his abilities applied the effect, simply for, as you stated, a frame that can't full armor strip is less viable. 

8 hours ago, Ruison said:

First Ability

Hand Cannon - Conjours a Pistol made of water that fires a single Salvo of cannon barrage that deals damage based on the Secondary Weapon equiped.

Okay, this is interesting. It does prevent you from having conplete loadout freedom, partially, due to the inclusion of additional effects based on your Secondary though. You would be better off making this an exalted weapon with alternate firing modes.

That would remove the secondary weapon synergies, admittedly. But being able to switch from your equipped Hystrix to a portable Zarr / Knell would be more functional, I feel. Though, that's up to personal preference.

8 hours ago, Ruison said:

Second Ability

Tidal Surge - The only thing that ever needed to be done was Fix the hit box everything else can stay the same as before. This has always been his best ability.

I mean ... yeah. It's a really good ability. I still say that incorporating <Undertow> into this to make it a Tap-Hold ability is best, because his new <Plunder> is actually an incredible ability that catapults Hydroid into the upper tiers in the way the rest of his kit, including <Undertow>, just don't. 

8 hours ago, Ruison said:

Third Ability

Undertow - Radial pull if you press your first ability tentacles reach out and pull enemies into Undertow. Cost Energy Percentage (5%) based on number of enemies pulled Capping at 10 (50%). Numbers can change but cost needs to be high.

Ramping energy Drain to fix the AFK players. Virtually free when used briefly but costly at length allowing for a maximum of 60 seconds in Undertow. Energy Drain is reset when Tidal Surge is used.

Okay, so a percentage based drain is very steep, especially when paired with exponential drain. Having the drain increase based on captured enemies though makes a lot of sense.

Now, my initial idea for Undertow being added as a feature of <Tidal Surge> involved <Tempest Barrage>, so I'll state that and then try to figure it out with <Hand Cannon>.

So, Undertow drains 25 energy per second (dropping to 10/s with Efficiency and Duration) at base, with an additional 5 energy (unaffected by mods) for each enemy captured, which can be achieved by "attacking" the same way it was before the ability was removed, or impacting them with <Tidal Surge>. Captured enemies lose 1% of their maximum HP every second, increasing by 50% with each energy increase, resetting with <Tidal Surge>. Attacking with the Tentacle deals Corrosive damage with a 200% status chance.

The energy drain increases by 100% every 5 seconds (going to 50/s, then 100/s, with enemy drain going from 5 to 10, then 20, etc), with the accumulated drain being reset upon using <Tidal Surge>, which costs 50% less while Undertow is active.

While Undertow is active, Hydroid cannot pick up items or receive energy from any source.

Activating <Tempest Barrage> while in Undertow will launch all accumulated enemies with the barrage, dealing additional damage based on the CurrentHP of the captured enemies, and dealing 10% of the launched targets MaxHP as damage to that target. If a launched target is killed, a portion of their MaxHP is added to the remainder of the Barrage.

Activating <Tentacle Swarm> while in Undertow will localised the Swarm to the puddle, and it will move with you. Attacking a captured enemy will deal damage to all enemies captured by the Tentacle Swarm, and will apply the 200% status chance of Corrosive to all enemies, and will gain 100% damage for every enemy stored within Undertow. Using <Tidal Surge> while this is active will cause the Kraken to throw all of the captured enemies into Undertow.

<Plunder> cannot be activated while Undertow is active (assuming Undertow gets tied into Tidal Surge, which I feel is the better solution).

Now, as for integrating it into <Hand Cannon>, maybe having the damage increase for every captured enemy or something?

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

Fourth Ability

Tentacle Swarm - The best thing for Tenetacle swarm is to give it the same damage as Undertow. Time to kill on an impaled enemy should never be greater than 10 seconds if they are not killed they get dropped. With this change no more enemies getting flung around and no more trolling with Swarm.

I mean, I agree. Having them suffer some kind of increased damage (or using Undertow as I listed above) would greatly increase to KPS of the ability. Adding an increase to Damage taken from <Hand Cannon> / <Tempest Barrage> might be good too.

Augments

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

Poluted Waters -

All of Hydroids abilities (Including Passive finisher) apply a corrosive proc. Each ability can only apply one proc. So you can't Tidal surge something 2 times for 2 procs.

So, I disagree with the universal thing, but the limitation of this augment (once per ability) seems to exist for no reason. Making this a Hand Cannon augment, giving it increased Status chance, would be a better alternative. 

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

Healing Waters-

All of Hydroids abilities provide a healing affect to Hydroid and Allies.

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

Cleansing Waters-

All of Hydroids abilities apply a debuff removing Affect to Hydroid and Allies.

I would mix these two together as the Tidal Surge/Undertow ability;

Pure Waters

Tidal Surge Augment: Enemies standing atop the Undertow or struck by the Tidal Surge are cleansed of Status effects and gain immunity, and regain (5/10/15/20) HP per second for (3/6/9/12) seconds.

This is a more realistic augment, mixing the current augment and adding the healing from Rousing Plunder (which is horrible and should be replaced (and yes, I still think Plunder should stay as an ability))

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

Pilfiring Waters-

All Hydroids abilities apply a Debuff to enemies that when killed drop Additional loot.

Yeah, just keep this as Pilfering Swarm. Maybe have the odds increase, or have an additional effect (have tentacles deal Toxin damage or something), but I feel like this is too good, unless the drop chance was tanked to below Ore Gaze levels.

[Ruison]

14 hours ago, MarakViri said:

 

14 hours ago, MarakViri said:

I mean ... yeah. It's a really good ability. I still say that incorporating <Undertow> into this to make it a Tap-Hold ability is best, because his new <Plunder> is actually an incredible ability that catapults Hydroid into the upper tiers in the way the rest of his kit, including <Undertow>, just don't. 

The issue is that Plunder is the Lazy way to fix what Hydroid could already do. The only thing Plunder added to his kit was reliability and ease of use and a power crepted Armor/Damage boost. Player will ALWAYS gravitate to what ever frame does the most damage. We've gone through that cycle so many times. In the next few patch they'll nerf Plunder and people will stop playing him again. History will Repeats it's self like Ash, Excalibur, Mesa, Mirage, Chroma, Harrow and many other frames suffered this fate they are still played though.

Maybe the reason of why for the 3% is because since Hydroids Release all he has ever received was nerf?( Until last update). Undertow used to be a 40m ability, Pilfering Swarm used to scale off power strength. They never fixed his bugs. I see clearly why people avoided him.

Surge>Undertow>Barrage combo with Corrosive Barrage would full strip and kill enemies very quickly.  The only issue was the unreliability of Tempest Barrage. Tempest Barrage problem of trying to make a 10m ability hit a 5m ability. Only 50% of the Salvos are going to even hit, even less because of Salvos hitting terrain. Your looking at a 1/16 salvo's hitting Undertow and Applying a Corrosive Proc. The only place you could reliably do this we're open World Maps.

Why I proposed the Polluted Waters Augment to address this. Making the Armor strip more reliable while also encouraging the chaining his abilities together.

 

14 hours ago, MarakViri said:

We do all agree that his old passive was awful. I feel that your suggestion isn't much better. Granted, it's engaging, I'll give you that. But, both <Tidal Surge> and <Undertow> prevent Ground Finishers altogether.

Funny thing is that they used too allow Ground finisher. With Undertow you used to be able to double tap the ability to knock down enemies in a close proximity.

Tidal surge... If they didn't get flung through or bounce off walls a match 10. They were open to Ground finishers.

I used Prisma Obex with it's sequence mod to take advantage of knocking down enemies. That massing Explosion of Damage was so damn satisfying... Then Sqeunce got nerfed. At one point (Probably a bug) you could use covert lethality as well.

Why I ALWAYS wanted his Passiive to trigger off of ground finishers instead of slams. That's the reason for the suggestion. I feel like that is where Plunder belongs.

14 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Okay, this is interesting. It does prevent you from having conplete loadout freedom, partially, due to the inclusion of additional effects based on your Secondary though. You would be better off making this an exalted weapon with alternate firing modes.

That would remove the secondary weapon synergies, admittedly. But being able to switch from your equipped Hystrix to a portable Zarr / Knell would be more functional, I feel. Though, that's up to personal preference.

The only Critera I even care about is it being a targeted attack. It could be a Tentacle Lash or a Water bolt as well so, we can point it at Tentacle swarm and end it early. Doesn't need damage or some effect.

The Hand Cannon thing to me is just the most Thematic what to do it. Hell we can give it the mine layer treatment instead of it being influenced by secondaries. Even the alternate fire modes you suggested. Explosive shot, Grpae Shot, Chain Shot.... Those sound nice but it's a fever dream to think we're going to get anything like that.

 

14 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Okay, so a percentage based drain is very steep, especially when paired with exponential drain. Having the drain increase based on captured enemies though makes a lot of sense.

Now, my initial idea for Undertow being added as a feature of <Tidal Surge> involved <Tempest Barrage>, so I'll state that and then try to figure it out with <Hand Cannon>.

So, Undertow drains 25 energy per second (dropping to 10/s with Efficiency and Duration) at base, with an additional 5 energy (unaffected by mods) for each enemy captured, which can be achieved by "attacking" the same way it was before the ability was removed, or impacting them with <Tidal Surge>. Captured enemies lose 1% of their maximum HP every second, increasing by 50% with each energy increase, resetting with <Tidal Surge>. Attacking with the Tentacle deals Corrosive damage with a 200% status chance.

The energy drain increases by 100% every 5 seconds (going to 50/s, then 100/s, with enemy drain going from 5 to 10, then 20, etc), with the accumulated drain being reset upon using <Tidal Surge>, which costs 50% less while Undertow is active.

While Undertow is active, Hydroid cannot pick up items or receive energy from any source.

Activating <Tempest Barrage> while in Undertow will launch all accumulated enemies with the barrage, dealing additional damage based on the CurrentHP of the captured enemies, and dealing 10% of the launched targets MaxHP as damage to that target. If a launched target is killed, a portion of their MaxHP is added to the remainder of the Barrage.

Activating <Tentacle Swarm> while in Undertow will localised the Swarm to the puddle, and it will move with you. Attacking a captured enemy will deal damage to all enemies captured by the Tentacle Swarm, and will apply the 200% status chance of Corrosive to all enemies, and will gain 100% damage for every enemy stored within Undertow. Using <Tidal Surge> while this is active will cause the Kraken to throw all of the captured enemies into Undertow.

<Plunder> cannot be activated while Undertow is active (assuming Undertow gets tied into Tidal Surge, which I feel is the better solution).

Now, as for integrating it into <Hand Cannon>, maybe having the damage increase for every captured enemy or something?

Undertow getting tide into Tidal Surge is probably the only way we will get undertow back.

All DE had to do was fix the bugs and add a penalty for Afking in it. You already couldn't pick up or regen Energy in it.

Hard part about Shooting enemies out of Undertow is the camera. It's too low to allow you to shoot enemies out.

DE it already has the tech to fix enemies staying in undertow bug. It functions the same as Grendels Consume. Why didn't they Adapt Undertow?

Undertow itself was already one of the strongest abilities in the game. That's why it got nerfed so hard. Adding anything to it, even my Radial pull, is asking to much.

I only wanted Tidal Surge and Undertow to do what it said on the tool tip.

"Tidal Surge Deposites enemies in Undertow"

IT NEVER DID THIS.

"Enemies travel with Undertow"

IT NEVER DID THIS

(It kinda did but enemies stayed a the edge of the ability 40m if you lost LOS they fell out.)

These are the two bugs that never got fixed. Enemies in Undertow never traveled with it. They got drug under the map and stayed there if Hydroid moved more than 40m or Ran into a wall enemies were spat back out. Why? When DE nerf the Range of Undertow they made a booboo in the code. The Radius of undertow for captured enemies remained at 40m the OLD radius of the ability. Yes, Undertow had conflicting Radius. I got 9+ years of Hydroid to back up this claim I know all of his bugs and could probably recreate him in Unreal from scratch.

Tidal Surge suffered for the same issue as Tempest Barrage. A 10m ability trying to hit a 5m ability. Unless you hit enemies with the center of Tidal surge they would ALWAYS be flung instead of being deposited into Undertow. Tidal surges hit box needed to be cone shaped an not a flat plane.

Apologise but I get a bit heated talking about the bugs.

 

As for the Augments... It's just something different.

Edited February 21 by Ruison

[Strikerays]

People still asks for an afk frame that does nothing but slows down other people in the squad?

and the worst... still asking for immunity and AFK Farming? Jesus Christ... can you guys stop pressing your immunity button for just a second, AND REALIZE THAT KIND OF GAMEPLAY is the reason people got bored in the game then eventually leave? why do you even play then? to press a button then go afk and get back 10 mins later to just leave? is not enough with just being basically a god in this game thanks to the insane power creep that the game has rn? holy crap, hommie.

[TheCleverJoker]

Didn't read most of the numerous comments on this so it may have already been suggested but, perhaps if you where in puddle mode you could do kraken like stuff, maybe a pull like ability with a tendril. You could move the krakens AOE with you as you moved. I don't really play Hydroid much anymore mainly used him to get polymer but perhaps could be a cool addition back to his kit and make him have both the newer playstyles and the older ones.

[Hypertion]

On 2024-02-18 at 2:40 AM, Raarsi said:

-Starts singing "Don't know whatcha got TIL IT'S GOOOOOOOOOOONE!!!!!"-

I understand OP, change is hard.  Sometimes you just have to adapt with the times like I had to, except now I've been playing him a lot more and he's really fun because he's nigh unkillable and I don't even have to think about things like armor stripping and--you know what?  Forget Undertow.  Who thought being a puddle set to walking speed was a good idea?

i dont get why they just didnt increase the speed of the puddle allowing you to zip around like a tidal flow that sinks enemies into it... they could have combined Undertow and Tidal Surge into the same ability, with Surge acting as the "dash" for undertow. 

Just because a implementation of an idea is bad does not mean the idea itself was bad, there was always potential for puddle to be a fast paced and fun option, but it seems like with many abilities people only see how to replace with something else rather than fix the issues.. its like building a entirely new PC because your current one does not have enough ram...

On 2024-03-01 at 1:10 AM, TheCleverJoker said:

Didn't read most of the numerous comments on this so it may have already been suggested but, perhaps if you where in puddle mode you could do kraken like stuff, maybe a pull like ability with a tendril. You could move the krakens AOE with you as you moved. I don't really play Hydroid much anymore mainly used him to get polymer but perhaps could be a cool addition back to his kit and make him have both the newer playstyles and the older ones.

ya you could already do that... you could freely send out a tentacle to pull enemies into the puddle.. i even subsumed Pull onto my Hydroid puddle build to pull in groups at once. you had those options already.

 

Edited March 2 by Hypertion