Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty"

[Skoomaseller]

12 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

i have pictured myself as the chad that means i am correct

[schilds]

You guys are really working yourself into a lather over an optional mechanic.

[Yami_Industries]

7 hours ago, Hexerin said:

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to turn on a brain cell and figure out the actual reason behind these RNG loadout systems. It's so painfully obvious, but I hate always being the one having to spell it out for people.

If that's the case then why is Excalibur umbra/stalker/weapons I never used or owned from duviri and stuff in rotation? If that was the case we wouldn't have the quellor or frames that are vaulted at a given moment in the pool 

 

Also the teshin offerings wouldn't show weapons that aren't in the pool before entering duviri but after the fact being like: "if you liked the weapon here it is in the market" without the constant popups or AAA nag about whats in the market after every mission you get with apex legends/ black desert/ elder scrolls online etc.

I like the option of seeing what I just used for later reference instead of being told to buy it or farm it up. 

 

Take the game at your own pace. If de can't have the mentality pocketpair has when it comes to declining player base as long as they are still afloat and can drop something for us to come back to I don't have any reason to rush for it

[Raikh]

5 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

The people of the forums themselves are the minority. The people who enjoyed things in the game don't come here and write a 20-page essay about supporting them. They are busy enjoying the content. Look at Duviri for example, is there enough backlash that causes the number of concurrent players to tank on Steam? Nope, it's mostly business as usual. 

Ofcourse they are, but at the same time we simply don't know what the silent majority thinks. Not everyone being here to give their opinion doesn't mean the majority is happy with every feature. People can be enjoying Warframe w/o engaging with any of the endgame systems. I'm wondering how many people even actively play SP Circuit. So far I've gotten the impression that Duviri Incarnons are a lot less popular than is characteristic for the amount of power they offer.

And if the Dante Update is delivering interesting content overall, ofc players will be happy with it, even if Deep Archimedea was horrible, the other content might just be enough and they simply ignore it existing like they possibly did with previous "endgame" activities as it just seemed unfeasible or overwhelming to them. And if thats truly the case the voices here might matter a little more than one would initially think.

[schilds]

I think DE are aware it will be likely be niche and not for everyone. They poke a little fun at it being "sweaty".

The key point is that it's optional. You are not being forced to do it. You do not need those arcanes asap to "win" the game.

Heck you can easily find complaints that those two legendary arcanes are niche.

If you don't want to collect every frame and weapon then *don't*. It's not necessary.

 

Some people are simply not satisfied unless every bit of content is built for them. Which is *impossible*. Hence they are impossible to satisfy and DE should not bother trying to do so.

Edited March 1 by schilds

[Raikh]

5 minutes ago, schilds said:

The key point is that it's optional. You are not being forced to do it. You do not need those arcanes asap to "win" the game.

Heck you can easily find complaints that those two legendary arcanes are niche.

Playing the game is optional, its always such a silly argument. I want to engage with the content, I want those rewards even if just to toy around with them a little because I like playing the game. So if I think a given activity that would usually appeal to me looks to be incredibly unfun to me I'm giving my feedback on that.

That doesn't mean I'm losing sleep over this or that I'm getting FOMO over possibly not getting those Arcanes. Hell its likely more efficient to farm plat and buy them once the prices drop with the Update, so one way or the other I will have an avenue to get them even if I were to skip on that content. But thats not what I'd really like to do. I want to play that content and earn those rewards myself but I also want to have fun doing that.
Its probably not even gonna be hard to do, I just don't see it being fun to do with any consistency.

[schilds]

27 minutes ago, Raikh said:

its always such a silly argument

You're ignoring the *context* of that statement, which is people here claiming they are being "forced" to into rng loadouts. No they are not. They are claiming this is "p2w". No it's not. You don't "win" by getting these arcanes, or by getting them faster. In fact, once most people get those arcanes the top reward is effectively dead. Arguably, since you will still get the arcanes as rng rewards at lower restriction tiers, the top tier is dead *from the start*. Only people in a hurry or who want to trade them will bother. Most people will stop at gold tier restrictions.

That's what I mean by "optional". Not "it's your choice to play it nerr nerr".

Quote

So if I think a given activity that would usually appeal to me looks to be incredibly unfun to me ... That doesn't mean I'm losing sleep over this or that I'm getting FOMO

Sorry but you're contradicting yourself. You want to play the game mode, and you don't have any problem ignoring the legendary arcanes, which means you won't be "forced" to use all the restrictions. So what's "unfun", exactly?

Some severe cognitive dissonance going on here.

27 minutes ago, Raikh said:

I want to engage with the content

See the point above. You can totally engage with it. You won't even miss the arcanes so what's stopping you just going into those missions with whatever loadout you want?

That said, different people find different things fun. DE can't satisfy everyone simultaneously. Insisting that *all* content be fun for *you* is an impossible standard that DE can never meet.

 

It's a bit like saying "there are frames I don't like to play, but I want all frames to be fun for me to play, so I'm going to petititon DE to change them all to suit me". Yeah, all frames should be fun to play. For *someone*. It doesn't have to be *you*, specifically. And just because not everything is implemented to suit you doesn't mean there is some nefarious plot going on.

Edited March 1 by schilds

[Traumtulpe]

30 minutes ago, schilds said:

You don't "win" by getting these arcanes

You're just completely dead wrong here. getting the loot *is* winning in this game. You don't "win" by clearing a mission, that's completely irrelevant, missions are just carbon copies of each other and utterly inconsequential. The sole question is "did I get the loot" after farming for 5 hours? No it didn't drop? Then I lost.

There's an excuse to make for conditions like in sorties "equip a bow" or the like, but "equip those mastery fodder dual pistols (yeah, those ones that are exactly the same as the 10 other dual pistols, just with worse stats!) that you sold for 5k credits 7 years ago because you didn't want to waste 20 plat on weapon slots for useless garbage" is just grifting.

[schilds]

4 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

getting the loot *is* winning in this game

Yeah nah. This is a *you* thing. There may be some people who are similar to you, but there will be plenty more who are *different*. They value different things. They enjoy different things. They have different goals. They play games for different reasons.

Edited March 1 by schilds

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, schilds said:

Yeah nah. This is a *you* thing. There may be some people who are similar to you, but there will be plenty more who are *different*. They value different things. They enjoy different things. They have different goals. They play games for different reasons.

No, getting stuff is literally all there is to Warframe. That is literally the game. Technically there's also shooting (since it's a "looter-shooter"), but as I said, that part is literally inconsequential, you can't "win" that part - all missions are the same, the only thing that differs is the loot.

[Raikh]

3 minutes ago, schilds said:

You're ignoring the *context* of that statement, which is people here claiming they are being "forced" to into rng loadouts.

They are absolutely being "forced" to commit to all the restrictions if they want all the rewards. I find your angle on this to be brutally ignorant. Maybe I was hoping to see somewhat more challenging content and want to experience it in full but am sorely disappointed in the way that supposed challenge is generated?

Content is there to be played. Its sometimes okay to say "this isn't for me" and not do a particular thing while still enjoying the game as a whole. But it shouldn't be a stock answer to everything.

5 minutes ago, schilds said:

Sorry but you're contradicting yourself. You want to play the game mode, and you don't have any problem ignoring the legendary arcanes. Which means you won't be "forced" to use all the restrictions. So what's "unfun", exactly?

I literally explained that despite having ways around it, I'd rather have fun earning those rewards myself in more challenging content but do not see it being fun to do so as its currently being proposed, so whether I just end up playing it anyway or skip around it my experience is gonna be worse than if this game mode on its highest difficulty was more fun to me. I don't see any contradiction here.

7 minutes ago, schilds said:

Some severe cognitive dissonance going on here.

If we're gonna play that game, all I'm seeing here is either a severe lack of reading comprehension or someone too stuck on their high horse to look beyond their own preconceived opinion about other players.

38 minutes ago, schilds said:

That said, different people find different things fun. DE can't satisfy everyone simultaneously. Insisting that *all* content be fun for *you* is an impossible standard that DE can never meet.

Unlikely, yes. But that doesn't mean everything they do is automatically a good addtion. And I haven't said all content should be catered to me. There are things I have never liked too much in this game and I've made my peace with that at large. I however was looking forward to them finally doing more endgame-y content and I simply don't like the direction they are going with that.

[schilds]

8 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, getting stuff is literally all there is to Warframe. That is literally the game. Technically there's also shooting (since it's a "looter-shooter"), but as I said, that part is literally inconsequential, you can't "win" that part - all missions are the same, the only thing that differs is the loot.

This is *you*. Not everyone is you or has your mindset.

Edited March 1 by schilds

[schilds]

@Raikh 

Mate, "cognitive dissonance" is not (intended as) an insult. It's saying you're holding two contradictory beliefs/values/povs/whatever at once. Normally it refers to the sense of discomfort arising from doing so, but since you're obviously comfortable, I guess it's not a technically correct usage of the term.

What you have responded with is, however, a blatant personal insult. Just because you cannot come to agreement with someone does not mean that either they are deficient, or that (they believe) you are deficient. Furthermore, I don't have a *pre* - conceived opinion of you (or others). My opinion of you (which I have not even shared) has been entirely conceived *during the course of this discussion*.

In any case, you apparently can't see the contradiction¹ that I see, and I don't have the energy to try reconcile our different viewpoints, so let's leave it there.

 

^{1. Perhaps if you lean more toward the Traumtulpe mindset, where earning the loot is the whole point and not so much the shooter part, then maybe it's not a contradiction. I'll examine that possibility another day :P.}

[Raikh]

10 minutes ago, schilds said:

Mate, "cognitive dissonance" is not (intended as) an insult. It's saying you're holding two contradictory beliefs/values/povs/whatever at once. Normally it refers to the sense of discomfort arising from doing so, but since you're obviously comfortable, I guess it's not a technically correct usage of the term.

You can say its not an insult but ultimately you decided to discard my point due to a presumed state of mind, rather than actually engage the arguments. You can try to make it sound like a factual statement but you know, insults can be somewhat factual. Doesn't mean its a productive way to communicate.

I can also say that I didn't mean it as an insult and is merely how I perceived your post but at the end of the day its just condescending demeanor and I merely examplified that. Its just disappointing for a discussion to go that way.

Agree to disagree is totally fine with me. And I respect different opinions on the topic. I just don't like it if thats being used to attempt to shut down discussion altogether. Not everything is for everyone but at the same time its important to gauge for whom content is and what the people attracted by it on principle think about it.

 

 

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, schilds said:

[...]

Go play a random exterminate mission on the star chart. When you reach extraction, did you win? No you didn't. Nothing changed. The mission is the same as the 35930 previous extermination missions you cleared. You had no chance of failure. There was no challenge. You didn't "level up", you didn't "progress".

That's why players don't do this. Nobody just goes and plays a random starchart mission. Except when it's an alert or something. When you get a potato blueprint, suddenly players are interested. Suddenly clearing the mission is "winning". Obviously it's the loot.

Edited March 1 by Traumtulpe

[schilds]

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

You can say its not an insult but ultimately you decided to discard my point due to a presumed state of mind,

No, I pointed out that your "points" contradict each other and "discarded" them on that basis. Actually, I'm looking to see how they are reconciled. What I am not doing is accepting them both at once, because that would mean I'm adopting your contradiction. Given you simply repeated what you'd already said, and don't see the problem, the contradiction remains (in my eyes, if not yours) and there's no where for the discussion to go.

Edited March 1 by schilds

[schilds]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Go play a random exterminate mission on the star chart. When you reach extraction, did you win? No you didn't. Nothing changed. The mission is the same as the 35930 previous extermination missions you cleared. You had no chance of failure. There was no challenge. You didn't "level up", you didn't "progress".

That's why players don't do this. Nobody just goes and plays a random starchart mission. Except when it's an alert or something. When you get a potato blueprint, suddenly players are interested. Suddenly clearing the mission is "winning". Obviously it's the loot.

Ok, I'm going to repeat myself one more time. This Is You.

I, and others, are not you.

This is how *you* work. This is what *you* do. This is what goes on in *your* head. *Your* head does not sit on *every* neck.

Edited March 1 by schilds

[pwnSacrifice]

My issue is twofold:

1. This is a serious missed opportunity for actually challenging content. In-mission optional challenges or skill based thresholds could have been used here. It's a shame that we have so few optional challenges in missions (that one tutorial mission and dragon vaults come to mind)

2.  It feels more like a penalty than a bonus. Arbitrations and Archon hunts use this same random element but it's a bonus. Here I am being "penalized" for not going with random equipment. They are not equivalent. It's also a very real possibility that it only pulls from gear you own, in which I'm being penalized for having all the gear in the game (if I only had the best gear, that's all it would roll), or it'll prevent players who don't have everything from doing it in the first place (because of unlucky rolling of gear they don't have). If it's a mix of both again having everything is detrimental.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still very much looking forward to this game mode, but this "optional" challenge aspect is poorly thought out and is a bit of a let down. I don't even care about the arcanes, I just want a fun challenge.

 

[JohnMorte]

12 minutes ago, schilds said:

Ok, I'm going to repeat myself one more time. This Is You.

I, and others, are not you.

This is how *you* work. This is what *you* do. This is what goes on in *your* head. *Your* head does not sit on *every* neck.

true, however you do not speak for everyone else either. now that everyone's opinion is fully canceled out, everyone can go home because there is literally nothing to discuss anymore.

@Traumtulpe is not incorrect in his assertion. there is a reason this is called a "looter shooter" and not just a "shooter". now sure, there are players that play specific missions for varying purposes, but they are the minority. it would be akin to valve developing half life just to cater to the frankly insane speedrunning community. they simply don't do that.

[Raikh]

59 minutes ago, schilds said:

No, I pointed out that your "points" contradict each other and "discarded" them on that basis. Actually, I'm looking to see how they are reconciled. What I am not doing is accepting them both at once, because that would mean I'm adopting your contradiction. Given you simply repeated what you'd already said, and don't see the problem, the contradiction remains (in my eyes, if not yours) and there's no where for the discussion to go.

If you're actually looking how this fits together, then let me roll this out further.

I've elaborated that I hope to enjoy this new endgame content to its full extent, meaning toggling whatever it takes to get the highest rewards available because thats whats being incentivized. Thats essentially what they want players interested in the game mode to play because thats the point the rewards reach up to. Thats the designed scope of the content if you so will. On a matter of principle I'm happy to take on more challenging missions to earn more rewards and I've been waiting for content thats going down that road.

But I'm not happy with how they are going down that road. The reasons for that are manifold and ultimately I just don't see it being a fun experience to play with a semi-randomized loadout and that being sold as an endgame "challenge".

5 hours ago, schilds said:

So if I think a given activity that would usually appeal to me looks to be incredibly unfun to me ... That doesn't mean I'm losing sleep over this or that I'm getting FOMO

What I meant with the latter part here is simply that I'm not losing my mind over the topic, I'm simply giving feedback on the basis of my disappointment with how the challenge of this game mode is being generated. And that I'm not worried about acquiring the loot itself but would much prefer to earn it via taking on the according challenges. This served emphasizing that this isn't a "loot is too difficult to acquire" but "loot is not engaging enough to acquire via the intended gameplay at the highest difficulty".

Can I just skip on the last reward and play this with a loadout of my choice? Yes, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Usually endgame challenges in games are something you aspire to be able to do, the highlight of your regular in-game activities. But semi-randomized loadouts are not that, there is no aspiration or highlight there, not even consistency. Its something that, to me, feels completely amiss for this kind of content as Warframe has always been about your choices on how to approach a problem and how you decide to build your arsenal.

Notably if they decided to not require all toggles to be needed and leave room for players to either pick from the loadout selection or different modifiers that make the mission harder, then these concerns fall away because now its a real choice how to approach the highest relevant difficulty of that content. And especially because they were not 100% set on requiring all of them I'm voicing my gripes with it and I'm emphasizing that my worries are about the fun of the highest difficulty in particular because I personally care about tackling the highest difficulty content.

[Kaiga]

10 hours ago, schilds said:

You guys are really working yourself into a lather over an optional mechanic.

I'm pretty sure people have, and i've said like 5 times now that RNGification of endgame content sets a bad precedent and leads to highlighting the glaring performance gaps in warframe's arsenal for having drastically inconsistent endgame performance but, if you're just going to take all those words as
OOOWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
gIT GoOd

Then i'm not sure what to tell ya mate.

Edited March 1 by Kaiga

[Emwue]

7 hours ago, Raikh said:

I'm wondering how many people even actively play SP Circuit. So far I've gotten the impression that Duviri Incarnons are a lot less popular than is characteristic for the amount of power they offer.

While it's not exactly possible to say without access to DE's data, we can at least put constrains on it - about 5% of players have the achievement for Sacrifice quest on Steam and on consoles it's about 4, iirc; since Sacrifice is a prerequisite for New War which is a prerequisite for unlocking Steel Path, it simply cannot be more than 5% of player populace. Going further, some of those players might be people who played WF before SP was even a thing and some are currently "enroute" to SP, so probably less than 2% even can play SP Circuit.

Now, how many of those 2% that can, actually play it is a complete mystery, but given that a few of the incarnons are close to about 2% usage in the recently released stats for 2023, one can guesstimate it's about 65-75% or so of those that can. The real question though is how many of those players enjoy it, which is impossible to even guesstimate, even for DE actually. ;)

This, in part, is why SP Netracells were patched so fast and why there are no SP Archon hunts - there's simply not enough player population at so close to current Endgame to sustain matchmaking separation for normal and SP.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

7 hours ago, schilds said:

I think DE are aware it will be likely be niche and not for everyone. They poke a little fun at it being "sweaty".

The key point is that it's optional. You are not being forced to do it. You do not need those arcanes asap to "win" the game.

Heck you can easily find complaints that those two legendary arcanes are niche.

If you don't want to collect every frame and weapon then *don't*. It's not necessary.

 

Some people are simply not satisfied unless every bit of content is built for them. Which is *impossible*. Hence they are impossible to satisfy and DE should not bother trying to do so.

Just because something is optional and can be ignored doesnt mean it should be that way.

Playing the entire game at all is entirely optional. You can just do something else. So why change or fix anything?

And "you cant make 100% of people 100% happy 100% of the time so why bother listening to feedback" is an L take.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

2 minutes ago, Emwue said:

While it's not exactly possible to say without access to DE's data, we can at least put constrains on it - about 5% of players have the achievement for Sacrifice quest on Steam and on consoles it's about 4, iirc; since Sacrifice is a prerequisite for New War which is a prerequisite for unlocking Steel Path, it simply cannot be more than 5% of player populace. Going further, some of those players might be people who played WF before SP was even a thing and some are currently "enroute" to SP, so probably less than 2% even can play SP Circuit.

Now, how many of those 2% that can, actually play it is a complete mystery, but given that a few of the incarnons are close to about 2% usage in the recently released stats for 2023, one can guesstimate it's about 65-75% or so of those that can. The real question though is how many of those players enjoy it, which is impossible to even guesstimate, even for DE actually. ;)

This, in part, is why SP Netracells were patched so fast and why there are no SP Archon hunts - there's simply not enough player population at so close to current Endgame to sustain matchmaking separation for normal and SP.

Im skeptical of that math mathing, as I believe that the "players" in that equation include everyone who has downloaded the game ever. 

 

We oughta just consider people who actually play the game, but I see your point.

[schilds]

21 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Just because something is optional and can be ignored doesnt mean it should be that way.

Playing the entire game at all is entirely optional. You can just do something else. So why change or fix anything?

I've already been over this with someone else. This is not my point. Don't put words in my mouth.

The "it's optional" is specifically in context of people claiming "it's forced because I need those two arcanes right now". No it's not because no you don't. That's entirely an issue of your own headspace.

1. Those two arcanes don't gain you access to any particularly novel gameplay.
2. You will get those two arcanes over time through rng at lower tiers of restrictions anyway.
3. At gold tier, from the stream, it appears you will easily be able to take a frame and weapon of your choice.

See. it really is optional.

I'm not saying "it's optional, don't play the game mode". I'm saying "accepting *all* restrictions to your loadout is optional". You are not prevented from playing the game mode. You are not prevented getting the legendary arcanes. Some of you are talking about the restrictions and the guaranteed legendary as if they comprise the entire new game mode. They don't.

Furthermore, none of us knows what the actual in-mission gameplay entails. It could be boring rubbish, for all we know, but it may *not* be.

Quote

And "you cant make 100% of people 100% happy 100% of the time so why bother listening to feedback" is an L take.

Well so glad that's not my take then! Maybe I'll engage with you further when you stop hallucinating.

Edited March 1 by schilds