Nourish isn't the problem

[Waeleto]

Before nerfing nourish can you PLEASE consider that there are 50+ helminth abilities with 15 AT MOST being used ? nourish is used so much because it allows for new builds and for certain warframes to be more comfortable to play it's also the only really versatile helminth ability 

Before nerfing nourish give us other options, look at how many helminth abilities that are USELESS and the game design will OBVIOUSLY push players to use what is better and more versatile over something very niche and bad, you can't be seriously be expecting me to use banish or rest&rage over nourish or eclipse ?

The problem here isn't nourish the problem is how bad other helminth abilities are and after the nerf to nourish/eclipse we'll see roar be next in line then gloom then pillage until the helminth system will be completely irrelevant

[UnstarPrime]

7 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Before nerfing nourish can you PLEASE consider that there are 50+ helminth abilities with 15 AT MOST being used ?

If Nourish wasn't a problem, then there'd be a more equitable usage spread among those 15 abilities.  But it was a clear outlier.

Which isn't to say that there isn't also an issue where certain Helminth abilities were dead on arrival; there is!  But that's a different problem, with a different solution.

We shouldn't pretend like there's only one problem with the Helminth system that will require one solution to fix.  The reality is that it's a complex system and balancing it will require multiple different kinds of adjustments from multiple different angles. 

[Waeleto]

Just now, UnstarPrime said:

If Nourish wasn't a problem, then there'd be a more equitable usage spread among those 15 abilities.  But it was a clear outlier.

Which isn't to say that there isn't also an issue where certain Helminth abilities were dead on arrival; there is!  But that's a different problem, with a different solution.

We shouldn't pretend like there's only one problem with the Helminth system that will require one solution to fix.  The reality is that it's a complex system and balancing it will require multiple different kinds of adjustments from multiple different angles. 

again, how many of these abilities over versatility ? give us better options and we'll use them

[JimothyStevens]

Nerfing helminth abilities is exactly why I quit the game for 3 years in 2020. That and deimos is utter garbage.

[UnstarPrime]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

again, how many of these abilities over versatility ? give us better options and we'll use them

With respect, this doesn't feel intellectually honest.  You already know there are other options that people are widely using.

If you want to argue that none of the other abilities are versatile, I'll hear what you have to say, but hopefully you'll support your claim by explaining why each of these abilities lacks versatility.

[_GoodLuck_]

6 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

The reality is that it's a complex system and balancing it will require multiple different kinds of adjustments from multiple different angles. 

If a system requires tons of adjustments it means that it's badly implemented

[trst]

You refusing to think outside the box and being unable to see value in most of the other Helminth abilities highlights the real problem here in why it needed a nerf.

[UnstarPrime]

Just now, _GoodLuck_ said:

If a system requires tons of adjustments it means that it's badly implemented

With respect, do you have a point?  What should your statement help me realize?

[_GoodLuck_]

Just now, trst said:

You refusing to think outside the box and being unable to see value in most of the other Helminth abilities highlights the real problem here in why it needed a nerf.

Come on, DE still refusing to add innate 1 energy/s regeneration. What do you expect from them?

[trst]

3 minutes ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Come on, DE still refusing to add innate 1 energy/s regeneration. What do you expect from them?

What does this statement have to do with literally anything?

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

With respect, this doesn't feel intellectually honest.  You already know there are other options that people are widely using.

If you want to argue that none of the other abilities are versatile, I'll hear what you have to say, but hopefully you'll support your claim by explaining why each of these abilities lacks versatility.

Gloom: good for health tanking, misses up with enemy spawn 
Roar: great dmg buff, requires very high strength
Eclipse: weapon dmg buff, atm clunky and next update useless
Dispensary: might need equilibrium, you need to be camping to make full use for it
Pillage: good for shieldgating, requires a very HUGE amount of strength to fully strip
Breach surge: good dmg, needs reasonable range and high strength
Resonator: good survivability for warframes who have ZERO survivability
Terrify: armor strip that doesn't work on acolytes and has an enemy limit
Xata's whisper: weapon buff
Tharros strike: defense strip, great but that's it 
Wrathful advance: good for some melee warframes
Pull/Ensnare/Larva: grouping that has been replace by nautilus which is literally an automated grouping
Those are the ones that come to my mind atm as for nourish it offers energy economy allowing us to spam abilities and make better use of zenurik and buffs weapons with viral allowing us to mode for corrosive, it makes exalted warframe a lot more comfortable to play, allows warframes like styanax/frost to spam their 4th ability and stack a ton of overguard, someone like oberon would have never been used without something like nourish due to his terrible energy and let's not get started on platform warframes
SO yeah i'll obviously use the ability that lets me do all these things over an ability that lets me do ONE thing unless i'm in a very specific mission like archon hunt for example 

 

[_GoodLuck_]

2 minutes ago, trst said:

What does this statement have to do with literally anything?

Because energy regeneration is a part of the ability. Many players use it for the reason. Did I miss something?

People are just eager to spam their abilities. After Eximus rework many abilities (and some Warframes) became literally trash and Helminth food (hello, Limbo). So it's not bad to get some energy and viral damage against strong enemies.

[Numerounius]

I just want the full ability stats. We know they have them but refuse to publish them. We can argue about exactly which abilities are the worst or best. And there will always be some that are left out of the conversation.

Like, I imagine rest and rage actually has some situational uses but there are some that have just fallen off the map that can't be talked about since nobody cares about them or are acting as a free helminth slot. Ballistic Battery was being talked about a ton when they did release them shortly after Helminth's release as an example but that was because it stood out in the stats they've shown.

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Because energy regeneration is a part of the ability. Many players use it for the reason. Did I miss something?

People are just eager to spam their abilities. After Eximus rework many abilities (and some Warframes) became literally trash and Helminth food (hello, Limbo). So it's not bad to get some energy and viral damage against strong enemies.

I agree, and many warframes nowaday require their abilities to be spammed, atlas/caliban/dagath/frost/gara/hydroid/khora/kullervo/oberon/qorvex/sevagoth/styanax
Nourish offers an option to play them without STARVING for energy the whole game

[trst]

1 minute ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Because energy regeneration is a part of the ability. Many players use it for the reason. Did I miss something?

People are just eager to spam their abilities. After Eximus rework many abilities (and some Warframes) became literally trash and Helminth food (hello, Limbo). So it's not bad to get some energy and viral damage against strong enemies.

And there's a dozen different ways to generate/manage energy that isn't Nourish. A 1e/s buff would do nothing for those players and isn't remotely necessary.

Also the Eximus rework did nothing. CC abilities have been trash for the majority of the game's life and even then are still entirely usable considering only a tiny fraction of the enemies in a mission are even Eximus units.

Again players refusing to think outside the tiny box they choose to reside in is the problem here.

[Xzorn]

Nourish isn't the problem. Viral status is.

They can reduce it all they want. Free 325% Multiplicative damage boost is still crazy.

They need to try again on these new status effects. They didn't really improve variety and made some impossible to contend with.

[Waeleto]

Just now, Xzorn said:

Nourish isn't the problem. Viral status is.

They can reduce it all they want. Free 325% Multiplicative damage boost is still crazy.

They need to try again on these new status effects. They didn't really improve variety and made some impossible to contend with.

people are worried about the energy part not the viral, energy is the reason most people use nourish 

[CrownOfShadows]

I agree with Pablo it often feels like you just should use nourish no matter what.

Just now, Xzorn said:

Free 325% Multiplicative damage boost is still crazy.

It's only 1 stack of viral, i think that's 100% boost

[Xzorn]

1 minute ago, trst said:

Also the Eximus rework did nothing. CC abilities have been trash for the majority of the game's life and even then are still entirely usable considering only a tiny fraction of the enemies in a mission are even Eximus units.

 

Heh, have you played SP Corpus? There's always 5-6 Nullifiers on the screen. CC was fine for many years. Overguard was just the last nail in the coffin.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

DE needs to nerf ability damage and crowd controlling along with weapon damage across the board. Enemy AI also needs to be challenging, but it's too late for these changes. This is why they're starting fresh with Soulframe. Powercreep and short-sightedness are a couple of the reasons why live service games become unpopular and die. Unfortunately, you have to play through hundreds of hours in this game to discover the fundamental issues it has. I do believe Nourish needed a nerf but I also think we need more reasons to use other subsumable abilities.

Volt/Titania mains will complain about missions taking longer so just double the rewards if the mission takes twice as long.

Edited February 24 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Xzorn]

5 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

It's only 1 stack of viral, i think that's 100% boost

 

Huh? Not with Weapons. My Chroma is running around procing 10 Corrosive 10 Viral and 10 Heat within 1.5s attacking.

Viral Status is way too strong.

[trst]

4 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Heh, have you played SP Corpus? There's always 5-6 Nullifiers on the screen. CC was fine for many years. Overguard was just the last nail in the coffin.

Is this a joke? Nullifiers stopped being an obstacle years ago. Literally just shoot the bubble, run in to kill the Nullifier then recast whatever you need to, use your Operator to kill them/pop the bubble, or equip your Sentinel/Companion with a gun that's good against them. Also actually using your weapons/Companions happens to be the same answer to Overguard.

 

Also CC was the original powercreep and required things like Nullifiers. As any time enemies were hard to kill CC was the free catch all solution to them. It also created the ongoing issue, which justifies Overguard existing, that if DE ever wanted enemies to be more of a threat and/or just harder to kill they needed CC resistance/immunity by necessity. And even though CC has been long dead due to damage powercreep the looming design issue CC presented was still present.

Which all comes together with the Eximus rework in that DE's goal was to make Eximus units a threat again. Which then necessitates CC immunity else any potential threat they posed could have been nullified via CC.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

11 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

DE needs to nerf ability damage and crowd controlling along with weapon damage across the board. Enemy AI also needs to be challenging, but it's too late for these changes. This is why they're starting fresh with Soulframe. Powercreep and short-sightedness are a couple of the reasons why live service games become unpopular and die. Unfortunately, you have to play through hundreds of hours in this game to discover the fundamental issues it has. I do believe Nourish needed a nerf but I also think we need more reasons to use other subsumable abilities.

There are many people with thousands of hours. Maybe we just like the game. If some people need boring nerfed play they can wait for soul frame or play 100 other games with the same boring formula. 

Conformity is a bad thing some times. 

[TARINunit9]

I'm gunna be honest here, I don't know what Nourish actually does. I just press 2 as Grendel every now and then because that's kinda the whole point of the frame, eating things, and assume that it helps out in some way.

So lemme look this up... *Type type type*

Oh, wow, 100% viral damage to all weapons? So it's like Roar but way better? Ok that answers the question:

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

nourish is used so much because it allows for new builds and for certain warframes to be more comfortable to play it's also the only really versatile helminth ability 

Nourish is used because it's an even stronger version of Roar. And keep in mind, Roar was nerfed on Helminth's launch day because they knew it would be the most used Helminth otherwise. Nourish is going straight into the nerf zone until it's no better than Roar

Edited February 24 by TARINunit9

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

Warframe already has a boring formula found in other live service games that couldn't keep a handle on the power creep and pace of the game. People with thousands of hours in this game have already conformed to the easy, no consequences nature of this game. Warframe doesn't respect your time nor does it respect your intelligence nd willingness to overcome obstacles through skill. This is what makes it, overall, a bad game imo even if it is consumer friendly. It's still fun, but many bad games are somewhat fun.

If you don't like nerfs, why aren't you supportive even more buffs? Why don't you want to kill 1,000 enemies a minute with even more AoE? Is there a point when gameplay could be so mindless that it's no longer enjoyable, like 1-button nuking a 1,000 meter tileset? For me, that threshold is a lot lower in that even using Vazarin Protective Sling every 5 seconds without Rolling Guard or Brief Respite/Augur mods at level cap is too brainless. I'm not good at the game. It's just way too simple and unchallenging. When I first learned the concept of shield-gating, I had no trouble with it. The people who do have trouble with it have not learned how to manage their energy economy or simply do not like the playstyle. Oh, use Adaptation and armor with some shield/health mods? Congrats, the game is then even more brainless.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I don't enjoy the game at all anymore and it's time to move on. I've played for less than a year and I'm at this point, but I think it's natural reaction. I don't understand how people don't get bored with playing this game for thousands of hours while also sticking with it for 10 years. It's probably because of the powercreep and the dopamine that comes with it along with the variety in dressing up their frames. I wouldn't mind if this game shone brightly for 4 years and then died. Why is that such a bad thing?  But now, it's like a black hole, trying to drag in any new player while compressing the veterans at the core into a density so high that their concerns could never see the light of day.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There are many people with thousands of hours. Maybe we just like the game. If some people need boring nerfed play they can wait for soul frame or play 100 other games with the same boring formula. 

Conformity is a bad thing some times. 

 

Edited February 24 by Ghastly-Ghoul