Incarnon Adapters are what Rivens were supposed to be

[K4RN4]

Riven mods were originally introduced to breath new life into old unpopular weapons. And it didn't do that. Sure, some weapons greatly benefited from Rivens, but most didn't. The stug is still the stug. DE totally missed the mark.

Then they introduced Incarnon Adapters. To make old weapons relevant again. And that actually worked. And I don't think that's because of the incarnon forms.

So what's the difference: Additive Bonuses to Base Values. A weapon with low stats will be bad even with a riven because multiplying low numbers will still not yield big numbers. A weapon with 5%CC and 5%SC will never be good. That's why the only way to bring old weapons back to relevancy is changing the Base Values.

Therefore my proposition would be to change most riven stats to be additive base stat changes. Riven disposition would need to be adjusted in what multiplier it gives, but could remain mostly the same. A really popular weapon could get like 5% CC or SC, while a really unpopular one could maybe get up to 25% or maybe 20% would be enough. Same for Damage stats on rivens, even elemental ones, making them work like base damage would probably bring a lot of diversity.

Giving a status weapon a combined element as additional base damage might be a bit powerful, but it would enable new builds and give new attractive stat combos for rivens. If tuned right more stat combos on rivens could be viable.

[Eda.Mone]

What are you on?

It's not because of the incarnon form??

I can tell you now, I would not use burston if it wasn't for the incarnon form.
Sure, the extra stats are nice; but the incarnon itself carries the weapon to being usable.

(But lets go ahead and ignore all the incarnon that no one uses.. )

Your idea in general just kinda.. sucks, tbh.

I think the better idea for rivens is just make it so you can select 1 stat at max roll after a certain amount of rolls. (1-200 per, not sure the exact amount).
Which would also help kill the riven mafia in general / drive the prices down.

Anyway, no. This idea just kinda sounds stinky to me. (they can't change rivens this way, regardless. Too many people who have spent thousands of plat would be upset losing their god roll riven, etc.)

Edited March 26 by Ryker

[quxier]

2 hours ago, K4RN4 said:

Therefore my proposition would be to change most riven stats to be additive base stat changes. Riven disposition would need to be adjusted in what multiplier it gives, but could remain mostly the same. A really popular weapon could get like 5% CC or SC, while a really unpopular one could maybe get up to 25% or maybe 20% would be enough. Same for Damage stats on rivens, even elemental ones, making them work like base damage would probably bring a lot of diversity.

I think disposition is problem. 5% chance is not huge. Some weapons with low disposition are not great. I have Grimoire riven with (more or less):

Quote

100% damage

50% status chance

50% heat

-magazine capacite

It has very low riven dispo. Negative capacity "saves it a little". It costs 18 where 60/60 mod costs 7.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

To to stugs part, its weapon design flaw not rivens fault. But give us an arcane to have sc to 45 - 50% and you have ok status wep , since dmg output for stug is good enough. Besides stug is an aoe wep, so it got ''nerfed'' :D Stug can kill in sp easely, but why spend 5 seconds if there a weps doing that in 0.2  . And even then my stug runs corrosive heat.

Make any incarnon retain original weapons form, w/o pseudo aoe on incarnon. And people wont use them as much. Since single target dmg is not whats popular, its aoe ,horde killing.

As for build diversity. It aint gonna change. Is it build difference if you run exact mods and melee influence on different melees, and just see which kills fastest? OR glaive builds be copy paste and insert glaive name here. Or slash build/heavy attack build and insert melee name here.

Imagine we had 1 prime/galvanize elemental fusion, with magnetic, gas, corrosive , viral, blast,radiation on it for each weapon category(primary/secondary/melee).  Everyone would run it add in free element and replace mod space with bane mod so can maximize dmg. Builds be same, just weapon picks differ either personal preference or meta.

But for rivens yea i would only need riven with 1900% crit chance on stug to get it to 100% cc, and like 900% sc on radial explosion for it to be 100% sc. Stats in riven be bit too much.

After all rivens were ment to boost weapon capabilities, which it it does, sadly there are many weapons doing great w/o rivens compared to those with rivens. But every weapon is high lvl enemy capable, difference is killing speed. 

 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

I don't think both systems can coexist if they do give base multiplier increases. However Incarnon Adapters can be added to every weapon, eventually, much like what Prime variants tried to do.

il y a une heure, Ryker a dit :

What are you on?

It's not because of the incarnon form??

I can tell you now, I would not use burston if it wasn't for the incarnon form.
Sure, the extra stats are nice; but the incarnon itself carries the weapon to being usable.

Lol what a bozo take. The burston's incarnon form is completely overkill, the prime variant (incarnonless) is more than usable if you actually know how to mod a gun, usually killing whatever target in one button press if stacked. All the burston offers in its incarnon form is a bottomless clip and extra crit chance. Nothing more.

il y a 3 minutes, AntifreezeUnder0 a dit :

people wont use them as much. Since single target dmg is not whats popular, its aoe ,horde killing.

This guy gets it. There's a good reason you always see a revenant prime player with a very meta AoE gun/melee : Not dying (mesmer skin) + nuking (aoe weapon). That's what the meta has become.

At the end of the day, gimmicky weapons, even when buffed, stay gimmicky weapons. Miter Incarnon is insanely strong (friendly reminder the projectiles home onto enemies, bounce off them multiple times and do wide enough radial attacks, all at once), but basically no one runs it. And the whole reason for that is because you charge it often due to a low charge count and it's kinda eh to charge with the projectile it fires at base. Even if you gave the twin grakatas an incarnon form that summoned extra grakatas out of the void, so as to wield 6 at once (hexakata), you'd still be firing grakatas. A basic old assault rifle. Would it be fun? Yeah probably. Would it be meta defining? Not if it remains a single target weapon (as it should).

 

However, just because there is a most efficient tactic available doesn't mean you have no reason to bother buffing the underdog. Broken stuff tends to end up being nerfed in the long run, and if not, people just get bored of it.

[PublikDomain]

Base stats on Rivens could help, but the value of stats are weapon-dependent. For example the base Nukor and Twin Vipers both have a 1.45x Disposition. Should they get the same base Crit Chance increase? The Nukor's 3% Crit Chance is so low specifically because of its 4x Crit Damage. If it gets the same amount the Twin Vipers need to be "good" then it'll make the Nukor incredible. Likewise do weapons with a low per-hit damage but a high hit rate get the same base damage increases as slower firing weapons? Incarnons don't have this problem because the base stat increases are all hand-picked and curated, whereas Rivens are completely random and allow for anything. Relying on Rivens also continues DE's failed trend of trying to balance via RNG. It doesn't prevent imbalanced or broken things from happening, it just makes them rare and unpredictable which in turn only makes balancing harder. Which is, funny enough, another thing Incarnons get right: you can pick exactly the stat you want out of the pool and change it whenever you want for free. There's no RNG so people can actually use them for what they're intended without having to hope that they get lucky.

For base stats increases to work on Rivens without blowing everything up, each additive stat would probably need a Disposition. That or some other clever way to manage the weird outliers like the base Nukor. We'd also want to keep percentage stats in the pool, not only to preserve existing rolls but also for that added variety. And then we'd (continue to) need more agency over our Riven stats to let us actually address what we know we need to address for Rivens.

1 hour ago, Ryker said:

It's not because of the incarnon form??

I can tell you now, I would not use burston if it wasn't for the incarnon form.

Yes?

I can tell you, I do not use the Gorgon's Incarnon form. The base stats, however? Yummy. -2s base reload is huge.

[Eda.Mone]

On 2024-03-25 at 9:43 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I don't think both systems can coexist if they do give base multiplier increases. However Incarnon Adapters can be added to every weapon, eventually, much like what Prime variants tried to do.

Lol what a bozo take. The burston's incarnon form is completely overkill, the prime variant (incarnonless) is more than usable if you actually know how to mod a gun, usually killing whatever target in one button press if stacked. All the burston offers in its incarnon form is a bottomless clip and extra crit chance. Nothing more.

This guy gets it. There's a good reason you always see a revenant prime player with a very meta AoE gun/melee : Not dying (mesmer skin) + nuking (aoe weapon). That's what the meta has become.

At the end of the day, gimmicky weapons, even when buffed, stay gimmicky weapons. Miter Incarnon is insanely strong (friendly reminder the projectiles home onto enemies, bounce off them multiple times and do wide enough radial attacks, all at once), but basically no one runs it. And the whole reason for that is because you charge it often due to a low charge count and it's kinda eh to charge with the projectile it fires at base. Even if you gave the twin grakatas an incarnon form that summoned extra grakatas out of the void, so as to wield 6 at once (hexakata), you'd still be firing grakatas. A basic old assault rifle. Would it be fun? Yeah probably. Would it be meta defining? Not if it remains a single target weapon (as it should).

 

However, just because there is a most efficient tactic available doesn't mean you have no reason to bother buffing the underdog. Broken stuff tends to end up being nerfed in the long run, and if not, people just get bored of it.

Yeah, man. for sure. I can tell you now for 99.9% of the incarnons I would not use them without their incarnon form. - Would not use any of the base ones without it.

Wouldn't use strun without it, even if I like strun.

Yes, burston is usable without it, but why would I?
Lol.

 

On 2024-03-25 at 9:47 PM, PublikDomain said:

Base stats on Rivens could help, but the value of stats are weapon-dependent. For example the base Nukor and Twin Vipers both have a 1.45x Disposition. Should they get the same base Crit Chance increase? The Nukor's 3% Crit Chance is so low specifically because of its 4x Crit Damage. If it gets the same amount the Twin Vipers need to be "good" then it'll make the Nukor incredible. Likewise do weapons with a low per-hit damage but a high hit rate get the same base damage increases as slower firing weapons? Incarnons don't have this problem because the base stat increases are all hand-picked and curated, whereas Rivens are completely random and allow for anything. Relying on Rivens also continues DE's failed trend of trying to balance via RNG. It doesn't prevent imbalanced or broken things from happening, it just makes them rare and unpredictable which in turn only makes balancing harder. Which is, funny enough, another thing Incarnons get right: you can pick exactly the stat you want out of the pool and change it whenever you want for free. There's no RNG so people can actually use them for what they're intended without having to hope that they get lucky.

For base stats increases to work on Rivens without blowing everything up, each additive stat would probably need a Disposition. That or some other clever way to manage the weird outliers like the base Nukor. We'd also want to keep percentage stats in the pool, not only to preserve existing rolls but also for that added variety. And then we'd (continue to) need more agency over our Riven stats to let us actually address what we know we need to address for Rivens.

Yes?

I can tell you, I do not use the Gorgon's Incarnon form. The base stats, however? Yummy. -2s base reload is huge.

I have not seen a single person in my life use gorgon, so you are one of the people who likes weird weapons. It happens. Each weapon has a cult following. Rakta dark dagger is a great example of that.

[ShortCat]

Am 25.3.2024 um 23:28 schrieb K4RN4:

Riven mods were originally introduced to breath new life into old unpopular weapons.

Rivens were not supposed to do this on release, thus they could not achieve said goal.
Rivens were designed as a loot box to encourage player trades after "Specters of the Rails" update nuked prime gear prices. Rivens' secondary design goal was to introduce a neverending chase for a perfect carrot.

The "breath new life into older weapons" narrative was developed days after release and added even later after Riven release day in form of Riven disposition, due to a massive player backlash.

[Drachnyn]

Am 27.3.2024 um 17:14 schrieb ShortCat:

Rivens were not supposed to do this on release, thus they could not achieve said goal.
Rivens were designed as a loot box to encourage player trades after "Specters of the Rails" update nuked prime gear prices. Rivens' secondary design goal was to introduce a neverending chase for a perfect carrot.

The "breath new life into older weapons" narrative was developed days after release and added even later after Riven release day in form of Riven disposition, due to a massive player backlash.

In addition to that: keeping the prices of chase rivens sky high has directly lead to several game adjustments like the steel essence rework. People buy plat to spend rivens therefore DE wants to keep prices high.

[Trollocaustic]

Here's an hot take: let old weapons fall to the wayside. Why does everything need to be late game viable? I, for one, believe its okay to have progression of power scaling and hard to earn weapons that are profoundly more powerful than Mk-1 Bratins awarded for just starting a new account.

[(PSN)rexis12]

7 minutes ago, Trollocaustic said:

Here's an hot take: let old weapons fall to the wayside. Why does everything need to be late game viable? I, for one, believe its okay to have progression of power scaling and hard to earn weapons that are profoundly more powerful than Mk-1 Bratins awarded for just starting a new account.

Duviri Circuit and the Upcoming Deep Archemedean would disagree with the concept of letting older weapons fall to the wayside. 

[Vazumongr]

On 2024-03-25 at 6:28 PM, K4RN4 said:

To make old weapons relevant again.

FWIW, there is a HUGE difference between making old weapons (E.g., Soma Prime, Sancti Magistar, Vasto Prime) relevant again and making easy-to-obtain, early game weapons (Stug, Dual Heat Swords, Hind) top tier. First case are weapons that use to be hold their own in end-game content, then got power-crept out of it. The second case are weapons that were never meant to be used for end game content. If the weapons you get in the early-game are viable at SP, then what reason would there be for new players to get newer weapons?