The future of crowd control?

[VENDOMINUS]

Soo, I just saw a video and I thought it'd be a good topic to discuss.

 

I personally think that there is merit in what he's saying. CC is rarely important anymore, and it may need some buffs.

 

1.What do you guys think. Should DE make changes that mitigate the DPS meta?

2.Do you think too much DPS may break the game? (I mean, some frames can throw out so much CC that if some mobs weren't immune to it. Nothing would move ever.)

3.What changes would you make to Loki? The the things he suggested make sense?

4.Is it wrong for me to make this thread in the first place? (I'm not really sure)

Edited March 26 by VENDOMINUS

[Harutomata]

42 minutes ago, VENDOMINUS said:

1.What do you guys think. Should DE make changes that mitigate the DPS meta?

I liked playing Chaos Nyx before Arbitration Drone rework and Overguard. (Though Chaos basically should be considered bugged because it's the only threat based CC in the game that doesn't work on Overguard, other ones being Loki's Decoy, Octavia's Mallet, Titania's razorflies.)
In order for CC to be relevant, player survivability would need to be reworked so that CC wouldn't be a downgrade, but sidegrade means of survivability.
Coincidentally this is the exact same issue why HP healing frames are becoming outdated. Shield gate is there now, and many warframes die after certain levels from any instance of damage to health. Maybe it'd be time for an armor rework? I mean player armor can get like 91% DR at most, but enemies can get like 99.9% because they use different formulas.
I think it'd be nice if CC and healing roles were relevant again.
"DPS everything out" works, but it lacks variety and creativity.

[KitMeHarder]

4 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

1.What do you guys think. Should DE make changes that mitigate the DPS meta?

2.Do you think too much DPS may break the game? (I mean, some frames can throw out so much CC that if some mobs weren't immune to it. Nothing would move ever.)

3.What changes would you make to Loki? The the things he suggested make sense?

4.Is it wrong for me to make this thread in the first place? (I'm not really sure)

1. Non-helminth 4th abilities should still be able to CC overguarded enemies. This gives frames primarily designed for CC their role back. (It's not perfect, but IMO it's pretty dang good for how simple of a rule it is).
2. No, not really. And the levels of DPS that would cause this aren't been even close to being implemented in this game. There's a lot of boxes a DPS source would need to check off to achieve this, including being truly "braindead", not just the buzzword the community likes to throw around. (Only thing that got around this level was the old/brief Cataclysm nuking, though it was before my time so IDK if it actually scales as well as old YT videos say.)
3. I'd just make him an extremely good version on himself. I posted something like this years ago in a random thread, so I'll try to recall some details. (This is just a very quick "revisit" without augments.)
   1. Decoy is now invincible, and every enemy it shoots is "charmed" like Octavia's 2. 
   2. NEW/OPTIONAL: While active, enemies are always prone to melee's +700% stealth damage. (Can be changed to disarmed/melee enemies only.)
   3. No longer needs a target. Enemies and non-player allies within a set radius are teleported with him. Player allies in radius are given a brief prompt to opt-in. (Distance can also scale with duration instead.)
   4. The area covered now scales off of duration, like Nova's 4. But instead it quickly expands and then lingers a bit at max range.
      • I'd also change Disarms to take away enemy guns without them playing the animation of pulling out their melee.
   • Passive now also causes all abilities cast to refresh the duration of his Invisibility.
4. Not at all. Discussion is great, even if it's something I disagree with. The only threads I personally dislike are when someone firmly tries to change/appropriate WF into a game it isn't in the slightest.

Edited March 27 by KitMeHarder

[KitMeHarder]

11 minutes ago, Harutomata said:

I think it'd be nice if CC and healing roles were relevant again.
"DPS everything out" works, but it lacks variety and creativity.

• CC is very meta. Look at how many people hate on and decry Gloom. What's not meta is CC being the only thing a frame can do.
• And EHP tanking is very relevant and reliable anywhere DE encourages players to actually play. Again, look at the popularity of frames like Wisp.
• A DPS centric game will always be more fun and more varied than any other option. There are countless ways to mass kill enemies and they all tend to be pretty active. Where as most CCing feels one and the same. You stand around and do nothing, pressing one button every 2 minutes while you wait for the mode to be over. IDK if you're ever watched the Law of Retribution raid runs, but it's basically like that.
  • It's nice to have options for people that like the playstyle, but CC should only be there to supplement DPS. It shouldn't ever be the star of the show IMO.

[Rathalio]

Honestly, it really depends how and where you play the game. In low-mid level content DPS become the easiest answers to anything since the power creep went by. DPS warframes become able to instantly get rid of anything threat in most of regular missions in game. And in the video he is complaining about newest game modes not being welcoming for CC. And he forgot to mention Mirror defenses. Because in this mission you really only care about good CC at the end of the day and Nova for example is probably the most powerful Warframe to play here. Also Disruption are way more comfortable with CC, since you really only need to kill a few select enemies and so with your weapons. Also grabbing enemies with CCs like vortex, or larva is good more efficient to speed up Netracells rather than killing enemies outside of the range.

Although if you are playing high level endurance runs in steel path, long circuit runs etc CC & support Warframes have the most value. Because anyways at this point you have your DPS through good weapon builds and synergies. And the help of CC, protection and buffs that Warframes can bring, this help is most welcome and comfortable in that context. Also DPS Warframes usually have no good enough survivability tools for when any hit can one shot you. And you often also need to protect objectives that are getting shredded in seconds without CC, and DPS is never going to be better at this than CC.

PS : I know the point about Overguard and Eximus units sometimes completely denying CC. But think about it for a second, if they were not here, it would be like when the people considered CC to be "king". And it was "king" because it required no effort like today the DPS strategy is the lowest effort strategy. Without Overguard, you can basically sit and annihilate any threat by using CC. Which is as boring if not more than a DPS only strategy. And honestly would kill endurance run flavour, challenge and reason to play harder content like this.

[0_The_F00l]

A simpler way would be to treat CC immune enemies in a specific way , 

Lets take the inaros scarab swarm as a reference , you loose some scarab swarm Armor each time you nullify a status effect.

Something similar can be done for overguard , every time they resist a CC effect they loose a % of their overguard. Duration based effects would slowly drain the overguard at a steady rate.

 

 

[VENDOMINUS]

A point that was raised, was changing some mechanics to require CC instead of pure damage to solve. For example needing to CC an overguarded enemy before being able to break the overguard instead of outright deleting it with damage from across the map, Nullifier, being affected by CC, but the bubbles not being shrunk by damage abilities. While I don't like the suggestions, I have to admit that would make fighting them harder and more interesting. Right now as long as you can dish out enough damage, you don't really care for anything else. Only buffing CC to affect things that it currently doesn't wouldn't mitigate the DPS meta at all.

A rework of some core mechanics will not come anytime soon, but it's not bad to bring it to the table at least. It may help devs with designing future mechanics to make things more interesting.

[MutoManiac]

With a few exceptions, CC shouldn’t exist on normal star chart. The density of enemies are so low that you fall asleep playing the game. In SP, it’s appreciated.

Edited March 27 by MutoManiac

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

I personally think that there is merit in what he's saying. CC is rarely important anymore, and it may need some buffs.

 

1.What do you guys think. Should DE make changes that mitigate the DPS meta?

2.Do you think too much DPS may break the game? (I mean, some frames can throw out so much CC that if some mobs weren't immune to it. Nothing would move ever.)

3.What changes would you make to Loki? The the things he suggested make sense?

4.Is it wrong for me to make this thread in the first place? (I'm not really sure)

I wont watch the video. I still dont know why people lazy post and dump a video without bringing up the highlights they wanna discuss from the video. No I wont watch a video I'm not interested in watching so the creator gets an extra view. Especially not when there arent even time stamp links to the key points the poster of the thread wants to bring up.

CC is already way too powerful, there is no way to buff something that effectively already shuts down a whole map of enemies in most cases. What they need to do is add incentives to use other DPS than AoE, that isnt solved by adding more power to CC. Both AoE damage and CC needs content made that counters them. I assume that the video brings up Eximus as a reason to CC being dead. Which is really just a horrible misconception, since if there is 1 eximus among 20 enemies, 19 enemies are still open for CC as you waste the Eximus incase you need to rely on CC to get the killing done. Even brief CC like Piercing Roar and Nourish pulses are golden still, since they remove alot of incoming fire while also opening up for finishers etc. Vortex effects are also still very popular good.

Loki doesnt need any particular changes. He is already a strong frame, people just need to realize that certain frames are better suited for specific things compared to others. Loki is for instance a very solid defense and melee frames. You cant get CC much stronger than a 50m disarm that doesnt interrupt game flow. He also has access to stealth, and the one lacking thing in his kit is getting improved with the upcoming patch today. And with those things along with the recent buffs through arcanes that melee recieved, he is in a very solid spot as a defender/stealth frame able to do practically any content well.

6 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

A point that was raised, was changing some mechanics to require CC instead of pure damage to solve. For example needing to CC an overguarded enemy before being able to break the overguard instead of outright deleting it with damage from across the map, Nullifier, being affected by CC, but the bubbles not being shrunk by damage abilities. While I don't like the suggestions, I have to admit that would make fighting them harder and more interesting. Right now as long as you can dish out enough damage, you don't really care for anything else. Only buffing CC to affect things that it currently doesn't wouldn't mitigate the DPS meta at all.

A rework of some core mechanics will not come anytime soon, but it's not bad to bring it to the table at least. It may help devs with designing future mechanics to make things more interesting.

But how would that work? Not all frames have access to CC that would suffice to CC in order to then remove OG. And how would shutting something down make it harder to kill? You'd just be back at no-brain CC and taking your merry time killing things when they cant do anything in return.

What the game needs are more threatening targets that you cannot CC or kill with AoE. Giving you situations where you might be better of CCing the trash as you focus the main target or similar. We need lots of different types of threatening targets that push us to use different and specific methods as the mission progresses. CC immune, skill immune, AoE immune, weakpoints, damage type immunites, unmitigatable CC (ignores PSF etc) and whatever else they can come up with.

The only thing they should avoid are things that some frames just cant handle, like a need to CC something before killing it or requiring abilities to kill something, since not every frame has access to those things as baseline.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

14 hours ago, Harutomata said:

it'd be nice if CC and healing roles were relevant again

*Every streamer who makes endurance runs and promotes faction mods screeches in pain*

Actually. Yes.

We have so many healer frames but all you need is a molt reconstruct (and in a healer main in all games i play) that at this point when i see a new frame with a healing ability im like; found the subsume over slot in most cases unless it offers something extra.

 

But yea dps needs a nerf in general. The powercreep isnt creep anymore its a full blown invasion.

I mean without trying we can overkill everything in the game.

[VENDOMINUS]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I wont watch the video. I still dont know why people lazy post and dump a video without bringing up the highlights they wanna discuss from the video. No I wont watch a video I'm not interested in watching so the creator gets an extra view. Especially not when there arent even time stamp links to the key points the poster of the thread wants to bring up.

Oh no! Giving 0 cents to a creator while costing you about 0 cent of electricity is a price too high to pay. Still your time may be worth something, but I'm pretty sure you'll spend a lot more of it if you start arguing about not watching it. It's hard to argues about something if you only guess what it is based on common biases.

I'll admit that I have negative real life charisma and trying to abridge the video wouldn't have the same effect.

It's not a point to make cc make enemies just stand in place, but have an effect that's beneficial, instead of strictly doing nothing.

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What the game needs are more threatening targets that you cannot CC or kill with AoE. Giving you situations where you might be better of CCing the trash as you focus the main target or similar. We need lots of different types of threatening targets that push us to use different and specific methods as the mission progresses. CC immune, skill immune, AoE immune, weakpoints, damage type immunites, unmitigatable CC (ignores PSF etc) and whatever else they can come up with.

As a person who does endurance with different frames, I can vouch that if you can't kill something with some damage, you can kill it with a lot of damage. Regularly nuking the map is not uncommon even at level cap. There each pellet  can oneshot you. What's more threatening than that? The fact that the answer to all problems is "hit them with enough damage to instantly kill them" is where the issues of a stale dps meta emerges.

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The only thing they should avoid are things that some frames just cant handle, like a need to CC something before killing it or requiring abilities to kill something, since not every frame has access to those things as baseline.

As far as I know, every frame has access to a melee, secondary and primary, which are almost always a source of CC.

 

Like I said. I think the video rises some good questions, on topics that are rarely discussed, like the presumption from the dev's that the only thing Loki can turned into  to be viable is a dps. 

I personally hate the new mumur warden that are immune to most things other than guns. On the other hand I find myself actually using my archgun on them when I'm running a frame that doesn't bring a good ranged weapon with it. They also serve as a head that will stay there until you hit it for incarnons.

It's hard to say if people would like more or less such enemies.

2 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

I mean without trying we can overkill everything in the game.

As someone who deals with levelcap buy nuking the map, I do agree.

[SneakyErvin]

12 minutes ago, VENDOMINUS said:

Oh no! Giving 0 cents to a creator while costing you about 0 cent of electricity is a price too high to pay. Still your time may be worth something, but I'm pretty sure you'll spend a lot more of it if you start arguing about not watching it. It's hard to argues about something if you only guess what it is based on common biases.

I'll admit that I have negative real life charisma and trying to abridge the video wouldn't have the same effect.

It's not a point to make cc make enemies just stand in place, but have an effect that's beneficial, instead of strictly doing nothing.

The time is imply wasted on watching a whole video to get the specific points when it would take 30 seconds to read a recap in the thread that wants to discuss it. That is the main point and why I dislike videos just dumped in a thread. I have no issue with people making threads about a video discussing something, but please bring up bullet points if you do since not everyone is interested to watch a full video to catch the specific points in question. Or atleast make links to the specific time stamps you wanna discuss.

But CC already does alot, it just doesnt do anything versus a few special units. Just as how certain damage skills wont do something about those same special units. There is a time and place for everything and so far CC is in a strong spot aslong as people dont expect it to be a be-all-end-all thing. I mean, the one lacking CC frame is really Limbo, because he is designed around on relying on his rift while Eximus ignore it along with his CC. Which more says that Lamebo should get a rework that improves him and makes him more friendly around allies aswell. So heh win-win in that case.

18 minutes ago, VENDOMINUS said:

As a person who does endurance with different frames, I can vouch that if you can't kill something with some damage, you can kill it with a lot of damage. Regularly nuking the map is not uncommon even at level cap. There each pellet  can oneshot you. What's more threatening than that? The fact that the answer to all problems is "hit them with enough damage to instantly kill them" is where the issues of a stale dps meta emerges.

For me one shots arent threatening, they end up being dull since there is no real room for engaging gameplay, mistakes or other similar things. And it ends up with only one defensive approach being viable the further you wanna push. This has always been an issue, hence why enemy damage has been reworked in different ways, but it still ends up at the bullet-hell outcome. Even one of the changes to reduce enemy damage kinda resulted in a double edged sword, since while their accuracy got reduced it also led to more RNG as you try to avoid bullets. Since the thing that initially would hit you, the thing you actively tried to avoid, might have actually missed that spot and instead gone in the direction you just moved, ending up hitting you.

DE should probably cap enemy damage at some point and make levels scale their eHP only, since the more an enemy can take, the more uptime on damage towards you it has, resulting in eHP scaling effectively also scaling potential damage output of an enemy. This together with a rebalance of how much damage we can output could lead to more engaging gameplay options for future development. It would also allow players more options for defense since they'd know how much output an enemy would have at most. Something that levels could add to enemies would be more types of attacks, more active eximus units the higher the map level gets and so on. And instead of adding straight up damage the enemies could recieve a chance to spawn with elements on their weapons and the chance to inflict statuses. Making this different overtime and harder as we progress, since we might suddenly run into toxin damage or magnetic etc.

27 minutes ago, VENDOMINUS said:

As far as I know, every frame has access to a melee, secondary and primary, which are almost always a source of CC.

 

Like I said. I think the video rises some good questions, on topics that are rarely discussed, like the presumption from the dev's that the only thing Loki can turned into  to be viable is a dps. 

I personally hate the new mumur warden that are immune to most things other than guns. On the other hand I find myself actually using my archgun on them when I'm running a frame that doesn't bring a good ranged weapon with it. They also serve as a head that will stay there until you hit it for incarnons.

It's hard to say if people would like more or less such enemies.

Well yeah, but it also kinda removes the whole point, since CC is practically guaranteed passively at that point. I'm more talking about using specific CC skills to open up an enemy to something, so you actually need to consider using the skill and so on at the right moment. I mean I cant think of a weapon I use currently that doesnt instantly inflict some form of CC the moment I start dealing damage.

For Loki it's more that there isnt much to do with him except turn him into another dps frame, because he already has access to strong defense in his invisibility and crazy CC with disarm. The thing they can avoid though is making him a nuke, which is more what Pablo implied the only step was. Though turning him into a dps frame wouldnt be bad and I wouldnt mind it aslong as it isnt just another AoE dps frame. He would for instance be a great candidate for another melee frame, since in the lore of the god Loki he is a master swordsman as skilled as Heimdal. So it would be possible to give him some form of thematic ability in that sense, either a melee buff or some melee type ability instead of switch teleport that could get merged with Decoy. This would also pair well with his stealth without really changing his identity or current strengths. 

Dont forget you can just flail in the general direction of a warden with your melee to kill it, if you run one with proper reach. Some weapon and stance combos get a bit wonky but most of them work to achieve it.

I would enjoy more, but I'd prefer ground based units since I find the Warden too easy too pick off due to it floating above everyone. An enemy hidden among enemies with say shoulder/chest weakspots to kill would add more since you'd need to find it in the crowd. But I also think it's something they should consider for future content or a seperate version of current content similar to steel path, so people get eased into such things and wont have them forced on what they currently enjoy. Since it is mostly the future content we need more engagement in that can counter our insane power. The old is the old and we should be allowed to faceroll it since we've already spent hundreds aswell as thousands of hours doing it over and over and over and then over a bit more.

 

 

[UnstarPrime]

18 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

4.Is it wrong for me to make this thread in the first place? (I'm not really sure)

Respectfully, expecting your fellow Tenno to watch a full YouTube video is going to meaningfully reduce the quality and quantity of discussion in your thread.  Looking at the questions you asked without that context, it's not entirely clear what you're talking about.

I would recommend summarizing the ideas that resonated with you from the video so that everyone can be on the same page, which will enable everyone to join in regardless of whether they've watched the video.

[ominumi]

This has already been discuss before. Years ago even. Overguard is the answer to Khora's lockdown when Steel Path was launched. 

Scarlet Spear has already showcase how bad it is for warframe's CC abilities. Namely Limbo.

EVERY frame should be able to deal damage. Reason why most counter play from player is to just hit it until it dies. Would be a shame if the counter play is to CC an enemy unit when random frame #29 doesn't have any type of disable at all.