i feel like dante is too good ?

[MouthfulOJoules]

17 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Ok, here we go again:

Khora - yes, needs to be nerfed... already has been, but still could need one. If you want to argue pro Khora: She needs a lot of setup to get her to OP status....
Mesa - does not proc slash, so she is not infintely scalable, everything is killed ultrafast from any frame till level 100... use Mesa in lvl 200 and lets us see how she clears a room without anyone being able to get a kill
new Nezha - needs a nerf and will get one, hopefully
vauban - ??? I dont play him much, but how can he clear a room before anyone is able to get in a kill?
Saryn - hogs a lot of damage, but she kills slowly so no, don't use her name when talking about Dante, please
Nova - ???? I don't know man, how can she clear a room so that noone gets a kill
limbo - ???????????????????? How can he clear a room so that noone gets a kill?
Octavia - ??????? did you lose track about what we are talking about here? As a reminder: Octavia can clear a room before anyone gets a kill?????

Ok, so, if the measuring stick is "kill before anyone else gets the chance":
Octavia - most used builds i stand corrected, there most definitely is a way to make it work though.
Khora - I disagree, the what... 4 nerfs she's received by now are enough.
Mesa - apparently you haven't run with redcrit fullstrip viral heat mesa builds in your squad comp. Also mesa can proc slash, but you seem to ignore the fact that heat is an infinitely stacking DOT too.
Vauban - one of the variants has been stated before in the thread. So many ways to make the trainboy wonderful, the recent nourish nerf does hurt a little bit though.
Saryn - kill speed depends on the setup, if you include loadout options, you may get people requesting that you stop killing enemies so early and far, because the drops are too spread out.
Also having read more of the discussion, for some strange reason, I don't see you decrying Gauss, who can do the same or better with little more investment than dante.
Nova - one of the variants has been stated before in the thread, same as with vauban, there are others.
Limbo - breach surge limbo can dominate the kills while passively making weapon damage useless against everything in the vicinity. and if you're good at, you know, playing the frame, you don't need your 4 to do so.
Volt - You were saying something about volt nuking being viable only on base nodes before, and that's where you are mistaken, volt can be built for SP nuking and with at least 1 build his main rotation is just 2 buttons after you stack molt aug.


As was said before ITT, it would be a lot better if people actually produced evidence that supports their claims.

In general I'd just like to say that this is the result of what @ABlindGuyPlays has stated, the focus of current WF mechanics around DPS, nuking and OG.

17 hours ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

Week One Dante 'needs' a nerf. Yet Wisp, Revenant, Harrow, Saryn, Octavia....

'Measured and thoughtful-'
Week One knee jerk reaction. Also Styanax says hi. I've seen your 'measured and rational' and am calling you a bald faced liar in front of everyone (by you i mean a collective 'you' DE not any one person.)

...

The core problem with the place is the problem Warframe has: Either yo ubuild towards the meta or you aren't considered worth anyone's time. Either you are top tier or you are trash. Either you are a 36+ point build or yo uare Godstomped into oblivion because everyone wants the biggest gun.

More t othe point: Warframe has allowed itself to get into a position where you either HAVE to do Big D Damage or you are considered useless, because Death is the best CC and if nobody is shooting at you then there is no need for healing. 

Then you get int othe overguard situation. On the face of it 'HAHAA I am immortal!' but that number is either, in content where overguard is useful, either a 1 or a 0. Overguard as of right now does not get the same 'help' health does from armor. So the number looks HYUUUUUUGE but may as well be on/off. 

There are all manner of frames that are similar levels of 'dominating the field' but there aren't instant immediate calls to drag them down. There isn't this 'oh no within the first week we have decided to turn this thing into trash.' 

And without a deep clean overhaul that makes other playstyles worht using. you are going to be stuck with this all or nothing 'it either map wipes or it is garbage' mindset. 

Slightly disagree on the "build towards the meta". You can still create meta-level builds that are not meta, but it's often at least 1 step away from following a build shared by a creator 1:1, which is already not a casual thing to do, by definition.

Also would like to add, that balance is relative. A good alternative to asking for nerfs is requesting content that is difficult enough to make those builds necessary for more than speedrunning defense nodes or doing a survival without loot frames and LS and rewarding enough so that people using those builds will naturally gravitate towards it.

[_Eclips3_]

9 minutes ago, CoffeeElemental said:

The only good overguard ability I can think of is Rhino's Iron Skin. For two reasons:

1. It works only for Rhino and does not 'disrupt' anyone;
2. It scales off of enemy damage output. This is important because overguard cannot get damage reduction and overguard cap is honestly bs - it will always feel imbalanced for lower level content and completely irrelevant in higher level content where it gets deleted if a lancer looks at you funny. The window where capped overguard stays relevant is tiny (and different for all frames that have it for some reason). 0.5 seconds gating is nice tho but not much.

So, nerfing Dante's og buff will not achieve much aside from pissing everyone off I think. Making it scale with enemy lvl around Dante when he casts it can work, probably.

Originally, this was a thread about Overguard, not Dante in particular. Why did it get merged?

Hence why they're probably going for his slash nuke ability.

[ABlindGuyPlays]

32 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

HOLY MERGED THREAD !!!

Is this the 2024 equivalent of the heirloom thread ?

More on the order of the Oberon rework thread.

 

Remember day one Oberon supposedly being in a good place? I remember. 

 

I also remember that not stocking because the community kept talking. So, let's keep the conversation going.

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

More on the order of the Oberon rework thread.

 

Remember day one Oberon supposedly being in a good place? I remember. 

 

I also remember that not stocking because the community kept talking. So, let's keep the conversation going.

When the nerfs are revealed (today i assume) this thread is easier gonna die out or go absolutely on fire (i'm guessing the later) 

[GPrime96]

8 minutes ago, CoffeeElemental said:

The only good overguard ability I can think of is Rhino's Iron Skin. For two reasons:

1. It works only for Rhino and does not 'disrupt' anyone;
2. It scales off of enemy damage output. This is important because overguard cannot get damage reduction and overguard cap is honestly bs - it will always feel imbalanced for lower level content and completely irrelevant in higher level content where it gets deleted if a lancer looks at you funny. The window where capped overguard stays relevant is tiny (and different for all frames that have it for some reason). 0.5 seconds gating is nice tho but not much.

So, nerfing Dante's og buff will not achieve much aside from pissing everyone off I think. Making it scale with enemy lvl around Dante when he casts it can work, probably.

Originally, this was a thread about Overguard, not Dante in particular. Why did it get merged?

Rhino is the closest to a eximus than any frame thanks to his scaling Iron Skin that’s also Overguard but for himself. Intrepid Stand Styanax pre - nerf would’ve been the closest to Rhino but it’s also a team wide buff (Final Stand also helps Shields so kind of makes sense to cap his Overguard) with energy regen built into his kit that’s enhanced by Nourish. 

[ABlindGuyPlays]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

When the nerfs are revealed (today i assume) this thread is easier gonna die out or go absolutely on fire (i'm guessing the later) 

Likely the latter, because Dr has tried too often to glad and the problem.when we as a community don't hold their feet to the fire.

 

See also the initial prime resurgence and regal Aya fiasco and how they both couldn't be changed then when it was they loudly stomped and huffed at how we weren't why it changed.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

6 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Whining about nerfs when they haven't even happened yet is even more foolish

Maybe because DE have a history of being heavy handed with their nerfs. What they did to the Catchmoon and the Kuva Zarr was comparable to performing brain surgery with a chainsaw.

[ABlindGuyPlays]

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

Instead of asking to nerf one thing maybe you should ask to buff older warframe and make enemies more challenging in different ways ? but that's too much work to ask for ig

De has outright stated this is the case. That it is too much effort to raise everything up.

[Waeleto]

Just now, ABlindGuyPlays said:

That it is too much effort to raise everything up.

Which to me is WILD, what's even wilder is the people who keep making the pOwErCrEeP argument

[ABlindGuyPlays]

Just now, Waeleto said:

Which to me is WILD, what's even wilder is the people who keep making the pOwErCrEeP argument

I cannot name names thus cannot post clips but it involves the catchmoon if memory serves correct.

 

The best I can hope for is that Dante remains fun

[MouthfulOJoules]

2 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Maybe because DE have a history of being heavy handed with their nerfs. What they did to the Catchmoon and the Kuva Zarr was comparable to performing brain surgery with a chainsaw.

Two words: ammo rework

2 minutes ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

De has outright stated this is the case. That it is too much effort to raise everything up.

In which case shouldn't we get used to power creep leading to a focus on the new frames and weapons coming out, incentives to get them with plat and new content attempting the phase out the old? I wonder when the Acrid is going to receive its own incarnon/infested lich variant.

 

Hard caps on OG make it reliant on spam for levelcap/long form content, but honestly, OG in itself so far feels like a mechanic that's going to end up either massively underpowered (e.g. levelcap og spam) or one that trivializes any challenge short of DPS checks (as it is doing in short form content right now).

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

1 minute ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

Two words: ammo rework

Yeah. And as a result the Kuva Zarr's alternate fire is completely useless. I bet a lot of people forgot that weapon even had one. 🙄

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

Two words: ammo rework

And gyre/styanax post-release "fixes" and helminth eclipse and ember's "rework" and chroma and limbo 

2 minutes ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

Hard caps on OG make it reliant on spam for levelcap/long form content, but honestly, OG in itself so far feels like a mechanic that's going to end up either massively underpowered (e.g. levelcap og spam) or one that trivializes any challenge short of DPS checks (as it is doing in short form content right now).

OG starts falling off from level 300 in sp, the OG regen was an attempt to make it last longer but it'll still only carry you so far 

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

6 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

And gyre/styanax post-release "fixes"

Whose betting DE will "fix" Dante and later sell an augment as a bandaid, just like those two frames.

Edited April 4 by Ace-Bounty-Hunter

[Waeleto]

Just now, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Whose betting DE will "fix" Dante and later sell an augment as a bandaid later, just like those two frames.

This is exactly what i'm worried about, FOR ONCE a warframe comes out and he's perfect without stupid band aid augments and THIS happens, and they wonder why i ask for an augment slot

[Colyeses]

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

• 50k Overguard on the drop of a hat. Actively regenerates when ally or user gets a kill.
  • For those wondering, neither Styanax nor Frost gain the regeneration property of this.
  • Nor do they get the effect without a target. They have to be ACTIVELY in combat.
  • Dante does not.
  • As far as Rhino, Kullervo, etc. are concerned? It only affects themselves.
• Radial Expedite Suffering with Forced Slash. Boosted with a bigger multiplier too.
• Summons that are not affected by map geometry, invincible and distract enemy AI. Makes enemies take more Status Effects.
• A passive buff that grants all players a slightly weaker copy of his Exalted. Fires on enemy taking damage.
• Passive grants +50% Status Chance on any enemy scanned within the Codex. Exalted auto-scans.
• A subsume that grants large forced Slash in a large cone of vision.

I think the better question is "how did they think this was okay?"
But sure, nerfs only hurt the game I guess.

Next you're gonna tell me Styanax is 100% useless because you have to touch the ground every few minutes.
Completely ignoring that his 1 can do the same funny it did prior to the """""nerf""""" just fine.

... but hey, short-sighted fun is all that matters right?
Who cares about the people who want to play the game when you're going, get your fix now!
Disgusting.

50K Overguard sounds amazing on paper, but the reality is that it's not that impressive. Citrine has a very long-lasting 95% DR spreading to the entire team on a single button-press. Qorvex immunises his entire team against status effects as well. Dante's only thing is that he gets both durability and status immunity to the team, so it's not that much above either Citrine or Qorvex.

'Radial expedite suffering with a bigger multiplier' sounds really broken if you fail to mention that Expedite Suffering is terrible. Baseline, Expedite Suffering effectively only applies a stagger. Tragedy has exponential power scaling and might be able to do quite a bit of damage with an absolutely min-maxed build, but that's hardly new. I wager many can outdamage the man with characters like Gyre and Kullervo.

Invincible summons that distract enemy AI is on Octavia too, except that one pairs with another ability that also massacres them. And as far as I can tell, Pageflight does not increase status chance against the targets, but status damage instead. Meaning it has very limited application.

75% damage reduction is not 'slightly weaker'. Wordwarden is negligible at best. Not to mention that Noctua and Wordwarden hate each others' guts, design-wise.

+50% status chance, unless it's flat additive, is less than half a mod.

Dark Verse does not do 'large Slash'. 

 

Dante is being massively oversold here. In terms of his offensive potential, he is significantly weaker than a lot of other picks like Protea, Kullervo, Gyre and even Vauban. The only thing that an argument can be made for is that Triumph does too much, and I could see a nerf to the Overguard given to allies as being a reasonable one. But his damage can't drop further without him becoming a non-pick. 

He's good, but boring. Don't make him drop to 'ok, but boring'. 

[Binket_]

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

Instead of asking to nerf one thing maybe you should ask to buff older warframe and make enemies more challenging in different ways ? but that's too much work to ask for ig

You know what?
No. I'm not humoring this.
There has been a billion ways to dissect that horrible take, here's one not from me for a change:
https://youtu.be/yLB5C3Ntkg0?si=dS2vjtHJnBO-k8cm&t=99 _{^{(Binket, you have bookmarks for a reason. You really should just do this more often.)}}

Do you own homework. Timestamp 1:39 to 2:40.
Literally a single minute, surely you can handle that... right? Right?!
^{Cripes, it's like trying to herd cats or take blood from a rock with some of you...}

 

1 hour ago, PsiWarp said:

For example, Overguard generation on Dante, at least for allies, should be dialed down so not everyone of them can be a pocket Kullervo with twice the Overguard cap (Light Verse and Triumph are using separate caps).

Personally, I always felt the "beeg nombors" that everyone loves were too easy to obtain. Especially in Overguard.
Enemies don't chew through it enough to warrant having 50k Overguard at times.
Especially when you already have two other Health-Types to go through, death becomes a joke. One that nobody is laughing at.

Limiting the amount gained at any given point seems more likely. A bit of "best for both worlds" sorta idea.
So, I think "why not just take the amount a player would normally get and divide that across all entities receiving it?"

If Dante would normally get 1k Overguard from a single cast? If it affects 8 targets (himself, his pet, squad and their pets), each gets 125 Overguard.
A lot more feasible without touching the cap outright. It makes players struggle to maintain what is effectively a "bonus" health.

This makes smaller squads easier to manage at the cost of... well... more "manpower" associated with bigger squads.
Likewise, bigger squads will have a tougher time upkeeping that. While having more variety to work with.

 

Hell, one could even go a step further and make this a change across the board.
A lot of Warframes tend to have some "Support" function that makes other dedicated Supports less effective.
Trinity is a common one to point out for this very thing.

Wisp's Reservoirs are strong, but that's because they affect the entire squad very easily. Not because the Health Regen alone is good.
Harrow has great Energy Regen, but so does Styanax with less effort. (Not to mention Nourish existing.)
Titania can make allies Status Immune, but only so many in a given cast.

Plenty more examples, the point is that if you make effects that cover broader audiences/area in a single cast less effective as the targets affected increases?
You'll see more use in Warframes that prefer to bolster a single target (Nidus' Parasitic Link, Gara's Splinterstorm, etc.)
... or Abilities that require manually affecting a target (Ivara's Cloak Arrow, Nezha's Safeguard Augment, Volt's Transistor Shield Augment, etc.)

 

But that's just my three cents on how I'd try to fix it.
I often say, there's nothing with being strong-- but there has to be some effort and planning associated with it.
If the integrity of the game doesn't exist, so too does the joy of overcoming tough odds slowly numb out.

 

38 minutes ago, _Eclips3_ said:

DE d e s p i s e s nuke abilities apparently.

To be fair, I wouldn't know how to make a decent game either if everything I throw at a playerbase HAS to be squishy low-level fodder.

It's like playing a DnD campaign, except every damn encounter is a Level 1 Goblin that's unarmed.
After a while, it gets stale. Faster as time goes on.
Why are they only fighting Level 1 Goblins?
I dunno, one of the players goes into a frenzy anytime anything else shows up and makes the experience worse for everyone else.
Why haven't we kicked that player?
Apparently we're stuck with them, nobody knows why. Nobody knows how. It just happened and we're stuck with it now.

That's Warframe at it's current moment.
Nukes only accent that problem further, now it doesn't matter how many "Goblins" I throw at the party capable of rending space apart.
The Goblins die, the players are bored and we can't do anything about it because SOMEBODY doesn't like fighting anything else.

 

33 minutes ago, CoffeeElemental said:

Originally, this was a thread about Overguard, not Dante in particular. Why did it get merged?

DE has been going on a spree with those at the moment.
Drives me nuts because I usually got a lot of replies written for people who have replied back, only to find the post has vanished off the planet along with all the conversation.

"Just roll with, Bink... just roll with it... stupid people will do stupid things, focus on the stuff that matters..."
... is something I say a lot here, especially through grit teeth.

Half the time it's DE, half the time it's the players.
Full time it's something that could've easily been avoided if people stopped thinking short-term.

 

30 minutes ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

Also would like to add, that balance is relative. A good alternative to asking for nerfs is requesting content that is difficult enough to make those builds necessary for more than speedrunning defense nodes or doing a survival without loot frames and LS and rewarding enough so that people using those builds will naturally gravitate towards it.

This is a big one (and one I agree with!) but there comes a caveat with that.

At a certain point, you have to ask yourself when looking at the balance of the game:
"If I were a dev for this game, how the hell am I going to introduce a challenge that is fair and interesting?"

• Some would say "buff the enemy"... but they've done that. It's Steel Path and that's still a joke.
  • Power creep certainly had a hand in that.
    • Though personally? I saw it as a joke even when it came out.
    • ... I'm still not laughing.
  • Even still, "buffing enemies" tends to fall flat when we keep getting methods like Armor Stripping to keep enemies at bay.
    • Armor Stripping itself is not a bad idea, mind you. It's that if you're strictly relying on levels? It's not going to enough.
• Some would say "more mechanics"... but those take extreme planning to make sure it even stays balance.
  • This is assuming the previous "mechanics" are completely done ideas and cannot be improved upon any further.
  • Both of which Warframe does poorly as is, mainly due to the extreme power creep they keep introducing.
  • Mechanics if not thought out properly can more devastating than without them.
    • Exactly why it's important to run through as much as you can that this "new mechanic" will affect.
    • However, this takes a lot of time. Especially if you need multiple people to pitch in, since one person's knowledge of the game is never universal.
• Some would say "meaningful missions"... but we're so powerful that literally nothing can stop us at times.
  • If it's a pre-existing mission type? You either make that across the broad (Risks disrupting existing balance) or to a specific node. (Forgettable)
  • If it's a new mission type? You gotta MANAUALLY develop new maps, new interactable objects, record new voice lines, create new parameters, etc.
    • All of that takes a lot of time and only affects a portion of the game.
    • Honestly, I'm surprised DE doesn't reuse assets from stuff like the Zariman nodes to help boost the overall Star Chart.
    • Better yet, I'm even more surprised that DE hasn't tried to add "node-specific" quirks. So that less become "Oh, it's just Exterminate for Saturn".
  • In addition, both of these have to withstand the test of time. Future changes will not always be kind to these.
• Some would say "new enemies", which is a good idea considering how many "copy-pasted" ones we have.
  • ... but many are not fond of "new types of enemies" for various reasons. Most of which are petty and pointless.
  • There also runs the risk of having too much variance, to which every mission becomes chaotic.
  • I find the best balance for that is making some enemies prefer different nodes on different planets. (This also works towards "meaningful missions"!)

There's also a lot more to go over, but this is long as is...

The point is that a developer can only do so much if our power is out of control. ESPECIALLY if you factor in budgets, development time, etc.
It's for that SAME REASON why I get on DE's case for not nerfing stuff like this and just going with a "hyperfixation" route.
I know DE is a company of people, but they need to work efficiently AND productively. We are often forgetting this and it falls on DE to make that clear.

 

18 minutes ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

Likely the latter, because Dr has tried too often to glad and the problem.when we as a community don't hold their feet to the fire.

I remember how some parts of the Community review bombed the hell out of Warframe because they made Wukong less automated.
They also made ammo less spammable on common AoE weapons, which many people threw a massive fit over.
^{(Which is a bad joke if you're properly picking up ammo anyway. As you should be anyway in a """Looter Shooter""" as people call it.)}

Yet things like the Heirloom Pack had people defending it with such things as "Lmao, look at my shiny crown that I paid for! Imagine being poor."

Sometimes I worry about you people. Not for your mental health-- that was gone years ago, but more for MY safety because you people exist IRL too.
The fact that real-life events can be catastrophically altered by the existence of people like this being stupid? There is no greater fear for me.
ESPECIALLY because people like that are often in places of high power.

16 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

What they did to the Catchmoon and the Kuva Zarr was comparable to performing brain surgery with a chainsaw.

2 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Yeah. And as a result the Kuva Zarr's alternate fire is completely useless. I bet a lot of people forgot that weapon even had one.

... you mean the nerf to Kuva Zarr where it has less Ammo to use?
Ammo of which is quite literally EVERYWHERE so long as things are dying to a decent degree?
Kills of which are anything but unlikely in a game like Warframe? Infamous for being a firestorm of bodies?

You have a Secondary. You have a Melee. _{(which doesn't need Ammo!)}
You even have an Archgun if you so much as care to grab that.
If you're so inclined, you could even use an ability or two.
MAYBE even an Ammo Pad if you're really desperate.

God forbid you swap your equipment around once or twice a mission.
I don't know why it's some herculean task for players to plan ahead slightly and bring supplies.

... but I do agree with the Alt-Fire bit.
Unfortunately, that's what happens when EVERYONE keeps spamming the strategy and thinks a nerf won't happen.
Something along the lines of "F* around and find out" comes to mind?

14 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Which to me is WILD, what's even wilder is the people who keep making the pOwErCrEeP argument

See also: Youtube Video I put at the top for ya, just a bit behind the timestamp... about 1:24 instead of 1:39.
Chekchek? We good? A'ight.

4 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

And gyre/styanax post-release "fixes" and helminth eclipse and ember's "rework" and chroma and limbo 

• Helminth Eclipse still works fine. Probably BETTER now thanks to the Hold/Tap function.
  • Previous Eclipse was a hot mess of code. Damn thing once boosted SCANNER SPEED of all things.
• Ember's rework is great! Excessive powercreep overshadowing it is not.
• Chroma has been needing a buff for years, one look at "Spectral Scream" doesn't exactly make that subtle.
• Limbo is just the product of people being dumb and DE not knowing how to fix the stigma anymore.
  • Contrary to what many may think, Limbo isn't THAT bad.
  • He does need some freshening up like Loki, but perfectly capable once you know how he works.
  • ... but asking a Warframe Player to do a basic skimming of a Wiki is like asking the homeless if you can borrow 1k$.
    • It. Doesn't. Work. Unlike the homeless thing though, I CAN beat the knowledge into players. It just takes time!~
    • There is a reason my Grimoire is renamed to "Textbook of Bludgeoning" after all.
• Genuinely unsure what you're referring to Gyre, but given how you mention "Styanax"?
  • Same to assume it's something silly and petty. Yes, you can't fly forever in his 4. Get over it.
  • Bonus points, you can use Styanax's 1 for a similar effect. Not that anyone will admit it.

4 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

50K Overguard sounds amazing on paper, but the reality is that it's not that impressive. Citrine has a very long-lasting 95% DR spreading to the entire team on a single button-press. Qorvex immunises his entire team against status effects as well. Dante's only thing is that he gets both durability and status immunity to the team, so it's not that much above either Citrine or Qorvex.

• If the content is high enough where your Overguard gets zapped out of existence? Chances are your Shields (and Health) are soon to follow.
  • However, such content RARELY shows up enough for it be of any concern whatsoever for the average player.
  • So usually, you just have a bunch of Overguard not going down. Ever.
  • Also, it's constantly being recast since it's an integral part of Dante's kit.
    • Unlike Frost or Styanax who need to spam a specific high-energy cost ability.
• Citrine having 95% DR to the entire squad IS something I have considered looking at.
  • However, I'm still pondering how to exactly make a good fix for it.
  • So that is to say, "yes, I am aware of it."
• Qorvex making Status Immunity is but one of many.
  • It DOES NOT however act as a large cover for damage or things other than Status.
  • ... which honestly, I'm not even sure why he has that-- but eh. Could be worse.
• Unlike Citrine? Dante has a vast amount of damage output radially.
  • Citrine has her Prismatic Gem, but it's locked to enemies actively taking damage.
  • In addition, while it does boost a player's Status Chance and apply four different kinds of Status? It's locked to a general area upon cost.
    • Dante spams the everliving crud out of this. With a damage multiplier.
  • While Citrine also her Crystalize? It's also... unreliable.
    • Some weapons take the effect, some don't.
    • Some modifiers work, some don't.
    • It's a big boost! ... when it works.
• Unlike Qorvex? Dante can do what he was faster and with far less hassle.
  • Sounds good on paper, but the reason Qorvex can do what he does is because he needs to plan ahead for where he wants his Chyrinka Pillars.
    • His Crucible Blast is powerful, but relies on his Pillars to make the most of it.
    • The range is not only limited to the pillars, but is also rather small.
  • Disometric Guard sounds nice, but it's not anything new.
    • In fact, for what we expected from it in terms of how Power Creep is going? It's rather mundane.
    • Refreshing, if all else.

15 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

'Radial expedite suffering with a bigger multiplier' sounds really broken if you fail to mention that Expedite Suffering is terrible. Baseline, Expedite Suffering effectively only applies a stagger. Tragedy has exponential power scaling and might be able to do quite a bit of damage with an absolutely min-maxed build, but that's hardly new. I wager many can outdamage the man with characters like Gyre and Kullervo.

35 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Dark Verse does not do 'large Slash'. 

I'm going to keep this blunt.

To cast "Tragedy", you must...

1. Cast Dark Verse twice prior. Dark Verse does 2 instances of Forced Slash Proc damage.
2. These Slash Procs have a base value of 1250 Slash. For comparasion? Shuriken does 500 and hits very few targets.
3. That is AT LEAST 4 instances of Slash for all targets you decide to hit.

Assuming enemies are not already near death from Slash procs- something that bypasses Armor- casting "Tragedy" will now proc ANOTHER 6.5k Damage Slash PRoc.
Of which ALSO gets another Multiplier of x3. Triple the value.

All at base Ability Strength. I don't even need my conditionals to hit x6.
Are you blind or simply just dense? Pick your poison.

22 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Invincible summons that distract enemy AI is on Octavia too, except that one pairs with another ability that also massacres them. And as far as I can tell, Pageflight does not increase status chance against the targets, but status damage instead. Meaning it has very limited application.

Most of what I read said it's Status Chance. If it's Status Damage?
... just like... refer to the very previous segment.

Do I need to explain that? Do I REALLY need to explain that?
Please tell me I don't have to explain why boosting an already massive multiplied Slash proc further is pretty nutty.
Kullervo may have Storm of Ukko, but Dante has "dislocate blood" in a fraction of time there.

As for Octavia's summon? Yes, but she also doesn't have an atomic bomb of shrapnel she can deploy at any given moment.
Don't get me wrong, I think Octavia is pretty rife for getting on the chopping block herself-- but let's not kid ourselves.
This is pretty damn strong as just ONE part of his kit. A single fractional piece of a single ability.

26 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

75% damage reduction is not 'slightly weaker'. Wordwarden is negligible at best. Not to mention that Noctua and Wordwarden hate each others' guts, design-wise.

+50% status chance, unless it's flat additive, is less than half a mod.

Not sure where you saw "75% Damage Reduction" specifically, so I'll skip that.

Wordwarden is probably the weakest part of his entire arsenal, still viable in some degree since Noctua itself has such high amounts of damage.
250 Base Slash Damage doesn't sound like a lot until you factor in that it's getting both Ability Strength boosted and mods to work with that.
Not even factoring in Status or Critical-- since I'm not even sure if it factors in those. Probably does, all things considered.

So even if it's "30% of the original's damage"... that's still 30% extra firepower for EVERYONE, not just Dante!
Using Dante's mods with Dante's damage and maybe even proc'ing any of the Tome Mods Dante put on.
This doesn't even inhibit his current performance either, so this has zero drawbacks even if it is weaker than the rest.

+50% Status Chance may be less than some mods, but this applied instantly to ALL enemies that are within the Codex.
Of which usually only requires a handful of entries, even for the rarer ones. Half a single mission with Dante can easily achieve this.
... may I also point out that DARK VERSE and TRAGEDY exist. Already fueling the quasar that is the damage output from that!

36 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Dante is being massively oversold here. In terms of his offensive potential, he is significantly weaker than a lot of other picks like Protea, Kullervo, Gyre and even Vauban.

• Protea is strong, yes. Not "radially nuke the room" strong though.
• Kullervo and Gyre both have something similar, their high offenses are offset with lower defenses.
  • Yes, they are VERY strong. Without a doubt... but if a player screws up? It hits them especially hard.
  • Kullervo, who needs to be ready for when his Overguard breaks-- as he as NO Shields to back him up.
  • Gyre has no direct way of stopping enemies if they are immune to stuns and get too close.
• Vauban? Really? The glorified singularity?
  • Look, I've TRIED Vauban outside of his Vortex. In real-time combat when you're not spamming Vortex to trivialize things?
  • He's not only frailer than most would like, but his damage is not too great either.
  • Flechette Orbs are his best bet, but they're not perfect. Otherwise, maybe Photon Strike.
  • Bastille doesn't exist, so long as Vortex is stapled to it. Trust me, there would be SO much opened up for actual fun usage if it wasn't.
• If we wanna go further? Revenant can be extremely durable, but outside of that? His offenses can be lacking.
  • Reave is very powerful with it's % of Max Health thing, but it's most effective on Thralls. Something he'll have trouble upkeeping if not careful.
  • Plus, most only care for his Mesmer Skin anyway. I have used him in clever ways before, so it's not impossible to enjoy him without it!

46 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

He's good, but boring. Don't make him drop to 'ok, but boring'.

... how about we make him NOT boring to begin with? You can do that, y'know. It's not illegal!

God forbid we enjoy Video Games by engaging with the medium instead of...
... Treat it like watching a movie with quick-time events as "audience participation". ^{_{(Movie theaters are missing out on a huge gimmick if we're really going down this route.)}}
I swear, some people in this game may as well play this like a Visual Novel. Which are commonly debated if they even are games. 
I just say they're glorified books myself, but hey-- thematics, I guess.

But hey, I'm just a user who (ideally) likes bringing out the best in players. _{(As much as I'm allowed to anyway...)}
So what does me and my White Mage antics know? Nothing of value, truuuuuly.

[Operativ]

I think many elements of Warframe could use a rebalance. Warframes, both the stronger and the weaker ones, enemies and how damage & armour mechanics are being handled that drives the need for 1000+ level enemies to even appear at all.

However on topic, yes, I believe Dante is overtuned with how the overguard functions on him and his allies. That also does not invalidate the fact that other frames, like Kullervo, Voruna, etc. could use a balancing pass so as to not 'bring everything to the new, strongest standard' every single time. Balance is a delicate matter, and can be a very nice way to keep things both fun and challenging at the same time.

[Waeleto]

25 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

You know what?
No. I'm not humoring this.
There has been a billion ways to dissect that horrible take, here's one not from me for a change:
https://youtu.be/yLB5C3Ntkg0?si=dS2vjtHJnBO-k8cm&t=99 _{^{(Binket, you have bookmarks for a reason. You really should just do this more often.)}}

Do you own homework. Timestamp 1:39 to 2:40.
Literally a single minute, surely you can handle that... right? Right?!
^{Cripes, it's like trying to herd cats or take blood from a rock with some of you...}

 

Personally, I always felt the "beeg nombors" that everyone loves were too easy to obtain. Especially in Overguard.
Enemies don't chew through it enough to warrant having 50k Overguard at times.
Especially when you already have two other Health-Types to go through, death becomes a joke. One that nobody is laughing at.

Limiting the amount gained at any given point seems more likely. A bit of "best for both worlds" sorta idea.
So, I think "why not just take the amount a player would normally get and divide that across all entities receiving it?"

If Dante would normally get 1k Overguard from a single cast? If it affects 8 targets (himself, his pet, squad and their pets), each gets 125 Overguard.
A lot more feasible without touching the cap outright. It makes players struggle to maintain what is effectively a "bonus" health.

This makes smaller squads easier to manage at the cost of... well... more "manpower" associated with bigger squads.
Likewise, bigger squads will have a tougher time upkeeping that. While having more variety to work with.

 

Hell, one could even go a step further and make this a change across the board.
A lot of Warframes tend to have some "Support" function that makes other dedicated Supports less effective.
Trinity is a common one to point out for this very thing.

Wisp's Reservoirs are strong, but that's because they affect the entire squad very easily. Not because the Health Regen alone is good.
Harrow has great Energy Regen, but so does Styanax with less effort. (Not to mention Nourish existing.)
Titania can make allies Status Immune, but only so many in a given cast.

Plenty more examples, the point is that if you make effects that cover broader audiences/area in a single cast less effective as the targets affected increases?
You'll see more use in Warframes that prefer to bolster a single target (Nidus' Parasitic Link, Gara's Splinterstorm, etc.)
... or Abilities that require manually affecting a target (Ivara's Cloak Arrow, Nezha's Safeguard Augment, Volt's Transistor Shield Augment, etc.)

 

But that's just my three cents on how I'd try to fix it.
I often say, there's nothing with being strong-- but there has to be some effort and planning associated with it.
If the integrity of the game doesn't exist, so too does the joy of overcoming tough odds slowly numb out.

 

To be fair, I wouldn't know how to make a decent game either if everything I throw at a playerbase HAS to be squishy low-level fodder.

It's like playing a DnD campaign, except every damn encounter is a Level 1 Goblin that's unarmed.
After a while, it gets stale. Faster as time goes on.
Why are they only fighting Level 1 Goblins?
I dunno, one of the players goes into a frenzy anytime anything else shows up and makes the experience worse for everyone else.
Why haven't we kicked that player?
Apparently we're stuck with them, nobody knows why. Nobody knows how. It just happened and we're stuck with it now.

That's Warframe at it's current moment.
Nukes only accent that problem further, now it doesn't matter how many "Goblins" I throw at the party capable of rending space apart.
The Goblins die, the players are bored and we can't do anything about it because SOMEBODY doesn't like fighting anything else.

 

DE has been going on a spree with those at the moment.
Drives me nuts because I usually got a lot of replies written for people who have replied back, only to find the post has vanished off the planet along with all the conversation.

"Just roll with, Bink... just roll with it... stupid people will do stupid things, focus on the stuff that matters..."
... is something I say a lot here, especially through grit teeth.

Half the time it's DE, half the time it's the players.
Full time it's something that could've easily been avoided if people stopped thinking short-term.

 

This is a big one (and one I agree with!) but there comes a caveat with that.

At a certain point, you have to ask yourself when looking at the balance of the game:
"If I were a dev for this game, how the hell am I going to introduce a challenge that is fair and interesting?"

• Some would say "buff the enemy"... but they've done that. It's Steel Path and that's still a joke.
  • Power creep certainly had a hand in that.
    • Though personally? I saw it as a joke even when it came out.
    • ... I'm still not laughing.
  • Even still, "buffing enemies" tends to fall flat when we keep getting methods like Armor Stripping to keep enemies at bay.
    • Armor Stripping itself is not a bad idea, mind you. It's that if you're strictly relying on levels? It's not going to enough.
• Some would say "more mechanics"... but those take extreme planning to make sure it even stays balance.
  • This is assuming the previous "mechanics" are completely done ideas and cannot be improved upon any further.
  • Both of which Warframe does poorly as is, mainly due to the extreme power creep they keep introducing.
  • Mechanics if not thought out properly can more devastating than without them.
    • Exactly why it's important to run through as much as you can that this "new mechanic" will affect.
    • However, this takes a lot of time. Especially if you need multiple people to pitch in, since one person's knowledge of the game is never universal.
• Some would say "meaningful missions"... but we're so powerful that literally nothing can stop us at times.
  • If it's a pre-existing mission type? You either make that across the broad (Risks disrupting existing balance) or to a specific node. (Forgettable)
  • If it's a new mission type? You gotta MANAUALLY develop new maps, new interactable objects, record new voice lines, create new parameters, etc.
    • All of that takes a lot of time and only affects a portion of the game.
    • Honestly, I'm surprised DE doesn't reuse assets from stuff like the Zariman nodes to help boost the overall Star Chart.
    • Better yet, I'm even more surprised that DE hasn't tried to add "node-specific" quirks. So that less become "Oh, it's just Exterminate for Saturn".
  • In addition, both of these have to withstand the test of time. Future changes will not always be kind to these.
• Some would say "new enemies", which is a good idea considering how many "copy-pasted" ones we have.
  • ... but many are not fond of "new types of enemies" for various reasons. Most of which are petty and pointless.
  • There also runs the risk of having too much variance, to which every mission becomes chaotic.
  • I find the best balance for that is making some enemies prefer different nodes on different planets. (This also works towards "meaningful missions"!)

There's also a lot more to go over, but this is long as is...

The point is that a developer can only do so much if our power is out of control. ESPECIALLY if you factor in budgets, development time, etc.
It's for that SAME REASON why I get on DE's case for not nerfing stuff like this and just going with a "hyperfixation" route.
I know DE is a company of people, but they need to work efficiently AND productively. We are often forgetting this and it falls on DE to make that clear.

 

I remember how some parts of the Community review bombed the hell out of Warframe because they made Wukong less automated.
They also made ammo less spammable on common AoE weapons, which many people threw a massive fit over.
^{(Which is a bad joke if you're properly picking up ammo anyway. As you should be anyway in a """Looter Shooter""" as people call it.)}

Yet things like the Heirloom Pack had people defending it with such things as "Lmao, look at my shiny crown that I paid for! Imagine being poor."

Sometimes I worry about you people. Not for your mental health-- that was gone years ago, but more for MY safety because you people exist IRL too.
The fact that real-life events can be catastrophically altered by the existence of people like this being stupid? There is no greater fear for me.
ESPECIALLY because people like that are often in places of high power.

... you mean the nerf to Kuva Zarr where it has less Ammo to use?
Ammo of which is quite literally EVERYWHERE so long as things are dying to a decent degree?
Kills of which are anything but unlikely in a game like Warframe? Infamous for being a firestorm of bodies?

You have a Secondary. You have a Melee. _{(which doesn't need Ammo!)}
You even have an Archgun if you so much as care to grab that.
If you're so inclined, you could even use an ability or two.
MAYBE even an Ammo Pad if you're really desperate.

God forbid you swap your equipment around once or twice a mission.
I don't know why it's some herculean task for players to plan ahead slightly and bring supplies.

... but I do agree with the Alt-Fire bit.
Unfortunately, that's what happens when EVERYONE keeps spamming the strategy and thinks a nerf won't happen.
Something along the lines of "F* around and find out" comes to mind?

See also: Youtube Video I put at the top for ya, just a bit behind the timestamp... about 1:24 instead of 1:39.
Chekchek? We good? A'ight.

• Helminth Eclipse still works fine. Probably BETTER now thanks to the Hold/Tap function.
  • Previous Eclipse was a hot mess of code. Damn thing once boosted SCANNER SPEED of all things.
• Ember's rework is great! Excessive powercreep overshadowing it is not.
• Chroma has been needing a buff for years, one look at "Spectral Scream" doesn't exactly make that subtle.
• Limbo is just the product of people being dumb and DE not knowing how to fix the stigma anymore.
  • Contrary to what many may think, Limbo isn't THAT bad.
  • He does need some freshening up like Loki, but perfectly capable once you know how he works.
  • ... but asking a Warframe Player to do a basic skimming of a Wiki is like asking the homeless if you can borrow 1k$.
    • It. Doesn't. Work. Unlike the homeless thing though, I CAN beat the knowledge into players. It just takes time!~
    • There is a reason my Grimoire is renamed to "Textbook of Bludgeoning" after all.
• Genuinely unsure what you're referring to Gyre, but given how you mention "Styanax"?
  • Same to assume it's something silly and petty. Yes, you can't fly forever in his 4. Get over it.
  • Bonus points, you can use Styanax's 1 for a similar effect. Not that anyone will admit it.

• If the content is high enough where your Overguard gets zapped out of existence? Chances are your Shields (and Health) are soon to follow.
  • However, such content RARELY shows up enough for it be of any concern whatsoever for the average player.
  • So usually, you just have a bunch of Overguard not going down. Ever.
  • Also, it's constantly being recast since it's an integral part of Dante's kit.
    • Unlike Frost or Styanax who need to spam a specific high-energy cost ability.
• Citrine having 95% DR to the entire squad IS something I have considered looking at.
  • However, I'm still pondering how to exactly make a good fix for it.
  • So that is to say, "yes, I am aware of it."
• Qorvex making Status Immunity is but one of many.
  • It DOES NOT however act as a large cover for damage or things other than Status.
  • ... which honestly, I'm not even sure why he has that-- but eh. Could be worse.
• Unlike Citrine? Dante has a vast amount of damage output radially.
  • Citrine has her Prismatic Gem, but it's locked to enemies actively taking damage.
  • In addition, while it does boost a player's Status Chance and apply four different kinds of Status? It's locked to a general area upon cost.
    • Dante spams the everliving crud out of this. With a damage multiplier.
  • While Citrine also her Crystalize? It's also... unreliable.
    • Some weapons take the effect, some don't.
    • Some modifiers work, some don't.
    • It's a big boost! ... when it works.
• Unlike Qorvex? Dante can do what he was faster and with far less hassle.
  • Sounds good on paper, but the reason Qorvex can do what he does is because he needs to plan ahead for where he wants his Chyrinka Pillars.
    • His Crucible Blast is powerful, but relies on his Pillars to make the most of it.
    • The range is not only limited to the pillars, but is also rather small.
  • Disometric Guard sounds nice, but it's not anything new.
    • In fact, for what we expected from it in terms of how Power Creep is going? It's rather mundane.
    • Refreshing, if all else.

I'm going to keep this blunt.

To cast "Tragedy", you must...

1. Cast Dark Verse twice prior. Dark Verse does 2 instances of Forced Slash Proc damage.
2. These Slash Procs have a base value of 1250 Slash. For comparasion? Shuriken does 500 and hits very few targets.
3. That is AT LEAST 4 instances of Slash for all targets you decide to hit.

Assuming enemies are not already near death from Slash procs- something that bypasses Armor- casting "Tragedy" will now proc ANOTHER 6.5k Damage Slash PRoc.
Of which ALSO gets another Multiplier of x3. Triple the value.

All at base Ability Strength. I don't even need my conditionals to hit x6.
Are you blind or simply just dense? Pick your poison.

Most of what I read said it's Status Chance. If it's Status Damage?
... just like... refer to the very previous segment.

Do I need to explain that? Do I REALLY need to explain that?
Please tell me I don't have to explain why boosting an already massive multiplied Slash proc further is pretty nutty.
Kullervo may have Storm of Ukko, but Dante has "dislocate blood" in a fraction of time there.

As for Octavia's summon? Yes, but she also doesn't have an atomic bomb of shrapnel she can deploy at any given moment.
Don't get me wrong, I think Octavia is pretty rife for getting on the chopping block herself-- but let's not kid ourselves.
This is pretty damn strong as just ONE part of his kit. A single fractional piece of a single ability.

Not sure where you saw "75% Damage Reduction" specifically, so I'll skip that.

Wordwarden is probably the weakest part of his entire arsenal, still viable in some degree since Noctua itself has such high amounts of damage.
250 Base Slash Damage doesn't sound like a lot until you factor in that it's getting both Ability Strength boosted and mods to work with that.
Not even factoring in Status or Critical-- since I'm not even sure if it factors in those. Probably does, all things considered.

So even if it's "30% of the original's damage"... that's still 30% extra firepower for EVERYONE, not just Dante!
Using Dante's mods with Dante's damage and maybe even proc'ing any of the Tome Mods Dante put on.
This doesn't even inhibit his current performance either, so this has zero drawbacks even if it is weaker than the rest.

+50% Status Chance may be less than some mods, but this applied instantly to ALL enemies that are within the Codex.
Of which usually only requires a handful of entries, even for the rarer ones. Half a single mission with Dante can easily achieve this.
... may I also point out that DARK VERSE and TRAGEDY exist. Already fueling the quasar that is the damage output from that!

• Protea is strong, yes. Not "radially nuke the room" strong though.
• Kullervo and Gyre both have something similar, their high offenses are offset with lower defenses.
  • Yes, they are VERY strong. Without a doubt... but if a player screws up? It hits them especially hard.
  • Kullervo, who needs to be ready for when his Overguard breaks-- as he as NO Shields to back him up.
  • Gyre has no direct way of stopping enemies if they are immune to stuns and get too close.
• Vauban? Really? The glorified singularity?
  • Look, I've TRIED Vauban outside of his Vortex. In real-time combat when you're not spamming Vortex to trivialize things?
  • He's not only frailer than most would like, but his damage is not too great either.
  • Flechette Orbs are his best bet, but they're not perfect. Otherwise, maybe Photon Strike.
  • Bastille doesn't exist, so long as Vortex is stapled to it. Trust me, there would be SO much opened up for actual fun usage if it wasn't.
• If we wanna go further? Revenant can be extremely durable, but outside of that? His offenses can be lacking.
  • Reave is very powerful with it's % of Max Health thing, but it's most effective on Thralls. Something he'll have trouble upkeeping if not careful.
  • Plus, most only care for his Mesmer Skin anyway. I have used him in clever ways before, so it's not impossible to enjoy him without it!

... how about we make him NOT boring to begin with? You can do that, y'know. It's not illegal!

God forbid we enjoy Video Games by engaging with the medium instead of...
... Treat it like watching a movie with quick-time events as "audience participation". ^{_{(Movie theaters are missing out on a huge gimmick if we're really going down this route.)}}
I swear, some people in this game may as well play this like a Visual Novel. Which are commonly debated if they even are games. 
I just say they're glorified books myself, but hey-- thematics, I guess.

But hey, I'm just a user who (ideally) likes bringing out the best in players. _{(As much as I'm allowed to anyway...)}
So what does me and my White Mage antics know? Nothing of value, truuuuuly.

This is an INSANE level of yapping, get off your high horse

[OneOmniverse]

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Dante was released on a 4-day weekend, I doubt anyone on the team besides Megan was even looking at the forums

Little history lesson for you: Styanax was nerfed six days after his release. As of this writing he holds the record, not Dante. And you know what the Styanax nerf was? Removed the ability to cast his 4th ability "Final Stand" multiple times in midair. That's it, that was it. If that's an indicator of things to come, THAT is the level of "nerf" you can expect from Dante

Don’t need a history lesson to see they are doing the same thing all the other devs are doing which is nerf nerf nerf something as soon as it comes out. Doesn’t matter what nerf it is ,there should even be any nerfs

[Binket_]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

This is an INSANE level of yapping, get off your high horse

Some of us put in the effort, actually elaborate our points and discuss things when they don't make sense.
Why don't you? Clearly if Dante doesn't need a nerf, surely you must have enough reason to type more than a single sentence!
But that'd require understanding what the hell you're barking about. Feel free to prove me wrong.
Maybe I'm the crazy one for trying to talk to a feral animal, but hey-- they learned how to type, so it was worth a shot!~

Besides, most of it wasn't even directed specifically at you anyway.
Feel free to learn how to skim text! ... or don't.
^{I don't exactly have much faith in most players to begin with. So I'll work on that if you work on this, k?}

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Clearly if Dante doesn't need a nerf, surely you must have enough reason to type more than a single sentence!

Everything is here in this thread, feel free to read the entire 27 pages of it but i doubt you'll change your mind anyways since you are one of the people who constantly scream "NERF NERF NERF" even before dante came out

[Colyeses]

5 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Also, it's constantly being recast since it's an integral part of Dante's kit.

• Unlike Frost or Styanax who need to spam a specific high-energy cost ability.

 

I am not constantly recasting Triumph, it's a persistent ability. If I catch someone getting low, I'll recast it, but otherwise I won't. And Triumph is, in effect, a 100 energy ability, which is higher than Styanax' defense pick.

6 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Citrine having 95% DR to the entire squad IS something I have considered looking at.

This is where you just go off the deep end though. Warframe is not Destiny. This is not a problem.

7 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Unlike Citrine? Dante has a vast amount of damage output radially.

• Citrine has her Prismatic Gem, but it's locked to enemies actively taking damage.
• In addition, while it does boost a player's Status Chance and apply four different kinds of Status? It's locked to a general area upon cost.
  • Dante spams the everliving crud out of this. With a damage multiplier.
• While Citrine also her Crystalize? It's also... unreliable.
  • Some weapons take the effect, some don't.
  • Some modifiers work, some don't.
  • It's a big boost! ... when it works.

 

This is just showing a flawed perception. You're selling Citrine short, and overselling Dante. 

First off: Dante's radial damage is terrible. Tragedy's damage is almost entirely in the multiplier for DoTs. The fact that it's stored in this particular element means that it requires supplementary status stacking in order to take off, which means that this kit-dependency that you mention for Citrine's Crystallise also applies to Tragedy. It's just that Dante needs status weapons, while Citrine wants precision. 

Additionally, Prismatic Gem can very easily be repositioned, so its location based restriction is easily overcome. It also affects status chance, which means it works with ALL status effects. It's significantly more powerful too, and with one Archon mod, it gets a ton of armor strip stacked on it. Yes, it requires targets to take damage, be it from a source within the gem's (generous) radius, or it requires the target to be in the radius, but her 1 also ticks it off. And that thing, coincidentally, also produces a ton of energy orbs. 

Dante, meanwhile, has to get multiple casts out to get anything done and then doesn't accomplish all that much.

Also, you can bold 'damage multiplier' all you like, but 0 x 500 is still 0. Or are you going to make an issue over Vauban's Flechettes getting a basekit multiplier of x13 against level 130+ enemies, too?

16 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Unlike Qorvex? Dante can do what he was faster and with far less hassle.

• Sounds good on paper, but the reason Qorvex can do what he does is because he needs to plan ahead for where he wants his Chyrinka Pillars.

 

Disometric Guard does not require the pillars.

16 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

His Crucible Blast is powerful, but relies on his Pillars to make the most of it.

Neither does Crucible Blast! Containment Wall does that!

18 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Disometric Guard sounds nice, but it's not anything new.

• In fact, for what we expected from it in terms of how Power Creep is going? It's rather mundane.
• Refreshing, if all else.

 

Actually, Disometric Guard is still pretty new at the time. It's status immunity for the team. That's immunity to all kinds of Eximus crap being tossed at you. That's good! It's a super convenient ability. That's why Triumph is the only thing worth considering a problem, because it's Disometric on steroids.

19 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I'm going to keep this blunt.

To cast "Tragedy", you must...

1. Cast Dark Verse twice prior. Dark Verse does 2 instances of Forced Slash Proc damage.
2. These Slash Procs have a base value of 1250 Slash. For comparasion? Shuriken does 500 and hits very few targets.
3. That is AT LEAST 4 instances of Slash for all targets you decide to hit.

Assuming enemies are not already near death from Slash procs- something that bypasses Armor- casting "Tragedy" will now proc ANOTHER 6.5k Damage Slash PRoc.
Of which ALSO gets another Multiplier of x3. Triple the value.

All at base Ability Strength. I don't even need my conditionals to hit x6.
Are you blind or simply just dense? Pick your poison.

'Shuriken does 500'

Shuriken is also not used for that very reason. A LOT of old frames have abilities that are so bad that they aren't worth the button-press. Dark Verse is not special. A lot of weapons will mow enemies down a lot faster than Dark Verse can. Kullervo with a quick 3-1, for example, does significantly more damage. (And sticks a colossal flat crit boost for a duration)

You are staring yourself blind on that multiplier, buddy. All those multipliers can make a very pretty damage figure, I'm sure, but post-armour? It does nothing. 

'But slash ignores armour!'

Yeah, but Tragedy doesn't. That's why it hits like a wet noodle at higher levels unless you really overkill your STR. 

24 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Not sure where you saw "75% Damage Reduction" specifically, so I'll skip that.

My apologies, it's 70% damage reduction, not 75%. 

25 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

So even if it's "30% of the original's damage"... that's still 30% extra firepower for EVERYONE, not just Dante!

Rhino roar is 50% at base in one button press with no question asked, and works with all builds. 

Also, it's not 30% extra firepower. That Noctua is not gonna keep up with better weapon picks. Its fire-rate won't keep up with rapidfire weapons, and slow-shooters are likely to kill the target before Wordwarden can hit it. 

28 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

+50% Status Chance may be less than some mods, but this applied instantly to ALL enemies that are within the Codex.

So do mods. And again, it's not just less than some mods, it's less than half a mod, unless it's additive. You get 60% off the element/status chance mods.

29 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

may I also point out that DARK VERSE and TRAGEDY exist. Already fueling the quasar that is the damage output from that!

Dark Verse isn't affected by it.

30 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Protea is strong, yes. Not "radially nuke the room" strong though.

Both of them are frontal cone based. 

But where Dante drops three casts and 100 energy to snapshot kill enemies that got hit by all four strikes of the two Dark Verses, Protea presses one button to put down an autonomous turret that fully controls its space for an extended period of time. 

Something came around the corner after you started casting? Protea's turret will wreck it. Dante has to reboot his entire cast sequence.

32 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Kullervo and Gyre both have something similar, their high offenses are offset with lower defenses.

• Yes, they are VERY strong. Without a doubt... but if a player screws up? It hits them especially hard.
• Kullervo, who needs to be ready for when his Overguard breaks-- as he as NO Shields to back him up.
• Gyre has no direct way of stopping enemies if they are immune to stuns and get too close.

 

Kullervo is plenty tanky with Adaptation and the occasional 2 cast. Gyre's extensive area control makes it almost impossible for anything to threaten her, but swap Coil Horizon out for Pillage and she's unstoppable with her overshields AND she gets armour strip, at which point her damage becomes astronomical.

33 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Vauban? Really? The glorified singularity?

• Look, I've TRIED Vauban outside of his Vortex. In real-time combat when you're not spamming Vortex to trivialize things?
• He's not only frailer than most would like, but his damage is not too great either.
• Flechette Orbs are his best bet, but they're not perfect. Otherwise, maybe Photon Strike.
• Bastille doesn't exist, so long as Vortex is stapled to it. Trust me, there would be SO much opened up for actual fun usage if it wasn't.

 

Oof, you don't know Vauban well, do you?

I mean, you're complaining about him being squishy, and then you toss 1K bonus armour and armour strip in the trash. I actually avoid his Vortex. Bastille + Flechette becomes a meat grinder all its own and can lock down a massive area extremely effectively. 

35 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

If we wanna go further? Revenant can be extremely durable, but outside of that? His offenses can be lacking.

• Reave is very powerful with it's % of Max Health thing, but it's most effective on Thralls. Something he'll have trouble upkeeping if not careful.
• Plus, most only care for his Mesmer Skin anyway. I have used him in clever ways before, so it's not impossible to enjoy him without it!

 

I did not bring up Revenant and I don't see why he's relevant.

36 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

... how about we make him NOT boring to begin with? You can do that, y'know. It's not illegal!

Sure, you can.

But not with nerfs.

[OneOmniverse]

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

• 50k Overguard on the drop of a hat. Actively regenerates when ally or user gets a kill.
  • For those wondering, neither Styanax nor Frost gain the regeneration property of this.
  • Nor do they get the effect without a target. They have to be ACTIVELY in combat.
  • Dante does not.
  • As far as Rhino, Kullervo, etc. are concerned? It only affects themselves.
• Radial Expedite Suffering with Forced Slash. Boosted with a bigger multiplier too.
• Summons that are not affected by map geometry, invincible and distract enemy AI. Makes enemies take more Status Effects.
• A passive buff that grants all players a slightly weaker copy of his Exalted. Fires on enemy taking damage.
• Passive grants +50% Status Chance on any enemy scanned within the Codex. Exalted auto-scans.
• A subsume that grants large forced Slash in a large cone of vision.

I think the better question is "how did they think this was okay?"
But sure, nerfs only hurt the game I guess.

Next you're gonna tell me Styanax is 100% useless because you have to touch the ground every few minutes.
Completely ignoring that his 1 can do the same funny it did prior to the """""nerf""""" just fine.

... but hey, short-sighted fun is all that matters right?
Who cares about the people who want to play the game when you're going, get your fix now!
Disgusting.

Yup! It's a shame too.

I find Styanax is a great Warframe outside of just the 4th Ability.

• His 1 can pull in groups super quickly and is very spammable. I even use it as movement tech on some occasions!
• His 2 is one of the best Armor Strips. Opening enemies to Finishers, removing both Armor and Shields alike, healing the user in the process... it has a lot!
• His 3 is an aggro pull that grants Energy to his squad. It's also great because it grants Shields on kill, allowing more frenzied playstyles IF the user can upkeep it!
• His 4 locks him in to fire a large barrage. Nothing too fancy, but gets the job done.
• Hell, even his passive is nice. More Critical Chance with current Shields? Yes please!

But since people can't use """the funny""" (that would've gotten stale quickly anyway), people think he's dead.
It's incredible how arbitrary and fickle players are here.
Humans are fickle by nature, but calling a Warframe dead because they fixed an obvious bug?
Crazy people, it's no wonder the game is an unbalanced mess-- they keep catering to people like OP who just want big numbers at ALL costs.

Dante being nerfed won't kill him. He's still stupidly strong, he just needs a number tweak to encourage actually TRYING to use his kit.

Who cares people just wanna have fun nerfing things doesn’t equate to fun.

[Waeleto]

I need to point this out, since powercreep has been brought A LOT in this thread you have to understand that warframe is built upon powercreep, DE knows this and embraces it

The issue with Dante is not how powerful he is but how disruptive he is because of how overguard functions (same can be applied to frost/styanax), If we're going by powercreep mainly then the entire game is gonna be nerfed.