Dante need something to limit the his overguard generation (especially the team gain) to maintain challenge

[0_The_F00l]

10 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Not just me, that is the reason ppl call him a caster frame and that is why its not a dumb concept is pretty different. if YOU play it like any other wf by using noctua as a regular slash weapon that is you, its fine either way but you do get why ppl say he is a caster.

yah you keep failing to see the difference.

I NEVER said i cant play all those frames, you are just assuming in a desperate attempt to discredit what i am saying based on "you are not as good" and its extremely weak argument. i can play all those frames but Dante gameplay is a lot different. so stop assuming stuff and going off about some superiority complex, wf is an easy game playing any frame is pretty easy once you understand the basics, if you take a new frame that can play in a different way and you decide to play him the same as any warframe with a weapon that part is on you! and your lack of creativity.

You keep saying people (ppl if you want to search where you mentioned it) call him a caster , people call other frames as casters too and play him accordingly , why are you unable to acknowledge that ? 

It's not a new playstyle , it's existed for quite some time now ,

And I find the concept dumb cause the exact same definition can be put on many frames irrespective of the archetype , it's all about how you build for it.

So let's do this , you show me your archtypical gameplay , and let me see if I can replicate it with another frame.

Edited April 4 by 0_The_F00l

[Nero.DMC]

18 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You keep saying people (ppl if you want to search where you mentioned it) call him a caster , people call other frames as casters too and play him accordingly , why are you unable to acknowledge that ? 

Literally me a few post ago:

Quote

i have a  hard time thinking about any frame getting even close to what dante does (as a caster archetype not as a overall wf), some wattered down versions of caster sure, but dante feels like they cranked it up to 11 and i love it

If you read that and concluded i dont know other frames are considered casters its on you again, not me, I even said why i consider Dante different is not like unique but it is exagerated hence the "cranked it up to 11"

Quote

And I find the concept dumb cause the exact same definition can be put on many frames irrespective of the archetype , it's all about how you build for it.

lets make it easy wich of these are considered caster frames:
Revenant, Inaros, Ember, Khora, Titania, Rhino, Nyx, Wisp, Harrow and you can add whoever you want, you can also skip them if you feel like you dont know them nuf.

If you think all of them are casters then i think we are done here... if you can at least recognize that there is such a thing as a caster archetype that not every frame fits in it we can move foward to try to get to an understanding.

27 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So let's do this , you show me your archtypical gameplay , and let me see if I can replicate it with another frame.

cant RN but when i get home i can create a video

[0_The_F00l]

59 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Literally me a few post ago:

If you read that and concluded i dont know other frames are considered casters its on you again, not me, I even said why i consider Dante different is not like unique but it is exagerated hence the "cranked it up to 11"

Exagerrated , yeah I can agree with that sentiment. 

59 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

lets make it easy wich of these are considered caster frames:

Revenant, Inaros, Ember, Khora, Titania, Rhino, Nyx, Wisp, Harrow and you can add whoever you want, you can also skip them if you feel like you dont know them nuf.

Lets see now, assuming we are talking default kit with no helminth ability swap , most of these are not what I have already mentioned , and I already did say there are many that can be considered casters but tend to be limited by level as there is a cap to the damage they can output after which some abilities tend to fall off. There are also nuances to it that need to be considered of what type of caster you are considering and for what purpose. That's one of their reasons I consider "caster frame" as a dumb concept if that's all you say , you need to expand with more details.

Revenant with enough strength can kill all enthralled enemies in a cast of reave irrespective of level and the danse can kill most fodder in star chart. He will depend on weapons later on , so full caster for star chart,half casting tank later on.

Inaros , with the recent rework paired with some shards can fully strip Armor but thats relevant usually later on , augments can boost some effects but not as effective without weapons , would consider more of a debuffing tank now , with situational casting not a full caster with some summoner potential.

Ember , with the abilities to remove Armor ,have DR and do a lot of consistent fire damage can be a full caster (more effective with some augments than others) but better as a debuff.

Khora needs a stat stick , so that's already depending on weapons , if you ignore that little fact you can keep spamming abilities and get through a very large portion of the game simply via casting. If you dont ignore the stat stick you have a CC half caster.

Titania , again has exalted weapons so if you don't subscribe to wizards with guns , she is more of a mobility frame with some questionable support abilities and some reasonable CC , situational caster for most of the game with minor summons.

Rhino , an excellent all round frame , great weapon platform and survival capacity for most of the game , Players tend to forget he has a long hard CC in stomp as well. Half caster for CC , survival and buffing.

Nyx , excellent frame if you don't need to kill anything , more of a debuff and CC than anything else even though she has some situational survival and damage boosts. Can be a full caster if you have the patience for mind control summon but better as CC and debuff.

Wisp has the potential to be a full caster and can go quite far in the star chart , I am curious on how she will perform now that corrosive can fully strip Armor , will need to check on that in higher levels. Full caster with the whole kit , CC , debuff , buff ,support , mobility and damage potential for majority of the game.

Harrow , the picture of support , survival and buff , a very specialised half caster that really wants good (or any) weapon to be effective, better in a squad but needs a playstyle that is very active.

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

If you think all of them are casters then i think we are done here... if you can at least recognize that there is such a thing as a caster archetype that not every frame fits in it we can move foward to try to get to an understanding.

Caster is too broad and needs to be narrowed is my opinion for it to be an archetype , until then it's just a playstyle choice.

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

cant RN but when i get home i can create a video

I will look forward to it , but may take me some time to respond suitably as I will be away for a few days.

[Vermillion-Code]

I love how you casual players get everything ruined. "Challenge"? Have you seen what all the other frames can do? Gloom? Pillage? Kullervo? Inaros? Frost with augment? Voruna?

But sure, all your crying got Dante gutted. So glad we have that "Difficulty" back now!

[Nero.DMC]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Lets see now, assuming we are talking default kit with no helminth ability swap , most of these are not what I have already mentioned , and I already did say there are many that can be considered casters but tend to be limited by level as there is a cap to the damage they can output after which some abilities tend to fall off. There are also nuances to it that need to be considered of what type of caster you are considering and for what purpose. That's one of their reasons I consider "caster frame" as a dumb concept if that's all you say , you need to expand with more details.

Revenant with enough strength can kill all enthralled enemies in a cast of reave irrespective of level and the danse can kill most fodder in star chart. He will depend on weapons later on , so full caster for star chart,half casting tank later on.

Inaros , with the recent rework paired with some shards can fully strip Armor but thats relevant usually later on , augments can boost some effects but not as effective without weapons , would consider more of a debuffing tank now , with situational casting not a full caster with some summoner potential.

Ember , with the abilities to remove Armor ,have DR and do a lot of consistent fire damage can be a full caster (more effective with some augments than others) but better as a debuff.

Khora needs a stat stick , so that's already depending on weapons , if you ignore that little fact you can keep spamming abilities and get through a very large portion of the game simply via casting. If you dont ignore the stat stick you have a CC half caster.

Titania , again has exalted weapons so if you don't subscribe to wizards with guns , she is more of a mobility frame with some questionable support abilities and some reasonable CC , situational caster for most of the game with minor summons.

Rhino , an excellent all round frame , great weapon platform and survival capacity for most of the game , Players tend to forget he has a long hard CC in stomp as well. Half caster for CC , survival and buffing.

Nyx , excellent frame if you don't need to kill anything , more of a debuff and CC than anything else even though she has some situational survival and damage boosts. Can be a full caster if you have the patience for mind control summon but better as CC and debuff.

Wisp has the potential to be a full caster and can go quite far in the star chart , I am curious on how she will perform now that corrosive can fully strip Armor , will need to check on that in higher levels. Full caster with the whole kit , CC , debuff , buff ,support , mobility and damage potential for majority of the game.

Harrow , the picture of support , survival and buff , a very specialised half caster that really wants good (or any) weapon to be effective, better in a squad but needs a playstyle that is very active.

Caster is too broad and needs to be narrowed is my opinion for it to be an archetype , until then it's just a playstyle choice.

I will look forward to it , but may take me some time to respond suitably as I will be away for a few days.

great answer, now we can find common ground or simply define a difference between what is caster or not to each of us.

Revenant for me is never a caster, everything in his base kit is too cumbersome and unreliable to consider him a caster, while he can kill any level of enemy with either viral + enthrall or enthrall alone depending strengh he will never go around casting, he needs to spread his enthrall/viral before nuking enemies even with Roar subsumed and to get to any level of strengh that would let you kill enemies with just roar (a more "caster like" way of killing enemies) would leave you with very little room for area or any practical way of making him a caster, his ult is  a toogle so not exactly what i consider casting, revenant would be a very very badly designed caster if you want to call him that but mostly i would say no he is not a caster. First thing that comes to mind with revenant is a Tank not a caster

Inaros is just not a caster for me, he cast abilities to armor strip but he dont play as a caster at all, he cast abilities but he is not a caster for me, i think i see now why you dislike the label if you go super into it you could play him as a pseudo support caster stripping armor but still a very poor one, i would say also no for Inaros. First thing that comes to mind with Inaros is also a Tank not a caster

Agree on Ember, she is what i consider a caster frame

agree on Khora as well, she can be a kinda ability spammer with her whip stat stick or not as prerequisite is not that relevant. when i think about Khora i can only think about loot xD

half agree on Titania, but i would say a plain no, she is not a caster she uses her exalted weapon and even tho she has to cast her abilities to get the speeeeed her game plan is shoot shoot not cast cast. First thing that comes to mind with Titania is Speed and shooting not a caster

Rhino i would say no, the reason you gave for being a caster is what i would consider normal abilities, for Rhino to be a caster more of his gameplan would need to revolve around casting and he ccing around and using his armor is just upkeep/CC neither give me the "caster" vibe. as with the other tanks Rhino fits much better the archetype of tank than caster

Nyx probably no aswell same reasoning as Rhino, she fits the role of a CCer more than a caster and thats how i would categorize her

Wisp is a buffer, she will not spend time casting much, put her flowers down and she wont be using more abilities for a long time

Harrow: "survival and buff" is the perfect description i would consider him a mini caster as best but first thing that comes to mind is survival and buff as you said.

 

i think you are shoehorning warframes into the caster archetype, in all the non casters one you describe them by their most prominent characteristics first (and i agree on all of them) to then shoehorn some of them into the caster role but there is no need of that, caster is someone like Ember or Dante where the first thing that comes to mind is frames that use their abilities a lot to function and play

 

1 hour ago, Vermillion-Code said:

I love how you casual players get everything ruined. "Challenge"? Have you seen what all the other frames can do? Gloom? Pillage? Kullervo? Inaros? Frost with augment? Voruna?

But sure, all your crying got Dante gutted. So glad we have that "Difficulty" back now!

i went into a long SP disruption mision yesterday, 2 dantes 1 kulervo 1 Styanax:
Healing done: Styanax by far was the most healing done like not even close to the 2 dantes,

Damage done, Kulervo runing laps around both the dantes
styanax damage was between the 2 dantes, pretty similar.

people are crying b/c they are dumb af XD

[tigerdrsk]

On 2024-03-31 at 3:40 PM, kerozen666 said:

i'm also someone with disabilities, which is one of the reason why i've been a very long time inaros main (since 2016), so i get that. However, consider the very ingenius trick to how sty's generation gets balanced. styanax can generate the same amount of overguard as Dante, but for intrepid stand to generate, sty need to hit enemies. that point is where the magic is. lower enemies will dies faster, which mean they will provide a proportional amount of overguard to their level. that overguard will always help, will be enhenced by grouping to increase output, but will never be too much to make the mission utterly trivial. That's the kind of thing i wish to see on dante. Otherwise, he's able to just produce late sp level amount of overguard right on E prime

So because of how you play you feel threatened how others play with a newer frame? There has to be a middle ground with this. It's nice you played from 2016, but that's almost 8 years ago now. How many different players play warframe now? With so many frames there are, it was refreshing to see so many use a user friendly frame and have fun with. If you feel steel path would be too easy then they can tweak that in different ways. Honestly as a whole more frames should get buffed in ways to match dante so people can also enjoy steel path and try new things for it. Nerfing only forces people to a handful of frames and gates gameplay. Sorry but with so many frames now that's just not feasible mentality. I'd rather a new frame had more power so I can survive steel path to learn it. Not get left in the dust because of a select few are pulling the say on all frames.

[---HattoriIga---]

The guy opens a topic to talk about nothing. nonsense wanting to nerf overguard my god 
what's happening to this community. 🤣

[Roble_Viejo]

Okay Dante has been patched... He is worse but still a problem LMAO

DE completely missed the main issue : Dante's Overguard regeneration to
allies is MANDATORY to his kit, so he negates HP builds just by playing


 

[kerozen666]

6 minutes ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Okay Dante has been patched... He is worse but still a problem LMAO

DE completely missed the main issue : Dante's Overguard regeneration to
allies is MANDATORY to his kit, so he negates HP builds just by playing


 

half missed. part of the issue is that he was providing way more than frost and sty could, making them straight up obsolete on that part. that point was adressded (although, not in the best way), but yes, there is still the build cancelling aspect of overguard, but that needs coding

[Zeow31]

il y a 33 minutes, kerozen666 a dit :

half missed. part of the issue is that he was providing way more than frost and sty could, making them straight up obsolete on that part. that point was adressded (although, not in the best way), but yes, there is still the build cancelling aspect of overguard, but that needs coding

Adressed by making him useless ? Don't mind me while I go make infinite overguard with Sty at the press of a button. One more to add to the unplayed pile but hey, he might get a rework in 5 years if we're lucky.

[Nero.DMC]

55 minutes ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Okay Dante has been patched... He is worse but still a problem LMAO

DE completely missed the main issue : Dante's Overguard regeneration to
allies is MANDATORY to his kit, so he negates HP builds just by playing


 

well they solved the issue, now no one wants to play with dante, i mean they want to but its crap

[Zavenosk]

I've been using Dante for a buncha steel path and netracell stuff since the update.  Overguard issue is same as it ever was.  Its more hostile to new players now, since casting twice as much will bludgeon you if you haven't a good tactic for managing Dante's energy economy; otherwise there's no meaningful change. 

Edited April 5 by Zavenosk

[Waeleto]

Just now, Sir-Lorkhan said:

Styanax is that you that gives 30k overguard?

 

[0_The_F00l]

9 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

great answer, now we can find common ground or simply define a difference between what is caster or not to each of us.

Revenant for me is never a caster, everything in his base kit is too cumbersome and unreliable to consider him a caster, while he can kill any level of enemy with either viral + enthrall or enthrall alone depending strengh he will never go around casting, he needs to spread his enthrall/viral before nuking enemies even with Roar subsumed and to get to any level of strengh that would let you kill enemies with just roar (a more "caster like" way of killing enemies) would leave you with very little room for area or any practical way of making him a caster, his ult is  a toogle so not exactly what i consider casting, revenant would be a very very badly designed caster if you want to call him that but mostly i would say no he is not a caster. First thing that comes to mind with revenant is a Tank not a caster

Inaros is just not a caster for me, he cast abilities to armor strip but he dont play as a caster at all, he cast abilities but he is not a caster for me, i think i see now why you dislike the label if you go super into it you could play him as a pseudo support caster stripping armor but still a very poor one, i would say also no for Inaros. First thing that comes to mind with Inaros is also a Tank not a caster

Agree on Ember, she is what i consider a caster frame

agree on Khora as well, she can be a kinda ability spammer with her whip stat stick or not as prerequisite is not that relevant. when i think about Khora i can only think about loot xD

half agree on Titania, but i would say a plain no, she is not a caster she uses her exalted weapon and even tho she has to cast her abilities to get the speeeeed her game plan is shoot shoot not cast cast. First thing that comes to mind with Titania is Speed and shooting not a caster

Rhino i would say no, the reason you gave for being a caster is what i would consider normal abilities, for Rhino to be a caster more of his gameplan would need to revolve around casting and he ccing around and using his armor is just upkeep/CC neither give me the "caster" vibe. as with the other tanks Rhino fits much better the archetype of tank than caster

Nyx probably no aswell same reasoning as Rhino, she fits the role of a CCer more than a caster and thats how i would categorize her

Wisp is a buffer, she will not spend time casting much, put her flowers down and she wont be using more abilities for a long time

Harrow: "survival and buff" is the perfect description i would consider him a mini caster as best but first thing that comes to mind is survival and buff as you said.

 

i think you are shoehorning warframes into the caster archetype, in all the non casters one you describe them by their most prominent characteristics first (and i agree on all of them) to then shoehorn some of them into the caster role but there is no need of that, caster is someone like Ember or Dante where the first thing that comes to mind is frames that use their abilities a lot to function and play

Considering the changes now applied to Dante this topic is kinda moot (and you probably won't be able to show me the video of your playstyle now) , but i would like to continue this discussion about casters.

As I have already highlighted ,i classify frames not just as "caster" or "non caster" but by their roles with additional descriptors , every frame has abilities but not all are equally impactful.

Outside of the role descriptors (tank , support , buff  , debuff, survival, damage etc.) it also matters how the abilities affect the game world including but not limited to allies , enemies , weapons and area along with how essential or necessary it is for the frame to use the abilities to meet the criteria of that role.

A full caster depends on most (if not all) abilities to function in their category and affects the game world primarily through their abilities. External factors (weapons / allies / enemy types) have little impact to their playstyle.

A half caster gets enhanced by their abilities but doesn't need all their abilities to function well in their category. External factors have a greater impact to their playstyle.

Lets take inaros and revenant for examples ,

Inaros doesn't need his abilities to function as a tank but using them improves his effectiveness as a tank, he can use mods and arcanes and pets to compensate for any lack of using abilities. Hence he is a half caster for tanking purpose.

Revenant on the other hand is dead in the water if he cannot cast his abilities , mesmer skin existing or not defines his capability to tank damage hence he is a full caster for tanking purpose.

So to make it simpler , can you compensate for not using abilities by other means ? If yes then you are a half caster , if no then you are a full caster. Again , this is not a catch all term and specific descriptors need to be added.

I think what you are looking for is a damage full caster or ability nuke as a description when explaining your playstyle. Simply going "caster" is lacking and uninformative .