[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[ShaloomHD]

1 minute ago, DeadS1lence said:

Well, that was disappointing to watch. I personally would rather have the range reduced and LoS removed than keep that mess around.

no removing the base damage is the best has its stops nukes on low levels and his 4 does nothing without his 3 on high levels 

[DeadlyDullahan]

2 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

By the way, I have had a refund ticket open for 5 days with no response.

Yep I've been hearing about similar situation with others in my circle.
Apparently it's okay for DE to have a reactionary response but when we have a reactionary response and want refunds then nah they're gonna gorilla grip our money down to the last second. I'm hoping the reason it's taking so long is due to the volume of refunds being asked for and not them intentionally making the process difficult.

[tartcactus]

Who puts something new and fun into a game and then suckks all the fun out of it? Oh, right, DE, that's who.

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 minutes ago, DeadlyDullahan said:

Yep I've been hearing about similar situation with others in my circle.
Apparently it's okay for DE to have a reactionary response but when we have a reactionary response and want refunds then nah they're gonna gorilla grip our money down to the last second. I'm hoping the reason it's taking so long is due to the volume of refunds being asked for and not them intentionally making the process difficult.

Did you ask Support or Steam for the refund (Or is this buying Dante with Plat)

It's more than likely the volume of refunds being asked for and not them intentionally making the process difficult, since remember, there are ALOT of people playing this game lol

[DeadlyDullahan]

4 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Did you ask Support or Steam for the refund (Or is this buying Dante with Plat)

It's more than likely the volume of refunds being asked for and not them intentionally making the process difficult, since remember, there are ALOT of people playing this game lol

Yea I definitely believe it's the volume of refunds, and was specifically talking about people refunding their Tennocon tickets with DE- I didn't purchase Dante so I thankfully don't have to deal with any refund mess.

[Hodric]

I've stopped playing since the infamous hotfix. Having watched the stream, and having seen some staff member temper about the topic, I'm still not feeling like playing. Again, I feel disappointed because of the fun-factor removal more than the damage output decrease (regardless wether it has been mitigated by the current hotfix philosophy).

Hope for the -range, no LoS resolution. That would give me some faith back in the whole game design department for the forseeable future.

In the meanwhile, thanks for having accompanied me through the pandemic lockdown, Warframe.

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 minute ago, DeadlyDullahan said:

Yea I definitely believe it's the volume of refunds, and was specifically talking about people refunding their Tennocon tickets with DE- I didn't purchase Dante so I thankfully don't have to deal with any refund mess.

Can you refund a ticket from Tennocon, since it's not a physical ticket, just something you print out?

If you can I'd love to see a stat number of how many did

[DeadlyDullahan]

1 minute ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Can you refund a ticket from Tennocon, since it's not a physical ticket, just something you print out?

If you can I'd love to see a stat number of how many did

I believe you can, think it has to be done through the distributor. Sadly I don't have any overall stats on how many people have actually refunded up to this point, I'm just aware of 3 close friends who were going together that all requested refunds for their tickets and that a few others in their shared group were doing the same. They were already on the fence about going to Tennocon this year so I guess the additional drama this close to the event was just the last straw for them.
Whether they get their money back or not who knows, they'll likely get it back through one means or another so.

[sh0shin]

3 hours ago, sh0shin said:

Did they outright call him "dominant"? I swear they were leaning toward "OP/automates play" due to Overguard and Tragedy.

Regardless, I'll say it again: Revenant has broken all 3 of these at various times and in various ways.

• OP/automates: Mesmer Skin/Shield = godmode, as noted by DE. Full immunity to CC and damage + invulnerability in between stacks. Viral stacks + Enthrall = 1-shot any enemy.
• Dominant: Revenant Prime by himself is most used frame of 2023*
• Disruptive: Mesmer Shield with Vex/HA/Rage is the most noticeable, though Thrall Pact buff requires Thralls to not die and this can cause issues with enemy aggro, therefore KPM and enemy spawns, e.g., spawning the next wave, which would require players to work together to NOT kill enemies. A niche situation, but can be true nonetheless.

*NOTE: a combined ~5.5% usage with normal + Prime -- technically, Volt is the most used at 7.26% with both forms. Wukong/Prime is at about 6.8%, Excalibur + Umbra (+ Prime (0.03%)) makes up for ~6.6%. 

Are any of these reasons to nerf Revenant? No, probably not, unless there is a tweak to Mesmer that makes the game more interactive and fixes issues with on-hit abilities/buffs. Revenant is also... boring, and his main use is to bypass the game's difficulty modifiers, to trivialize content like any kind of endurance run (though I like to spam Reave to go zoom zoom as a Gauss main myself :P). He's the easiest frame to use for level cap besides invis frames.

Let's look at another popular frame: Wisp/Prime (~5.1% usage in 2023). She is both DPS and support, akin to Dante.

• OP/automates: Motes give you all the buffs you could ever want, trivializing the star chart and base SP, as well as pretty much every mission type. Shock + HP + move speed = invulnerable team. Fire rate/attack speed = DPS buff to the whole team. Add Breach Surge DPS to Motes buffs, and Wisp is a demon of a weapons platform. Wisp herself is invisible in the air and invulnerable after phase-shifting to her illusion, both of which can be spammed ad nauseum.
• Dominant: top 5 used frame.
• Disruptive: Shock motes can slow down defense (not mobile defense) missions, trigger Spy mission conditions. Haste mote theoretically could ruin Internal Bleeding/Hemorrhage builds. Again, a weaker pillar, but technically can and will occur.

Does any of this mean Wisp should be nerfed? Definitely not! The mote buffs aren't game-changing enough to be cast into irrelevance nor are the other abilities so insane as to be touched, especially after Breach Surge was finally correctly nerfed (not in my opinion, but per DE changes) to not work on Eximus, and the damage "fix" before that.

So, then, what is the nerfing philosophy at play? The internal logic of these decisions will baffle me until they explain it further. I'm mostly over the changes, and my opinions have been beaten to a pulp at this point. It's the principle of the thing that is now getting to me. I hope DE can clarify and I look forward to it if so.

Well, to answer my own question: the philosophy at play is basically "we did not mean to ship something with this big of an AoE without LoS" which is kind of bull.

You've had Xaku, which you mentioned in the Devshort, for over 4 years now is it? 25m, non-LoS basic nuke (best for looting, really). And you knew that normal Expedite Suffering is a hard LoS check too.

*And* you said the issue you'd be focusing on was his Overguard. Lol. Well good to know, thanks. Guess I'll stop paying close attention to this game again.

[tartcactus]

Just watched the devshort. I have zero confidence that DE will pull back the Loss of Sight debacle. They cherry picked the chat points that supported their viewpoint and talked about fixes for Chroma, Inaros and Nidus. Reb kept saying "If we had been more clear about the changes, no e of the backlash would have happened". No. The next time you launch a new frame, cripple the frame and launch it crippled. That way, nobody spends platinum on it and nobody plays it beyond MR fodder.

[DeadlyDullahan]

10 minutes ago, sh0shin said:

Well, to answer my own question: the philosophy at play is basically "we did not mean to ship something with this big of an AoE without LoS" which is kind of bull.

You've had Xaku, which you mentioned in the Devshort, for over 4 years now is it? 25m, non-LoS basic nuke (best for looting, really). And you knew that normal Expedite Suffering is a hard LoS check too.

*And* you said the issue you'd be focusing on was his Overguard. Lol. Well good to know, thanks. Guess I'll stop paying close attention to this game again.

I almost audibly laughed when I heard them say that because how do you accidentally ship something out that you didn't intend to unless you're openly admitting to having poor quality assurance standards and a lack of checks to prevent something like that from happening in the first place. They really shot themselves in the foot saying something like that.

Edited April 9 by DeadlyDullahan

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, sh0shin said:

You've had Xaku, which you mentioned in the Devshort, for over 4 years now is it? 25m, non-LoS basic nuke (best for looting, really).

Vast Untime has a LoS check for damaging enemies, just not for breaking objects.

[ABlindGuyPlays]

Not sure if it's too late or not for feedback but while the changes to overguard and rage/adrenaline sound nice I don't see how it solves the problem. Overguard breaks before shields and shields recharge scott free while overguard is in play. So frames like Oberon (I know, Mr Irrelevant) get nothing anyway.

Nezha's range nerf ... I can get wanting to reduce the range from 'EVERYWHERE' so reduce the nerf to like... 20% instead of 50%? Given how area works if you wanted to halve the initial area you'd want something like 20-30% anyway. 

Dante's bird behavior honestly sounds great. Mostly because he might be ABLE to nuke on his own but: just ot get his 4 takes two button presses (and energy) and that 'nuke' doesn't care where the procs come from. Meaning the team gets to lay on the damage and dante just provides the cherry on top. Isn't that the whole point of team play?

[Nero.DMC]

5 minutes ago, DeadlyDullahan said:

I almost audibly laughed when I heard them say that because how do you accidentally ship something out that you didn't intend to unless you're openly admitting to having poor quality assurance standards and a lack of checks to prevent something like that from happening in the first place. They really shot themselves in the foot saying something like that.

I mean the facts spoke by themselves their quality assurance is non existant, i took dante less than a minute in simulacrum to know he was broken beyond any possible doubt, time they clearly did not take even tho they repeatedly lie to us "we wont rush the nerfs" they said with a straight face.

[LordOfKenpo]

27 minutes ago, sh0shin said:

Well, to answer my own question: the philosophy at play is basically "we did not mean to ship something with this big of an AoE without LoS" which is kind of bull.

They clearly meant to ship it as an AOE. If you look at the animation the energy very clearly radiates outward in all directions

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

2 hours ago, Stelthmastr said:

No, he doesn't. You may need to look at your build. You don't need rivens on your weapons for Dante's Tragedy nukes.

I Didn't say he needed it for his nuke build and yes he falls of after 500 

[ABlindGuyPlays]

37 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

They clearly meant to ship it as an AOE. If you look at the animation the energy very clearly radiates outward in all directions

I choose to be less than charitable at this point. They wanted those week one sales. Who cares that it got nerfed into the ground. They already got theirs and can pitch it as an 'honest mistake.'

[Waeleto]

I don't think if DE goes the "no los lower range" route it'll be 20-25m guys this is exactly what happened before the dante nerfs were revealed, people said it'll be no big deal and they WERE a big deal, if they nerf his range it's gonna be gutted 

[Nero.DMC]

14 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

I don't think if DE goes the "no los lower range" route it'll be 20-25m guys this is exactly what happened before the dante nerfs were revealed, people said it'll be no big deal and they WERE a big deal, if they nerf his range it's gonna be gutted 

well its a loose loose situation anyway, we can stay with the known crappy changes or hope they do something decent, we can absolutely end up worse than now tho and that would be awful

[Hodor_Roe]

If the problem with it having range and no LoS check is that it itself does damage, remove the damage? Let it do what it's supposed to do and pop statuses like it did on launch. If you really feel that the flat damage is necesary, make it only work on enemies that have statuses on them.

[PontifexPrimus1]

I am severely disappointed by the attitude they showed in the stream - no regrets, not understanding why people are upset, just flippantly treating it as "mistakes were made". There are people here who takes this seriously, who really have to think twice about investing into a game, and they just blew it off like it was no big deal.

Like we should not expect them to care, or listen to the tenno writing pages and pages in the forums; they just tell us to get over it without even bothering to even put it in these words. As if it is so obvious to them we're in the wrong, and they're completely in the right. A real Ballas-like attitude.

[tartcactus]

DE promised Loss of Sight fixes when they nuked Khora's Accumulating Whipclaw and here we are how many years later? Same hollow promise. The only "fix" for Loss of Sight is to shoot it in the head.

[LordOfKenpo]

1 minute ago, Hodor_Roe said:

If the problem with it having range and no LoS check is that it itself does damage, remove the damage? Let it do what it's supposed to do and pop statuses like it did on launch. If you really feel that the flat damage is necesary, make it only work on enemies that have statuses on them.

Or only enemies that are marked by his abilities ie dark verge, pageflight, etc in which case range no longer matters at all

This also could make wordwarden more useful if they also mark enemies.

[tartcactus]

Given how lame their "tuning" has been, combined with how many things they are touching to try to keep Loss of Sight in place, expect multiple broken warfrmes coming out of this one. Chime in at any time, DE.

[Gaxxian]

REMOVE BASE DMG FROM TRAGEDY THEN! AND REMOVE LOS!!!