Nezha's Divine Retribution augment post-hotfix and his state in the game compared to other similar Warframes abilities.

[Voltage]

On 2024-04-06 at 1:15 AM, Noirshock said:

Also, I forgot to mention how Divine Spears don't have any effect on Eximus, Bosses, Demolishers, etc. 

Spears are meant to keep low-risk enemies at bay while we deal with the real threat (and get some juicy Health Orbs that keep us on track thanks to Chakram).

This isn't entirely correct. Divine Spears/Retribution will affect Eximus for about ~1 second, passing on the status effects and expedite effect from the augment. Divine Spears may be for CC and to get the effects of Health Orbs, but Divine Retribution transforms it into something that kills all enemies when built properly, including Eximus. 

I'm a bit skeptical on the the sweet spot for a range percentage, but I can say that the status spread and multiplier is still quite powerful for his kit, even after a 50% range nerf. I just don't know if the game needs to keep trying to out-perform itself with new skills/mechanics on a game filled with mostly trash mobs. Maybe a 25% reduction in range is a more fair compromise though. Maybe they can keep the 50% range decrease, but allow the augment to benefit from Archon Mods properly.

Edited April 7 by Voltage

[ElRighto]

3 часа назад, crazywolfpusher сказал:

None of those frames you listed can Nuke steelpath enemies on a 50m radius through walls.

This is true. 

But let's see, how often is this needed? 

 

Does it help in spy, rescue? 

It’s not a fact, there are eximuses walking there.  This may cause alert. 

 

Will this help in interception? 

It’s unlikely, here Saryn and Equinox have more usefulness and range.  After all, it is the nullifier or eximus that will stand at the console.  Octavia is basically a god. 

 

Will this be indispensable in defense?

Perhaps the first 5-10 waves.  And then again Saryn, Equinox, Frost and company.  Octavia will again solo reach five times the farthest. 

 

Is this so indispensable for exterminate? 

Enemies appear in small groups in the long intestine.  Xaku, Gyre, Dagath, Kullervo simply go from point A to point B and leave a void behind them.  There is already a competition to see who can run out faster. 

 

And so on, there are many game modes.

 

Failure?  No meaning at all.  Where does this matter? 

Survival solo for the first 15 minutes.  Is one mode worth such a severe nerf?  No, it's not fair.

 

How many of these builds have we seen while playing online?  Are they that much of a nuisance?  Is this situation worse than Mirage with Simulor?  We don't even know yet.

Edited April 7 by ElRighto
Warframes misspell correctspelled.

[ElRighto]

1 час назад, Voltage сказал:

Divine Spears/Retribution will affect Eximus for about ~1 second, passing on the status effects and expedite effect from the augment.

Very strange.  In my tests, a spear appears under the eximus, does ridiculous damage and... That's it.  No statuses, damage or kills while there is OG.

[DimkaTsv]

14 минут назад, ElRighto сказал:

Very strange.  In my tests, a spear appears under the eximus, does ridiculous damage and... That's it.  No statuses, damage or kills while there is OG.

I guess it just transfers statuses, then instantly expires as CC cannot be applied, and explodes all transferred DoTs in one instance? (Isn't it 1.5x of total DoT damage or something?) 
Also... Wait... Really? Nezha augment is able to transfer EXISTING statuses? I thought it was only for statuses you inflict AFTER you impale enemies. Not before and after.
Aka based on what said, you just prime enemies, then use S4 and every enemy shares their statuses with every other speared enemy in area? WTF? Now i DEFINITELY know why it was nerfed, if it worked like this. Because radius scaling becomes actually quadratic with number of mobs affected and potentially can cause status amount issues (which is why status spread bond on robotics were nerfed to have cap of statuses). It is potentially even more broken than Melee Influence, even if it could not tripledip in faction damage.

Edited April 7 by DimkaTsv

[lumine99]

17 hours ago, WildstarsCCB said:

FOA, thanks for your detailed analysis. But in my opinion, the nerf on range is totally nonsense.

On one hand, the DIVINE SPEARS itself is still not a pure damage skill, it can be ignored at all by overguard. This fact definitely divide it with other strong Tier-0 nuke in history, it's far from a simple "press button and everybody fk up" type. Besides, what really need to be adjusted is how we deal damage to the enemy affected by DIVINE SPEARS, rather than what specific range the DIVINE SPEARS affect.

Basically, we can see the new DIVINE SPEARS as a round-version Expedite Suffering mixed with CC. And if you use some weapons that can cause a large amount of Slash, Fire or Toxic status effect at a long distance and in a short period of time（for example, Glaive Prime），coupled with the build that deliberately reduces the power duration, you will get a Very OP AOE. All you need to do is standing at ground, press 4 , deal damage and wait for the 4 finished, for which we may call it "unhealthy". 

To solve this problem, what should be nerfed is the efficiency of long-range weapons or glaives in causing status effect on enemies affected by DIVINE SPEARS (of course, this adjustment should be limited to the NEZHA user himself, otherwise it will cause trouble to NEZHA's teammates). Therefore, NEZHA players should consider whether to use weapons with a closer attack range but higher damage, or weapons cause lower damage for DIVINE SPEARS but could reach the enemy easier.  This adds more interest to the power and gives players space to think strategically.

Perhaps further adjusting the range of DIVINE SPEARS will satisfy DE and many players. But I personally think that the Augment of DIVINE SPEARS actually provides everyone with a better direction. The current environment of Warframe is ready to accept more and better AOE. We don’t really need to headshot hundreds or thousands of enemies one by one, but the choice of clearing the entire map with one click is obviously unwise either. DIVINE SPEARS for me (pre-nerf version of course) is just a good "middle" option.

 

This is something that I totally agree with. Let divine spears range stay, but tweak the damage spreading. Pre hotfix I thought that having LOS for status spread was the best fix. You keep the utility of stopping enemies, while you keep the status spread unable to pierce through walls. But after hotfix I thought that lowering the status spread damage and lowering the base range by to 60-70% instead of the current 50% is better.

Another thought that might be better is if we could slow down the Divine Spears nuke a bit so that it is more in line with spore-miasma, and ledgermain damage ramp up.

[ElRighto]

33 минуты назад, lumine99 сказал:

Another thought that might be better is if we could slow down the Divine Spears nuke a bit so that it is more in line with spore-miasma, and ledgermain damage ramp up.

This is a good decision!

Why not remove the nuke altogether.  Let the statuses diverge as usual.  Enemies take damage per tick. 

 

DE are first adding multipliers and instant damage. Then they fight with themselves and reduce the radius, which makes the ability unusable (unless we install absurd mods and worsen other characteristics).

1 час назад, DimkaTsv сказал:

Nezha augment is able to transfer EXISTING statuses? I thought it was only for statuses you inflict AFTER you impale enemies. Not before and after.

I didn't notice this behavior.  Will need to test.  Can someone watch this?  I'm currently playing on the slipper Steam Deck and can't confirm for sure.  If so, then this is a bug and should be fixed. But this is not the reason for such large changes in the radius.

[Mordewraithe]

ye this nerf has annoyed me more than the Dante nerf, i invested a lot of resources into Nezha to try out everything with it, only for them to nerf it into the ground.

As probably quite a lot did, full Shards into him, getting a 2nd Dante to use his helminth on him. I bet DE will not be refunding us our resources lost. 

As u say a 50% radius reduction is a 75% nerf. Never been so insulted by DE. Im currently out of the game since the nerf, sulking at the moment, but i cant help it, im really mad. But also that means they lost 4 accounts of support from me for now. Im close to just uninstalling for now. Ill be back as i love the game, but i cant bring myself to log in and play as im so mad.

I think for me it was the lies from them in the 15min short saying that they dont do nerfs, and was only going to do a look at the numbers and change where necessary, and then a few days later, probably the biggest nerf of all time.

And i dont know if anyone else noticed but Nezha's nerf in the patch notes was buried half way down the page in amongst the hotfixes, almost like they wanted to hide it. 

Edited April 7 by Mordewraithe

[Simeoff]

1 hour ago, Mordewraithe said:

ye this nerf has annoyed me more than the Dante nerf, i invested a lot of resources into Nezha to try out everything with it, only for them to nerf it into the ground.

As probably quite a lot did, full Shards into him, getting a 2nd Dante to use his helminth on him. I bet DE will not be refunding us our resources lost. 

As u say a 50% radius reduction is a 75% nerf. Never been so insulted by DE. Im currently out of the game since the nerf, sulking at the moment, but i cant help it, im really mad. But also that means they lost 4 accounts of support from me for now. Im close to just uninstalling for now. Ill be back as i love the game, but i cant bring myself to log in and play as im so mad.

I think for me it was the lies from them in the 15min short saying that they dont do nerfs, and was only going to do a look at the numbers and change where necessary, and then a few days later, probably the biggest nerf of all time.

And i dont know if anyone else noticed but Nezha's nerf in the patch notes was buried half way down the page in amongst the hotfixes, almost like they wanted to hide it. 

They aren't even addressing it, despite it having a huge outcry too

ofc the Dante backlash is bigger, but Nezha's nerf  IS making a lot of noise in the community too

[Ogger]

28 minutes ago, Simeoff said:

They aren't even addressing it, despite it having a huge outcry too

ofc the Dante backlash is bigger, but Nezha's nerf  IS making a lot of noise in the community too

That's what annoys me too.

Will the nerf stay the way it is? Ok then I can remove all the shards from my nezha. 

Will they tweak it (as they honestly should) ? Great then I can invest even more into my nezha to make him worthwhile.

But there is complete radio silence. As far as I have seen DE never even said if they are evaluating it.

If this augment is left as is and forgotten, so will nezha with his <2% usage of players (even though he is really cool and fun to play)

[_Anise_]

Thanks for the great and details write up hopefully DE will take notice

On 2024-04-06 at 6:15 AM, Noirshock said:

So my proposal is reduce the penalty from 50% to 25%.  It's a middle ground that I think it will make everybody happy.

I was throwing around a few ideas myself, instead if putting a limitation on how far the spears will go they could maybe instead have a fixed range on how far the status spreads?

e.g (example)

Quote

Divine Spears Augment: When a speared enemy suffers from a Status Effect, the Status Effect spreads to all speared enemies within 35 meters. Spear explosions apply 1.5x Status Damage

alternatively (and I like this a LOT more) they could do away with range limitations entirely and just give it the Dante treatment and make spears obey line of sight when this mod is installed.

[sunderthefirmament]

6 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

alternatively (and I like this a LOT more) they could do away with range limitations entirely and just give it the Dante treatment and make spears obey line of sight when this mod is installed.

I posted some other ideas in another thread:

• increase energy cost of ability
• decrease damage of spread statuses
• make statuses only spread to speared & haloed targets (hit by the 2)
• add a lengthier casting animation and make it charge to spread farther (unlikely, as this would take art resources).

 

The conditional status spread on haloed targets would likely achieve something similar to a LoS restriction.

[_Anise_]

16 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I posted some other ideas in another thread

I did see Rebecca say they ultimately didn't want to change what the ability is doing, so I dont see them adding extra steps and requireing halo+spears and it's why they put a negative range instead of changing how anything else worked (like damage, status caps etc)

Edited April 7 by _Anise_

[sunderthefirmament]

Just now, _Anise_ said:

I did see Rebecca say they ultimately didn't want to change what the ability is doing, so I dont see them adding extra steps and requireing halo+spears and it's why they put a negative range instead of changing how it worked

I would argue another reason why they just knee-jerked a massive range nerf was that it was easy to program.  It strikes me as poorly tested and low effort, honestly.

[_Anise_]

2 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It strikes me as poorly tested and low effort, honestly.

I agree, this thread perfectly explains how huge a nerf this is, a 75% reduction in area seems heavy handed

Edited April 7 by _Anise_

[Ogger]

40 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I did see Rebecca say they ultimately didn't want to change what the ability is doing, so I dont see them adding extra steps and requireing halo+spears and it's why they put a negative range instead of changing how anything else worked (like damage, status caps etc)

Where? Her last visit on the forum was last month so before the nezha nerf.

[_Anise_]

Just now, OggerAZ said:

Where

I think it was one of the devshort videos on youtube

[Ogger]

18 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I think it was one of the devshort videos on youtube

the last devshort was before the nerfs.

[ElRighto]

1 час назад, _Anise_ сказал:

I did see Rebecca say they ultimately didn't want to change what the ability is doing,

It all depends on the wording, of course.  But it seems to me that these augments change abilities or gameplay quite a lot. Some add other abilities to an existing one, some replace characteristics so that the ability changes greatly.

Loyal Merulina

Enraged

Hallowed Reckoning

Explosive Legerdemain

Concentrated Arrow

Blending Talons

Resonating Quake

Rumbled

 

This is from what I remembered.

 

1 час назад, sunderthefirmament сказал:

make statuses only spread to speared & haloed targets (hit by the 2)

This sounds like an augment for the second ability.  I agree, it would make the game more interesting, but it would require too much work.

[_Anise_]

1 hour ago, OggerAZ said:

the last devshort was before the nerfs.

maybe it was a content creator reacting to a post they saw where she said that? may have been megan on prime time? I watch so many videos sometimes it's hard to keep track but if I would have thought I had to cite my sources I would have written it down, if someone can find where I might have seen that it would be appreciated ^-~

1 hour ago, ElRighto said:

seems to me that these augments change abilities

yes the augment changed the ability, they didn't want to change basically what the augment was doing.

Edited April 7 by _Anise_

[ElRighto]

22 минуты назад, _Anise_ сказал:

they didn't want to change basically what the augment was doing

Understood. 

At first I thought that they wanted the augments to not change the mechanics of the ability too much. 

Okay, if they don’t want to change the augment, then at least let them figure out the numbers in it.  I wouldn’t want to immediately transfer mod from the syndicate to the trash bin.

[WillRunForFood]

Came to say I didn't play this frame for six years. I used him as MR fodder as I just didn't enjoy the skills. With the augment pre nerf I was considering swapping  from an Octavia main. Post nerf NeZha is right back on the shelf. Like they said it didn't even work on Eximus but was super fun on trash mobs. Great article and DE if you'd please revert the nerf it would be greatly appreciated! I had a lot of fun wit the frame!

[ElRighto]

1 час назад, WillRunForFood сказал:

I had a lot of fun wit the frame!

Fun!  Exactly! 

This is a PVE game with hundreds of mechanics, abilities and attributes.  There are things that have remained almost untouched for 11 years.  There is no point in reducing everything to an imaginary balance. 

As long as everyone is having fun and no one is bothering anyone, there is no point in setting such terrible restrictions.

[DimkaTsv]

2 часа назад, WillRunForFood сказал:

I just didn't enjoy the skills

2 часа назад, WillRunForFood сказал:

considering swapping  from an Octavia main

Sorry... I couldn't stop myself. No offence.

Octavia main considered Nezha skills boring? Main of frame which is so OP that people don't play for how boring gameplay for it is most of the time? 
Man, people do percept things very differently sometimes. 

[ElRighto]

40 минут назад, DimkaTsv сказал:

frame which is so OP that people don't play for how boring gameplay for it is most of the time? 

But he definitely doesn’t skip leg day.

Everyone has their own sense of fun.  Someone is playing cookie clicker.  Someone in GTA 3 enters a code on a tank and shoots in all directions.  Someone gets high when the drawn bad men get hit on the hat and cannot fight back.

And all this is not a reason to reduce the radius of the augment by 50%!

Edited April 7 by ElRighto
Correcting word.

[ElRighto]

В 06.04.2024 в 08:15, Noirshock сказал:

I feel this will keep Divine Spears in line with other abilities and will make a fair penalty for those who want to build for extreme range

It is possible that an ability with an augment will be on par with many abilities without an augment. 

If things continue like this, then opponents who are susceptible to CC will only be encountered in the first few minutes of the game.