The problem aren't the actual abilities that you nerf

[0_The_F00l]

The problem is that specific abilities take advantage of slash procs that are a broken game mechanic.

This is with regards to both Dante and Nezha augment.

I will not talk too much about dante , i think the writting is on the proverbial wall for that one on LoS , 

Nezha on the other hand getting a reduction to its range , it's probably the first augment that actively reduces a base stat when consuming a slot

(Also is it just me or Feels like someone just switched the two changes for laughs and giggles ,reduced range on tragedy and los on nezha would have made more sense, but kinda besides the point.)

Anyway , back to the topic at hand. 

Tragedy is amazing cause it accumulates the DoT and multipliers it in a single burst of damage , 

Divine retribution is great cause it causes any status (including DoT) to spread to other enemies effectively multiplying damage done.

Both of these are not broken by themselves in my opinion , but because players have access to bleed procs on demand (either weapons like scythes  or abilities like dark verse )  this creates a very specific scenario where players can bypass the important enemy defenses.

For those that are unaware , bleed (slash procs) does a type of damage ( resembling true damage) as DoT based on weapon stats before resistances/Armor and not the actual initial damage done , there are very few sources of true damage in the game. The bleed damage damage bypasses Armor (and shield gate though that has been debated if I remember right) , and most tough enemies get their EHP thanks to Armor.

So it's one of the few damage types that actually does the same damage irrespective of enemy scaling.

So if DE really wants to reign in the balance and keep a fair amount of variety , instead of having kneejerk reactions which result in bad fallout with the community , they need to relook at the different damage types and remove the "dominance " of slash procs , maybe have other damage types to have the ability to do true damage or have the slash procs calculate based on damage done not weapon stats.

Edited April 7 by 0_The_F00l

[KitMeHarder]

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

bleed (slash procs) do true damage as DoT based on weapon stats before resistances/Armor and not the actual initial damage done , there are very few sources of true damage in the game other than slash. True damage bypasses Armor (and shield gate if I remember right)

Slash procs bypass armor and resistances, that's it. It does not bypass...

• Shields
• Shield gate (only last 0.05 seconds anyway)
• Damage reduction
• Damage attenuation

Slash procs also aren't really true damage. True damage bypasses shields too (Energy Vampire, Snow Glode, etc...).

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

remove the "dominance " of slash procs

I don't agree with your take, slash is far from dominate. What's dominate is dealing with armor, slash is just the generalist pick. And once there's no more armor, slash is worse than other elements. Any source of slash proc would rather the enemy just be full stripped 99% of the time.

There's a reason almost every endurance video you see nowadays uses green shards.

[0_The_F00l]

51 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Slash procs bypass armor and resistances, that's it. It does not bypass...

• Shields
• Shield gate (only last 0.05 seconds anyway)
• Damage reduction
• Damage attenuation

Slash procs also aren't really true damage. True damage bypasses shields too (Energy Vampire, Snow Glode, etc...).

You may want to check that again , while there is a "cinematic " damage term , there is no real reference to it in game , true damage is what is the closest actual damage reference (there are some very minor differences between the two i admit) i never said it bypasses shields.

But I get your point , will update the OP with some more clarity.

55 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I don't agree with your take, slash is far from dominate. What's dominate is dealing with armor, slash is just the generalist pick. And once there's no more armor, slash is worse than other elements. Any source of slash proc would rather the enemy just be full stripped 99% of the time.

There's a reason almost every endurance video you see nowadays uses green shards.

I don't know if you are gaslighting or genuinely believe what you are saying , slash procs (not slash damage ) remains one of the most effective ways to deal with high level enemies irrespective of the faction you are facing.

Yes , fully stripping Armor/shields can be as effective if you can do so with your build as it does exactly what slash procs were doing before. Doing damage directly to health.

[Gaxxian]

hace 9 horas, 0_The_F00l dijo:

Nezha on the other hand getting a reduction to its range , it's probably the first augment that actively reduces a base stat when consuming a slot

There is Partitioned Mallet too. But ofc, that one has a much more sensible range nerf, since we all know that Octavia is a bad frame that absolutely needs any source of power available D:

Edited April 7 by Gaxxian

[0_The_F00l]

Just now, Gaxxian said:

There is Partitioned Mallet too. But ofc, that have a much more sensible range nerf, since we all know that Octavia is a bad frame that absolutely needs any source of power available D:

You can cast it twice , so it's somewhat fair as you can lock down two choke points. No such benefit for Nezha.

[Gaxxian]

hace 3 minutos, 0_The_F00l dijo:

You can cast it twice , so it's somewhat fair as you can lock down two choke points. No such benefit for Nezha.

What? No, you cast it twice in the same place... One in the ground and another on top of your Resonator... which you guide in top of the Mallet casted into the ground. Since they add multiplicative damage bonuses, and they stack, you completely break the dmg mechanics and any enemy just explode themselves when they shot at the Resonator. Meanwhile, Octavia just need to teabag her way to levelcap.

Ofc there is no such benefit for Nezha. That nerf was hastily done and too harsh.

Edited April 7 by Gaxxian

[0_The_F00l]

8 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

What? No, you cast it twice in the same place... One in the ground and another on top of your Resonator... which you guide in top of the Mallet casted into the ground. Since they add multiplicative damage bonuses, and they stack, you completely break the dmg mechanics and any enemy just explode themselves when they shot at the Resonator. Meanwhile, Octavia just need to teabag her way to levelcap.

Ofc there is no such benefit for Nezha. That nerf was hastily done and too harsh.

Not worth the effort (and the extra augment) to arrange that setup , also has the chance to screw things a bit due to the way resonator works.

[Eneitilyn]

Did you seriously offer full blown elemental rework because of 2 Warframes and a bunch of their augments?? I am honestly getting anxiety for no reason this patch just because how Digital Extremes has handled this patch completely 'violately' not like the players are any better giving complete disregard to dignity of the Warframe being used...

 

Has anyone actually 'tried making Chakam Nezha build ever since Divine Retribution dropped' ? Not a single person focuses on Nezha's entire kit as a whole and analyze it and show the unique aspects that gives Nezha the identity as a Warframe the reason we are losing this opportunity this augment's potential is because the Warframe has been stripped of its identity and dignity and regarded only as a "map nuking tool" and put on a scales against other Warframes that essentially accomplish the same goal but a bit less difficult to how Nezha was accomplishing it which is the entire reason this problem transpired!!!!!

 

This augment makes other warframes less relevant which is technically another reason for the nerf!! I was honestly gonna say good riddens let Dante go to hell obscurity and let Nezha back to hell only used by Rhino replacement Nezha mains  but then Dante changes were reconsidered and now I want to make a thread of my own...instead of letting these people just Equipping this "Augment" not the Warframe the Augment being equipped in order to press a button and win against a bunch of enemies even tho your entire loadout is essentially there only to melt enemies out of existence!!! Now I am angry!!

Edited April 7 by Eneitilyn

[KitMeHarder]

31 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I don't know if you are gaslighting or genuinely believe what you are saying , slash procs (not slash damage ) remains one of the most effective ways to deal with high level enemies irrespective of the faction you are facing.

Yes , fully stripping Armor/shields can be as effective if you can do so with your build as it does exactly what slash procs were doing before.

The slash procs are the only source doing high damage though. All that raw damage, at those other DoTs, all the damage multipliers vs flesh you have, etc... are doing very little comparatively. Not to mention, it takes 3 seconds to get the same value out of your slash proc as you would have gotten from just the raw base damage of the gun/source.

Armor stripping is not "as effective", it's significantly more effective. Slash procs are just mechanically easier to utilize and build for. They are the generalist solution to armor, but if you remove the armor, there's not much reason to build for slash procs.

[_Anise_]

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Nezha on the other hand getting a reduction to its range , it's probably the first augment that actively reduces a base stat when consuming a slot

the investment required in insane ! -50% range -60% strength + 4 mod slots just to gain a usable 25 meters range.

[StrawberrySparrow]

Am I going crazy or did they delete that massive thread they merged a bunch of feedback into? I can't find it and I was just looking at it around an hour or two ago

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Eneitilyn said:

Did you seriously offer full blown elemental rework because of 2 Warframes and a bunch of their augments?? 

I have done that long before now and multiple times actually , I am just highlighting what the core reason for the observed imbalance and map clearing capability really depends on.

1 hour ago, Eneitilyn said:

I am honestly getting anxiety for no reason this patch just because how Digital Extremes has handled this patch completely 'violately' not like the players are any better giving complete disregard to dignity of the Warframe being used...

What ?

1 hour ago, Eneitilyn said:

Has anyone actually 'tried making Chakam Nezha build ever since Divine Retribution dropped' ? Not a single person focuses on Nezha's entire kit as a whole and analyze it and show the unique aspects that gives Nezha the identity as a Warframe the reason we are losing this opportunity this augment's potential is because the Warframe has been stripped of its identity and dignity and regarded only as a "map nuking tool" and put on a scales against other Warframes that essentially accomplish the same goal but a bit less difficult to how Nezha was accomplishing it which is the entire reason this problem transpired!!!!!

Um ,I use both blazing chakram (better than the fire walker build) and warding halo builds (seperate loadouts for different purposes) , I was also looking forward to a third loadout for status spread build , which I probably won't make now as it's not worth the cost.

Sure some augments bring all the meta chasers out of whatever sunless sands they were buried under , but that doesn't mean the new options need to be buried too. Especially cause the main problem is universal and not about the augment itself.

1 hour ago, Eneitilyn said:

This augment makes other warframes less relevant which is technically another reason for the nerf!! I was honestly gonna say good riddens let Dante go to hell obscurity and let Nezha back to hell only used by Rhino replacement Nezha mains  but then Dante changes were reconsidered and now I want to make a thread of my own...instead of letting these people just Equipping this "Augment" not the Warframe the Augment being equipped in order to press a button and win against a bunch of enemies even tho your entire loadout is essentially there only to melt enemies out of existence!!! Now I am angry!!

WTF ? Control your anger and try to have a coherent discussion.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

The slash procs are the only source doing high damage though. All that raw damage, at those other DoTs, all the damage multipliers vs flesh you have, etc... are doing very little comparatively. Not to mention, it takes 3 seconds to get the same value out of your slash proc as you would have gotten from just the raw base damage of the gun/source.

Yes , that's the point I am making I am not sure if there is some confusion with that . Slash procs (bleed) not slash damage is what does all the heavy lifting.

And no, you get the first slash proc after 1 second and while it is 35% of the weapon damage  (without elemental /ips modding ) that can still be significantly higher than the direct gun/source as it will be reduced by Armor.

So if the base damage of a weapon is 100 and procs a slash bleed effect,

And enemy has Armor that does 80% DR ,

You do 20 damage with the gun directly to the enemy,

After a second you do 35 damage thats already higher than the base gun damage.

This is of course simplified and there are multiple things that can make the bleed even better and higher Armor will make the direct damage even lower.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Armor stripping is not "as effective", it's significantly more effective. Slash procs are just mechanically easier to utilize and build for. They are the generalist solution to armor, but if you remove the armor, there's not much reason to build for slash procs.

If you can reliably and quickly apply corrosive procs , using multiple green archon shards or use a frame / ability/ effect that fully strips Armor you take away the DR that is provided by Armor and it CAN be as effective depending on how much time it takes to do that vs just procing a slash and moving on.

But not all frames (and players) have that luxury , so yes , slash procs are more generalist and easily accessible either via forced procs on certain melee or via building for better probability (hemorrhage /hunter munitions/ internal bleeding) , or via specific frame abilities ,some do this better than others of course.

The various resistances also need to be factored once the Armor is removed. But in most scenarios an enemy devoid of Armor will die much faster than one with.

I am currently focusing on why the two frames in question are performing the way they do. We can analyse the effective KPM between slash and Armor removal loadouts if you wish ina  different topic .

So limiting to the topic at hand , Do you disagree that slash procs are the main reason they are able to nuke rooms at reasonably higher levels ?

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

the investment required in insane ! -50% range -60% strength + 4 mod slots just to gain a usable 25 meters range.

Yeah , atleast for me it's not worth it. I will probably just use the warding or blazing builds as they feel more effective to me. Not the first ineffective or niche augment we have.

[(XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL]

No

[0_The_F00l]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL said:

No

Yes

[(NSW)warfare3376]

Fun fact slash is actually statistically the weakest scaling DoT in the game, the only reason it is considered as strong as it is is the fact that it bypasses armor. Slash ticks are only effected by base damage, crits and faction damage, wereas all the other DoTs have an additional way to increase the actual DoT damage such as heat and electric scaling with their respective elemental mods and gas/electric being able to head shot and scale with enemy group size(quadratic scaling).

But as mentioned since most of the toghest units in the game use armor as their main source of ehp slash will dominate for obvious reasons, its really not a problem with slash being too strong but rather enemy armor is the crux of the issue which has always been the real issue for the dominance of slash.