PC PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[(PSN)Epsilon_3579]

Hello DE I just wanted to say thank you so much for listening and giving us a levay on Nezha's augment. Deeply appreciated!! I know I don't speak for everyone and that many don't agree but at least for me the Los changes are great, a few more improvements are required but I leave that up to you and your capable team. Also, chroma changes, that came out of nowhere and I am glad it did, I just hope this may eventually lead to a chroma rework (Pablo I hope someday you will work your magic on him as well and I wish that day is soon). Looking forward to Protea Prime access and Jade!! 

[crazywolfpusher]

 

 

If anyone reading this can record a video testing Mag's Pull on simulacrum against a group of 20 enemies it would be helpful. 

Basically Pull enemies from different distances and angles and you'll see that some of them are stuck in place knocked down instead of being Pulled.

I'm 100% sure it wasn't like this before this patch.

 

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

13 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

No you are not you are suggesting something completely stupid, Hard caps are very very rare in warframe, there is no reason for hard caps for that ability much less 15-20 meters.. i think you might not understand what hard cap means, hard cap means the maximum posible range, if you think hard capping tragedy at 15-20 meters as a fine solution that is beyond stupid, you know how much area coverage you loose from current 50m (range modded to a hard cap of 20m?) its 86% less area covered, you surely  are not suggesting that...

reducing 5m from base range would be a area coverage nerf of 30% (after modding for range you would get 42m) wich is something okay... not hard capped tho, hard capped would be the dumbest thing ever.

You could ofc mod for a bit more range but you would be tanking other stats, wich makes a hard cap of 20 meters even worst considering you can now get around 84+ meters if you go full range, hard capping it has no reason to ever be even tought about.

between 5-7 meters base range reduction would be fine

Mostly I did it to show yet again that the reason you're objecting is the loss of performance, not the QOL. If it was about QOL and NOT performance, it wouldn't matter what the range was. And here you are, proving my point again.

You want a massive range nuke with no LOS checks, because that's what you've been arguing for this entire time. If it ISN'T a massive AOE nuke, then you don't want it. Just be honest, it'll save both of us so much more time the next time DE does something you don't like.

As to your post, how about a reduction to a base range of 15 meters? With a max range build, you'd get what, about 40 meters range or so? That's comparable to Nezha's augment, even.

7 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Yep, my new Dante's play style is using Inaros with Exec. I kill way more with less work, its more dynamic, it has no liability either, and all that without needing an overcomplicated build to manage energy... or nothing, really, since also im also way harder to kill without having to though about it at all.

Optionally, i change to my Dante's Valkyr strategy. Where i pick Valkyr and i just destroy everything on my path while being immortal.

Sounds like a skill issue. Have you tried playing Cookie Clicker? Alternatively, check my previous post, there's a video and a thread that might help you at the end.

 

Edited April 12 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[Gaxxian]

hace 7 minutos, Armadillidium_vulgare dijo:

As to your post, how about a reduction to a base range of 15 meters? With a max range build, you'd get what, about 40 meters range or so? That's comparable to Nezha's augment, even.

Why not half meter? I'm pretty sure that with max range you would be able to reach 15 meters. Plenty for a master skilled like you. Heck, the true and real Warframe players would have enough with 8m top at max Range.

hace 7 minutos, Armadillidium_vulgare dijo:

Sounds like a skill issue. Have you tried playing Cookie Clicker? Alternatively, check my previous post, there's a video and a thread that might help you at the end.

Oh no, i wouldnt dare to play Cookie Clicker... only real players like you could play WF and that one at the same time. I wouldnt be able to learn both games.

But ty by you good attitude for offering me you great video. Next time i would prefer to try your high horse, just to see how do you look everything from there, but its ok this way.

Edited April 12 by Gaxxian

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Cool though its nearly impossible to know what's within LoS in all directions since the game only gives LoS in 1 direction (the one you're facing). Still not great design, but it just means occasionally you'll get some extra damage/kills out of it. Ideally it just being an AOE would be better, but 360 degree ray tracing checks may explain why it slows downs some people's machines

Yeah. It's like Pillage but with better checks than that old mechanic and your life/energy doesnt depend on it. The people that have it impact their machine should probably consider clearing caches if they dont usually do so and likely also verify and optimize the game cache if they dont. Lots of slowdowns and hitches occur due to neglecting such. If that doesnt make it work better, keep reporting it like crazy.

20 hours ago, Siic07 said:

but that's what I'm talking about, not even the creators are putting Dante in Tier S anymore because of LOS, so it's going to continue the same meta of Octavia and Saryn that has lasted for years

But DE talks as if Dante is still one of the strongest and in the meta with LOS which is a lie.

Well no not really, you are saying they are some bar setting standard. They really just flock to whatever gets most views, in this case talking about the negative parts of Dante (even if they dont share the opinion in reality). Who do you think neon-god lemmings will view in a case with this much reee on the forums? The fellow giving the fair view or the one riding the same wagon as his lemmings?

And the funny thing is also that nothing actually changed with the LoS being added aside from the initial one that was massive bugged due to using an old system, Because everything still relied on the consistancy of Dark Verse to begin with. Not that is is just another LoS, but that it used the old crappy LoS checks from Dante's release day up until the most recent patch. People even pointed this out to those that placed the blame on Final Verse LoS (which used the new system after the first intial fix) as opposed to Dark Verse using the old still. Dark Verse was for instance the thing being blocked by Dante and several other things. People tried this by using toxin, heat or slash from other sources and then detonating using the same body/obstacle block angles, at which point those enemies previously not dying to Final Verse suddenly died, but when they went back to Dark Verse priming, those targets were left unharmed with with no statuses on them after detonation.

The odd part though is that none of those complaining noticed this earlier, as in between release and the first and second LoS version added to Final Verse Tragedy. Kinda odd imo, since all of a sudden people claimed they used to prime so much and then detonate but suddenly it wouldnt work. Hmm but it Dark Verse is so inconsistant to begin with, how did they no notice this during the first week? Which makes me think more and more that they never actually did high level content where they needed to make use of Dark Verse to kill, since in that case they would have noticed the same behavior since the same amount of targets would have gone unharmed.

20 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

no you are sadly not correct

I refered to it using the new system as a whole.

20 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

If the blue oval is an enemy and the red rectangles are obstacles, as long as your camera is pointing toward this particular enemy you are going to hit him, if this particular enemy is in your back then he wont get targeted because the 3 lines they are tracing are all obscured,

Yes, my point is your FoV wont alter how it interact with enemies in your back, since they arent rendered. Your image is also just assumptions, since none of us no neither the size of each of the 3 boxes, nor the size or "scan" pattern of the 3 rays. If the body is split in 3 joining boxes, your example for instance would result in hits, unless the ray only targets the very center, the very top and the very bottom, which I highly doubt considering how forgiving frontal LoS is, where any little visible rendered bit will count.

Of course, you might have gotten the image directly from DE, which I also doubt is the case.

20 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

LoS are not reducing its power it just make him more annoying to play

He was just as annoying before. Read my reply to the other quoted poster regarding which LoS was actually broken. Broken for a whole week prior to LoS was added to Tragedy, broken upon the Tragedy LoS fix the day after, and still broken all the way up to the most recent "OG" patch. How did you not notice and voice your concern regarding that if you relied on that skill in the first place? Could it be that you didnt and just used it so you could use Tragedy for its innate damage?

20 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Sadly never, people that constantly say incorrect stuff should be taken with skepticism but still you should listen and decide what they said based on what they said, not based on who they are.

if someone that lies a lot say something worthwhile you should not stop agreing with the correct thing they said nor dismiss everything they say as incorrect based on other comments.

So its perfectly fine to respond with skepticism, just not instantly dismiss everything based on mistakes they made

That just means that they may say something very incorrect and you need to be aware of how everything works in return in order to not fall for their inaccuracy. So if someone has gone and done #*!%ed it up several times regarding things you know, the moment they say something about a thing you dont know you should likely dismiss what they say regarding that thing, since you cant fact check it since you dont know.

20 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

It does, i tried my best explaining exactly why.

I mispoke when i said enclosed maps i wanted to say enclosed tiles, like those tiny spaces on corrupted ships or those small caves, they are present everywhere but most recent maps usually avoid that kind of stuff, but pick any of the old misions and chances are you will find a few.

I mean for the skill as a whole. A skill based on your FoV hits more based on your FoV setting. A 360 skill just uses two different checks but you arent hitting more in your back based on your FoV setting. You arent really hitting more in the front either, you just have a slightly wider reach for one hit check to be used instead of another. But since we dont know how forgiving the check in your back in compared to the frontal, we cant say how much more beneficial it is to squeeze out a few more degrees for the frontal check to be used.

Yep, I've used plenty of those narrow places on several different maps with Dante, be it locker rooms on Grineer and Corpus tiles or in the Void, I've had no issues, not even in the rooms with crystal trees and a turret right in the middle of them while facing out of a "basement" into the room outside. I'm still hitting things through pillars aswell that completely block what I physically see on my screen, both when it comes to side view and top view i.e hitting to the side of a pillar that connects to the floor and ceiling aswell as hitting over pillars that are only connected to the floor. No blocking either in narrow tunnels like those experienced on Corpus Ships, Asteroid Bases, Mars and in the Void.

19 hours ago, iSiawPrime said:

False, it's even been proven by some people already. LoS does NOT work the same on enemies on camera vs enemies off camera

I mean both use the same new system. Obviously your back will not target specific bodyparts as your FoV does, since it counts as not rendered enemies, so instead just treated as hitbox check, if a part of one of those boxes is in view it will be a hit.

19 hours ago, iSiawPrime said:

It does impact it by the aforementioned reason, it's also impacted by your screen resolution, so Switch & Mobile players will always hit less enemies than others lol

What I mean is you arent hitting more, since it is already 360. As opposed to a skill with no hard coded angle, where you hit based on what your FoV sees i.e Ember's 4 compared to Dark Verse, 25m FoV based targetting angle vs 25m 50 degree targetting angle.

[captn_Pat]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

And the funny thing is also that nothing actually changed with the LoS being added aside from the initial one that was massive bugged due to using an old system, Because everything still relied on the consistancy of Dark Verse to begin with.

Before the change after you hit tragedy every enemy got hit that was in that radius,(think Equinox) now it is very inconsistent still in whaterver the f it will hit. That 30 meter are now bogus, most tilesets are rather cramped and restrict you severely in how much your very costly combo can even scratch. How in the world is this hard to grasp. Its easily 50% less effective, you know, a small edjustment and totally fine /s

[Nero.DMC]

14 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Mostly I did it to show yet again that the reason you're objecting is the loss of performance, not the QOL. If it was about QOL and NOT performance, it wouldn't matter what the range was. And here you are, proving my point again.

You want a massive range nuke with no LOS checks, because that's what you've been arguing for this entire time. If it ISN'T a massive AOE nuke, then you don't want it. Just be honest, it'll save both of us so much more time the next time DE does something you don't like.

As to your post, how about a reduction to a base range of 15 meters? With a max range build, you'd get what, about 40 meters range or so? That's comparable to Nezha's augment, even.

No you are not, you are suggesting something extremely overexagerated, you are not suggesting a balance you are suggesting something so egregious it makes 0 sense... i am not arguing for performance BUT if your balance solution is so stupid overkill then ofc performance would matter... You are just proving you are not that smart tbh... 

Dude, i just want the ability to hit enemy's i already marked, the ability DO NOT NUKE anything that is not previously marked, funnily enough i would hit LESS enemies that i already hit if they just hit marked enemies wich is something i would be fine with... if they leave the area as a 5m hard cap or some other moronic suggestion you can come up with ofc no one would use Dante.

As to 15 meters is pretty small for an ability that requires 2 previous cast/marked enemy/etc, so it would be left as one of the weakest abilities in the game and probably not worth casting it, if they left it as 20-25 base that is fine, that leaves you around 35-40 meters with a decently modded range that does not completely tank your other stats.

in the end if the ability ends up with 35-40m range sensibly modded without LoS i would take that for sure.

 

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, captn_Pat said:

Before the change after you hit tragedy every enemy got hit that was in that radius,(think Equinox) now it is very inconsistent still in whaterver the f it will hit. That 30 meter are now bogus, most tilesets are rather cramped and restrict you severely in how much your very costly combo can even scratch. How in the world is this hard to grasp. Its easily 50% less effective, you know, a small edjustment and totally fine /s

Yes I'm fully aware. But people claim it isnt due to that damage people are upset of the LoS, they claim they are upset because it is now inconsistant at hitting primed targets, while at the same time not being aware that the inconsistancy was tied to Dark Verse since day 1 and for two whole weeks. It wouldnt have mattered if DE left Tragedy alone, since Dark Verse would have still be tied to inconsistant hit reg since it was implemented from release with the old LoS system.

Why were the people complaining about Tragedy consistancy not highlighting the lacking consistancy prior to the Tragedy change if their criteria was rooted in primed target detonation? It sounds more and more like those people actually just want the 50m+ lowbie nuke back. You'd expect they'd mention Dark Verse early on if their true intent was the inconsistancy of detonation damage.

Those "cramped" tiles were already restricted by the need of Dark Verse that hit less than Final Verse could detonate, leaving several targets practically untouched from day 1. And with the LoS added/fixed for Final Verse, Dark Verse was still the bottleneck until the most recent patch. Now both work and are consistant, even with LoS requirements, since both now use the new system.

[LordOfKenpo]

1 hour ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Have you tried adjusting your play style with him? 334 requires a bit more thought now, especially in enclosed spaces with lots of terrain that interrupts LOS. The larger rooms work better than trying it in tight corridors; if there's a big ass homunculus in the room, it should be fine if you can see them.

This is a game design issue if you can only make a frame a work on some tiles. There are tilesets that don't have good open space tiles or have very few which makes the frame feel bad to play. There is also a chance since maps are randomly generated that you just don't get any at which point the frame becomes mostly useless. Playability shouldn't be dependant on map, you should be able to play a frame on any map. At the worst case, if they are going to keep him LoS we should have lower energy costs on his abilities (or something like ember's 4 where its based on number of enemies hit) because right now it costs lots of energy and is inconsistent so when it fails you lose like 1/3 of your energy pool for no effect

[sh0shin]

bro is still comparing Mesa and Dante 🥶 🥶 🥶

like dude sure let's remove LoS from fckin guns lmao great argument totally the same as casting a slow spell over and over

 

and yes a stupid argument deserves to be called out with logical fallacies

[Nero.DMC]

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes I'm fully aware. But people claim it isnt due to that damage people are upset of the LoS, they claim they are upset because it is now inconsistant at hitting primed targets, while at the same time not being aware that the inconsistancy was tied to Dark Verse since day 1 and for two whole weeks. It wouldnt have mattered if DE left Tragedy alone, since Dark Verse would have still be tied to inconsistant hit reg since it was implemented from release with the old LoS system.

Why were the people complaining about Tragedy consistancy not highlighting the lacking consistancy prior to the Tragedy change if their criteria was rooted in primed target detonation? It sounds more and more like those people actually just want the 50m+ lowbie nuke back. You'd expect they'd mention Dark Verse early on if their true intent was the inconsistancy of detonation damage.

Those "cramped" tiles were already restricted by the need of Dark Verse that hit less than Final Verse could detonate, leaving several targets practically untouched from day 1. And with the LoS added/fixed for Final Verse, Dark Verse was still the bottleneck until the most recent patch. Now both work and are consistant, even with LoS requirements, since both now use the new system.

yah cramped tiles gameplay for dante was run marking enemies and then detonate since you always were restricted by dark verse LoS it was not like you could nuke tiles ahead, it was just that you could mark run mark run and detonate, now you have to mark mark detonate move a little mark mark detonate wich is annoying.

[sh0shin]

Yeah people are running Noctua builds because Tragedy just feels worse now.

[SneakyErvin]

15 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

yah cramped tiles gameplay for dante was run marking enemies and then detonate since you always were restricted by dark verse LoS it was not like you could nuke tiles ahead, it was just that you could mark run mark run and detonate, now you have to mark mark detonate move a little mark mark detonate wich is annoying.

But uhm why? I mean, why are you restricting yourself to cramped places even? When have those ever been good to stay at in the first place? I cant think of a single tileset in the game that requires me to ever stay at a cramped place. And if it is just high level and not endless SP, you can pretty much 33 and things will die as you move along, where you just need to stop for eximus units. When I do survival I dont tend to stay in a cramped area, since those are most often also very useless for spawn flow in general. 

And if you are searching for a better area, why are you killing in the first place. It will just result in more things spawning behind you as you go to where you want to. And when you are where you want to, it will likely not be cramped unless you like playing in those places. And when you are finaly there you will very likely have mobs ahead of you mostly.

[Karyst]

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

No you are not, you are suggesting something extremely overexagerated, you are not suggesting a balance you are suggesting something so egregious it makes 0 sense... i am not arguing for performance BUT if your balance solution is so stupid overkill then ofc performance would matter... You are just proving you are not that smart tbh... 

Dude, i just want the ability to hit enemy's i already marked, the ability DO NOT NUKE anything that is not previously marked, funnily enough i would hit LESS enemies that i already hit if they just hit marked enemies wich is something i would be fine with... if they leave the area as a 5m hard cap or some other moronic suggestion you can come up with ofc no one would use Dante.

As to 15 meters is pretty small for an ability that requires 2 previous cast/marked enemy/etc, so it would be left as one of the weakest abilities in the game and probably not worth casting it, if they left it as 20-25 base that is fine, that leaves you around 35-40 meters with a decently modded range that does not completely tank your other stats.

in the end if the ability ends up with 35-40m range sensibly modded without LoS i would take that for sure.

 

Dude, i just want the ability to hit enemy's i already marked, the ability DO NOT NUKE anything that is not previously marked,

So like enemies that Sevagoth marks with his 2? What do you know! That is exactly how Sevagoth has it right now. He marks enemies with his 2 and then his 1 blasts the marked enemies without Los check, how sensational!

[Gaxxian]

Btw DE, i remember that you said that Tragedy needs LoS because its the dmg AoE ability with more range... how do you classify Sleight of Hand then? as a support ability?

[Nero.DMC]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But uhm why? I mean, why are you restricting yourself to cramped places even? When have those ever been good to stay at in the first place? I cant think of a single tileset in the game that requires me to ever stay at a cramped place. And if it is just high level and not endless SP, you can pretty much 33 and things will die as you move along, where you just need to stop for eximus units. When I do survival I dont tend to stay in a cramped area, since those are most often also very useless for spawn flow in general. 

And if you are searching for a better area, why are you killing in the first place. It will just result in more things spawning behind you as you go to where you want to. And when you are where you want to, it will likely not be cramped unless you like playing in those places. And when you are finaly there you will very likely have mobs ahead of you mostly.

its not that you want to stay there, sometimes you just are there or need to be there for any reason, or you are walking to get to a point or whatever reason, also sometimes you are in more open spaces enemies just moved out of your LoS after being marked or you moved a bit to the left or you turned your camera the other way, there are several reason for this change to feel much much worse, while not a single one of them to justify this change as being for the better.

[Nero.DMC]

1 hour ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

You: "Dante is dead, he's terrible! He's MR fodder!"

Me: *Shows Dante performing perfectly fine in Elite Deep Archimedea, using his weakest ability.*

You: "LOL LMAO U JUST PROVED MY POINT! DANTE IS DEAD, HE'S TERRIBLE!"

...How do you live like this? I literally told you that you'd react this way, and then when you do EXACTLY as predicted you act like it's a gotcha?

There's a stream vod in that thread showcasing someone else playing Dante and doing perfectly fine as well, but of course you didn't watch any of that one, because why would you do anything that could possibly prove you wrong? I say again, how do you live like this? Does someone else do your breathing for you?

Dante feels worse to play there is no subjective opinion about this, you are trying to justify something that is pretty much not justificable but you went all in with your protection of DE for some reason, not that they need you to protect them from feedback... 
 

Playing him as a weapon platform has always been viable (same as any other frame) if you going to end up with all frames as weapon platforms might as well remove them... and keep 1 with skins... 

You have never tried to justify the changes anyway, not that you could, you can try the "balance" aproach but Dante is not any more balance than he was before the change, his power level is more or less the same as before wich is what really gets me, they feel like making him annoying is the same as reducing his power... its not, less people play him b/c he is annoying, that's all

 

[Karyst]

27 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Btw DE, i remember that you said that Tragedy needs LoS because its the dmg AoE ability with more range... how do you classify Sleight of Hand then? as a support ability?

It supports the player in removing the red triangles from the minimap.

[LordOfKenpo]

17 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Dante feels worse to play there is no subjective opinion about this, you are trying to justify something that is pretty much not justificable but you went all in with your protection of DE for some reason, not that they need you to protect them from feedback... 
 

Playing him as a weapon platform has always been viable (same as any other frame) if you going to end up with all frames as weapon platforms might as well remove them... and keep 1 with skins... 

You have never tried to justify the changes anyway, not that you could, you can try the "balance" aproach but Dante is not any more balance than he was before the change, his power level is more or less the same as before wich is what really gets me, they feel like making him annoying is the same as reducing his power... its not, less people play him b/c he is annoying, that's all

 

His power level hasn't really changed much (except maybe og but I expected that to get nerfed), but the versatility in play style has decreased significantly and consistency has also decreased which is why he feels worse

[Levanthan]

The damage vulnerability aspect of Qorvex' Containment Wall doesn't apply on targets immune to CC like overguarded enemies, acolytes, etc. This is very inconsistent with other applications of damage vulnerability and makes Qorvex unecessarily weaker than he already is. The damage vuln value is low at base already, but not working on high prio targets is an extra slap in the face.

[JohnSpaniard]

DE are laughing at us for our arguments. We should stop arguing here, and just expose the facts.

The facts are, DE sold us a fresh, different, funny to play warframe (at last). They got our money, and then they changed everything, the essence. 

In my country, that is prosecuted by law, when someone sells something with some features that, in the end, is different, in essence, from what you bought.

But the worst fact is, DE are not going to rectify. Cos rectify is for the wise and humble people.

So DE are proving us that they don't care about players or about how they like to play this game. They force us to play as they like. This is the saddest fact.

Edited April 12 by JohnSpaniard

[Gandalf_White]

3 hours ago, sh0shin said:

bro is still comparing Mesa and Dante 🥶 🥶 🥶

like dude sure let's remove LoS from fckin guns lmao great argument totally the same as casting a slow spell over and over

 

and yes a stupid argument deserves to be called out with logical fallacies

This gets even more hilarious when you know that Mesa's LoS is so much more lenient than Dante's. Enemies you have seen will still remain in your "LoS" for a few seconds even if they are behind a wall, meaning your Mesa will still hit them behind any walls, obstacles, column or any other crap that you see on a tight, cluttered map.

 

But hey, Mr. KnowItAll here says Mesa can't hit through walls.

Really showcases his lack of knowledge tbh...

Edited April 12 by Gandalf_White

[Tiltskillet]

28 minutes ago, Levanthan said:

The damage vulnerability aspect of Qorvex' Containment Wall doesn't apply on targets immune to CC like overguarded enemies, acolytes, etc. This is very inconsistent with other applications of damage vulnerability

I can't recall the results of all of them, but there are at least some others that are blocked or impeded by Overguard and often by other CC immunities.  Equinox Rage, Khora Strangledome, Gara Splinter Storm and Mass Vitrify, Nezha Chakram (because it doesn't affect OG hp), Nova Molecular Prime (because it only affects health hp), and Atlas Petrify resist reduction (if it counts as "vulnerability") all have problems.  The ones I recall for sure do work against Overguard are Caliban Sentient Wrath, Yareli Sea Snares, Sevagoth Reap, and Banshee Sonar.   So it's sort of a mess.

As far as Containment Walls goes though, yes please!  It really could use the help.   It's pretty funny that it doesn't work and Sea Snares does, considering how much more powerful the latter is anyway.

[tartcactus]

DE needs to be humbled. They need to be introduced to the realities of capitalism.

Revert Dante

[-4-lexatrop]

tThanks for the nerfs , keep doung what you doing and dont forget to make droplist om AD even worse , 
ty for the weekend credit booster.