PC PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[captn_Pat]

My recently formad hound has 3 times the kills of your dante, please stop trying to tell us his tragedy is fine....

I dont really care about his team buffs, i am still anoyed that his nuke has way too much restrictions (double line of sight, energy cost) and was much more fun when he released, is that so hard to understand?

[TheTundraTerror]

What still grinds my gears is how quick DE were to nerf Dante while Qorvex was abandoned 15 femtosecond after released with the very, very, very odd bug fix being released here and there. Seriously, why aren't you as quick to react when a Warframe is released, at best, in a middling state?

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

On the one hand, the fact that I called it, you read me calling it, and then proceeded to do EXACTLY what I was talking about is hilarious. On the other hand, it highlights the issue DE was addressing in adjusting Dante's LOS:

He is a support frame, not Saryn 2.0. Much of his kit focuses on buffs. He features a Tome exalted weapon specifically so he can take advantage of the new tome mods for buffing and supporting the squad. He generates almost troublesome amounts of overguard, takes aggro, and provides additional firepower on top of his healing! And yet... none of that matters because all you care about is how his nuke now requires some thought and the slightest sliver of attention paid to your positioning.

I think you've proven DE's point in nerfing him, all on your own. Maybe now that his nuke is dead and destroyed and all that hysterical hyperbole, you'll be able to lift your blinders and see what an incredible support frame he is.

Spoiler

But I'm calling it now: You won't.

 

[Gaxxian]

hace 3 horas, Armadillidium_vulgare dijo:

Dante is very strong, possibly even OP

Yeah, yeah. Im sure that with only an hour played with Dante, you already know better than others here.

Go to your cave again.

[Karyst]

8 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Dante is very strong, possibly even OP; he's absolutely one of the best support frames in the entire game. Hopefully DE will look at how Overguard interacts with DR abilities, because at the moment having a Dante on your squad makes DR by way of armor, abilities, and etc. pretty pointless since none of those work on OG.

The folks insisting that Dante is utterly ruined and trash-tier clearly haven't been playing with his full kit, or even paying attention to the fact he has six other abilities that are well worth using in addition to the nuke. If they didn't insist that the only worthwhile part of his kit was his non-LOS nuke, while ignoring all the rest of it... well. Dante is clearly a support frame, and not intended to be the second coming of Saryn. As is, he's got a good arsenal of buffs, and a strong nuke. Whining for more and insulting/attacking anyone who doesn't cater to your wants doesn't convince anyone to agree with you.

The people upset about the performance nerfs sorry, I mean the QOL nerfs aren't willing to be convinced that Dante is anything other than destroyed/ruined/dead/nuked from orbit/etc./etc. because it's hard to reason a person out of a position they weren't reasoned into in the first place. It doesn't matter how OP Dante was and still is, because even the slightest change from his previous version, the low-effort nuke, requires more thought and effort and planning on their part. It doesn't feel as good to play because now they have to work the slightest bit harder for a rush to their burned-out dopamine receptors.

Anyway, Dante is fine. No one who disagrees with that statement will ever be convinced of this, and they will never be satisfied with his current state. They will never stop complaining about it, until they try him again in a few months and discover that he's not as bad as their biases made them think he was, or maybe they'll watch their favorite community contributor talk about how awesome Dante is and decide that okay, he's alright. 

But they'll never stop to think that maybe, just maybe, in all their outrage and indignance at being forced to play the game, that they were wrong from the start.

 

Let us watch the Kengineers video about Dante then. 

 

5 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Yeah, yeah. Im sure that with only an hour played with Dante, you already know better than others here.

Go to your cave again.

And then imagine people who didn't play him before nerf.

 

3 hours ago, Karyst said:

And then imagine people who didn't play him before nerf.

It's also strange thing to do to classify frames, since that is largely not a thing after all the external sources of support available, too many to list here. If I mod Dante for PS and only use light verse then he is support but when I mod for the same PS and only use dark verse he is mage and if I comine the two he becomes another class?

[Quintinw]

1 hour ago, Karyst said:

Let us watch the Kengineers video about Dante then. 

Ken didn't do Dante justice honestly, in regards to builds.

it's either full-send on Noctua Exalted w/ Nourish or full-send Tragedy with either Nourish or Roar (Would still recommend Nourish though, since energy will be a problem without it).

Also has some misinformation with Wordwarden having Multishot and Fire Rate mods on a build he showcased, which have no effect.

[Karyst]

9 minutes ago, Quintinw said:

Ken didn't do Dante justice honestly, in regards to builds.

it's either full-send on Noctua Exalted w/ Nourish or full-send Tragedy with either Nourish or Roar (Would still recommend Nourish though, since energy will be a problem without it).

Also has some misinformation with Wordwarden having Multishot and Fire Rate mods on a build he showcased, which have no effect.

Thanks for pointing out misinformation, I only watched fee minutes from the initial gameplay and after I saw the inconsistency with marking enemies with his abilities that were right Infront of him, I stopped watching. Still, the way he modded suggests that that's the way the most people will mod unless we introduce another build that isn't reliant on nourish and roar. Perhaps there are such builds.

[tartcactus]

Dante is still nuked into the ground in spite of all claims to the contrary. 

Listen to your community, not just your apologists.

[tartcactus]

Upon release, Dante was Warframe strong. Post Loss of Sight, Dante is skunk strong. (He stinks). Specifically his Tragedy. In its current state it can be likened to eating soup with a fork.

Please give us back our spoon.

Edited April 16 by tartcactus

[hamsterdance]

Quote

• Fixed being able to awaken multiple Void Angels at once after multiple teammates have fallen and need to be revived. 

Any word on addressing issues where only one angel spawns when multiple teammates have fallen? Had an issue in Assassination where 3x teammates died, but there was only one angel.

[Nero.DMC]

8 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Yeah, yeah. Im sure that with only an hour played with Dante, you already know better than others here.

Go to your cave again.

Dont feed armodillo he just want attention, just ignore his rambling, he really really wants attention and he will say the most stupid stuff in order to get some.

 

[Karyst]

41 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Dont feed armodillo he just want attention, just ignore his rambling, he really really wants attention and he will say the most stupid stuff in order to get some.

 

Not all the attention the attention seekers get is good for them.

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, captn_Pat said:

Loki can make teammates invincible, status proc like mad with decoy and is invisible (and invincible).

-So you dont like spammy frames?

i do, when they are effective at it, wich was the whole point of my argument, I dont like weapon platforms, i prefer skills to do the killing,

 

None of that is done passively, that was my question. And since you and others are upset over the LoS it is hard to see your point with Loki's active LoS required abilities. Both not only requiring general LoS, but a target right in your reticle. Dante throws up the buffs and then they are there to be reapplied each minute or so, that is my point. I was also more pointing out you cant base casts per minute leading to kills based on a caster frame and then a weapon frame. Maybe compare Dagath and Protea to Dante, since they are more comparable as spammers. Then we have some spammy platforms aswell, like Kullervo where you constantly move with a skill aswell as spread bleeds and OG constantly. 

Also like I said, going with an influence weapon on Dante will likely lead to more kills as opposed to Loki in the end, since he has passive weapon buffs, quick dots to weave in and immortality in the process. So you can compare how those two compare with weapons. 

17 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

No, my playstyle did NOT REMOVE any other playstile, it was released with both playstyles being completely posible and fine, now only 1 of them is posible for no reason whatsoever.. beside annoying people, your oposition to have more playstyles makes 0 sense, more optiosn = better, this do not affect anyone that did not play that way, yet you are defending the change as if they were somehow exclusive with each other.

And no one said you did. It is still a matter of subjectivity. That is my point. He did not get objectively weaker, something you've also said you arent talking about, so even more subjective regarding what changed. And you can still run around and DoT maps, and what them die effortlessly without ever touching Tragedy. I even made a Dark Verse Rhino since the skill is just that good at spamming and wiping SP.

17 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Literally nobody on the whole forum complained about it, but it was already buffed so its great we get a "better" version better LoS consistency is a good thing when LoS its attached to the correct abilities.

Which is the odd part, since it was the root of inconsistency in his whole kit all the way up to last week. Odd how people suddenly notice that LoS when they presume it is due to a completely different skill, when in reality it isnt and that problem has been part of the frame since day one. Like, how did it suddenly become an issue because Tragedy got changed?

17 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

"Yes you can, exept in some ways." ====> this implies that you CAN'T literally you are agreing with me. you can't play him in some ways that you could before simple as that, if you agree you dont need to try and disagree for the sake of disagreeing, you dont have to try and disagree with the stuff you agree with. 
The fact is having LoS or not does nothing against your playstyle and make mine imposible to enjoy, so the solution is simple remove LoS and we BOTH can enjoy the gameplay we love, its not like removing LoS suddenly makes your playstyle imposible.

Still just subjectivity. Since it isnt a decrease in his power or damage, it is a change that impacts how you play. And how we play is a personal choice due to an idea of fun, which is always subjective.

17 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Completely irrelevant as to him having LoS they can improve LoS and remove them from Dante's tragedy, nothing makes those exclude each other.

No it isnt when you claim I defend bad changes, which I dont, since I dont find the changes bad.

17 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Pageflight was released that way, there is no question, they nerfed him removing that buff and added it to him later as an official part of the skill, there was no buff from release as to now, he was his strongest when he was released.

A fix to something unintended is not a nerf. So they never nerfed pageflight, they fixed it. Then gave it to us anyways since we asked for it, so we got something that wasnt supposed to be there to begin with, a buff. 

17 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Please link 3 post, maybe you can find 1 in the whole internet, but link 3, you wont be able to find 3. I only saw praises as to how dante was extremely fun before the nerf.

I'm refering to every person complaining about the LoS on Tragedy, the people that did/dont know it was tied to Dark Verse at the time of their complaint.

Also, it is odd you cant answer a simple question like where you actually used the playstyle you complain is no longer available. What kind of content levels you ran where you needed to detonate things after DoTing up the whole map and ended up on the other side of a wall. I'm running SP for quite long durations and Dark Verse alone is enough in cases where I need to reposition and kill at the same time. There is often nothing behind me out of view behind a wall that I could possibly spend a Tragedy on.

 

[captn_Pat]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

Also like I said, going with an influence weapon on Dante will likely lead to more kills as opposed to Loki in the end,

So why use tragedy at all now when a weapon does the job better? And not only that weapon, any good weapon, his 4 feels like a shotgun now in its nature, rather short range in a cone, that massive radius in the tooltip is misleading, in practice its more like 20 meters, what you look at, maybe, if it isnt behind SOMETHING, enemies blocking themself from damage in halls, its not as awful as before the los fix (that helped some frames quite a bit, so there is that, my khora appreciates it) but its still crap, a expensive dot detonator should not have los restrictions when the primer itself already has that restriction. Its ok that you are fine with it, i dont like it at all, and i am not alone.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, captn_Pat said:

So why use tragedy at all now when a weapon does the job better? And not only that weapon, any good weapon, his 4 feels like a shotgun now in its nature, rather short range in a cone, that massive radius in the tooltip is misleading, in practice its more like 20 meters, what you look at, maybe, if it isnt behind SOMETHING, enemies blocking themself from damage in halls, its not as awful as before the los fix (that helped some frames quite a bit, so there is that, my khora appreciates it) but its still crap, a expensive dot detonator should not have los restrictions when the primer itself already has that restriction. Its ok that you are fine with it, i dont like it at all, and i am not alone.

Same reason you use any other skill even though weapons do it better mostly, because it is fun to play caster frames. 30-ish meter (with 1 mod) shotgun with a 50 degree angle, that can be detonated for millions and millions and millions of damage. Sure sign me up for that shotgun! Expensive detonator, it costs 50(!). And in WFs day and age, who even thinks about energy when we have so many options to counter it? Efficiency, shards, arcanes, operator, mods etc. Pick a choice and never think about energy.

I'm running full efficiency with 1 minute long buffs (dropped down from 75 sec since I wanted Nexus aswell) and 55k OG, my skills cost nothing and my damage still overkills if detonated or bleeds enemies out in seconds if left alone in SP (for hours). Like what more do people need?

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

1 hour ago, Gaxxian said:

 you already know better than others here.

I'd say that much has been self-evident for a good few pages, now.

34 minutes ago, Karyst said:

Let us watch the Kengineers video about Dante then. 

Oh wow! He talks about how amazing Dante is, and his many support and offensive capabilities! Why, he even talks about how incredible Dante's nuke is, rather than complaining about how garbage tier Dante has supposedly become after the LOS change. He did focus more on the offensive capabilities than the support aspects, which is a shame, but he at least covered them unlike some people who seem insistent on denying Dante is anything but a nuke. But hey, according to your citation there's more to Dante than just his nuke: Who'da thunk it? Does this mean you're finally going to stop tunnel-visioning on this and let DE be the game devs in the room? Or is someone as reasonable as the Kengineer not enough to convince you?

7 hours ago, Karyst said:

I only watched fee minutes from the initial gameplay and after I saw the inconsistency with marking enemies with his abilities that were right Infront of him, I stopped watching.

You... stopped watching after a few minutes, despite suggesting giving him a watch like it was some kind of gotcha, and despite the disclaimer that he was using some older footage from before the most recent patch. Wow. Dante Nuke Enjoyers sure stay winning, am I right?

 

[Gandalf_White]

Dante still plays like crap, but now that most people have already put him in helminth and stopped talking about the nerf because of your stubborness y'all will just act like nothing happened only to revisit Dante a year or two later with a measly augment mod when his usage rates are at caliban levels.

[tartcactus]

Tragedy is still bad. 

[LordOfKenpo]

3 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

I'd say that much has been self-evident for a good few pages, now.

Oh wow! He talks about how amazing Dante is, and his many support and offensive capabilities! Why, he even talks about how incredible Dante's nuke is, rather than complaining about how garbage tier Dante has supposedly become after the LOS change. He did focus more on the offensive capabilities than the support aspects, which is a shame, but he at least covered them unlike some people who seem insistent on denying Dante is anything but a nuke. But hey, according to your citation there's more to Dante than just his nuke: Who'da thunk it? Does this mean you're finally going to stop tunnel-visioning on this and let DE be the game devs in the room? Or is someone as reasonable as the Kengineer not enough to convince you?

You... stopped watching after a few minutes, despite suggesting giving him a watch like it was some kind of gotcha, and despite the disclaimer that he was using some older footage from before the most recent patch. Wow. Dante Nuke Enjoyers sure stay winning, am I right?

 

So everyone else here has said they don't enjoy Dante as much as they used to, but because YOU do, that makes it okay. Just because you don't agree with everyone else's opinions, doesn't mean you should just discount them. The fact that you're in the minority here should say something. We've all stated your opinion is valid for YOU, but not necessarily for us, yet you can't show the same common decency to at least acknowledge that our opinions and playstyles are also valid which says you think anyone who doesn't play the game the way you do is wrong, which is inherently a broken theory in a game like warframe.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

13 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

So everyone else here has said they don't enjoy Dante as much as they used to, but because YOU do, that makes it okay. Just because you don't agree with everyone else's opinions, doesn't mean you should just discount them.

You're missing a very important AND, here. It's not merely that they don't enjoy it, after all. Not enjoying it is fine, I don't really care one way or the other on that, and it's not the issue at hand. The issue is that they don't enjoy it AND THEREFORE it should be reverted, buffed, and it should be done so up to and including screeching at the devs and anyone else who thinks the changes were reasonable. You want it made into the latest in a long line of powercreep that is supposedly bad game design but is constantly demanded by players. I don't enjoy how people are always demanding more ways to lazily trivialize already trivial content, to the point where balance comes from RNG loadouts (bad) less than difficulty modifiers (good). Doesn't that mean my opinion shouldn't be discounted?

Oh wait, no one here cares about anyone else's opinions, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise at this point. There was plenty of hostility when I was being more reasonable and less blunt.

13 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

The fact that you're in the minority here should say something.

That you don't understand how selection bias works?

13 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

acknowledge that our opinions and playstyles are also valid which says you think anyone who doesn't play the game the way you do is wrong, which is inherently a broken theory in a game like warframe.

The playstyle isn't valid as DE removed it. Case closed. I think they were right to do so, you disagree, and no one is going to be convinced otherwise one way or the other.

So, here we are. Now what?

Edited April 16 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[LordOfKenpo]

3 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

You're missing a very important AND, here. It's not merely that they don't enjoy it, after all. Not enjoying it is fine, I don't really care one way or the other on that, and it's not the issue at hand. The issue is that they don't enjoy it AND THEREFORE it should be reverted, buffed, and it should be done so up to and including screeching at the devs and anyone else who thinks the changes were reasonable. You want it made into the latest in a long line of powercreep that is supposedly bad game design but is constantly demanded by players. I don't enjoy how people are always demanding more ways to lazily trivialize already trivial content, to the point where balance comes from RNG loadouts (bad) less than difficulty modifiers (good). Doesn't that mean my opinion shouldn't be discounted?

Oh wait, no one here cares about anyone else's opinions, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise at this point. There was plenty of hostility when I was being more

It should be because what they did could very easily be considered a bait and switch. They sold us a frame that played in a way we enjoyed and then removed that playstyle which made the frame no longer what people had paid for. Also most people who work in gaming or play games can tell you, you should never remove qol. If something has a qol improvement it should not be taken away. Also why shoudn't we ask for what we enjoyed to be returned. At this point I think many people are less upset about the change and more about DE's decision to ignore the issue and hope it goes away. One thing I've learned as a software engineer when dealing with customers, no response is ALWAYS the wrong response. A rushed response is also not good, but its been weeks, they should have said something or responded to our feedback. They've given some basic feedback, but none that actually explained it and they spent way longer congratulating themselves on fixing issues they caused which looks really bad and makes us feel like they really don't care. They could simply have said "We acknowledge the feedback on this, but feel this is how we want the frame to be. We apologize for releasing him in the state he was, we didn't do enough testing. As a repair for this, if you purchased him within the first week for money or platinum, we will allow you to request a refund and if you have sunk forma into him during that week and reach out to support, we will provide a forma pack and potato to replace them" and I think people would be much happier.

[WeaverDuck]

12 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

You're missing a very important AND, here. It's not merely that they don't enjoy it, after all. Not enjoying it is fine, I don't really care one way or the other on that, and it's not the issue at hand. The issue is that they don't enjoy it AND THEREFORE it should be reverted, buffed, and it should be done so up to and including screeching at the devs and anyone else who thinks the changes were reasonable.

Well, people who dont enjoy Dante as he is now have every right to want those changes reversed to day one. He was advertised and sold as something slightly different AND THEREFORE people may feel like what they bought was taken from them.  Fun was taken for sure.

[Nero.DMC]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And no one said you did. It is still a matter of subjectivity. That is my point. He did not get objectively weaker, something you've also said you arent talking about, so even more subjective regarding what changed. And you can still run around and DoT maps, and what them die effortlessly without ever touching Tragedy. I even made a Dark Verse Rhino since the skill is just that good at spamming and wiping SP.

I have repeatedly said he is not much weaker, even tho he is a bit weaker, he is not much weaker, he is a whole lot more annoying to play and removed options as to how you can play him. wich is the thing i dont like about the change.

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which is the odd part, since it was the root of inconsistency in his whole kit all the way up to last week. Odd how people suddenly notice that LoS when they presume it is due to a completely different skill, when in reality it isnt and that problem has been part of the frame since day one. Like, how did it suddenly become an issue because Tragedy got changed?

No its not, having abilitites that mark with LoS is not inconsistency its a design desition, one that makes sence, if your marker and detonator both work without LoS its extremely powerful, that's ehy they added it, no one complained because Dante felt great to play, no one have problems with Dark Tragedy, it has always been about tragedy. The root of his inconsistency is a detonator ability that does not detonate enemies even tho they are previously marked.

Quote

Still just subjectivity. Since it isnt a decrease in his power or damage, it is a change that impacts how you play. And how we play is a personal choice due to an idea of fun, which is always subjective.

Sure, subjectivity and opinions are not irrelevant somehow i feel like you would say only objective stuff matter but that is far from the truth speaking about a game, how your players feel when they play is extremely importante, what you just said also means they should always try to leave as many ways to play as posible to let more people enjoy the frame and should also mean you have no reason to opose people asking for the removal of LoS.

Quote

No it isnt when you claim I defend bad changes, which I dont, since I dont find the changes bad.

You are defending bad changes, adding LoS to Tragedy was a bad change, improving LoS in general is a good change but they are not related, one can exist without the other.

Quote

A fix to something unintended is not a nerf. So they never nerfed pageflight, they fixed it. Then gave it to us anyways since we asked for it, so we got something that wasnt supposed to be there to begin with, a buff. 

a nerf is to reduce the effectiveness or power of something, their intentions is not relevant, it was a nerf anyway, not that it really matter, most people care about is LoS the nerf into buff for pageflight is pretty irrelevant

Quote

I'm refering to every person complaining about the LoS on Tragedy, the people that did/dont know it was tied to Dark Verse at the time of their complaint.

Also, it is odd you cant answer a simple question like where you actually used the playstyle you complain is no longer available. What kind of content levels you ran where you needed to detonate things after DoTing up the whole map and ended up on the other side of a wall. I'm running SP for quite long durations and Dark Verse alone is enough in cases where I need to reposition and kill at the same time. There is often nothing behind me out of view behind a wall that I could possibly spend a Tragedy on.

Quite literally everywhere tbh, it annoys the #*!% out of me every time i run around a corner and the enemies i just marked are no longer being tagged, yesterday it happened in a in a lua mision where i was invaded by misery, he dodge into a corner, netracell were i moved a bit and bam half the enemies i marked no longer detonating, also duviri where the terrain #*!%s LoS a lot, also in a cave on earth while doing Cetus bounties and then also on the stupid small passages and hallways in Necralisk vaults... want me to keep going?? how many examples you need?, the issue is everywhere its very annoying, stuff that i marked should get detonated is as simple as that. all those are SP so the base damage i deal to enemies is irrelevant, only ppl marked is taking any real damage.

[Nero.DMC]

9 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

It should be because what they did could very easily be considered a bait and switch. They sold us a frame that played in a way we enjoyed and then removed that playstyle which made the frame no longer what people had paid for. Also most people who work in gaming or play games can tell you, you should never remove qol. If something has a qol improvement it should not be taken away. Also why shoudn't we ask for what we enjoyed to be returned. At this point I think many people are less upset about the change and more about DE's decision to ignore the issue and hope it goes away. One thing I've learned as a software engineer when dealing with customers, no response is ALWAYS the wrong response. A rushed response is also not good, but its been weeks, they should have said something or responded to our feedback. They've given some basic feedback, but none that actually explained it and they spent way longer congratulating themselves on fixing issues they caused which looks really bad and makes us feel like they really don't care. They could simply have said "We acknowledge the feedback on this, but feel this is how we want the frame to be. We apologize for releasing him in the state he was, we didn't do enough testing. As a repair for this, if you purchased him within the first week for money or platinum, we will allow you to request a refund and if you have sunk forma into him during that week and reach out to support, we will provide a forma pack and potato to replace them" and I think people would be much happier.

Dont waste time on him (armadillium), he is just fishing for attention, i tried reasoning with him but its pointless

Edited April 16 by Nero.DMC

[tartcactus]

11 days with no response from the customer service team. One reviewer mentioned average response time from DE has dropped to around 14 days. Hey, don't hurt yourselves, guys!