Dante with functioning LoS feels Great

[UnstarPrime]

I wanted to wait for all the nerfs and buffs to more or less resolve before digging into Dante, so it's only in the past few days that I've really spent much time with Dante.  From what I've played so far, he seems great.  With a simple 4-Forma build without any shards or fancy combos, he feels like one of the most comfortable and capable frames in the game.  His Overguard gives my entire team more support than they need, while Dark Verse and Tragedy destroy all but the hardiest enemies.  It almost feels like cheating to have a frame with such great survivability without needing to mod for shields, health, or even Adaptation.  So with just that, he's feeling great, and I know I've only scratched the surface on Noctua and his birds and books.

As for the LoS on his abilities, I've really got no complaints.  I think the biggest reason for that is the rendered LoS: his attacks hit everything I can see, and that's where the bulk of the feel comes from, at least for me.  So I have yet to run into a situation where it feels like an enemy that should have been hit wasn't; that's all I need.

I agree that DE made some blunders in this process, but we all make mistakes.  And what I care about more than the mistakes is DE openly taking owning those mistakes and doing what they can to apologize and course correct.  And after the storm has passed, it seems like Dante is in a great spot.  So thanks for the hard work and the humility.

[xXTheShaXx]

Even though I'm among those who want a los revert I must say that, yes, It's miles better now compared than how he was last time I played it, but still, reverting LoS would not be that bad

Edited April 13 by xXTheShaXx

[(PSN)MYKK678]

1 hour ago, UnstarPrime said:

I wanted to wait for all the nerfs and buffs to more or less resolve before digging into Dante, so it's only in the past few days that I've really spent much time with Dante.  From what I've played so far, he seems great.  With a simple 4-Forma build without any shards or fancy combos, he feels like one of the most comfortable and capable frames in the game.  His Overguard gives my entire team more support than they need, while Dark Verse and Tragedy destroy all but the hardiest enemies.  It almost feels like cheating to have a frame with such great survivability without needing to mod for shields, health, or even Adaptation.  So with just that, he's feeling great, and I know I've only scratched the surface on Noctua and his birds and books.

As for the LoS on his abilities, I've really got no complaints.  I think the biggest reason for that is the rendered LoS: his attacks hit everything I can see, and that's where the bulk of the feel comes from, at least for me.  So I have yet to run into a situation where it feels like an enemy that should have been hit wasn't; that's all I need.

I agree that DE made some blunders in this process, but we all make mistakes.  And what I care about more than the mistakes is DE openly taking owning those mistakes and doing what they can to apologize and course correct.  And after the storm has passed, it seems like Dante is in a great spot.  So thanks for the hard work and the humility.

You forgot to mention that the devs are going to continue to look into him and feedback on him over the next week or so. You have to mention that or else you won't get paid. Did they accidentally send you an early draft of what to say?

Improving something "bad" doesn't automatically make it "good". It often just increases it to mediocre instead. Dantes worst foes aren't grineer or corpus or sentients, they're small tables and pillars and corridors. And as long as that continues he'll remain mediocre. Reverting the LoS addition and reducing the Range of Tragedy is the only path to him being good again.

(And yes, I've played him since the hotfix before anyone suggests it condescendingly)

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

2 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

I wanted to wait for all the nerfs and buffs to more or less resolve before digging into Dante, so it's only in the past few days that I've really spent much time with Dante.  From what I've played so far, he seems great.  With a simple 4-Forma build without any shards or fancy combos, he feels like one of the most comfortable and capable frames in the game.  His Overguard gives my entire team more support than they need, while Dark Verse and Tragedy destroy all but the hardiest enemies.  It almost feels like cheating to have a frame with such great survivability without needing to mod for shields, health, or even Adaptation.  So with just that, he's feeling great, and I know I've only scratched the surface on Noctua and his birds and books.

As for the LoS on his abilities, I've really got no complaints.  I think the biggest reason for that is the rendered LoS: his attacks hit everything I can see, and that's where the bulk of the feel comes from, at least for me.  So I have yet to run into a situation where it feels like an enemy that should have been hit wasn't; that's all I need.

I agree that DE made some blunders in this process, but we all make mistakes.  And what I care about more than the mistakes is DE openly taking owning those mistakes and doing what they can to apologize and course correct.  And after the storm has passed, it seems like Dante is in a great spot.  So thanks for the hard work and the humility.

Bud its still horrible the things they said would be fixed ARE NOT

LOS still gets blocked by your own frame, small objects and yes even SHADOWS (which i thought they fixed but yesterday it happened again somehow there was nothing in front of my enemy and he took no damage no objects in his way just shadows and rays)

And you have range one an LOS move i can see you but you can't take damage because your out of my range i mean that dosent make since 

LOS is just a horrible mechanic there trying to push on everyone but no one truly wants it and everyone has been asking them to remove it but the devs just don't listen 

Edited April 13 by (XBOX)toughdragon17
More elaboration

[OnestarMike]

It's nice that you're getting a good experience out of it but a lot of players are not. I am one of the people that often sees enemies still alive around me because of the myriad of reasons why something might block LoS.

DE's current argument is that they had concerns with the range. If that was the problem LoS was not the fix, and it has never been the fix when they say it's a range issue. We went from all of Dante being 100% great to a big chunk of his kit not working most of the time. It just feels bad and it's always going to feel bad with perfect LoS.

[UnstarPrime]

15 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Dantes worst foes aren't grineer or corpus or sentients, they're small tables and pillars and corridors. And as long as that continues he'll remain mediocre. Reverting the LoS addition and reducing the Range of Tragedy is the only path to him being good again.

I can only speak for myself, but for whatever reason I'm not experiencing that issue at all.  What I do experience regularly is casting Tragedy thinking I'm going to hit 3 enemies in front of me and seeing 5 distinct sets of damage numbers pop up, presumably because enemies that I didn't even realize were there actually had a few pixels exposed and the rendered LoS is tagging them.

But that's just my experience.  If you're having a different experience, that's valid, too.  Games are complex, so it makes sense that if there are bugs then some people will run into them and some people won't.  That being the case, I encourage you to do what you can to report every last specific detail about the problems you're experiencing: the objects, the tilesets, etc.

[Intotsu]

I have been playing him a lot and been having a mixed-to-good experience. It was effective when it worked but there were several times when it flat out didn't because of architecture and the fact that my playstyle makes liberal and near-constant use of the parkour system (so I may have cast a second too late/early for optimal positioning).

I already have a topic on this, but that's been my only gripe with his nerfs. I'm glad LoS is improving, but it feels particularly not great on him for a number of reasons.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

39 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

I can only speak for myself, but for whatever reason I'm not experiencing that issue at all.  What I do experience regularly is casting Tragedy thinking I'm going to hit 3 enemies in front of me and seeing 5 distinct sets of damage numbers pop up, presumably because enemies that I didn't even realize were there actually had a few pixels exposed and the rendered LoS is tagging them.

But that's just my experience.  If you're having a different experience, that's valid, too.  Games are complex, so it makes sense that if there are bugs then some people will run into them and some people won't.  That being the case, I encourage you to do what you can to report every last specific detail about the problems you're experiencing: the objects, the tilesets, etc.

I'm afraid brushing it off as a "bug" isn't going to work here. I'm not saying there aren't bugs ofc, there's many, including Dante himself blocking his own Line of Sight which I cannot imagine was factored into your assessment of him. But whether we're talking about something being a bug or it being Line of Sight working as intended, they both lead to the same result; a mediocre Warframe.

I'd suggest expanding your tests past the new tilesets and trying it on older ones, like Grineer/Corpus ships or Defence Missions with different height levels. The results you're claiming to have seen could only be achieved in wide open areas like the Albrecht Labs, whereas I'm interested in Dante being useful everywhere.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

including Dante himself blocking his own Line of Sight which I

Don't forget that somehow shadows or rays or even both can block the LOS iv only gotten this 3 maby 4 times but the enemy will take no damage and nothing will be blocking the way no objects, Dante, or terrain the only thing that's there are lighting and floor so its eather the floor or the actual lighting rays and shadows 

[UnstarPrime]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

I'm not saying there aren't bugs ofc, there's many, including Dante himself blocking his own Line of Sight which I cannot imagine was factored into your assessment of him.

If you try to interpret what I wrote as a comprehensive, in-depth study of Dante, you're going to come away with the wrong impression.  I'm not doing scientific studies, I'm just playing the game and giving feedback based on my subjective experience.

 

4 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

I'd suggest expanding your tests past the new tilesets and trying it on older ones, like Grineer/Corpus ships or Defence Missions with different height levels. The results you're claiming to have seen could only be achieved in wide open areas like the Albrecht Labs, whereas I'm interested in Dante being useful everywhere.

I've been playing on a wide variety of maps with plenty of height disparity; last night I did a bunch of Void Fissures that took me to many older maps, an Arbitration in the Grineer mining map with the raised catwalks, the full Archon Hunt, etc.

If you say your LoS is consistently failing, I believe you; it sounds like our experiences are simply night and day.  Which hopefully makes you curious: what could it possibly be that's happening in your game that isn't happening in mine, or vice versa?  Is it a setting of some kind?  Is it a sigil or a piece of armor that is causing LoS to fail hard?  Something else?

I won't pretend to know what it could be, but hopefully by providing DE with some videos of what you're experiencing they'll be able to figure out why you're not getting the same results as me and fix it.

[Pseudozz]

Glad you've had a good experience.

Rant inc. 

That said, I'm almost sure you haven't played on the new maps. They are HORRIFIC. Table in front of you? Great, no LOS in that general direction in front of you, no damage on cast. Pebble on the goddamn floor? Yeah, you clearly can't see that mob standing 5 feet in front of you, no damage on cast. Hell, Dante HIMSELF can block your LOS. The changes are laughable. 

As for proposed solutions, I've seen you suggest a myriad of things. Your wrong on every single one. It's not a setting, not armor, it's not some weird glitch with games. It's the LOS system they've had for YEARS. It's just trash. Great example is Ember. Good damage, big AoE, fun. Why is she dead in the water? LOS. A better example is Saryn. Good damage, big AoE (chain), fun. Why is she so great? Map nukes with no LOS req. Same goes for Nezha with his shiny new augment, although to a lesser extent than saryn. Same also went for pre-nerf Dante. Good damage (not crazy without a primer but still), big aoe, VERY fun. Why is he currently on life-support like a geriatric man? LOS. I can continue, but I won't for sake of length. LOS seems to ruin every frame it touches unless there is a good reason for it to be there, such as a 1 button nuke that needs no setup, or just a strong buff ability like pillage. An ability that required a 2 button setup, a primer at higher levels, AND WAS ALREADY LIMITED BY THE AFOREMENTIONED SETUP ABILITY'S LOS apparently needs actual dogS#&$ LOS? BS. 

Ok. Contrary to what I've said, I'm fine with LOS change, on one condition. Do it to every nuke frame in the game. Make it fair. Saryn? LOS. Nezha? LOS. Gauss? LOS. Put it on every goddamn nuke. Then we'll see how great LOS is right? They nerfed Dante's survivability too. Now do it to every other frame as well. Rev? Nerf that. Nezha? Nerf that. Rhino? Nerf that. Xaku? Nerf that. Styanax? Nerf that. If we go nuclear with one frame, we do it with all. It's only fair. 

Rant over. 

[UnstarPrime]

1 hour ago, Pseudozz said:

That said, I'm almost sure you haven't played on the new maps.

Did some Netracells, didn't experience any issues.  Gonna do Elite Archimedea today, so we'll see how that goes.

 

1 hour ago, Pseudozz said:

As for proposed solutions, I've seen you suggest a myriad of things. Your wrong on every single one. It's not a setting, not armor, it's not some weird glitch with games. It's the LOS system they've had for YEARS.

With respect, this can't be true because Dante uses a new LoS system that has only been around for a week or two.  If you haven't I recommend reading up on it in the patch notes, it's honestly pretty interesting how they've designed it!

And to be clarify, I haven't proposed any solutions; how could I when we don't even know why LoS is consistently working for some people but consistently failing for others?  That's why one of the best steps we can take towards a solution is to gather information for DE so they can identify what's responsible for this consistent inconsistency.

 

As an aside directed at no one in particular, I think it's pretty silly how my simply sharing the genuine experiences I've had with the game has resulted in multiple people insinuating that my experiences are somehow invalid.  Like look, I get it, some folks say LoS isn't working for them.  I believe them when they say that, and that sounds like a real bummer, and those folks have my compassion.  But the person saying LoS is working fine in their game isn't the enemy; my experience differing from theirs in no way invalidates anyone else's experience.  Each of our stories is a fragment of the same truth.

I encourage everyone to give their feedback to DE, as well as provide videos, details, logs, etc to them; that's how change happens.

[(PSN)Thanatos-Prime]

1 minute ago, UnstarPrime said:

With respect, this can't be true because Dante uses a new LoS system that has only been around for a week or two.  If you haven't I recommend reading up on it in the patch notes, it's honestly pretty interesting how they've designed it!

And to be clarify, I haven't proposed any solutions; how could I when we don't even know why LoS is consistently working for some people but consistently failing for others?  That's why one of the best steps we can take towards a solution is to gather information for DE so they can identify what's responsible for this consistent inconsistency.

 

As an aside directed at no one in particular, I think it's pretty silly how my simply sharing the genuine experiences I've had with the game has resulted in multiple people insinuating that my experiences are somehow invalid.  Like look, I get it, some folks say LoS isn't working for them.  I believe them when they say that, and that sounds like a real bummer, and those folks have my compassion.  But the person saying LoS is working fine in their game isn't the enemy; my experience differing from theirs in no way invalidates anyone else's experience.  Each of our stories is a fragment of the same truth.

I encourage everyone to give their feedback to DE, as well as provide videos, details, logs, etc to them; that's how change happens.

Your, I'm sorry but your joking. 

Dante does not use "A NEW" system my guy, it's the same shoddy LoS we've always hated with various poorly made plywood patches thrown over to try and fool people. Clearly I'm sorry to say it worked here. Thankfully not on veterans at large who know the game. We know why it's failing, a casual glance about the forums in various topics has ample vod, screen shots and first and links. 

 

There's not MULTIPLE truths my man, there's Truth and fiction. The idea that real truth has multiple happy fragments so everyone is right just makes my head hurt, reality and life don't work that way, specially not in business, you either win, or you loose end of story.  Your rainbow sunglasses will shatter eventually I hope. Because nobody can be this, this dillusional unless I suppose they choose to be. Fact is LoS is a crap poorly designed system. It's inconsistent on the best of days and cannot be fixed with hugs and good vibes, it's flawed down to the code. If some choose to not acknowledge reality we'll, DE counts on that, on this. And they walk away smiling thinking they did good and deserve a cookie. They don't. 

So, here's your complementary bag of SHILLings, plenty of us just aren't buying. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

5 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

If you try to interpret what I wrote as a comprehensive, in-depth study of Dante, you're going to come away with the wrong impression.  I'm not doing scientific studies, I'm just playing the game and giving feedback based on my subjective experience.

 

I've been playing on a wide variety of maps with plenty of height disparity; last night I did a bunch of Void Fissures that took me to many older maps, an Arbitration in the Grineer mining map with the raised catwalks, the full Archon Hunt, etc.

If you say your LoS is consistently failing, I believe you; it sounds like our experiences are simply night and day.  Which hopefully makes you curious: what could it possibly be that's happening in your game that isn't happening in mine, or vice versa?  Is it a setting of some kind?  Is it a sigil or a piece of armor that is causing LoS to fail hard?  Something else?

I won't pretend to know what it could be, but hopefully by providing DE with some videos of what you're experiencing they'll be able to figure out why you're not getting the same results as me and fix it.

To be fair, you did decide to add "functioning LOS feels great" to the title of your thread, and within 1 reply you then brought up how it could have bugs. Well....that's not functional. It's not fulfilling it's one function.

It either works as intended and as such has left Dante mediocre, or its not working as intended and has bugs, which doesn't leave Dante any better than option one. Within 20 mins of a hotfix going out on the Friday before last, lots of folks reported Dante blocking his own LoS, and no fix for this amongst other issues was present in last week's hotfix. Keep in mind, LoS was added to Dante, this was an addition, so every single time a new fix for LoS gets released, it's not hard to imagine why so many players feel like it's DE doubling/tripling/quadrupling down on a completely unnecessary addition. If they want to improve LoS for older frames that use it I'm fine with that, but LoS is essentially being forced onto Dante so he can be used as a Test for this new LoS system. Whether someone built him or paid for him, the fact remains that Live Server isn't a Test Server, and shouldn't be used as such. Neither should Dante be used as a Guinea pig for a system he never needed in the first place.

So all in all, I respectfully disagree, both with LoS actually being Functional, and with how he feels. I jumped on today and tried every single map with different height dimensions I could think of and didn't come anywhere close to what you're reporting. My Settings shouldn't even be in this conversation. Not one of them should affect how well any frame handles compared to other players, Settings should be a preference/comfort option and that's all.

Edited April 13 by (PSN)MYKK678
.

[Pseudozz]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Thanatos-Prime said:

Dante does not use "A NEW" system my guy, it's the same shoddy LoS we've always hated with various poorly made plywood patches thrown over to try and fool people. Clearly I'm sorry to say it worked here.

Well shoot, I couldn't have said it better myself. 

[UnstarPrime]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

To be fair, you did decide to add "functioning LOS feels great" to the title of your thread, and within 1 reply you then brought up how it could have bugs. Well....that's not functional. It's not fulfilling it's one function.

My intention with the phrase "functioning LoS" was to contrast it with Dante's first implementation of LoS that everyone — even the devs — agreed wasn't working.  I personally wouldn't use the term "functional" as a synonym for "has absolutely no bugs" because if that were the case then no software in the world — let alone Warframe — would warrant the term.  Anyway, makes sense that there would be a miscommunication here, and hopefully this clears up what I was intending to express.

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Thanatos-Prime said:

There's not MULTIPLE truths my man, there's Truth and fiction.

Sigh, there aren't multiple truths.  There's one truth, and that truth is that this feature seems to work fine for some people and not work fine for others.  The people for whom LoS doesn't work are a component of that singular truth, and the people for whom LoS does work are also part of that singular truth.  To pretend that either of those groups doesn't exist is to warp the truth, because the truth is that one singular system is somehow performing completely differently for different people.  And there's a clue that gets use closer to solving the issue in that simple fact.

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Thanatos-Prime said:

Dante does not use "A NEW" system my guy, it's the same shoddy LoS we've always hated

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the previous LoS system have the below check?  Because I was under the impression this aspect was new, especially since despite it being considered part of the LoS system, it entirely bypasses making any actual line of sight checks for entities that qualify:

"The first type of check sees if any part of the enemy has been drawn on the screen, so that any part of an enemy, big or small, is considered visible/eligible to pass the LoS check. "

 

Anyway, hope everyone has a good one; I'm gonna go complain about this week's Elite Archimedia now.

[Pseudozz]

1 hour ago, UnstarPrime said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the previous LoS system have the below check?  Because I was under the impression this aspect was new, especially since despite it being considered part of the LoS system,

It has new features. It's not a new system. It also just so happens these features did #*!% all for the ability. The system is still trash, it's just shiny trash marketed as new. 

[(PSN)Thanatos-Prime]

2 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

A- Sigh, there aren't multiple truths.  There's one truth, and that truth is that this feature seems to work fine for some people and not work fine for others.  The people for whom LoS doesn't work are a component of that singular truth, and the people for whom LoS does work are also part of that singular truth.  To pretend that either of those groups doesn't exist is to warp the truth, because the truth is that one singular system is somehow performing completely differently for different people.  And there's a clue that gets use closer to solving the issue in that simple fact.

 

B- Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the previous LoS system have the below check?  Because I was under the impression this aspect was new, especially since despite it being considered part of the LoS system, it entirely bypasses making any actual line of sight checks for entities that qualify:

"The first type of check sees if any part of the enemy has been drawn on the screen, so that any part of an enemy, big or small, is considered visible/eligible to pass the LoS check. "

 

Anyway, hope everyone has a good one; I'm gonna go complain about this week's Elite Archimedia now.

O.o You not only somehow created your own circular logic but missed the bloody point before admitting the issue. That should not be possible. OK. Let me try to break that into non mind numbing language. Ok I'll use bullets points, those are easy to grasp right. OK. 

- Truth. A system. That works for 50% of a population by definition DOES NOT WORK. If a school only gets 30% of its students to basic reading and math ITS NOT WORKING. You simply cannot look at that situation and say "it's working just not for everyone" the point of school is to get educated, if 100% no if 90% of the normal well adjusted population is not getting that education ITS NOT WORKING RIGHT. 

-Truth. There's no bloody participation trophy in life my man. You either succeed or you fail. Coddling this issue as you do only serves to muddle the facts. Computer codes are binary. If Then Let, If player hits button. THEN this happens, Let this effect occur. That's a bit oversimplified but I want you to grasp it. LoS is broken because it fails to consistently follow basic code principles across the board. Works for some, not all. That's a game inconsistency and BREAKS IMMERSION AND ENJOYMENT. 

-Truth. The previous LoS was still a pig. They've managed to pretty it up with a nice wig, a mani pedi and lipstick. ITS STILL A PIG. Again avoiding the issue, going to DE and saying "well, it's OK now, you really made her look fabulous now" a cogent logical person would question your sanity sir. It's STILL A 🐖  OK, they nailed some plywood, a nice coat of paint. Good wall decor. The foundation is STILL ROTTEN. Choosing not to see or acknowledge that is a personal choice, not truth. The truth will hit you when your wall collapses from the rot because you put a bandaid on it instead to rebuilding proper. Building on top of a faulty foundation will fail, this is basic life logic here. Applies to everything, put a new motor in a crappy car not equipped to hold it? FAIL, fill an above ground pool without checking the wall supports? FAIL, build a new PC without accounting fir power and putting an anemic power block in? FAIL. If the foundation is crap, your doomed. 

-Truth. There's 0 consistently to "Enemies that qualify" your checks. Look on the forums, thousands of vids, and screen caps of stupid blaring crap. Stuff THAT SHOULD by DE and your logic pass Said checks but doesn't. If something blocks the check, and that something SHOULDN'T BLOCK SAID CHECK. SYSTEMS BROKEN, because that means there's a fatal flaw in the code. The additional problem is another fact, WERE ALWAYS MOVING, now we're expected to stop, spend 40 minutes doing camera dances just to line crap up and then toggle an ability. Meanwhile Saryn runs in. Throws out her crap and toddles off, Volt screams in, hits one button, vaporizes the tile and runs off. Gauss runs in, claps 3 times and he's gone. But a Dante players expected to run in, stand still, play with his aim for lord knows how long, account for obstructions, geometry, shadows, dead bodies, his own bloody model? Cmon. 

I cannot break this down more simply. 

[sh0shin]

He feels better than before (after the Big Nerfs), but I personally don't even have a frame of reference to non-LoS Dante.

I have no reason to use him over any other room clearing semi tank frame (a lot of frames that start with the letter G come to mind). Dark Verse straight up feels better to use as a subsumed and infused ability.