Another reason LoS feels bad that people aren't mentioning

[Intotsu]

Hello to all,
Forgive me for the somewhat provocative title, but I'm one of the players who also played Dante on release, loved him, saw the rapid nerfing, hated it (but mostly the LoS addition), and has been following the many, many  (MANY) discussions on this topic.

The reason I bring up this title is that, despite the fact that I've been following this discussion for a while, I haven't seen this particular part of the Line of Sight addition that makes it feel particularly bad, which is the following combination of things.

• Warframe is a (highly) mobility focused game
• Despite being slow, Dante is a Mage themed warframe designed with the above in mind.

This, to my mind, is the particular difficulty of adding line of sight to the mix when it comes to Dante. Like most warframes with abilities, Dante is designed to use his abilities on the move. And in nearly all cases they work well for use on the move.
 

1. Noctua is a weapon, and all weapons are designed to be used on the move.
2. Light verse applied to all allies linked by affinity to you (Same with Triumph) making it more reliant on proximity than movement.
3. Dark verse applies to essentially the enemies you're looking at, meaning if you miss you need to change your aim and cast again.
4. Pageflight relies on personal proximity since the birds always fly near you and Wordwarden functions with affinity range on casting again.

This of course leaves Tragedy as the odd one out. Because for Tragedy, being a primary damage dealing ability that triggers off of damaging status effects, movement can mess up things royally when Line of sight is involved.

One of the best aspects of this game is the movement system. Were it up to me as a designer, I would make the continued use of the parkour system the primary means of evading damage across the board as it is the most fun aspect of the system and also makes the most sense in my head. That being said, one cool thing to do when you play any warframe is casting/shooting attacking on the fly with an airglide to deal damage to enemies and follow it it up to continue moving as you attack enemies continuously, regardless of how you do it.

With Dante, doing the priming with other spells/attacks and then casting a devastating Tragedy was cool because, regardless of position, as long as you primed enough enemies in preparation, you didn't have to worry about making sure you were in a prime position to deal damage, only that you had done the preparation.

Now, was this insane in how fast you could clear things when not at a high level? absolutely. I would never have put base damage on something that hit enemies as far as you could with Dante (I put Stretch on him so... his already wide range became gigantic), or at most it would be 1 damage so i could use it to find out enemy positions or something. But in principle it works better that way.

However, adding Line of Sight makes positioning important, yes, but not in a way that can be easily quantified. LoS is the only reason I have had any issues with Plunder from the new and improved Hydroid for example. I cant tell you how many times I tried to either renew or set up a pillage armor boost only for it to be something as mediocre as 200 armor because, despite being surrounded by enemies, only a few of them had their armor stolen due to either geometry or, worse, my model being slightly too low to target them. The better LoS should improve this (one can hope, but it kind of emphasizes the point. For a LoS ability which originates around your character, if it is a single burst effect you want to be:

• In a set position for the burst (so you want to stop your momentum temporarily)
• that is ideal (not impeded by the setting or geometry)

If a LoS ability is omnidirectional, you can't fully take into consideration the structures around you, especially while moving, to determine the most effective location to cast it. Not easily, not in a game like Warframe which encourages movement.

This is the primary reason why LoS feels so bad on Dante. As a caster-frame with a Mage theme, his abilities are emphasized and require a multi-step process. Making the payoff for that process uncertain due to elements of the game that are both fundamental and encouraged feels discouraging. To this end, I add my vote to the following suggested change in this forum: DE, please reduce the base damage of Tragedy to 0 or 1 (for scouting purposes) and remove the Line of Sight requirement.

 

(P.S: I know this discussion may be obvious, I just haven't seen it directly talked about as a reason for the discomfort with the LoS change)

Edited April 13 by Intotsu

[OnestarMike]

This is the core reasoning I’ve said across the forums. 

I’m convinced people that defend the current state of Dante don’t actually play him and just don’t want him in lobbies for whatever reason. Or it’s just straight malice toward the game itself. 

No amount of LoS fixes will ever make Dante feel like he’s suppose to. It has to be removed or this frame will fall into obscurity because people will get too frustrated when their combo finisher fails on a regular basis. If tragedy was a one click button with no prior setup and straight damage, there would be a solid reason to keep it on LoS. But that isn’t the case and that’s not how DE designed it to be.

It’s a real shame to see what was a perfect frame release punished by issues outside of Dante’s controls, and left this massive thorn in his side

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

6 hours ago, OnestarMike said:

I’m convinced people that defend the current state of Dante don’t actually play him and just don’t want him in lobbies for whatever reason. Or it’s just straight malice toward the game itself. 

No amount of LoS fixes will ever make Dante feel like he’s suppose to. It has to be removed or this frame will fall into obscurity because people will get too frustrated when their combo finisher fails on a regular basis. If tragedy was a one click button with no prior setup and straight damage, there would be a solid reason to keep it on LoS. But that isn’t the case and that’s not how DE designed it to be

I think so as well iv meet people that sit there and defend his changes yet have never played him the reason I think they do this is because he could have dethroned one of the meta frames easily with a bit of moding and these people didn't like that so they were happy when he got nerfed and like to try and keep him that way 

 

Oh I know people will get frustrated iv tested him multiple times in missions and the holo deck (shorter name) and there's several things that can block his dark verse and tragedy but mainly his tragedy  himself for one, small objects, big objects, other frames, and for some reason a shadow or rays (had 3 experiences so far were the enemies took no damage yet there was nothing in the way not even my frame only shadows and rays maby the LOS tracker can bounce off of light and shadow rays)

Edited April 13 by (XBOX)toughdragon17
Fixing words

[Intotsu]

11 hours ago, OnestarMike said:

This is the core reasoning I’ve said across the forums. 

I’m convinced people that defend the current state of Dante don’t actually play him and just don’t want him in lobbies for whatever reason. Or it’s just straight malice toward the game itself. 

No amount of LoS fixes will ever make Dante feel like he’s suppose to. It has to be removed or this frame will fall into obscurity because people will get too frustrated when their combo finisher fails on a regular basis. If tragedy was a one click button with no prior setup and straight damage, there would be a solid reason to keep it on LoS. But that isn’t the case and that’s not how DE designed it to be.

It’s a real shame to see what was a perfect frame release punished by issues outside of Dante’s controls, and left this massive thorn in his side

To be fair, for the most part, while you and maybe others may have gone into more detail before, most of the time I have read that "It feels bad" without the detail of specifically why it feels bad. Maybe it is because as a concept it may seem like it should be obvious to us players (and especially to the designers), but i thought starting an article to articulate the difficulty would help.

For me, fantasy and theme are enough to cover a lot of my enjoyment a lot of the time. And while i really feel like the effectiveness is significantly lost (by the time I get into an ideal position its often a situation where my allies have their weapons primed and firing sometimes), I make do in other areas.
I get attached to frames regardless of effectiveness due to pure theming alone. Nezha was the frame I bought immediately upon getting access to the store as a new player because I loved the idea of being a frame designed around the power of a young demi-god (once i learned about the actual myth of Nezha I liked it even more). The fact that Nezha has consistently been one of the most powerful frames in the game (at least since I started playing him, which was post rework) was merely a bonus. I like Wisp as a spy frame more than I like her as a support frame, and I like Citrine as a support frame more than most others.
The point being, Dante just as a concept and through gameplay will be a frame I'll play for a while regardless. But the distinct discomfort I've felt post-nerf is if I play him as i would normally, I run a higher risk of just... wasting energy casting Tragedy. And the thing is, I WANT to keep moving, because its fun, and what I enjoy about playing the game the most. This iteration of line of sight makes it difficult to do that, and that, in my opinion, is what makes it feel bad. I've gotten back to the game after a week of allergies and work, and it essentially confirmed that for me.


 

Edited April 13 by Intotsu

[OnestarMike]

1 hour ago, Intotsu said:

To be fair, for the most part, while you and maybe others may have gone into more detail before, most of the time I have read that "It feels bad" without the detail of specifically why it feels bad. Maybe it is because as a concept it may seem like it should be obvious to us players (and especially to the designers), but i thought starting an article to articulate the difficulty would help.

For me, fantasy and theme are enough to cover a lot of my enjoyment a lot of the time. And while i really feel like the effectiveness is significantly lost (by the time I get into an ideal position its often a situation where my allies have their weapons primed and firing sometimes), I make do in other areas.
I get attached to frames regardless of effectiveness due to pure theming alone. Nezha was the frame I bought immediately upon getting access to the store as a new player because I loved the idea of being a frame designed around the power of a young demi-god (once i learned about the actual myth of Nezha I liked it even more). The fact that Nezha has consistently been one of the most powerful frames in the game (at least since I started playing him, which was post rework) was merely a bonus. I like Wisp as a spy frame more than I like her as a support frame, and I like Citrine as a support frame more than most others.
The point being, Dante just as a concept and through gameplay will be a frame I'll play for a while regardless. But the distinct discomfort I've felt post-nerf is if I play him as i would normally, I run a higher risk of just... wasting energy casting Tragedy. And the thing is, I WANT to keep moving, because it’s fun, and what I enjoy about playing the game the most. This iteration of line of sight makes it difficult to do that, and that, in my opinion, is what makes it feel bad. I've gotten back to the game after a week of allergies and work, and it essentially confirmed that for me.


 

100%. I wish I could keep enjoying the game like you but I came back to Warframe for Dante’s release and while the frame is technically “fine”, the reasons here have just made it a frustrating experience to the point that I lost my drive to play already. I hope they fix it, or it might end up being a permanent hiatus for me instead of my usual couple month breaks. I love magic, and the fact that this Warframe nailed that feeling so well, and everything about him felt great and not overpowered. To see his current state after just 4 days from release, it’s just disheartening. 

[Darkbring]

A lot of tiles throughout the game consist of corridors and small rooms separated by automatic doors and filled with obstructive geometry. Even if LoS mechanic was done perfectly from the start it still would've murdered Dante's Tragedy. An unreliable detonator is just worthless junk, and that's exactly what Tragedy is now.

[Dullaran]

On 2024-04-13 at 2:03 AM, OnestarMike said:

I’m convinced people that defend the current state of Dante don’t actually play him and just don’t want him in lobbies for whatever reason. Or it’s just straight malice toward the game itself. 

True.

 

[quxier]

On 2024-04-13 at 6:20 AM, Intotsu said:

DE, please reduce the base damage of Tragedy to 0 or 1 (for scouting purposes) and remove the Line of Sight requirement.

No, I like 4th to do something more.

On 2024-04-13 at 8:52 AM, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

Oh I know people will get frustrated iv tested him multiple times in missions and the holo deck (shorter name) and there's several things that can block his dark verse and tragedy but mainly his tragedy  himself for one, small objects, big objects, other frames, and for some reason a shadow or rays (had 3 experiences so far were the enemies took no damage yet there was nothing in the way not even my frame only shadows and rays maby the LOS tracker can bounce off of light and shadow rays)

Shadow blocks LoS check? That's interesting.

I've been playing it for some time. I've not seen major issues with him yet. I've been playing it in Duviri, Netracells and todays Archon hunt. It may be not perfect but big part of what I see is at least damaged.

I still have to play him where he is (near) worthless.

On 2024-04-13 at 7:03 AM, OnestarMike said:

This is the core reasoning I’ve said across the forums. 

I’m convinced people that defend the current state of Dante don’t actually play him and just don’t want him in lobbies for whatever reason. Or it’s just straight malice toward the game itself. 

No amount of LoS fixes will ever make Dante feel like he’s suppose to. It has to be removed or this frame will fall into obscurity because people will get too frustrated when their combo finisher fails on a regular basis. If tragedy was a one click button with no prior setup and straight damage, there would be a solid reason to keep it on LoS. But that isn’t the case and that’s not how DE designed it to be.

It’s a real shame to see what was a perfect frame release punished by issues outside of Dante’s controls, and left this massive thorn in his side

I know it's hard to believe that people have different opinions about him. I'm not on full defend mode about his 4th: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392931-increasing-base-5-m-non-los-check-for-dante-via-certain-actions-stats-of-4thtragedy/

however content I've been playing so far, Dante is 'ok'. I've been even into ~50% damage in group. It can fall into obscurity but other reason, at least for me, would play big role as well:

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1394106-light-verse-very-small-usage-changesbuffs/

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1386385-dante-cast-4th-with-empty-pages-tabula-rasa-augments-devstream-177-commentary/

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392300-dante-4thtrumph-hold-to-cast-at-max-overguard/

.. well, offtopic a little

[Pseudozz]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I've been playing it in Duviri, Netracells and todays Archon hunt.

So, you've played him in some of the most expansive maps and claim to not have issues. Lol. 

Edited April 17 by Pseudozz

[Intotsu]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

No, I like 4th to do something more.

Shadow blocks LoS check? That's interesting.

I've been playing it for some time. I've not seen major issues with him yet. I've been playing it in Duviri, Netracells and todays Archon hunt. It may be not perfect but big part of what I see is at least damaged.

I still have to play him where he is (near) worthless.

I know it's hard to believe that people have different opinions about him. I'm not on full defend mode about his 4th: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392931-increasing-base-5-m-non-los-check-for-dante-via-certain-actions-stats-of-4thtragedy/

however content I've been playing so far, Dante is 'ok'. I've been even into ~50% damage in group. It can fall into obscurity but other reason, at least for me, would play big role as well:

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1394106-light-verse-very-small-usage-changesbuffs/

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1386385-dante-cast-4th-with-empty-pages-tabula-rasa-augments-devstream-177-commentary/

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392300-dante-4thtrumph-hold-to-cast-at-max-overguard/

.. well, offtopic a little

Honestly, don't get me wrong, he's fun to play for me. And I get the idea of wanting to balance his massive range with positioning.
The issue I have with using Tragedy (I cast it far, FAR less than I used to) is because as opposed to everything else he does, I need to reduce my playstyle to use it optimally (The main appeal of this game for me is the use of the movement system). Most of the time when I don't do that, even if its just aim gliding, I sometimes see enemies that I don't hit with the ability, and it frankly feels bad, especially since I tuned my build for lower efficiency in exchange for greater damage.

Every other ability feels good either situationally or in general. I see the debuff on his owl attacks. Wordwarden takes Noctua's Alt-fire regen and ups it to 11. Triumph is Triumph.

Tragedy feels like an unsolved calculation puzzle in my head for which the only optimal response is either to forgo it (what I tend to do), or pull the trigger and hope for the best, because it feels unreliable.

Edited April 17 by Intotsu

[OnestarMike]

5 hours ago, quxier said:

No, I like 4th to do something more.

Shadow blocks LoS check? That's interesting.

I've been playing it for some time. I've not seen major issues with him yet. I've been playing it in Duviri, Netracells and todays Archon hunt. It may be not perfect but big part of what I see is at least damaged.

I still have to play him where he is (near) worthless.

I know it's hard to believe that people have different opinions about him. I'm not on full defend mode about his 4th: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392931-increasing-base-5-m-non-los-check-for-dante-via-certain-actions-stats-of-4thtragedy/

however content I've been playing so far, Dante is 'ok'. I've been even into ~50% damage in group. It can fall into obscurity but other reason, at least for me, would play big role as well:

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1394106-light-verse-very-small-usage-changesbuffs/

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1386385-dante-cast-4th-with-empty-pages-tabula-rasa-augments-devstream-177-commentary/

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392300-dante-4thtrumph-hold-to-cast-at-max-overguard/

.. well, offtopic a little

I don’t understand why we would settle for mediocrity when the initial release was near perfect. Yea he’s okay, but why are we okay with that? 

[quxier]

12 hours ago, Pseudozz said:

13 hours ago, quxier said:

I've been playing it in Duviri, Netracells and todays Archon hunt.

So, you've played him in some of the most expansive maps and claim to not have issues. Lol. 

Maybe duviri or Nira assassination is "expansive"

Netracells, Nira defense aren't. I may be wrong but on release that map had so many routes that I had to go to each enemy to slap them.

16 hours ago, Intotsu said:

17 hours ago, quxier said:

No, I like 4th to do something more.

Shadow blocks LoS check? That's interesting.

I've been playing it for some time. I've not seen major issues with him yet. I've been playing it in Duviri, Netracells and todays Archon hunt. It may be not perfect but big part of what I see is at least damaged.

I still have to play him where he is (near) worthless.

I know it's hard to believe that people have different opinions about him. I'm not on full defend mode about his 4th: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392931-increasing-base-5-m-non-los-check-for-dante-via-certain-actions-stats-of-4thtragedy/

however content I've been playing so far, Dante is 'ok'. I've been even into ~50% damage in group. It can fall into obscurity but other reason, at least for me, would play big role as well:

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1394106-light-verse-very-small-usage-changesbuffs/

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1386385-dante-cast-4th-with-empty-pages-tabula-rasa-augments-devstream-177-commentary/

- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392300-dante-4thtrumph-hold-to-cast-at-max-overguard/

.. well, offtopic a little

Honestly, don't get me wrong, he's fun to play for me. And I get the idea of wanting to balance his massive range with positioning.
The issue I have with using Tragedy (I cast it far, FAR less than I used to) is because as opposed to everything else he does, I need to reduce my playstyle to use it optimally (The main appeal of this game for me is the use of the movement system). Most of the time when I don't do that, even if its just aim gliding, I sometimes see enemies that I don't hit with the ability, and it frankly feels bad, especially since I tuned my build for lower efficiency in exchange for greater damage.

Tragedy feels like an unsolved calculation puzzle in my head for which the only optimal response is either to forgo it (what I tend to do), or pull the trigger and hope for the best, because it feels unreliab

To be honest LoS check makes me do parkour even more. Before LoS check I could just point at general direction and everything dies (if not, just repeat).

Now I need to go to some location, hence more parkour.

LoS messing it to the point of unreliability is not my experience. I don't deny your experience. I just cannot fully relate to it. Sure, if it's in any map that mess you then I would agree with you.

12 hours ago, OnestarMike said:

17 hours ago, quxier said:

 

I don’t understand why we would settle for mediocrity when the initial release was near perfect. Yea he’s okay, but why are we okay with that? 

It wasn't and isn't (near) perfect. It's just, as for Tragedy, it was relaying less on skill. So it "just worked". If you like to just watch enemies dies (or don't, because some weren't visible) then it was "near perfect". If you care more about "skill" then it wasn't "near perfect".

Why we settle for mediocrity? Why "we are okay with that"? Some of us aren't. It's just how this game rolls. We make suggestion or post issues/bugs. Some bugs/issues are fixed. Some are not. Some suggestion are implemented and some aren't. Sometimes frame goes into "great mode". Sometimes you can have part of functionality(ies) removed or so much reduced that it's not worth using. So why we are ok with Current Dante? It's "good enough" for some of us. We know that we won't have 'near perfection'.

[OnestarMike]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Maybe duviri or Nira assassination is "expansive"

Netracells, Nira defense aren't. I may be wrong but on release that map had so many routes that I had to go to each enemy to slap them.

To be honest LoS check makes me do parkour even more. Before LoS check I could just point at general direction and everything dies (if not, just repeat).

Now I need to go to some location, hence more parkour.

LoS messing it to the point of unreliability is not my experience. I don't deny your experience. I just cannot fully relate to it. Sure, if it's in any map that mess you then I would agree with you.

It wasn't and isn't (near) perfect. It's just, as for Tragedy, it was relaying less on skill. So it "just worked". If you like to just watch enemies dies (or don't, because some weren't visible) then it was "near perfect". If you care more about "skill" then it wasn't "near perfect".

Why we settle for mediocrity? Why "we are okay with that"? Some of us aren't. It's just how this game rolls. We make suggestion or post issues/bugs. Some bugs/issues are fixed. Some are not. Some suggestion are implemented and some aren't. Sometimes frame goes into "great mode". Sometimes you can have part of functionality(ies) removed or so much reduced that it's not worth using. So why we are ok with Current Dante? It's "good enough" for some of us. We know that we won't have 'near perfection'.

The problem is that we were already at near perfect and went backwards. Handwaving it as “that’s just how games are” ignores that we already were there, and are now not. If Dante was released with LoS and people were fine with it, then it probably would have never been an issue because we would have never known. But we do know, because it was a thing, and now it’s not. And the solution is a quick and easy fix.

The issues people have stated with tragedy are problems outside of the character itself and would have been solved with minor tweaks to other mechanics such as base damage. Since DE’s current statement was about the range, a range reduction would have been sufficient. There is 0 point at the moment in using mods for range because if you want to kill something with tragedy, you have to be within 5-15m and not be moving a bunch in order for it to consistently work. The movement alone makes an argument for dumping it entirely and just maxing strength for a noctua build (a build that is actually way stronger than pre-nerf tragedy).

I disagree on the skill aspect. It took more skill to move quickly between rooms to tag enemies and then pull off the satisfying explosion. Sure tragedy on star chart is just 334 spam, (which would have been solved with a base damage nerf because that wasn’t the important part of the ability anyway) but in steel path it was far more fluid and fun to play when I could tag multiple rooms if I moved around fast enough and then finish them with tragedy, which I cannot do now. If you disagree with that then I guess we just have fundamental different experiences with the game and how it’s enjoyed which I can’t bridge the gap on.

Suppose it doesn’t matter. Since there hasn’t been a response about this despite the feedback across their medias, I don’t matter and have moved on at this point. I wish you well in the game, but settling for this is a bad direction for the future of Warframe, and I don’t want to be a part of that. 

[quxier]

54 minutes ago, OnestarMike said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe duviri or Nira assassination is "expansive"

Netracells, Nira defense aren't. I may be wrong but on release that map had so many routes that I had to go to each enemy to slap them.

To be honest LoS check makes me do parkour even more. Before LoS check I could just point at general direction and everything dies (if not, just repeat).

Now I need to go to some location, hence more parkour.

LoS messing it to the point of unreliability is not my experience. I don't deny your experience. I just cannot fully relate to it. Sure, if it's in any map that mess you then I would agree with you.

It wasn't and isn't (near) perfect. It's just, as for Tragedy, it was relaying less on skill. So it "just worked". If you like to just watch enemies dies (or don't, because some weren't visible) then it was "near perfect". If you care more about "skill" then it wasn't "near perfect".

Why we settle for mediocrity? Why "we are okay with that"? Some of us aren't. It's just how this game rolls. We make suggestion or post issues/bugs. Some bugs/issues are fixed. Some are not. Some suggestion are implemented and some aren't. Sometimes frame goes into "great mode". Sometimes you can have part of functionality(ies) removed or so much reduced that it's not worth using. So why we are ok with Current Dante? It's "good enough" for some of us. We know that we won't have 'near perfection'.

Expand  

The problem is that we were already at near perfect and went backwards. Handwaving it as “that’s just how games are” ignores that we already were there, and are now not. If Dante was released with LoS and people were fine with it, then it probably would have never been an issue because we would have never known. But we do know, because it was a thing, and now it’s not.

Yeah, this is major issue like Styanax nerfs. Don't give playes features and take it back in week or something. That's just "mean". At least put some info "hey, we are not sure about this ability, it will be probably nerfed a lot so...".

1 hour ago, OnestarMike said:

And the solution is a quick and easy fix.

Solution would be quick & easy but would it be good? Short term reward would be good. Dante would hit more reliably. On other hand long term reward may not be good. Dante were frame, maybe not first, but frame that nukes a lot of stuffs in big enough range. More and more frames would have to do this. There would be other solution to nerf it.

1 hour ago, OnestarMike said:

The issues people have stated with tragedy are problems outside of the character itself and would have been solved with minor tweaks to other mechanics such as base damage

Damage is double edge sword. If you put it too big it makes game boring. Too low - it's useless.

I don't think nerfing damage would be good, imho. But that's at least little subjective.

1 hour ago, OnestarMike said:

Since DE’s current statement was about the range, a range reduction would have been sufficient.

I wonder how much range would reduced. In vacuum (empty place, Tragedy hits all enemies etc) with 45 m (Strength, I let this mod sit here since unlocking Dante but I may remove it)) is good. If I had to use range "just" to use it then honestly I wouldn't like that change.

1 hour ago, OnestarMike said:

I disagree on the skill aspect. It took more skill to move quickly between rooms to tag enemies and then pull off the satisfying explosion.

Now you have to go into more rooms, so that's probably more skills?

1 hour ago, OnestarMike said:

 if I moved around fast enough and then finish them with tragedy, which I cannot do now. If you disagree with that then I guess we just have fundamental different experiences with the game and how it’s enjoyed which I can’t bridge the gap on.

Yeah, I've not done multi room nukes with Dante. So I cannot fully relate. And "room size" would be important as well.

Still some "marking" system would be fine for Tragedy. I and some other user posted about it (they have used Dark werse as marker, afair).

1 hour ago, OnestarMike said:

Suppose it doesn’t matter. Since there hasn’t been a response about this despite the feedback across their medias, I don’t matter and have moved on at this point. I wish you well in the game, but settling for this is a bad direction for the future of Warframe, and I don’t want to be a part of that. 

Game still have good and bad stuff. It still entertain me, at least in some ways. If it's not for you then, yeah, time to move on. Good luck to you too.

[Mr.Holyroller]

I seriously don't understand the argument for Dante not having LoS limit his abilities.

If you gave any other older frame Dante's kit, by today people would just call them overpowered and broken, like how most people talk about Saryn and Octavia, but I guess because so many people were able to get him easily there's a lot of people complaining all of a sudden when a frame isnt completely broken

Edited April 17 by Mr.Holyroller

[vFlitz]

17 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

I seriously don't understand the argument for Dante not having LoS limit his abilities.

If you gave any other older frame Dante's kit, by today people would just call them overpowered and broken, like how most people talk about Saryn and Octavia, but I guess because so many people were able to get him easily there's a lot of people complaining all of a sudden when a frame isnt completely broken

People don't mind LoS being on Dark Verse, they only mind it on Tragedy because it's a long cast time, high cost ability that only really does proper damage against enemies that you set up for it with status.

If LoS randomly fails on Dark Verse, then it carries over to Tragedy even if Tragedy's LoS catches them. If enemies move in between you casting Dark Verse and Tragedy, Tragedy can miss them. Even if they don't move, Tragedy can randomly miss them even though Dark Verse didn't. And it's all even worse if you're also moving yourself. Dante's current condition doubles down on all of LoS inconsistencies, which no other LoS ability in the game does.

Edited April 18 by vFlitz

[Mr.Holyroller]

15 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

People don't mind LoS being on Dark Verse, they only mind it on Tragedy because it's a long cast time, high cost ability that only really does proper damage against enemies that you set up for it with status.

If LoS randomly fails on Dark Verse, then it carries over to Tragedy even if Tragedy's LoS catches them. If enemies move in between you casting Dark Verse and Tragedy, Tragedy can miss them. Even if they don't move, Tragedy can randomly miss them even though Dark Verse didn't. And it's all even worse if you're also moving yourself. Dante's current condition doubles down on all of LoS inconsistencies, which no other LoS ability in the game does.

Pressing 3-3-4 pretty much deletes everything as long as you have the right build.
Throw in 1 or 2 cast speed shards and the cast time becomes irrelevant.

They've continued  to address all of the LoS inconsistency issues, to the extent of also improving LoS for other frames along with Dante.

I played dante for a few hours since last weekend I haven't really encountered any issues with the LoS. I pretty much never stop casting anyways except to refresh tome buffs or nuke eximus/murmur guardians

People are willing to be very dishonest to complain about LoS and Dante. Its concerning

Edited April 18 by Mr.Holyroller

[Darkbring]

On 2024-04-18 at 4:46 PM, Mr.Holyroller said:

Pressing 3-3-4 pretty much deletes everything as long as you have the right build.
Throw in 1 or 2 cast speed shards and the cast time becomes irrelevant.

They've continued  to address all of the LoS inconsistency issues, to the extent of also improving LoS for other frames along with Dante.

I played dante for a few hours since last weekend I haven't really encountered any issues with the LoS. I pretty much never stop casting anyways except to refresh tome buffs or nuke eximus/murmur guardians

People are willing to be very dishonest to complain about LoS and Dante. Its concerning

 

The problem is that LoS feels bad in a game designed for rapid movement across the map that usually made up from interlinked corridor tiles filled with obstructive geometry. People are VERY honest about how bad it feels to use this ability compared to how it was on release. Just because you are OK with these changes doesn't mean the rest of us have to tolerate objectively bad game design.

[Intotsu]

18 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

(1) Pressing 3-3-4 pretty much deletes everything as long as you have the right build.
Throw in 1 or 2 cast speed shards and the cast time becomes irrelevant.

(2) They've continued  to address all of the LoS inconsistency issues, to the extent of also improving LoS for other frames along with Dante.

3) I played dante for a few hours since last weekend I haven't really encountered any issues with the LoS. I pretty much never stop casting anyways except to refresh tome buffs or nuke eximus/murmur guardians

4) People are willing to be very dishonest to complain about LoS and Dante. Its concerning

1) With respect to the effectiveness of the actual ability, when it lands it is universally effective in my experience. Its a matter of if/when it lands or not. See 3 for more details of my own experience.

2) While true, the issue that is presented in the message you're replying to is that both abilities double down on line of sight, meaning any inconsistency with both is exacerbated

3) I recently played Lua fissure survival. most of us were staying around the Arboredum area (with the towers of various heights around a series of 'void tree structures' which, when activated, can give you a bunch of energy). I jumped and aim glided from one of the taller towers to try and see if i could hit as many enemies as possible with how wide the area was with a tragedy combo. There were at least 5 enemies on the lowest level and more coming in from all sides. I hit 3, from the air from as close to the center of the room as I could glide to. 

Now, is his ability powerful when it hits? without a doubt. With preparation and tagging, I was able to almost insta-break the Wraith's bodies if they were tagged in this mode. That is good. But sometimes in situations where it makes no sense for it not to work (like when I'm in the air above a wide area) it just doesnt hit as many people as one expects. And mind you, I have Stretch on an ability that already has a huge AoE. I fully expected to hit more enemies that I could visibly see. Maybe the arbors themselves blocked line of sight enough from above. But the point of this is twofold:

1. It feels bad when you've done all the prep and little/nothing comes of it even when you think you're doing an optimal play (such as trying to position yourself above a large and relatively open area.
2. Because of the above, it is sometimes hard to know when the optimal play is. If I tagged enemies on a balcony and I bullet jump into casting tragedy but it misses the vast majority of them, was it because I cast it too soon? Was it because some piece of architecture blocked my line of sight? Did a larger enemy block line of sight to other enemies? All of these unknowns make it feel sub-optimal in terms of effectiveness, even if the spell itself is insanely strong.

Furthermore, as opposed to Dark Verse, you don't know who you've 'tagged' when casting it. It is only obvious to the extent that they either take massive damage or not. There is no graphic effect to indicate the effect on the enemy so you can test out whether it will hit them ahead of time. Maybe there should be, who knows. But that is the reason why I brought this topic up. Yes there have been improvements, but I think in general its hard to be consistent with Tragedy with Line of Sight in place.

4) With all due respect assumptions of the dishonesty of people having this discussion is not helpful towards its improvement. Yes people have been and continue to complain (A lot), but assigning mal-intent behind their experiences will not help anyone have any sort of productive discussion.

[Mr.Holyroller]

14 minutes ago, Intotsu said:

1) With respect to the effectiveness of the actual ability, when it lands it is universally effective in my experience. Its a matter of if/when it lands or not. See 3 for more details of my own experience.

2) While true, the issue that is presented in the message you're replying to is that both abilities double down on line of sight, meaning any inconsistency with both is exacerbated

3) I recently played Lua fissure survival. most of us were staying around the Arboredum area (with the towers of various heights around a series of 'void tree structures' which, when activated, can give you a bunch of energy). I jumped and aim glided from one of the taller towers to try and see if i could hit as many enemies as possible with how wide the area was with a tragedy combo. There were at least 5 enemies on the lowest level and more coming in from all sides. I hit 3, from the air from as close to the center of the room as I could glide to. 

Now, is his ability powerful when it hits? without a doubt. With preparation and tagging, I was able to almost insta-break the Wraith's bodies if they were tagged in this mode. That is good. But sometimes in situations where it makes no sense for it not to work (like when I'm in the air above a wide area) it just doesnt hit as many people as one expects. And mind you, I have Stretch on an ability that already has a huge AoE. I fully expected to hit more enemies that I could visibly see. Maybe the arbors themselves blocked line of sight enough from above. But the point of this is twofold:

1. It feels bad when you've done all the prep and little/nothing comes of it even when you think you're doing an optimal play (such as trying to position yourself above a large and relatively open area.
2. Because of the above, it is sometimes hard to know when the optimal play is. If I tagged enemies on a balcony and I bullet jump into casting tragedy but it misses the vast majority of them, was it because I cast it too soon? Was it because some piece of architecture blocked my line of sight? Did a larger enemy block line of sight to other enemies? All of these unknowns make it feel sub-optimal in terms of effectiveness, even if the spell itself is insanely strong.

Furthermore, as opposed to Dark Verse, you don't know who you've 'tagged' when casting it. It is only obvious to the extent that they either take massive damage or not. There is no graphic effect to indicate the effect on the enemy so you can test out whether it will hit them ahead of time. Maybe there should be, who knows. But that is the reason why I brought this topic up. Yes there have been improvements, but I think in general its hard to be consistent with Tragedy with Line of Sight in place.

4) With all due respect assumptions of the dishonesty of people having this discussion is not helpful towards its improvement. Yes people have been and continue to complain (A lot), but assigning mal-intent behind their experiences will not help anyone have any sort of productive discussion.

There are definitely times where LoS feels bad, but I truly think it's needed for the game. The range on tragedy is huge, if you could just prime everything and then nuke enemies an entire room over it would be incredibly imbalanced since he also provides overguard. The same reason why Octavia runs into so many nightmares with verticality with her mallet

As Reb said, if people really want no LoS, then the range would definitely have to be reduced.

It's not an assumption of people being dishonest, people are making large swinging statements like "everyone dislikes this" or "DE has never done xyz" etc. it's just exaggeration and hyperbole that doesn't contribute to anything.

There's also more indirect forms of dishonesty like saying "why give tragedy los when maim exists". You're just completely disregarding dantes entire kit in that statement. Equinox wishes it could provide the same defensive support while still using maim to the same degree as Dante. 

Edited April 18 by Mr.Holyroller

[Intotsu]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

There are definitely times where LoS feels bad, but I truly think it's needed for the game. The range on tragedy is huge, if you could just prime everything and then nuke enemies an entire room over it would be incredibly imbalanced since he also provides overguard. The same reason why Octavia runs into so many nightmares with verticality with her mallet

As Reb said, if people really want no LoS, then the range would definitely have to be reduced.

It's not an assumption of people being dishonest, people are making large swinging statements like "everyone dislikes this" or "DE has never done xyz" etc. it's just exaggeration and hyperbole that doesn't contribute to anything 

I put Stretch on Dante because I thought he would have a decently normal range and would need it. It was only due to the nerf and the discussion behind it that i realized that his base range was so huge. So yes, I would find it perfectly reasonable to have a reduced range with no line of sight.

And in order to prime everything and nuke enemies an entire room over without LoS someone else would have to be there applying status effects for you to nuke. The massive range and base damage being high especially for the star chart is why people (like myself) would also be fine if they made it so you had to prime enemies to do damage through Tragedy, removing the base damage that was clearing maps instantly in the Star Chart. Once I realized that the base damage was so high, that was also my thought.

I from the beginning thought that Dante needed a nerf, but I had expected different changes than what they did (adding Line of sight) to preserve the same feel of how you deal damage with him. Heck, even my friend, who I showed Dante to pre-nerf and we both agreed that he needed some sort of nerf was greatly disappointed that they chose to add Line of Sight as opposed to literally anything else. The guy not only has no investment in getting the frame, he has no idea of the crapstorm that the forums has been over this issue and he had the same feeling that people here have: This just makes the frame feel worse and there are better ways of achieving the same goal

[sh0shin]

The combo at significant levels of difficulty is actually 33334 or 3333334 lol 😆

[vFlitz]

2 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

There are definitely times where LoS feels bad, but I truly think it's needed for the game. The range on tragedy is huge, if you could just prime everything and then nuke enemies an entire room over it would be incredibly imbalanced since he also provides overguard. The same reason why Octavia runs into so many nightmares with verticality with her mallet

As Reb said, if people really want no LoS, then the range would definitely have to be reduced.

And ever since she said that there have been countless comments saying 'yes, please do that', to no avail. It's a better solution on all accounts; you can get a better feel for range than you can for LoS checks, you can mod against range limitations and you can't against LoS, it's 100% consistent and all that range is effectively wasted with LoS in place anyway unless you go out to the open world maps.

They'd have to absolutely butcher the range like they had done with Nezha initially to make people more dissatisfied than they are with LoS... which I have some slim hope they wouldn't do, given that they literally just went over it with Nezha.

[Mr.Holyroller]

35 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

And ever since she said that there have been countless comments saying 'yes, please do that', to no avail. It's a better solution on all accounts; you can get a better feel for range than you can for LoS checks, you can mod against range limitations and you can't against LoS, it's 100% consistent and all that range is effectively wasted with LoS in place anyway unless you go out to the open world maps.

They'd have to absolutely butcher the range like they had done with Nezha initially to make people more dissatisfied than they are with LoS... which I have some slim hope they wouldn't do, given that they literally just went over it with Nezha.

We'll have to wait and see what they choose to do.

They said they weren't going to make another kneejerk change and let it sit for a while.

Overall Dante is a W for everyone except for the people being toxic, it's opened up the conversation about ability AOE in general and multiple frames are having their los improved.

Edited April 18 by Mr.Holyroller

[Digital_Malz]

45 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Overall Dante is a W for everyone except for the people being toxic, it's opened up the conversation about ability AOE in general and multiple frames are having their los improved.

I like the way people disregard opposing opinions calling others toxic. Yeah, bro, you’re the guy, you’re good, you’re perfect. Why do you waste time with inferior toxic people?