PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.7

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, TheSteelMushroom said:

This wouldn't be a problem if Deep Archimedea allowed you to rent ones like the circuit does but they don't.

Oooh that is a good point I didn't think of, that's a great idea

[bedainey]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Unowned items will now be indicated as such in the Deep Archimedea Loadout Individual Parameter UI - they will now be marked with a “!” icon and will have the “NOT OWNED” tag in the tooltip. 

Can the game AT LEAST make sure the loadout restriction somehow has one we own per weapon type? I sure wouldn't want to craft a weapon I already sold because I didn't like it, forma, and only use it just once in my lifetime.

[Fashiion]

Yareli Batomorpha helmet is still bugged. It looks like the size was fixed finally, but the textures are still bugged.

[moondog548]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Fixed players getting knocked down every 5 seconds after leaving the Arsenal in a town/Relay when the Negate Mod is equipped on their Wyrm. 

PUT IT BACK! 🥺

[Museigen]

I just remembered that one of the simplest yet greatest fix for AoE spells a Skyrim modder did was to remove LoS for them in the game. Fireball never felt better to use! Great Enai Siaion, a legend!
 

3 hours ago, iSiawPrime said:

Thanks for listening to the community

I feel left out. :(
I guess my comments on Dante were too long winded. Proportional to how much I cared.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I think your argument has a noble sentiment but falls apart in practice

First in foremost, if you're in a position where accessing certain weapons is a genuine difficulty, you're not far enough into the game for Deep Archimedes. Just full stop. Come back in three months and try again.

There are people who get to endgame content at MR0, with the limited roster of weapons that entails. DE specifically made it easier for newer players with lower MR to work their way through the story. MR does not measure skill; it only measures money/time investment. And again, most weapons are purchasable with plat, as are weapon slots. I prefer DE not engage in scummy tactics to encourage spending money, and this is a poor implementation that reflects exactly that. "Hey, you don't own these weapons, so you can't get the maximum reward from the Deep Archimedea this week... unless you reach into those deep pockets of yours and purchase some platinum! Desperate Archon Shards in your Area, access them with your credit card!" The fact that rather than offering loaner builds or only drawing from players' inventories, they went out of their way to add a "You Don't Own This Weapon" tag is not a good sign.

See, Circuit and Duviri at least offer loaner builds, so even if you haven't had the opportunity to purchase grind out a weapon or a frame (imagine grinding like some peasant, ugh), you can still make a go of it with a general (but suboptimal) build. If you can succeed with those on the basis of your skill, great! But it doesn't lock you out of Circuit entirely if you don't win the weapons lottery for that rotation. In fact, if you don't like the RNG assortment they allow you to reset by running through a quick mission in Duviri or Circuit. Here, you're locked in for the week no matter how screwed by RNG you may have been.

EDA is supposed to be a challenge, I get that. In fact, I like EDA so much I've been running it in my spare time to help out people who may have been utterly screwed by their weekly RNG. Thing is, locking people out of that challenge because their lucky numbers didn't come up on the ticket doesn't incentivize so much as it punishes. "Oh, you got rid of that low MR weapon that absolutely sucked to use and even with some forma investment wasn't fun to play with in high level content? Well, %$&# you, you either grind for it again, buy it with plat, or you don't get as much as someone else who spent more money than you, or just got luckier than you were."

You know how people greatly, greatly disliked Kahl, because he forced them to play a slow, clunky grunt with a limited selection of weapons for another Archon Shard and various Archon mods? And Styanax? EDA is like that. It forces people to play with frames and weapons they don't like, to the point that some of them may have sold the weapon in the first place because they didn't want it taking up valuable inventory space. If you get a roll with Khora, Ash, and Nidus, but don't own any of those frames, you can either buy them with plat, buy the prime parts from other players (which may be insanely expensive depending on vaulted status, but that should be fine as long as they have the money and aren't poor), or spend well over a full day of straight grinding in the hopes of getting them built before the week is over, unless you want to spend plat to speed up the foundry time.

But it's not only the case with frame grinds, is it? Because you could get stuck with Sporothrix, Arum Spinosa or Hespar in the mix too. Some of the most painful weapons grinds in the entire game, and expensive to buy outright. But if it's a choice between the Hespar and Arum Spinosa which you don't own, or the Kestrel that you do.... Well, better hope you have a few days off work or a bunch of plat lying around if you want those rewards dangling above your head!

But let's talk about that Kestrel. It's terrible and that illustrates another issue: Some weapons aren't even viable in the content they're being asked to perform. Do you seriously think a player is going to get anywhere with the Stug or Bolto, even if they wasted the 6 plat to hold onto it after maxing it for MR? Does the Dera Vandal really have what it takes to take on Rogue Voidrigs? But if those are the only weapons they own in rotation that week, that's what they have to use if they want to get the rewards. It doesn't even reward having a maxed out stable of frames and weapons, in that case, because regardless you can still get utterly screwed with the weapons you're given, at which point leeching is part and parcel of the mode.

I've already encountered That One Revenant, and it's similar to the old Inaros Problem. He couldn't get by with the frames that he had, so he chose the one frame he knew could survive to the end, even if he couldn't/didn't contribute much to success. The thought process: "Oh, man, all my weapons are S#&$ty, and none of my frames are really good for the missions and modifiers, but I can bring my Revenant and get carried by people who got luckier than I did. Sucks to be me, sucks to be them, but at least I'll get the top rewards even if I'm forcing a squad of 4 to play like a squad of 3."

But I'm starting to ramble, so let's move on.

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Secondly, your argument partly relies on the bad faith that I'm telling you to keep the MK1-Bo AND the Bo AND the Bo Prime, waste a whole three weapon slots -- which is patently ridiculous, that's why you're doing it, you need to do it in order to paint me with the "500 weapon slots" argument, when there are less than 200 weapons you need in order to guarantee you satisfy Deep Archimedes. Between login bonuses (4 free slots every 50 days), Nightwave (2 free slots), yearly anniversary (3 free slots after the first year), not to mention all the quest items that don't take up slots

Call it 200 weapons, then. That's still 20 slots from Nightwave, if they'd started when Nightwave first began. Call it another 50-odd slots from Twitch drops, login bonuses, and anniversary slots. That's a little over 1/3 of the ~200 weapons slots number. And that's still sidestepping the issue that you're requiring people to invest time, energy, and money into weapons that they dislike in a game. Yes, yes, I know poor people aren't allowed to have spare time or fun, but games are supposed to be about having fun. I know optimizing the fun out of Warframe is all the rage these days, but come on. This isn't something that risks significant power creep and warrants nerfs, like Dante or the AOE meta (which still isn't dead!). Further, this doesn't address the fact that even with a full inventory of weapons and frames the RNG can screw you and whoever is running with you, through no real fault of your own.

Better balance would come from additional modifiers rather than forcing players to use things they don't want to use, either explicitly or implicitly. The Murmur's health type was a step in the right direction, as was adding all the additional difficulty modifiers. Cynically adding a lottery that has options like "You don't own this so you're locked out of the top rewards for this week unless you pay" or "You do own this but it's not good enough to compete at this level" is not good balance.

Difficult content that is rewarding is fantastic, and generally I really enjoy EDA. I liked being able to try weapons I didn't own in Circuit, even if it got so annoying seeing the Kompressa over and over that I went and ground out the Ventkids just so I never have to see that stupid bubble gun again I swear to Christ!

Anyway.

Good balance comes from being able to play around the difficulty, not pay around it.

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

And if you still think that's too much... well it's probably because on our opposing views on instant gratification. I will unironically tell you to collect weapon slots for a year, because that's the kind of game Warframe is to me. I'm not here for the sprint, or the marathon. I'm here for the Appalachian Trail

I understood the Dante nerfs because I dislike instant gratification and bad balance decisions, and I still think he trivializes content to an absurd level. I also don't think that "Just pay more money and invest more time if you want to play, poors," is a sufficient or reasonable answer to forcing people to play with RNG loadouts featuring weapons they either dislike and got rid of, or haven't had the opportunity to acquire, or had to sell because they can't justify spending more time/money on their leisure activity when rent is coming due. Not to mention that many of those 200 weapons simply aren't viable with all the difficulty modifiers applied in EDA. The less like a slot machine gacha game DE can be, the better, but adding "You don't own this!" while dangling top tier rewards over players' heads is not encouraging. Difficulty and grinding are fine. The predatory nature of the RNG loadouts WITHOUT the loaner builds is not, even setting aside the other flaws in the system. Generally, I'm willing to trust DE on matters related to balance in the belief that they won't engage in scummy business practices if they have a choice. This is not one of those areas that makes me optimistic.

Edited April 17 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[moondog548]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Unowned items will now be indicated as such in the Deep Archimedea Loadout Individual Parameter UI - they will now be marked with a “!” icon and will have the “NOT OWNED” tag in the tooltip. 

• The tag will only appear if you do not own the specific item shown or any of its variants. 

 

The random selection of gear for more points isn't a bad mechanic (despite all the loud whining), but it absolutely needs to be improved in implementation.

 

In other aspects of the game that use a similar mechanic, there are mitigating factors to offset the limitation. The OPPOSITE is true in THIS game mode, however.

So you rrally gotta add a 4th option of each and/or get rid of the possibility of drawing a weapon you don't own, or something to make it less restrictive of a week-long requirement.

[Styx_Prime]

Nice! 👍

[KaosKuantico]

Again, while I appreciate the improvements in LoS, take it away from Dante

[MetalGrayFox]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I have to say, speak for yourself. Because I have kept EVERY weapon family in the game since they were released. The only, literally ONLY thing I don't own is the Miter, because I crafted it to a Panthera, and sold that when Panthera Prime came out

So I truly believe you only have yourself to blame for this

Bro really said just farm and keep everything and you're good. If you didn't do that, blame yourself.

 

Is this really the mentality of players? This restricts the content for no real reason outside of time gates and collection. What is the point of an elite mode where the best reward potential comes down to how much you can hoard? Nothing to do with skill, and not something to be defended as it clearly is a form of FOMO to make players spend money/plat.

 

Are players meant to grind the whole game before playing Deep/Elite Archimedea in your world?

The game should just give the player the weapons to use if they do not own it, so they can fill the requirement and not be locked out for silly reasons like 'should have started XYZ years ago and just farmed everything on release'.

 

[VoyrenTV]

Posts saying Dante is good or better now - 10 Upvotes average (Half of which are DE themselves)

Posts saying 'revert LoS on Dante/XYFrame' Dante is bad/unusable/'trash' - 100 Upvotes average

 

Is the majority of the community so worthless that it's not even needed to listen to them at all?
Is this some kind of railjack thing? Where DE thinks they know it better so they force it?
All i can do is shake my head at that.

Sure, you improved stuff, but the main reason for all the negative feedback wasn't touched - At all.

Edited April 18 by VoyrenTV

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, MetalGrayFox said:

Bro really said just farm and keep everything and you're good. If you didn't do that, blame yourself.

Is this really the mentality of players?

Are players meant to grind the whole game before playing Deep/Elite Archimedea in your world?

Unironically yes. Why wouldn't it be? It's what you signed up for. Deep Archimedes is literally the last possible thing you can access in the game. You might as well ask me "bro really suggesting I play levels 1 through 7 before playing level 8?" 

------

36 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

There are people who get to endgame content at MR0, with the limited roster of weapons that entails. DE specifically made it easier for newer players with lower MR to work their way through the story. MR does not measure skill; it only measures money/time investment.

I never said MR, that was you. I just said "If you're in a position where grinding weapons is a problem" with no mention of MR. Any problems you have with MR are yours alone

37 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Thing is, locking people out of that challenge because their lucky numbers didn't come up on the ticket doesn't incentivize so much as it punishes. "Oh, you got rid of that low MR weapon that absolutely sucked to use and even with some forma investment wasn't fun to play with in high level content? Well, %$&# you, you either grind for it again, buy it with plat, or you don't get as much as someone else who spent more money than you, or just got luckier than you were."

I literally do not perceive the problem like this.

First: As mentioned above, Deep Archimedes is meant for players who have played everything else already. You farmed it the first time, you knew how easy or hard it would be to get back. You knew the cost of a Forma. So if you threw anything away, that's on you.

Second: It's not like the time window is super strict. It's 128 hours. Weapons cost 12 hours to craft, farm it up to 30 on Hydron or ESO (you can access those, right? You're not just rushing to Deep Archimedes without doing everything else first, right?) two or three times, you can get that weapon back by Thursday if you really need to

------

3 minutes ago, VoyrenTV said:

Is the majority of the community so worthless that it's not even needed to listen to them at all?

The impasse is complete, absolute, and immovable. To wit:

Players want LoS gone

DE want LoS to remain

There is no compromise, or negotiation, or convincing. DE are the pharaohs, and you are not. The discussion of Dante's LoS ends there whether you like it or not (and I'm not telling you to like it)

[cubicool]

4 hours ago, Egglanoir said:

Voidrigs Necraweb doesn't work, it won't throw the canister.

I noticed it before this hotfix, and tried it again after this hotfix to see if it was fixed but the issue is still there. It just kind of stays in your necromech's hand when you try to throw it, It does the animation, but doesn't actually throw it. This effectively makes this ability do nothing right now, other than give you the prompt to throw it (Which won't go away). 

I don't know how long it's been an issue for, all I do know is that it was an issue that existed in both the last hotfix and this hotfix.

So please take a look at Voidrigs Necraweb. It needs a fix.

 

Also seconding this. Furthermore, the bugged state will also prevent any subsequent melee from working (that is, after you attempt to use his #1).

[Kerlism]

On 2024-04-17 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Unowned items will now be indicated as such in the Deep Archimedea Loadout Individual Parameter UI - they will now be marked with a “!” icon and will have the “NOT OWNED” tag in the tooltip.

Okay... so if this is truly a test of my arsenal than why can it pick things I don't have? It shouldn't really be this hard to have the options for DA pick from stuff you own if you're gonna force this level of random bs into it. Turns my options for the weekly points I need to be less of a choice and more of an illusion of choice, not cool.

 

Also there being literally nothing about Dante kinda has your team looking like complete clowns atm. He's arguably more stationary and awkward than ever before, moving around risks missing a target you've hit with Dark Verse, which was and still already is a lower range, LoS ability. You are therefore encouraged to move around to hit things with DV before Tragedy, and now that very active playstyle is dead. OG generation on him now feels sluggish and requires so much energy and casting time that it feels lacking on him, meanwhile Styanax does it just as well alongside sharing it with teammates and dealing damage while doing it. Revert LoS and heavily reduce the base damage of Tragedy, revert his OG number "tweaks". #unbinddante

[Roble_Viejo]

This is what you guys accomplished by nerfing Dante's Tragedy (4) instead of his Dark Page (3)
 

 

[iSiawPrime]

1 hour ago, Museigen said:

I guess my comments on Dante were too long winded. Proportional to how much I cared.

I only took the short-ish Popular Posts on the first week of the fix xD , I purposedly ignored long messages since this image originally was for a friend only.

 

2 hours ago, Salty_Saitama said:

Wow, that's all 20 people that play the game! 

Those are 20 posts with multiple people agreeing on what they're saying enough for this own forum to recognize them as "Popular Posts", there are also hundred of pages of mostly the same kind of comment, people who are mad at the LoS that is still so bad that the detonator of a skill chain misses targets that the primer doesn't

I decided to go for a small sample for the reason I quoted above, but if you're so keen on turning a blind eye anyone could easily do a much bigger sample and show the amount of people who aren't happy with a frame being nerfed a week after release and being sold the solution slowly over time for a problem DE made.

[AlfonsoGP]

Yeah bu t when you gonna improve the performance of the game 😒

[CptDieabettess420]

Would it be out of the question to see if we can get a rework on the endless round bonuses for fissures to try an help get better drops? Like you know every round an such we clear we normally get like 25% to drop chance an credits an such which on steelpath its kinda redundant but it would be nice to up the chances on silver an gold reward drops since even if their rad we still seem to get mainly bronze?

Had to edit im sorry thought it didnt post forgot there were 4 pages 😂

 

Edited April 18 by CptDieabettess420

[Galexivity]

#UnbindDante

[L3512]

6 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Thats gonna screw future strategies for EDA a bit (spectre and mechs being affected),

Actually it'll (hopefully) fuel Mech rage so you'll have 100% uptime for Arquebex.

Eh energy drain, how fun.

Edited April 18 by L3512

[Neightrix]

Feeling blindsided by the Pull nerf

[RacerDelux]

Marked for Death really needs LoS fixes as well...

It feels REALLY bad sometimes. Like... I can cast it on an enemy and kill then, but the guy a little to my right behind a half height wall doesn't get it.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

32 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I never said MR, that was you. I just said "If you're in a position where grinding weapons is a problem" with no mention of MR. Any problems you have with MR are yours alone

I'll explain: MR represents a limitation on a player's weapons roster and frames. It's a bit like a credit score. If yours isn't high enough, you won't be able to get good loans, or in this case, weapons and frames. Does that help? Anyway, the point is that players with limited rosters of weapons and frames are able to get to Whispers In The Walls and Deep Archimedea. Unlike Circuit, however, they are actively punished for not having all of the weapons/frames or for being cost effective about their limited weapon/frame slots.

It's a bit like how the poors will keep using an old pair of boots or won't get the latest I-Phone on release day despite having the three prior generations of IPhone at home, basically. They haven't bought enough phone slots or slots for new boots, so they have to be discerning about what they have.

Bear in mind, Deep Archimedea gives a valuable, highly limited set of rewards; if you miss a week, you're missing out on Archon Shards, Melee Arcanes, etc. that you will never be able to make back through grinding. You can't grind out Archon Shards or Legendary Melee arcanes, after all. Every week you miss is a week you lose out on for purposes of maxing out your builds, finishing your melee arcanes. If you could grind out EDA this would be a moot point, but as it stands only one run counts: the last one. Much like how if you don't buy the dip on your stocks, you can't go back in time to that low price when the stocks go up later.

34 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I literally do not perceive the problem like this.

I am aware you have perception problems relating to people without money, yes. You also seem to have difficulty perceiving the points that you have no answer to.

36 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

First: As mentioned above, Deep Archimedes is meant for players who have played everything else already. You farmed it the first time, you knew how easy or hard it would be to get back. You knew the cost of a Forma. So if you threw anything away, that's on you.

Just because players have passed the necessary story missions does not mean that they have everything in the game. Right now, you have access to every quest at MR7, but you only need... actually, it looks like they entirely removed MR locks for the story quests, so you can be an MR3 and hypothetically speedrun your way to Whispers in the Wall. Huh, that's neat. So, obviously, there are players who do not have every weapon who through no fault of their own beyond a desire to play the story, who have no lack of skill, and can be locked out. And even if they had all the weapons and the money and the slots for it, there's plenty of weapons that simply cannot perform at that level, even IF you were to invest 7 forma and buy a god-tier riven for them. The usually cited example is the Stug, but there's plenty of others. You're honestly expecting every player to invest 7 forma, a riven, and the time to max out a given weapon, even if it's a weapon that's insufficient or that they actively dislike, because.... what? "%$%& you poors, I got mine! Pull yourself up by your credit card bootstraps!"

But man, I'm kinda jealous. Not only do you have money, but you can see the future and know that that MR fodder weapon that can barely swat Level 60 enemies would come in handy 7 years later!

36 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Second: It's not like the time window is super strict. It's 128 hours. Weapons cost 12 hours to craft, farm it up to 30 on Hydron or ESO (you can access those, right? You're not just rushing to Deep Archimedes without doing everything else first, right?) two or three times, you can get that weapon back by Thursday if you really need to

SOME weapons cost 12 hours to craft. Others take 24, or longer if they require producing separate parts blueprints or additional grinding for resources. 128 hours, let's take away 40 of that because some people have to work for a living. Alright, so realistically it's 88 hours. Well, people need to sleep; can't be driving for Uber and delivering your Starbucks ALL the time, after all! So cut that down another, oh, we'll be nice and give the poor wage earner a decent 8 hours of sleep a night, leaving us with... oh! Okay, 32 hours. That's PLENTY of time. We'll assume they need about 2 hours a day to cook, eat, use the bathroom, so on, that's... oof, alright, 18 hours. So, about 2.5 hrs a day left for Warframe.

How long is the grind for Khora, again? Ash? Nidus? Citrine?

Good thing we can just leave the foundry running after buying the prime parts for platinum! Or skip the grinding by buying directly from the in-game market! But if you're poor and on shift earlier in the week, probably best to just buy some plat so you can rush things. Money makes everything so much easier!

But setting aside the travails of people with jobs, family, so on. What about the leeching problem? The weak weapons, the cynical drive towards buying platinum and forma and catalysts for weapons and frames that players previously decided weren't worth keeping? Aren't those issues worth addressing? Or is that only an issue for other people, you know, those people. People without money. Poors.

[L3512]

2 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

've already encountered That One Revenant, and it's similar to the old Inaros Problem. He couldn't get by with the frames that he had, so he chose the one frame he knew could survive to the end, even if he couldn't/didn't contribute much to success. The thought process: "Oh, man, all my weapons are S#&$ty, and none of my frames are really good for the missions and modifiers, but I can bring my Revenant and get carried by people who got luckier than I did. Sucks to be me, sucks to be them, but at least I'll get the top rewards even if I'm forcing a squad of 4 to play like a squad of 3."

The one saving grace in that situation is the Operator. You can spam Lockdown and caustic strike to strip armour and at least try and help your team, but hey there is a modifier that disables that too lol.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

5 minutes ago, L3512 said:

The one saving grace in that situation is the Operator. You can spam Lockdown and caustic strike to strip armour and at least try and help your team, but hey there is a modifier that disables that too lol.

Absolutely a fair point, but I don't think I saw this guy go spoiler mode even once the whole time aside from rushing between the Mirror Defense objectives. And yeah, that modifier sucks, but at least the passives like Vazarin's instant revives still work.