players complaning about randomized loadouts for deep archamidea

[(PSN)robotwars7]

13 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

OP, you've got 2 active topics in General Discussion right now, and both of them are you telling other people not to express opinions that are different than yours.  Don't be that guy.

If other people have different opinions about a video game than you do...that's perfectly fine, friend.

And if for whatever reason you can no longer stand reading those opinions, that's probably a sign that you're in too deep and could use a break.  Rather than trying to police what others express, just take care of yourself by taking a breather and building yourself back up.  By taking the chance to come up for air when you need it, you'll be able to recover until you can once again tolerate reading that someone feels differently than you about a video game.  And when that happens, everyone wins.

nope, this is far too reasonable and logical, get out of here with this crap, RABBLERABBLERABBLE /s

personally I don't mind the randomized loadouts, since I've invested in a lot fof gear. I do think some of the modifiers *could* be tweaked a little though, or maybe throw in just one small positive modifier so it doesn't feel like you're being thrown to the wolves if your rolls are all bad lol.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

58 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Hmmm, this is true my post was more so venting from Duviri, rather than the newest game mode. I’m glad you can still get the main rewards. 
I guess, building off of my poor claim… how is random considered challenging? That’s what I truly dislike about it. Random is not challenging… 

It is a challenge...but it is not necessarily difficult (for some of us, at least). I think  this is where most of the discussions get a little mixed up, IMO. Challenge and difficulty are not the same, particularly difficulty because it's subjective and dynamic. The challenge is simply "can you do this with just this and that?". I would say EDA vs DA would be a better discussion on difficulty. 

Edited April 22 by (PSN)GEN-Son_17
Grammar error

[Aruquae]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

It is a challenge...but it is not necessarily difficult (for some of us, at least). I think  this is where most of the discussions get a little mixed up, IMO. Challenge and difficulty are not the same, particularly difficulty because it's subjective and dynamic. The challenge is simply "can you do this with just this and that?". I would say EDM vs DM would be a better discussion on difficulty. 

AH YES
YOU'RE RIGHT
I'm talking about wanting difficulty... not challenge.. and your argument was about challenge, not difficulty... whereas mine was simply confusing the two

Yep, I see what you mean now. From a "challenge" perspective, it's living up to it

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

18 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

>perfectly acceptable

To you, maybe.

Challenge #1: Can you clear Deep Archimedean?

Yep, challenge accepted!

Challenge #2: Can you complete DA with maybe a specific set of primaries, secondaries, melees OR warframes?

Uhhh, sure, let's do it!

Challenge #3: How about choosing your ENTIRE loadout based on what we offer?

Dang...the whole loadout? Aight, Lego!!

Challenge #4: Sooo....how about do that in ELITE DA!?!? HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!

Son of a....screw it, I'm in!!

All of the above are the challenges DA offers. Whether any of them are difficult, convenient, ideal or fun, is 100% subjective. What is not subjective is whether or not they are challenges.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

AH YES
YOU'RE RIGHT
I'm talking about wanting difficulty... not challenge.. and your argument was about challenge, not difficulty... whereas mine was simply confusing the two

Yep, I see what you mean now. From a "challenge" perspective, it's living up to it

Believe me, I'm with ya on the difficulty thing. I always have a hard time trying to figure out what would that difficulty look like without pissing off the main playerbase. My only thought would be to introduce a retro Warframe mode, where we don't have shield gating and maybe our operators have Lavos style ability cooldown timers. That would force us to rethink a lot of our setups and beef up defenses and utilities like status proc reducers.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

11 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Challenge #1: Can you clear Deep Archimedean?

Yep, challenge accepted!

Challenge #2: Can you complete DA with maybe a specific set of primaries, secondaries, melees OR warframes?

Uhhh, sure, let's do it!

Challenge #3: How about choosing your ENTIRE loadout based on what we offer?

Dang...the whole loadout? Aight, Lego!!

Challenge #4: Sooo....how about do that in ELITE DA!?!? HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!

Son of a....screw it, I'm in!!

All of the above are the challenges DA offers. Whether any of them are difficult, convenient, ideal or fun, is 100% subjective. What is not subjective is whether or not they are challenges.

Ah yes, the ol' antics with semantics instead of an actual point.

[Stormandreas]

14 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Agreed, and this is why I like the optional challenges associated with DA and EDA. To be able to get things faster should come with a consequence to push through. Whether that consequence is beneficial or not is as subjective as it gets, but the fact we can't use our comfort setups to get the rewards from this single, high end game mode is cool. 

I agree getting more rewards from a hard mode is good.

I disagree that not being able to use our own setups on a high end gamemode is cool. Go into any other MMO and this isn't a thing. (WF is classed as an MMO due to the fact we all connect to the same servers at the same time, in large quantities)

While we do have comfort setups, being told "You spent all this time getting your perfect builds that you enjoy using? Too bad, you're not allowed to use that, or your backups. You use what we tell you to use". That doesn't feel good for most people, especially anyone who's casual or is not confident/proficient with the choices they are given.
It's also unreasonable to expect all players to keep everything in the game in their inventory. Just because a small few of us have done so, doesn't mean that's what 95% of players will do.

[Stormandreas]

22 hours ago, Rathalio said:

I mean a lot of people are frustrated to see they can't do it and claim all the rewards. Although at the same time they are not missing any special loot, they can do 2 more netracells instead, same rewards. Of course, it's a bit better to do deep archimedea, but the game mode needs to have a reason to exist too. It's still the same rewards though, and I think this reality is really overlooked in the complaints unfortunately.

 

20 hours ago, Rathalio said:

It's not the same quantities but still the same rewards. DA isn't gatekeeping anything. DA also needs a reason to exist. It's normal that it's more efficient to do the more difficult mission. Just like when you built a good and efficient farming warframe & weapons and get your stuff overall faster than the average player. Being able to complete archimedea is more efficient and faster when you are ready to do it. Yet you can still access to everything from this game mode without even playing it. (Apart from a one time funky ship decoration, yes.)

You said you get the same rewards doing 2 netracells.

You do not.

Getting 8 rewards =/= getting 5 rewards, whether the drop tables are similar or not (btw, they aren't).

Only the first 2 rewards for DA are the same as the 2 Netracells you would do.
The 3rd and 4th Reward has higher chances for Tauforged shards
The 5th Reward removes normal shards and Melee Adaptors, so you can only get a Legendary arcane or TF Archon shard.

The rewards are not the same.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Rathalio said:

It's not the same quantities but still the same rewards. DA isn't gatekeeping anything. DA also needs a reason to exist. It's normal that it's more efficient to do the more difficult mission. Just like when you built a good and efficient farming warframe & weapons and get your stuff overall faster than the average player. Being able to complete archimedea is more efficient and faster when you are ready to do it. Yet you can still access to everything from this game mode without even playing it. (Apart from a one time funky ship decoration, yes.)

DA is gate keeping since it is effectively a time gate. If you consider the numbers I posted it is alot of missed shards that the player will never be able to catch up on. If shards were available 24/7 and the farm simply resulted in time spent, the method of getting them wouldnt matter. Getting them faster or slower would eventually still net you the same amount. But with the gate on the content, the rewards end up being different between the activities. This isnt like jumping into disruption and being able to run rota C for hours to get an item quicker in comparison to the guy that needs to jump out earlier, because there the player playing shorter will still end up with the same amount if he plays a bit more than the other guy.

Though I dont think cells should be as awarding as DA. What I think is that DA should be set up differently, so someone can do it slower through more runs in a week as opposed to someone that can do it all in one run.

[Xenevier]

i dont really care either way cuz you can always just do netracells instead, so theres an alternative option, but having mirror defence in a heavily nerfed and randomized loadout mode is just like taking care of a toddler who blows up if you leave them for 1 second(the defence crystal) but the problem is with the duration nerf one, you have to basically use weapons to stop enemies and if you dont get good weapons, you cannot stop enemies

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

I agree getting more rewards from a hard mode is good.

I disagree that not being able to use our own setups on a high end gamemode is cool. Go into any other MMO and this isn't a thing. (WF is classed as an MMO due to the fact we all connect to the same servers at the same time, in large quantities)

While we do have comfort setups, being told "You spent all this time getting your perfect builds that you enjoy using? Too bad, you're not allowed to use that, or your backups. You use what we tell you to use". That doesn't feel good for most people, especially anyone who's casual or is not confident/proficient with the choices they are given.
It's also unreasonable to expect all players to keep everything in the game in their inventory. Just because a small few of us have done so, doesn't mean that's what 95% of players will do.

Yes...but I would agree if the entire high end part of Warframe was based on Deep Archimedean. So far though, we only have 3 game modes that offer this: Sortie, Circuit and Deep Archimedean. The rest of the entire game, from beginning to high end, allows full arsenal choice and usage. This is why I'm hellbent on making sure "challenge " stays within its definition. It's a special contest within Whispers, and the Circuit was a part of Duviri, each with special rewards to match. 

To an extent, I think it's unfair that we try to restrict DE from creating new modes for us to try out. It was this type of experimentation that got us over 10 years of play and enough variety to beat out every other game. I say let's at least try to get a laugh and the challenge of trying an unfamiliar loadout and see what we can do! 

[Trollocaustic]

On 2024-04-22 at 9:10 AM, Stormandreas said:

Players complaining about players giving constructive criticism to improve the games flow and be allowed to use the gear they want with interesting, challenging content

Can you not? Thanks.

Hard content is not "go grind for stuff for 300 hours, and then we tell you you can't use it". 

You're missing the entire point of the criticism. It is about Randomized loadout not actually making things hard, it makes it unfun and offputting.
Most players do not want to buy 500 slots for Weapons.
Most players do not want to have all 57 warframes in their inventory at all times.
Most players do not want to have to invest tens of thousands of forma into gear just to make sure they have some usable weapons.

It's unreasonable to ask or expect this of players. The fact Deep Archimedian does not do a check on the player to make sure it provides at least 1 item in each loadout slot that the player even owns is bad. That is the bare minimum for a system like this. The way it currently is, players can be fully locked out of the gamemode, simply because they didn't want to invest unreasonable amounts of time and resources into keeping and building everything in the game.

There are solutions, like the one I mentioned.
Others are, having Elite archi remove the need for the random loadouts, but providing extra challenge, such as no knockdowns AT ALL and level 2k+ enemies, then we have something interesting.
Give both Deep Archis the ability to get all rewards, but each has their own restrictions. Either you engage in the random loadouts, or you take curated loadouts and have to fight much, MUCH harder enemies.

It's a good idea to seperate the idea that Criticism = mindless complaining. The two are not the same.

What I highlighted in bold is what bothers me most. I've gotten Citrine rolled 3 weeks in a row and if it weren't for me caving buying her with platinum (thanks to her sh*tty grind unaffected by resource boosters) in the week prior to Deep Archimedea, I'd be SoL as my WF options were pretty crappy. Hell, even with her its been challenging because all of my personal modifiers directly affected her gameplay loop such as "no pickup on health orbs" and "duration reduced to 75%" which is manageable up until Assassination where she is effectively rendered useless.

[Stormandreas]

17 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Yes...but I would agree if the entire high end part of Warframe was based on Deep Archimedean. So far though, we only have 3 game modes that offer this: Sortie, Circuit and Deep Archimedean. The rest of the entire game, from beginning to high end, allows full arsenal choice and usage. This is why I'm hellbent on making sure "challenge " stays within its definition. It's a special contest within Whispers, and the Circuit was a part of Duviri, each with special rewards to match. 

To an extent, I think it's unfair that we try to restrict DE from creating new modes for us to try out. It was this type of experimentation that got us over 10 years of play and enough variety to beat out every other game. I say let's at least try to get a laugh and the challenge of trying an unfamiliar loadout and see what we can do! 

Another reply in a different thread said it perfect.

To paraphrase, "Modes like Circuit and DA don't push our strongest builds. They demand we simply collect things which is not what most define as "endgame" or "high level" content."

No-one is restricting DE from making new modes, but the feedback on randomized loadouts has been extremely negative. We saw this in Duviri, they doubled down by keeping the system (though improving it for only Duviri), and then triple downed with DA which is certainly ruffling some feathers. Combine that with the recent controversies DE has been scrutinized for with Heirlooms, Monetization, balancing etc. and it doesn't paint a good picture ngl.

Sortie generally gets a pass because the only restriction is "Shotgun only" or "sniper only" which leaves it widely open ended for players to pick whichever one of those weapons they want. It's not, "Tigris only", it's "Shotgun only". If you want to use a Tigris, go ahead! Maybe an Astilla? SURE THING!
That is why no-one complains about sorties loadout restriction vs Duviri or DA.

For the most part, WF didn't do anything overly crazy in the beginning. It was simply a 3rd person, looter shooter with procedurally generated tilesets. It was the combination of already pre-established ideas, plus the unique modding system, that gave Warframe it's edge in the beginning.
Now, it's the modding system, ability to make personalised loadouts, flashy abilities/visuals and power fantasy.

Removing any of those rips a large chunk out of what the game is. Randomizing loadouts does just that. It removes the personalized loadouts, and then directly removes part of the power fantasy (as players begin feeling far more restricted than usual).

[ECCHOSIERRA]

23 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

Another reply in a different thread said it perfect.

To paraphrase, "Modes like Circuit and DA don't push our strongest builds. They demand we simply collect things which is not what most define as "endgame" or "high level" content."

No-one is restricting DE from making new modes, but the feedback on randomized loadouts has been extremely negative. We saw this in Duviri, they doubled down by keeping the system (though improving it for only Duviri), and then triple downed with DA which is certainly ruffling some feathers. Combine that with the recent controversies DE has been scrutinized for with Heirlooms, Monetization, balancing etc. and it doesn't paint a good picture ngl.

Sortie generally gets a pass because the only restriction is "Shotgun only" or "sniper only" which leaves it widely open ended for players to pick whichever one of those weapons they want. It's not, "Tigris only", it's "Shotgun only". If you want to use a Tigris, go ahead! Maybe an Astilla? SURE THING!
That is why no-one complains about sorties loadout restriction vs Duviri or DA.

For the most part, WF didn't do anything overly crazy in the beginning. It was simply a 3rd person, looter shooter with procedurally generated tilesets. It was the combination of already pre-established ideas, plus the unique modding system, that gave Warframe it's edge in the beginning.
Now, it's the modding system, ability to make personalised loadouts, flashy abilities/visuals and power fantasy.

Removing any of those rips a large chunk out of what the game is. Randomizing loadouts does just that. It removes the personalized loadouts, and then directly removes part of the power fantasy (as players begin feeling far more restricted than usual).

What gets me about the randomization controversy is that people defending it, invariably point to "but muh challenge".

 

The thing id, it doesnt freaking matter. 

If I'm playing circuit I can literally pick any three weapons and do absolutely *nothing* to attack enemies with them and 99.999% of the time whomever I get matched with is gonna naturally drag me across the finish line to at least a few rounds. 

And decrees being so powerful killshots any remaining argument for "but its supposed to be harder that way". 

The only real question is how annoying is the run gonna be. 

 

And if DE wants to stick to their guns fine i'll just continue to not touch the mode unless god forbid theres a new incarnon i care about then i'll go back to not caring.

 

[Himerance]

On 2024-04-22 at 2:32 PM, spider_enigma said:

People just want to cheese the mode rather then do the intended and collect everything for mastery

Go back to complaining about line of sight OR start building weapons.

The "intended" sucks. Getting new weapons isn't a fun activity: It consists of waiting 24 hours and wasting time in elite sanctuary.

I would rather pretend Deep Archimedea doesn't exist than spend god knows how many hours doing a mind-numbingly dumb activity. Therein lies the problem. Deep Archimedea caters to a small percentage of the playerbase and has a monumental ask to be part of that percent. No sane person is going to craft every single weapon and put a catalyst and formas on them just so they can enjoy Deep Archimedea.

The longevity of a game is not tied to it's ability to retain veteran players but by it's ability to attract new ones.

I wish Deep Archimedea would be more in the lines of: here's a loadout and an assortment of mods, can you make this work? Whether you have the mods, weapons or warframes wouldn't be playing a role. Would love something like that. Probably because I also love roguelikes games.

Edited April 26 by Himerance

[Psianide73]

23 minutes ago, Himerance said:

The "intended" sucks. Getting new weapons isn't a fun activity: It consists of waiting 24 hours and wasting time in elite sanctuary.

I would rather pretend Deep Archimedea doesn't exist than spend god knows how many hours doing a mind-numbingly dumb activity. Therein lies the problem. The activity caters to a small percentage of the playerbase and has a monumental ask to be part of that percent. No sane person is going to craft every single weapon and put a catalyst and formas on them just so they can enjoy Deep Archimedea.

The longevity of a game is not tied to it's ability to retain veteran players but by it's ability to attract new ones.

I wish Deep Archimedea would be more in the lines of: here's a loadout and an assortment of mods, can you make this work? Whether you have the mods, weapons or warframes wouldn't be playing a role. Would love something like that. Probably because I also love roguelikes games.

Speak for yourself. Collecting and experimenting with lots of different gear is a big part of the games enjoyment for me.

[Himerance]

9 minutes ago, Psianide73 said:

Speak for yourself. Collecting and experimenting with lots of different gear is a big part of the games enjoyment for me.

Where did I say experimenting isn't fun?

[Psianide73]

2 hours ago, Himerance said:

Where did I say experimenting isn't fun?

You don't want to level weapons, let alone experiment with them.

[Himerance]

17 minutes ago, Psianide73 said:

You don't want to level weapons, let alone experiment with them.

Leveling weapons: spending time doing elite sanctuary over and over again.

Experimenting: coming up with interesting ideas for a build and then see those ideas in action.

Why would you assume someone couldn't like one without the other? 😂😂😂

[Psianide73]

41 minutes ago, Himerance said:

Leveling weapons: spending time doing elite sanctuary over and over again.

Experimenting: coming up with interesting ideas for a build and then see those ideas in action.

Why would you assume someone couldn't like one without the other? 😂😂😂

Whatever... I'll leave you to your mental gymnastics.

[Himerance]

1 minute ago, Psianide73 said:

Whatever... I'll leave you to your mental gymnastics.

You mean common sense? 🤣🤣🤣

[EternaldrkMako]

personally deep is the same RNG as duviri circuit, this isnt hard and it can reset daily to my understanding, just build a quick loadout and tune it and run it and try to function like a squad and be useful if you cant do much do cc or buffs ect ...

imo punishing players by forcing RNG/bad loudouts is a bit goofy given majority of game incentivizes it , I dont think the RNG would be bad if it actually pulled from "owned weapons and frames" instead of throwing  dozen weapons people might not even have/use anymore as space is limited ingame, thats not being courteous to the player base by forcing stuff they might not have.

 difficulty modifiers are fine, but if the loadouts only allow you 1 or 2 decent gear simpler to avoid it and do something else if its not rewarding enough incentive to actually play it , why not just do normal netrcells at that point?

 

 

[spider_enigma]

3 hours ago, Himerance said:

You mean common sense? 🤣🤣🤣

how about level weapons in normal game-play..... at mastery 30 u can fit most of a build instantly

 

[Himerance]

20 hours ago, spider_enigma said:

how about level weapons in normal game-play..... at mastery 30 u can fit most of a build instantly

 

That's what I tell players who are leveling weapons for mastery: "Just be MR 30"

Also let's just ignore all the formas and catalysts you have to invest. Nevermind the weapon slots you need to buy.

And you are even quoting an appeal to common sense when typing this 🤣🤣🤣 There's not enough emojis for this crap 🤣🤣🤣

Too good. Thanks for the laugh 😂

Edited April 27 by Himerance

[spider_enigma]

On 2024-04-22 at 6:59 PM, UnstarPrime said:

OP, you've got 2 active topics in General Discussion right now, and both of them are you telling other people not to express opinions that are different than yours.  Don't be that guy.

If other people have different opinions about a video game than you do...that's perfectly fine, friend.

And if for whatever reason you can no longer stand reading those opinions, that's probably a sign that you're in too deep and could use a break.  Rather than trying to police what others express, just take care of yourself by taking a breather and building yourself back up.  By taking the chance to come up for air when you need it, you'll be able to recover until you can once again tolerate reading that someone feels differently than you about a video game.  And when that happens, everyone wins.

they are not even the same topics

the first one is about asking players to not try and force war-frame balance around level 10,001 because thats what LOUD players are trying to do

this topic is about telling people if they change 1 mechanic they might as well delete this and duviri entirely, apparently you cant read

so before you misinterpret me shouting nonsense, stop assuming im attacking the larger populous instead of me telling the loud minority to stfu because they are morons

 

instead of asking for change, with no solution please go out of your way to find a solution that the devs can implement instead of the original duviri echo chamber that cant be addressed

Edited April 30 by spider_enigma