Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework

[Omega-Shadowblade]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

While Armor is being adjusted, can the formula be adjusted as well?

Currently, the formula for Armor is DR = 1 - 300 / (Armor + 300). 300 Armor is 1 - 300/600, or 50% DR. 900 Armor is 1 - 300/1,200, or 75% DR. Another way to think of it is that every 300 Armor adds +100% EHP. 900 Armor (or 75% DR) means an enemy will have +300% (or 4x) more EHP than when it started. But what do you get from 9,700 Armor (or whatever the new cap will be)? When the numbers start to go up, this gets harder and harder to intuitively calculate on the fly. This also makes player Armor harder to understand: how much EHP am I actually getting when I add 450 Armor to go from 125 Armor to 575?

If the formula for Armor is changed to DR = 1 - 100 / (Armor + 100) and base Armor values across the board are divided by 3, then Armor behaves in the exact same way as before but just at different increments. Now every 100 Armor is +100% EHP. An enemy with 3,200 Armor (or whatever a third of the new cap would be) would have +3,200% EHP. And this would make player Armor easier to understand: when I add 150 Armor to go from 40 Armor to 190 Armor I'm just adding +150% EHP.

Some other things:

• Will Armor double-dipping be addressed? Currently, damage bonuses against Armored enemies increases the damage and decreases the effective Armor giving it a multiplicative benefit.
• By reducing the percentage of EHP Armored enemies have due to Armor you're also increasing the percentage of EHP they have due to Health. This is a good thing on its own, but since you aren't changing Viral this will only make the 4.25x damage multiplier it can provide that much more valuable. When even a single stack of Viral doubles damage, that far out-competes whatever paltry faction damage bonus that might have been present. As long as you refuse to address Viral's massive damage value it will remain on top. As you've likely already seen, just giving other damage types like Cold tacked-on damage buffs hasn't worked and you're about to try it again.
• If overall EHP amounts of Armored enemies are being preserved by adjusting Health, how does this affect faction scaling differences? Currently, a lvl150 SP Corpus Tech has 260k EHP. A lvl150 SP Heavy Gunner has 7.1M EHP, 27x more. Shield Regen alone will not be able to make up for a 27x EHP difference unless it's ridiculously fast. Shield Regen sounds nice and should make Shielded enemies feel more dynamic, but it isn't going to be enough to make the unarmored factions sturdy.
• The Infested are notably absent from these changes. If Armored factions are being kept where they are and Shielded factions are being buffed with better regen, then the Infested will only fall even further behind. A lvl150 SP Ancient Healer has only 130k EHP, half that of the Tech and 1/54th that of the Heavy Gunner. The Infested might "hit hard" on paper, but that doesn't matter when they're instantly atomized.
• While you're at it, can the proc effects for Void, Radiation, and Magnetic be swapped around a little?
  • Void should be the effect that causes enemies to go mad.
  • Magnetic should be the effect that causes enemies to become bullet magnets.
  • Radiation should be the effect that causes shields to get all wonky.

Many of these changes are good and I'm glad that something is finally being done about the foundational scaling issues that have been present for so long. But I worry that the resistance to just nerfing Viral a little is going to leave it as the universal best status effect and require many more reworks to every other status type.

They mentioned the cap should be around 2700 armor (which is 90% dr iirc). 

[Lasthiteer]

23 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

 

1. Health scaling of Grineer enemies will be re-aligned, to an extent, to help compensate for the loss in Damage Reduction and to try and maintain a similar time-to-kill feel.

 

wouldnt this be a massive nerf to xaku then???

Edited April 27 by Lasthiteer

[Omega-Shadowblade]

1 minute ago, Lasthiteer said:

wouldnt this be a massive nerf to xaku then???

Not really? What's your thinking?

[Beryliberries]

6 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

They mentioned the cap should be around 2700 armor (which is 90% dr iirc). 

Yeah, what's a little concerning is the EHP difference and how they mean to address it. In the example in this dev workshop:

 

The example they gave was a level 200 non-SP heavy gunner. 104,805 HP | 10,815 Armor

Current: 
104,805 * (1 + (10,815 / 300)) = 3,883,359 EHP

Proposed 90% Damage reduction(2700 armor mentioned): 

104,805 * (1 + (2700 / 300)) = 1,048,050 EHP

 

That's over 2.5mil EHP difference for roughly 7% less DR. If they mean to match or slightly go below what EHP is now, we are gonna see massive health bloat. 

Edited April 27 by Beryliberries

[FLW33D]

19 hours ago, Victaghost said:

Maybe tack on some grouping CC at max stacks?

I REALLY like this idea. Shoot an enemy to "charge" them up with magnetism, until it's so strong it pulls in other nearby enemies. Awesome gameplay mechanic, and it makes sense in the fictional reality of the game, since basically every enemy has some amount of metal in them.

[DrBorris]

 I despise Damage Reduction mathematically. It is naturally unintuitive as its implications on gameplay don't directly correlate to the number. 95% DR isn't 5% better than 90% DR, it is 100% better. When playing the game you don't feel damage reduction, you feel a multiplier on time to kill. That enemy with 5% more DR didn't feel 5% harder, it felt 100% harder. If that DR went from 95% to 90% it wasn't 5% easier to kill, it took half the time to kill. To see Pablo simplify Armor's effect on gameplay into DR rather than TTK was troubling.

I won't disagree that Corrosive is in a bad state, but the reason for its ineffectiveness is far more nuanced than "it only decreased DR by X amount". This is because, mathematically, Corrosive is already better than Viral as a raw damage multiplier (with a bunch of asterisks). As the amount of armor an enemy has increases, removing a percentage of that armor results in an increasingly higher multiplier on damage. The following table converts Corrosive's armor reduction into an effective damage multiplier so you can compare it apples-to-apples with Viral.

Here you can see that at max stacks against that Heavy Gunner Pablo showed Corrosive is actually giving a higher bonus than Viral. If Corrosive's effective damage bonus doesn't "feel useful to players" then why does Viral's? The immediately apparent issue is the scaling, where Viral starts off giving double damage Corrosive only gives 35% bonus damage. Furthermore, Viral has an innate synergy with Slash that makes it capable of ignoring armor. These are the reasons Corrosive isn't as good as Viral, but it isn't simply because it isn't powerful enough, it is technically quite powerful. It is mostly due to bad tuning and outside variables.

A better way to visualize how armor reduction affects time to kill (the number that actually matters) is that a 10% reduction in armor is a 10% reduction in an enemy's EHP. This isn't exactly true, it only approaches an equal value, but as armor levels increase it gets closer and closer to being equal. This means Corrosive's 80% armor reduction at max stacks effectively reduces enemy EHP by 80% and approaches +400% damage ( 1/(1-0.8)-1 ). You can apply this math to any partial armor strip.

In my opinion, all Corrosive really needed to be competitive with Viral (without Green Shards) was for its armor reduction to be more front heavy and to increase the maximum strip to 85%. At every amount of procs Corrosive should be a better multiplier on damage than Viral, and because it doesn't get synergy with finisher damage it needs substantially more than a 75% higher damage multiplier as its cap (85% armor strip is a theoretical 566% multiplier).

I am sure Corrosive will be getting some tweaks, but I find it funny that nerfing armor values will actually result in a nerf to Corrosive (relative to Viral).

23 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Enemy Armor will cap out at a certain percentage to give Corrosive Armor-reducing stacks more of an active impact.

This is the opposite of how armor stripping currently works. The more armor an enemy has the more impactful stripping a percentage of that armor is. In the Devstream Pablo mentioned capping armor at 90% DR, which is equivalent to 2700 armor. This is what that results in...

That's a pretty bad nerf right there... now there is no reason to ever use Corrosive (unless you already have Viral). But it's okay, we can just rework the armor formula to be more complicated.

23 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

The Armor scaling curve will aim to be a bit more spread out, as opposed to being bottom-heavy. Partial strip from the top end will allow for more consistent damage gains, as opposed to needing to have a total Armor Strip.

As it stands, armor scaling is linear. Every 300 armor gives an additional "stack" of EHP. A 100 health enemy with 300 armor has 200 EHP. With 600 armor it is 300 EHP and so on. The problem here isn't the armor formula, it is the focus on Damage Reduction as the stat that players feel. WE DON'T FEEL DAMAGE REDUCTION. Percentage armor stripping is already mostly intuitive in how it functions, strip 50% armor and you (approach) striping away 50% of an enemy's "stacks" of health thereby doubling your damage. This is what you feel, this is what actually impacts the game. Sure, it is a bit bottom heavy in that the first stack doubles an enemy's TTK, but would you look at that...

23 hours ago, [DE]Sam said:

Have a minimum threshold of any Enemy Armor.
      a. No armor-accessing Enemy will have below a certain minimum, Armor shouldn’t feel unimpactful. 

... it's almost like this is something we can already acknowledge is important. If an enemy's base armor were only 5% more EHP then it would be entirely unimpactful. I do think the armor scaling formula could use some work for sure, how quickly and the extent that enemies gain armor is wonky, but the core math is already an elegant solution. Well, if the 300 were swapped for 100 (and all armor values were divided by 3) then it would be a bit more elegant in that every 100 armor would be 100% more health, but that's just a cosmetic QoL.

 

I also don't think the assertion that armor is bad because we have to strip it is actually that bad. For one, that's blatantly untrue (outside level cap which is not content that should be balanced around). We generally have three ways to get through armor. Stripping is one, but we also ignore (Viral+Slash) and brute force (Status Priming). Armor's effect on EHP is far more complex than just a multiplier on health. Our options to get around armor means that the 37x increase brought up in the Dev Workshop isn't actually 3700% longer time to kill. Half of Warframe is the arsenal, making use of the tools you have to counter the challenges in front of you. Having to mechanically get through armor rather than have it simplify be a EHP pool to be DPS'd through is something I've much enjoyed about the current meta, but I won't deny that within those three archetypes our options are still a bit limiting.

 

To be clear, I'm not against a cap on armor. What I'm worried about is the way the current system was explained as it doesn't feel like it properly aligns with how the current system actually works. Yes, players have been saying partial armor stripping was useless for years, but that has always been a bit of an ignorant take. 100% strip has always been much better than partial, but a 80% strip is also technically better than most of our damage amplification abilities. Capping armor at 90% DR on paper sounds nice but leads to a breakdown of a lot of other systems and has inconsistent ramifications, for better and for worse Warframe is a a complicated game.

Edited April 27 by DrBorris

[Xenevier]

3 hours ago, DelugePrime said:

Complaining about the armor changes is ridiculous.

Health scaling is being boosted to compensate the armor changes so that the overall EHP tends to be the same but you aren't required to fully armor strip in order to kill anymore at high levels.

Already the only difficulty from the armor was "full armor strip or bust" because it'll take too long to kill anyway. With the full armor strip they still die near instantly, all the changes do is opens up a few new ways to build. Running armor strip doesn't make the game "hard" just reduces build variety for late game content.

If anything, depending on how they change health and shield scaling, the game might legitimately end up more difficult since you can't rely on full armor strip to one shot targets that currently have a lot of EHP because of armor.

absolutely agree, as long as TTK and EHP stays around the same ball park, its good, some people say these changes like armor having a cap is a saryn nerf because now she wont be the only one to reduce armor so drastically, but thats just not true, its not a saryn nerf if others can do it too, yes it 100% brings down the value of armor strip compared to before but ... good? because armor strip was almost necessary for late game content, that or you run viral slash, so now if the changes are made in a good way, we can still run viral slash but also run other elements such as electricity which have been real bad against high armor, i think the changes will be rough at first but its a necessary evil.

as of how the game stands against armor right now :

A)armor strip=no -> Need extremely high base damage like Laetum or Slash damage

B)armor strip=yes -> can use basically anything as long as enemies dont have high base HP like WitW enemies

this means if you ran the second type, youre free to do what you want and have fun, but if you ran the first type you almost NEED armor strip

[Omega-Shadowblade]

2 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

 I despise Damage Reduction mathematically. It is naturally unintuitive as its implications on gameplay don't directly correlate to the number. 95% DR isn't 5% better than 90% DR, it is 100% better. When playing the game you don't feel damage reduction, you feel a multiplier on time to kill. That enemy with 5% more DR didn't feel 5% harder, it felt 100% harder. If that DR went from 95% to 90% it wasn't 5% easier to kill, it took half the time to kill. To see Pablo simplify Armor's effect on gameplay into DR rather than TTK was troubling.

I won't disagree that Corrosive is in a bad state, but the reason for its ineffectiveness is far more nuanced than "it only decreased DR by X amount". This is because, mathematically, Corrosive is already better than Viral as a raw damage multiplier (with a bunch of asterisks). As the amount of armor an enemy has increases, removing a percentage of that armor results in an increasingly higher multiplier on damage. The following table converts Corrosive's armor reduction into an effective damage multiplier so you can compare it apples-to-apples with Viral.

Here you can see that at max stacks against that Heavy Gunner Pablo showed Corrosive is actually giving a higher bonus than Viral. If Corrosive's effective damage bonus doesn't "feel useful to players" then why does Viral's? The immediately apparent issue is the scaling, where Viral starts off giving double damage Corrosive only gives 35% bonus damage. Furthermore, Viral has an innate synergy with Slash that makes it capable of ignoring armor. These are the reasons Corrosive isn't as good as Viral, but it isn't simply because it isn't powerful enough, it is technically quite powerful. It is mostly due to bad tuning and outside variables.

A better way to visualize how armor reduction affects time to kill (the number that actually matters) is that a 10% reduction in armor is a 10% reduction in an enemy's EHP. This isn't exactly true, it only approaches an equal value, but as armor levels increase it gets closer and closer to being equal. This means Corrosive's 80% armor reduction at max stacks effectively reduces enemy EHP by 80% and approaches +400% damage ( 1/(1-0.8)-1 ). You can apply this math to any partial armor strip.

In my opinion, all Corrosive really needed to be competitive with Viral (without Green Shards) was for its armor reduction to be more front heavy and to increase the maximum strip to 85%. At every amount of procs Corrosive should be a better multiplier on damage than Viral, and because it doesn't get synergy with finisher damage it needs substantially more than a 75% higher damage multiplier as its cap (85% armor strip is a theoretical 566% multiplier).

I am sure Corrosive will be getting some tweaks, but I find it funny that nerfing armor values will actually result in a nerf to Corrosive (relative to Viral).

This is the opposite of how armor stripping currently works. Unless DE is reworking the way the entire armor equation works, the more armor an enemy has the more impactful stripping a percentage of that armor is. In the Devstream Pablo mentioned capping armor at 90% DR, which is equivalent to 2700 armor. This is what that results in...

That's a pretty bad nerf right there... now there is no reason to ever use Corrosive (unless you already have Viral). But it's okay, we can just rework the armor formula to be more complicated.

As it stands, armor scaling is linear. Every 300 armor gives an additional "stack" of EHP. A 100 health enemy with 300 armor has 200 EHP. With 600 armor it is 300 EHP and so on. The problem here isn't the armor formula, it is the focus on Damage Reduction as the stat that players feel. WE DON'T FEEL DAMAGE REDUCTION. Percentage armor stripping is already mostly intuitive in how it functions, strip 50% armor and you (approach) striping away 50% of an enemy's "stacks" of health thereby doubling your damage. This is what you feel, this is what actually impacts the game. Sure, it is a bit bottom heavy in that the first stack doubles an enemy's TTK, but would you look at that...

... it's almost like this is something we can already acknowledge is important. If an enemy's base armor were only 5% more EHP then it would be entirely unimpactful. I do think the armor scaling formula could use some work for sure, how quickly and the extent that enemies gain armor is wonky, but the core math is already an elegant solution. Well, if the 300 were swapped for 100 (and all armor values were divided by 3) then it would be a bit more elegant in that every 100 armor would be 100% more health, but that's just a cosmetic QoL.

 

I also don't think the assertion that armor is bad because we have to strip it is actually that bad. For one, that's blatantly untrue (outside level cap which is not content that should be balanced around). We generally have three ways to get through armor. Stripping is one, but we also ignore (Viral+Slash) and brute force (Status Priming). Armor's effect on EHP is far more complex than just a multiplier on health. Our options to get around armor means that the 37x increase brought up in the Dev Workshop isn't actually 3700% longer time to kill. Half of Warframe is the arsenal, making use of the tools you have to counter the challenges in front of you. Having to mechanically get through armor rather than have it simplify be a EHP pool to be DPS'd through is something I've much enjoyed about the current meta, but I won't deny that within those three archetypes our options are still a bit limiting.

 

To be clear, I'm not against a cap on armor. What I'm worried about is the way the current system was explained as it doesn't feel like it properly aligns with how the current system actually works. Yes, players have been saying partial armor stripping was useless for years, but that has always been a bit of an ignorant take. 100% strip has always been much better than partial, but a 80% strip is also technically better than most of our damage amplification abilities. Capping armor at 90% DR on paper sounds nice but leads to a breakdown of a lot of other systems and has inconsistent ramifications, for better and for worse Warframe is a a complicated game.

I think the objective is that armor had reached a point where the average armor was within the realms that was making fighting against it an all or nothing endeavor. It doesn't matter if you're removing 90% of the armor, if that 10% remaining still provides 90% damage reduction then the effort in removing that 90% of the other armor was meaningless.

once your in that 90%+ dr range things scale too fast. The objective is to put armor below that range so that its easier to manage all aspects of damage.

[PublikDomain]

19 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

They mentioned the cap should be around 2700 armor (which is 90% dr iirc). 

I'll edit my post to reflect that. I knew I heard a 700 somewhere :)

So on a 100-point Armor scale that'd be 900 Max Armor for +900% EHP.

[Xenevier]

6 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

I think the objective is that armor had reached a point where the average armor was within the realms that was making fighting against it an all or nothing endeavor. It doesn't matter if you're removing 90% of the armor, if that 10% remaining still provides 90% damage reduction then the effort in removing that 90% of the other armor was meaningless.

once your in that 90%+ dr range things scale too fast. The objective is to put armor below that range so that its easier to manage all aspects of damage.

i think the issue here was addressed somewhat in the OP's message, as they explain, 90->95% armor is halfing your damage because instead of 10% going through, now 5% goes through which is half of before, but with the current system, it goes from 90->95->97.5 ... etc really really fast, you can see this a lot easier in duviri as level ramps up quickly and you can feel how each stage gets instantly harder with armor going up by a ton. while this is all true, this is SP duviri and we're talking about level 1000 enemies, that is 0.1% of the content we run. 

having said that the problem still persists in normal SP content, as some elements are actually non-viable, such as electricity, the second you turn origin system into SP, the armor upgrade is so huge most players will FEEL how impactful armor is and it instantly sends them a message that if you cant deal with armor, you cant deal with steelpath

[Beryliberries]

12 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

absolutely agree, as long as TTK and EHP stays around the same ball park, its good, some people say these changes like armor having a cap is a saryn nerf because now she wont be the only one to reduce armor so drastically, but thats just not true, its not a saryn nerf if others can do it too, yes it 100% brings down the value of armor strip compared to before but ... good? because armor strip was almost necessary for late game content, that or you run viral slash, so now if the changes are made in a good way, we can still run viral slash but also run other elements such as electricity which have been real bad against high armor, i think the changes will be rough at first but its a necessary evil.

as of how the game stands against armor right now :

A)armor strip=no -> Need extremely high base damage like Laetum or Slash damage

B)armor strip=yes -> can use basically anything as long as enemies dont have high base HP like WitW enemies

this means if you ran the second type, youre free to do what you want and have fun, but if you ran the first type you almost NEED armor strip

ttk with slash will be longer if the balance in EHP comes from health values entirely. The EHP difference will be about ~4x less than what it is now if no health values are adjusted.

[DrBorris]

30 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

I think the objective is that armor had reached a point where the average armor was within the realms that was making fighting against it an all or nothing endeavor. It doesn't matter if you're removing 90% of the armor, if that 10% remaining still provides 90% damage reduction then the effort in removing that 90% of the other armor was meaningless.

once your in that 90%+ dr range things scale too fast. The objective is to put armor below that range so that its easier to manage all aspects of damage.

I don't see how removing 90% of an enemy's armor is meaningless when that approaches a 900% damage multiplier. DR doesn't matter, all that matters is TTK. And in terms of TTK, many of our tools are easily able to dispatch enemies even with 90% DR through raw damage.

And that said, I don't see armor as simply an EHP multiplier. What makes armor interesting is that the best way to kill an enemy with it is to break the armor, not just apply more damage. Taking a step back, Viral/Slash is really interesting. We take it for granted because it is ubiquitous, but I don't think it is a bad thing that we have such a unique way of killing enemies (debuffing health and applying a specific DoT). I also think full armor strip has had a far more positive impact on general gameplay than any other ability archetype, we are now encouraged to weave ability casts into our gunplay and potentially stack these types of debuffs with our other buffs. Or I can use Secondary Encumber and brute force my way through by (ab)using status priming.

 

Having armor values be stupidly high is what has allowed for emergent gameplay and loadouts. If we could simply shoot our way through armor many builds would be made irrelevant due to being overkill/too much effort. I understand wanting more things to be viable, but the flipside to that is that your decisions have less value. There needs to be good builds and bad builds for there to be impactful build-craft.

 

Edit: One more thing about how armor scaling affects all that. Because armor scales, it means the importance of you ensuring you have the correct tools to "break" armor more important as enemy levels rise. This means that the value of good builds becomes exponentially more important as enemy levels rise, at lower levels it is fine to just brute force your way through things but once you hit SP you now need to consider making an actual build beyond making more bigger number. I find this type of enemy scaling to be fascinating as it subverts the notion that increasing enemy EHP number is just an artificial increase in difficulty by making it take longer.

Edit2: I need to clarify that despite liking the options we have, I do think our options are too limited. Secondary Encumber is just for secondaries. Armor stripping abilities are rare (but becoming more common). And our options to get around armor with different status effects are certainly lacking. But these are the things I would like to see addressed, give us more build options by giving us more options, not by squishing the floor and ceiling together so everything becomes the same.

Edited April 27 by DrBorris

[Omega-Shadowblade]

6 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

i think the issue here was addressed somewhat in the OP's message, as they explain, 90->95% armor is halfing your damage because instead of 10% going through, now 5% goes through which is half of before, but with the current system, it goes from 90->95->97.5 ... etc really really fast, you can see this a lot easier in duviri as level ramps up quickly and you can feel how each stage gets instantly harder with armor going up by a ton. while this is all true, this is SP duviri and we're talking about level 1000 enemies, that is 0.1% of the content we run. 

having said that the problem still persists in normal SP content, as some elements are actually non-viable, such as electricity, the second you turn origin system into SP, the armor upgrade is so huge most players will FEEL how impactful armor is and it instantly sends them a message that if you cant deal with armor, you cant deal with steelpath

Yes, I'll clarify my point then. 

Because average armor (not challenge runs) had begun to enter the point where its in that 90% limbo even with partial armor strip. It just becomes a mess to work with.

The objective is to keep armor below that 90% so that its always more manageable to calculate and respond to. It'll make it easier to handle future changes to damage types.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

I'm glad you're looking into reworking the less used elements and their status effects as well as streamlining enemy HP types, but I'd like to ask you to respect your player's time and effort already invested into Warframe when plotting these changes.

Resources aside, it takes tremendous amount of time to fully mod and prepare one's arsenal, especially for veteran players. Even with a mountain of Forma and quadra Affinity Booster having to redo all that because you change something is a monumental task and it's frankly insulting towards your player's time and effort investment.

We've been here before. This already happened in the past and not just once, albeit sometimes only on a smaller scale. Every time you ignored us and didn't compensate us in any way.

I'm quite sick of this treatment, so I'm writing this in hopes this won't happen again but also so I can have an excuse for my own conscience, so I can say "at least I tried instead of doing nothing".

[NanoSquid]

I refuse to believe you guys actually think the way to make Magnetic more appealing is "have it do even MORE things to shields!"

How about adding an effect that makes it do more than boost CO against the other 5/6ths of the game? Please?

[Beryliberries]

43 minutes ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

I'm glad you're looking into reworking the less used elements and their status effects as well as streamlining enemy HP types, but I'd like to ask you to respect your player's time and effort already invested into Warframe when plotting these changes.

Resources aside, it takes tremendous amount of time to fully mod and prepare one's arsenal, especially for veteran players. Even with a mountain of Forma and quadra Affinity Booster having to redo all that because you change something is a monumental task and it's frankly insulting towards your player's time and effort investment.

We've been here before. This already happened in the past and not just once, albeit sometimes only on a smaller scale. Every time you ignored us and didn't compensate us in any way.

I'm quite sick of this treatment, so I'm writing this in hopes this won't happen again but also so I can have an excuse for my own conscience, so I can say "at least I tried instead of doing nothing".

I sort of understand this but on the other hand-- when we get tools that change our builds in any update, do you think we deserve to be compensated for potential shakeups? Personally, I don't think so. I don't mind re-formaing weapons if I need to. I also don't think this will be so fundamentally earth-shaking that we are gonna have to sink tons more forma into already built gear.

[Redrigoth]

Rework cold mods to use the same polarity as other elements. It's so obnoxious locking a weapon with the primed cold mod into a forma layout that prevents it from fitting other elements on other configs

[Zibop]

Please don't remove all the different armor and health types. They add so much soul and flavor to the game.

[Beryliberries]

4 minutes ago, Redrigoth said:

Rework cold mods to use the same polarity as other elements. It's so obnoxious locking a weapon with the primed cold mod into a forma layout that prevents it from fitting other elements on other configs

This. This is another thing to consider. Other reasons people may not experiment currently with elements(besides some of them being pretty bad) is cold's extremely limiting D polarity. People afterwards may not experiment if they do content that handles viral fine still, due to this. 

[HMS_Vesper]

I'm curious what people's reaction would be if our damage numbers were brought down at the same time that enemy HP and damage reduction is brought down. They'd probably lose their minds but generally I don't know how much it would really change.

[Zibop]

1 minute ago, Beryliberries said:

This. This is another thing to consider. Other reasons people may not experiment currently with elements(besides some of them being pretty bad) is cold's extremely limiting D polarity. People afterwards may not experiment if they do content that handles viral fine still, due to this. 

Yup this has to be done if DE wants us to switch elemental mods more.

[SiMikSai]

magnetic for corpus?

we have toxin to bypass shield, why need magnetic (that useless element)

also GAS is really weird element, we can die from infested GAS CLOUD, it bypass our shield, then why GAS itself can't bypass corpus shield ?

 

[stp_007]

21 hours ago, RAZORLIGHT said:

This stuff is incredible.

But it won't solve one big issue, changing loadouts manually is tiresome.

We need some kind of adaptive loadout system, based on the faction we fight.

If we fight corpus it will automatically chose the corpus loadout (if activated by the player) and so on.

Only if they change how we forma our weapons or Warframes....So,we do have duplicate weapons or warframes in our inventory...for example when we forma a weapon let us pick which loadout we want on  A, B or C not that system they have now....that way we have different loadout for every enemy

[Beryliberries]

40 minutes ago, Zibop said:

Yup this has to be done if DE wants us to switch elemental mods more.

Yeah. And in no way would it abolish the importance of polarities anyways. Decisions on polarities have to be made elsewhere. Aptitude, etc. Unsure how they could delicately change the polarity though, wouldnt even mind re-forma-ing my entire arsenal to account for that change. I find myself using a lot of 60/60s with hybrid builds though generally. 

Edited April 27 by Beryliberries

[Redrigoth]

Magnetic should have an additional effect that gives enemies 0.5m per stack magnetic field and enemies whose fields overlap are drawn to each other. It can serve as a grouping tool and a different way to kill corpus as opposed to the usual toxin shield bypass. It will also make it more interesting to build magnetic against other factions as well. It will also potentially introduce magnetic-gas builds as meta-competetive builds and it might make rivens for super low dispo weapons more useful if they have multiple elements so you can get the combo without spending so many mod slots (until we get single slot magnetic mods).

Change Primed Cryo Round from Vazarin to Naramon polarity so it matches other elements. This will also encourage people to experiment with and use cold, magnetic, and blast builds rather than dismissing them as "i want to make one config like this but it doesn't fit on my forma". Sure we have the 60/60 cold mod but sometimes you want raw damage or you want to adjust the status chance distribution. Make the mod universal polarity for 6 months and give everyone over mastery rank 10 5 formas. After the 6 month period is over, change the mod into Naramon(-) polarity. This will avoid breaking people's loadouts and give them time to fix any weapon using Primed Cryo Rounds(it probably isn't too many weapons). This is how we can smoothly transition this troublesome cold polarity to be in line with the rest of the elemental mods.

Since blast takes away heat dots, maybe it can provide some kind of damage over time in an alternate form. On top of the accuracy reduction, maybe make it so it does 0.5% of enemy max hp+shield per stack (5% at 10 stacks) as tick damage per second(because the pressure build up and instability) and then if an enemy with blast procs dies, they explode in a 1m per stack radius and deal 1% of their max hp+shield per stack as radial damage with no falloff to enemies. This explosion gives each enemy hit 1 blast proc and it is not affected by crit or status chance mods. It is affected by puncture stacks on enemies it hits though so it can have a 25% chance to hit them for double.

This blast change would make single target punch-through puncture blast weapons a viable alternative to aoe weapons or group-and-nuke strategies. Weapons like Gorgon, Gotva Prime, Tenet Flux rifle, Kuva karak, Kuva Quartakk, Kuva Hind would become much more popular. Yes Bramma will also deal a little more damage due to the blast explosions but it barely has ammo anyway so the few shots might as well count.

Bring back a third stat for Primary merciless. Maybe +80% more ammo recovery on pickup?

 

Edited April 27 by Redrigoth