Do players get the implications of the Armor , resistance and status changes ?

[0_The_F00l]

This is based on the changes mentioned in the devstream (refer the dev workshop here 

 

Well it's no secret that most loadouts used by players for higher levels content depended on a means to remove or bypass armor completely.

With the proposed changes this playstyle will still work (probably) , but there will be more reasonable alternatives to the dominant options we picked and may need other means to adapt our playstyle.

Which means ,

ITS TIME FOR A META ROLLOVER

Not just in the type of elements we put on our weapons but also the type of frames and weapons we use ,

If shields are going to recharge much faster , then not only will magnetic be preferred but weapons that can keep the recharge delay going will be more effective (things with a decent fire rate would be my bet) instead of single shot slow fire rate weapons.

Impact may not be a dump stat for rivens anymore (who am I kidding , that's probably still not gonna do much , but we will see)

There are frame that change enemy resistances I wonder how they will interact (and how long before DE realises they broke them somehow ) and maybe frames can get away with lesser strength for Armor strip and get some other utility.

Will it also entail changes to faction mods in some way either how they affect resistances or how they double dip on some DoTs?

Cold freezing enemies solid , and doing extra crit damage ? Talk about union of CC and support that's gonna be worth that D forma.

A 90% DR cap with armor means you can stack up gas and electric if you can group enemies for more devastating effects (which you could already do but at lower levels)

I am curious and have suspicions there's more to this change than is being shown ofcourse , like what's up with blast blasting ? Like ... What ? That's a discussion by itself.

But I am overall looking forward to these changes eagerly. It's going to be a very significant change that will affect a lot of things. Would lovbe to discuss views and opinions on how this will (or not) impact you.

Edited April 27 by 0_The_F00l

[trst]

Sounds considerably worse tbh. Unless DE buffs enemy base health a LOT all any of this will do is make it easier to just brute force enemies. I'd much rather chose one of the dozens of anti-armor/armor stripping methods we have for a build than just slap damage on (something every build already does) and call it a day.

And as for status reworks none of it matters if DE doesn't address the meta ones AND all the future meta picks. Otherwise we'll remain in the cycle we've always been in where only a fraction of our 13 different damage types ever get considered. If DE wants them all to have reasons to be picked then every one of them has to be nerfed to the point that the advantages each offers actually matters. Otherwise the strongest will be picked vs the most "difficult" faction while still being able to brute force everything else.

[(PSN)rexis12]

19 minutes ago, trst said:

Otherwise we'll remain in the cycle we've always been in where only a fraction of our 13 different damage types ever get considered

You do know that it's because of armor that only a fraction of our damage types get considered right? 

Like before Viral was Meta, it was Corrosive and Corrosive Projection that was the Meta.

And it was due to Armor. 

[0_The_F00l]

42 minutes ago, trst said:

Sounds considerably worse tbh. Unless DE buffs enemy base health a LOT all any of this will do is make it easier to just brute force enemies. I'd much rather chose one of the dozens of anti-armor/armor stripping methods we have for a build than just slap damage on (something every build already does) and call it a day.

And as for status reworks none of it matters if DE doesn't address the meta ones AND all the future meta picks. Otherwise we'll remain in the cycle we've always been in where only a fraction of our 13 different damage types ever get considered. If DE wants them all to have reasons to be picked then every one of them has to be nerfed to the point that the advantages each offers actually matters. Otherwise the strongest will be picked vs the most "difficult" faction while still being able to brute force everything else.

I like to look at it as the next step for more things to come.

I think the first step happened with the ammo rework.

[Greysmog]

30 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I like to look at it as the next step for more things to come.

I think the first step happened with the ammo rework.

The only issue is DE has already confirmed they're not going to touch the glaring issue that is Viral on the Devstream. I'm going to assume they won't be touching kind of busted stuff either like Heat Inherit or Toxin just ignoring Shields in general, but we'll have to see. 

Now the changes aren't finalized to be fair, but I don't really see this changing much if Armor and Health still work the same. I'm still going to be picking Viral in 99% of cases, because it's just easier to stick with that then constantly flip-flop around. Considering Toxin and Slash aren't being addressed either, and can still just totally ignore an enemy's defense with Viral that just adds 550% extra Health damage, it's mostly going to be gimmicks or proccing Arcanes then actually using the elements for their intended purpose.

I'm hoping Pablo is actually considering tweaking the meta stuff as well, because I do actually want more reasons to run Blast or Gas over Slash and Viral. If DE does something like making Armor and Shields a literal health class, so you have to get rid of it to benefit from Viral, that would already go a long way. We have plenty of strip options after all. Maybe buff the upsides and the downsides, so if you aren't using the correct element your damage tanks, but using the proper one melts stuff, making raw DPS like Radiation or Blast better as well. 

Edited April 27 by Greysmog

[ECCHOSIERRA]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Sounds considerably worse tbh. Unless DE buffs enemy base health a LOT all any of this will do is make it easier to just brute force enemies. I'd much rather chose one of the dozens of anti-armor/armor stripping methods we have for a build than just slap damage on (something every build already does) and call it a day.

And as for status reworks none of it matters if DE doesn't address the meta ones AND all the future meta picks. Otherwise we'll remain in the cycle we've always been in where only a fraction of our 13 different damage types ever get considered. If DE wants them all to have reasons to be picked then every one of them has to be nerfed to the point that the advantages each offers actually matters. Otherwise the strongest will be picked vs the most "difficult" faction while still being able to brute force everything else.

Agreed with unless health is buffed by ALOT theres still gonna a narrow meta of useful elements.

 

And even if it is, its arguably just gonna make viral even more meta than it already is. Because what other element effectively reduces enemy health by what 2 thirds?

[0_The_F00l]

19 minutes ago, Greysmog said:

The only issue is DE has already confirmed they're not going to touch the glaring issue that is Viral on the Devstream. I'm going to assume they won't be touching kind of busted stuff either like Heat Inherit or Toxin just ignoring Shields in general, but we'll have to see. 

Now the changes aren't finalized to be fair, but I don't really see this changing much if Armor and Health still work the same. I'm still going to be picking Viral in 99% of cases, because it's just easier to stick with that then constantly flip-flop around. Considering Toxin and Slash aren't being addressed either, and can still just totally ignore an enemy's defense with Viral that just adds 550% extra Health damage, it's mostly going to be gimmicks or proccing Arcanes then actually using the elements for their intended purpose.

I'm hoping Pablo is actually considering tweaking the meta stuff as well, because I do actually want more reasons to run Blast or Gas over Slash and Viral. If DE does something like making Armor and Shields a literal health class, so you have to get rid of it to benefit from Viral, that would already go a long way. We have plenty of strip options after all. Maybe buff the upsides and the downsides, so if you aren't using the correct element your damage tanks, but using the proper one melts stuff, making raw DPS like Radiation or Blast better as well. 

I do think there are plans to tweak other statuses ,

Did they really say they will NOT do changes to any other things i was sleepy when i saw the devstream so may have missed it ? besides there are still ways to change how things work functionally without changing the mechanics of thing , the ammo rework showed that for many weapons. Health increase and damage resistance to bleed for certain factions could dramatically affect how slash would behave without changing slash itself.

I feel they just don't want to say it now and want to get the player reaction to the buffs before talking about the nerfs (either direct or indirect).

 

[(PSN)rexis12]

I find it funny that apprently we have now 'encourages' diversity when

1. Corpus Heavy Units have Armor, which require to forgo Magnetic, you know the Anti Corpus element, for either Radiation due to the damage bonus or Corrosive to reduce enemy armour.

2. Deimos open World makes enemies with Armour their looks, making it so that wanting to actually use Gas to deal with the enemy faction that groups up and attacks in melee worthless, due to needing to actually deal with Armour, meaning you have to build for Corrosive, because Viral doesn't work simply because lol DE. 

3. Acolytes exist in both Infested and Corpus Steel Path with their Ferrite Armour, which means having to build for Corrosive due to their Armor getting in the way of like the intended resistance and weakness of this factions and instead you get slapped with what is essentially a Grineer Field Boss. 

You either have to build for Corrosive, Bypass with Slash, or Armor Strip. 

And I shouldn't have to tell you that I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO ARMOR STRIP FOR THE SHIELD AND HEALTH FACTION! 

[0_The_F00l]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

I find it funny that apprently we have now 'encourages' diversity when

1. Corpus Heavy Units have Armor, which require to forgo Magnetic, you know the Anti Corpus element, for either Radiation due to the damage bonus or Corrosive to reduce enemy armour.

2. Deimos open World makes enemies with Armour their looks, making it so that wanting to actually use Gas to deal with the enemy faction that groups up and attacks in melee worthless, due to needing to actually deal with Armour, meaning you have to build for Corrosive, because Viral doesn't work simply because lol DE. 

3. Acolytes exist in both Infested and Corpus Steel Path with their Ferrite Armour, which means having to build for Corrosive due to their Armor getting in the way of like the intended resistance and weakness of this factions and instead you get slapped with what is essentially a Grineer Field Boss. 

You either have to build for Corrosive, Bypass with Slash, or Armor Strip. 

And I shouldn't have to tell you that I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO ARMOR STRIP FOR THE SHIELD AND HEALTH FACTION! 

Firstly , Armor is getting reworked along with status , let's not look at them in vaccum.

Secondly , that has always been the case and players have access to 3 weapons , 1 warframe and one focus school to mitigate such issues.

[kadlis12]

The combination of Heat + Corrosive + thauforged emerald shard is surprisingly good in the current system. Full armor strip was pushed for being a brute-force, easy-to-understand mechanics, but it is not the only way already. The problem is that it is hard to do a meaningful partial armor strip which does not risk a full armor strip. Making the damage resistance curve linear will help with that, but will significantly devaluate the emerald shards.

META means what is pushed by streamers, but it really does not mean being easy to use or justifiable. A change in META kinda means absolutely nothing if you like your playstyle.

And empowering shields can only further boost my inclination to use toxin damage. I do not get how making something more of an obstacle is supposed to motivate me to struggle with it - if there is an easy way around it.

Edited April 27 by kadlis12

[0_The_F00l]

10 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

The combination of Heat + Corrosive + thauforged emerald shard is surprisingly good in the current system. Full armor strip was pushed for being a brute-force, easy-to-understand mechanics, but it is not the only way already. The problem is that it is hard to do a meaningful partial armor strip that which does not risk a full armor strip. Making the damage resistance curve linear will help with that, but will significantly devaluate the emerald shards.

META means what is pushed by streamers, but it really does not mean being easy to use or justifiable. A change in META kinda means absolutely nothing if you like your playstyle.

And empowering shields can only further boost my inclination to use toxin damage. I do not get how making something more of an obstacle is supposed to motivate me to struggle with it - if there is an easy way around it.

META is the "most effective tactic available" , effective does not mean highest damage , but what can get the job done with minimum effort. Including effort of changing loadouts to match the opposition.

You absolutely do not need to follow the meta , but loadouts will undoubtedly need to be relooked after these changes and updated.

We will see if toxin sees any changes.

[kadlis12]

35 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

META is the "most effective tactic available" , effective does not mean highest damage , but what can get the job done with minimum effort. Including effort of changing loadouts to match the opposition.

You absolutely do not need to follow the meta , but loadouts will undoubtedly need to be relooked after these changes and updated.

We will see if toxin sees any changes.

Well, sure, "most effective tactic available" is the definition, but what that means is ambivalent. For example, the mentioned combination of Heat + Corrosive + thauforged emerald shard gives mathematically better numbers than a full armor strip. But is it better or most effective? Depends on the user and use case. Labeling armor strip META is stupid by definition, as you did not list all the necessary conditions. Like sacrificing one ability for that - or pushing Strength to unreasonable levels.

In real life, META is what is being pushed, not about being the most efficient or reasonable.

Edited April 27 by kadlis12

[0_The_F00l]

6 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

Well, sure, "most effective tactic available" is the definition, but what that means is ambivalent. For example, the mentioned combination of Heat + Corrosive + thauforged emerald shard gives mathematically better numbers than a full armor strip. But is it better or most effective? Depends on the user and use case. Labeling armor strip META is stupid by definition, as you did not list all the necessary conditions. Like sacrificing one ability for that - or pushing Strength to unreasonable levels.

In real life, META is what is being pushed, not about being the most efficient or reasonable.

I wasn't arguing , I was clarifying.

I also didn't say Armor strip is META , you may want to recheck what I wrote.

I am saying whatever the current META is will rollover due to these changes.

[(PSN)rexis12]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

that has always been the case and players have access to 3 weapons , 1 warframe and one focus school to mitigate such issues.

"Hey the Corpus is the Shield Faction Right, we should build mostly to deal with Shields"

"Actually you need to focus one for Armor."

"But they're Shield focused, wouldn't making it so that we need to build for Armor for them as well negate the enemy diversity and homogenise the weapon builds?"

"Doesn't matter, have a build for Armor."

"Ok, what about the Infested. They're Melee focus and take extra damage from Gas, alongside clumping together which helps with Gas. "

"You also have to build for Armor for them."

"But wouldn't that further reduce build diversity by forcing all factions needing one specific play style/build being present at all times, while also causing issues with the challeng when the EHP of those faction doesn't match with how much EHP armor does?"

"What's wrong with you, you have three weapons, just build for Armor."

"Fine, then I guess for Grineer we also need to build for Shield and Enemy Density to? "

"No for Grineer just build for Armor."

[kadlis12]

7 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I wasn't arguing , I was clarifying.

I also didn't say Armor strip is META , you may want to recheck what I wrote.

I am saying whatever the current META is will rollover due to these changes.

You added a completely ambiguous definition that serves no purpose. So I did argue against using a completely pointless definition that serves absolutely no purpose.

But the stream you based your topic on was about people relying on a full armor strip and dismissing a partial one.

A topic about change is pointless if you insist on not mentioning the original state while you have no idea about the result. The mix will change if you change an ingredient, who would have guessed it?

[Corvid]

I really wish people would stop capitalising "meta". The whole "Most Efficient Tactic Available" thing is a backronym, it has nothing to do with the actual origin/meaning of the term.

[0_The_F00l]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

"Hey the Corpus is the Shield Faction Right, we should build mostly to deal with Shields"

"Actually you need to focus one for Armor."

"But they're Shield focused, wouldn't making it so that we need to build for Armor for them as well negate the enemy diversity and homogenise the weapon builds?"

"Doesn't matter, have a build for Armor."

"Ok, what about the Infested. They're Melee focus and take extra damage from Gas, alongside clumping together which helps with Gas. "

"You also have to build for Armor for them."

"But wouldn't that further reduce build diversity by forcing all factions needing one specific play style/build being present at all times, while also causing issues with the challeng when the EHP of those faction doesn't match with how much EHP armor does?"

"What's wrong with you, you have three weapons, just build for Armor."

"Fine, then I guess for Grineer we also need to build for Shield and Enemy Density to? "

"No for Grineer just build for Armor."

I do get what you are saying , but also feel you are over exaggerating multiple things and not having this argument logically and claiming you need to build all your weapons the same way.

You have three weapons , pick one to deal with whatever is the most prevalent enemy you expect to encounter and mod accordingly.

Pick the other to deal with whatever enemies that are out of the ordinary and mod accordingly.

Pick the last for a kind of middle approach that can kinda maange both if a little less effectively.

That's just weapons , add frames and operator focus abilities and you can build in a different way altogether.

We will ofcourse have to see how things actually work out and ttk for reworked armored units and shielded units (using respective elements).

[0_The_F00l]

27 minutes ago, kadlis12 said:

You added a completely ambiguous definition that serves no purpose. So I did argue against using a completely pointless definition that serves absolutely no purpose.

But the stream you based your topic on was about people relying on a full armor strip and dismissing a partial one.

A topic about change is pointless if you insist on not mentioning the original state while you have no idea about the result. The mix will change if you change an ingredient, who would have guessed it?

Pretty sure meta is not ambiguous , it's a pretty common game terminology. It may of course have slight variations between different games.

Also not sure what you mean by dismissing a partial strip , the numbers are right there for you to verify.

I am also not sure why I am getting this agression from you , and what do you mean by not mentioning the original state ? We are as of now playing in the original state before the changes. Anyone can do the testing.

And yes I do not know what the full scope of the change may entail , as of now we can speculate based on the data shared in the dev workshop , which is still subject to change. We can still discuss and make theories though.

19 minutes ago, Corvid said:

I really wish people would stop capitalising "meta". The whole "Most Efficient Tactic Available" thing is a backronym, it has nothing to do with the actual origin/meaning of the term.

But it serves it's purpose well enough. And how exactly do you capitalise a strategy ?

[Corvid]

10 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

And how exactly do you capitalise a strategy ?

By writing "meta" as "META". That's what I mean. People write it as though it's an acronym that stands for the previously mentioned phrase when it's actually a shorthand for "metagame".

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

By writing "meta" as "META". That's what I mean. People write it as though it's an acronym that stands for the previously mentioned phrase when it's actually a shorthand for "metagame".

Ah , you meant uppercase capitalise , and not take advantage and exploit for monetary gains capitalise.

Whether i scream meta , META or metagame the general playerbase understands what it means.

I am with you that being accurate in your description is always better than being vague. But at this time that's a pretty established term no matter if you use uppercase or not.

[FiveN9ne]

5 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

You do know that it's because of armor that only a fraction of our damage types get considered right? 

Like before Viral was Meta, it was Corrosive and Corrosive Projection that was the Meta.

And it was due to Armor. 

Remove armor from the game viral still remains the best. Then come Heat and Electric, which you guessed it, can be paired with viral.

[(PSN)rexis12]

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You have three weapons , pick one to deal with whatever is the most prevalent enemy you expect to encounter and mod accordingly.

Pick the other to deal with whatever enemies that are out of the ordinary and mod accordingly.

 

46 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

claiming you need to build all your weapons the same way

Again my point still stands. 

Why am I building for Armor for the Shield and Health faction? Why are the builds and loadouts being homogenized and pushed to always have Anti-Armor? Doesn't that cheapen the enemy variety of the game, especially with how absurd Armor is at the moment.

I remember someone going

"Why do people only use Viral Corrosive Heat and Slash?"

And the response should always be

"Why does every enemy faction in the game have Armor in them that exponentially jacks up their EHP value?"

[Snowbluff]

So what they said is TTK will be similar, but if that's the case you sample grineer would be getting like 10x the HP. This isn't an improvement, this is just making armor stripping less good and basically giving you less tools for dealing with their absurdly high EHP.

So nothing will change. If an enemy had 99% DR and 5000 hp, it would have  500,000 effective HP. So with these changes the DR would be 90% and 50,000 HP to compensate, with the same EHP. So nothing would change, your gas elec strategy would be the same effectiveness even if the numbers would look bigger. This would mostly mean that armor strip is being nerfed, since enemies are going to be tankier without their armor.

[0_The_F00l]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

 

Again my point still stands. 

Why am I building for Armor for the Shield and Health faction? Why are the builds and loadouts being homogenized and pushed to always have Anti-Armor? Doesn't that cheapen the enemy variety of the game, especially with how absurd Armor is at the moment.

I remember someone going

"Why do people only use Viral Corrosive Heat and Slash?"

And the response should always be

"Why does every enemy faction in the game have Armor in them that exponentially jacks up their EHP value?"

Did you not read the whole thing ? Armor is getting a cap , and we don't really know if the enemies will still have Armor for corpus and infested.

Your arguments are in a vaccum which may not be relevant when the actual changes take place.

Edited April 27 by 0_The_F00l

[(PSN)rexis12]

16 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

Remove armor from the game viral still remains the best. Then come Heat and Electric, which you guessed it, can be paired with viral.

Yeah? 

The current Viral that came about due to them changing the initial scaling of armor while at the same time deleting how Corrosive worked, going from full stripn to partial strip, and Viral, which went from halving your health to increasing damage.

This cascaded into the current state of armor being so overturned that other options are ignored, because even with the scaling dropping off, it still had more EHP that people shifting from Corrosive to Viral because that was the new Anti-Armor.

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Did you not read the whole thing ? Armor is getting a cap , 

Your arguments are in a vaccum which may not be relevant when the actual changes take place.

I'm surprised you're saying this when my first post:

4 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

I find it funny that apprently we have now 'encourages' diversity when

Was specifically made to call out the current version of the Armor EHP dwarfing everything and people saying that removing this would remove diversity. 

My point was always about how currently armor was so strong that it overshadowed every thing else and trying to say that it's okay, just homogenized your builds to always have anti armor, reduces gaming diversity. 

I never brought up that they were going to change it. It's always been about the current state and how people say that right now it's fine and encourages diversity instead of the opposite. 

Do YOU get it?